Can we live better lives with religion (response to Transcipt)

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

I didn't need religion to feel a strong sense of empathy and fairness towards my fellow humans and other animals as well. And not having a religion to tell me what to think or believe, I had to think it through on a much deeper level,

I know you have a deep sense of justice for all people, but how deep do your thoughts take you on the subject of forgiveness?

Just over five years ago, at the young age of 62, I believe I was unfairly sacked from my job, of supporting people with a learning disability. Since being sacked, I have gone back to my old place of work hundreds of times, and done around fifteen hundred hours of voluntary work for them. I still come into contact with the people responsible for my demise. Next Friday, I shall go back and do another five hours, next week, I shall go back to my old place of work and voluntarily support two of their residents on a five day holiday. I also take this opportunity to have a break from the internet.

I think you are not giving yourself enough credit. I bet you would have developed your sense of humanity just as well. You would just see it in another context.

I believe the need to overcome anger and forgive, is where we find a profound sense of peace, I believe this can only come in our search for God. Being sacked at 62, pretty much place you on the employment scrapheap, but I found another job the next day. Very strange things kept happening, three people approached me and asked if I needed extra work with them, that has never happened before in my life.

A lady from the company that gave me the sack, came and asked me if I would like to work part time with her at another venue. So I have now been working four and a half years with the company that sacked me, I should have retired a couple of years ago. Sometimes life does not make sense.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people,

Eric

 

[Pygoscelis]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;



I know you have a deep sense of justice for all people, but how deep do your thoughts take you on the subject of forgiveness?

Just over five years ago, at the young age of 62, I believe I was unfairly sacked from my job, of supporting people with a learning disability. Since being sacked, I have gone back to my old place of work hundreds of times, and done around fifteen hundred hours of voluntary work for them. I still come into contact with the people responsible for my demise. Next Friday, I shall go back and do another five hours, next week, I shall go back to my old place of work and voluntarily support two of their residents on a five day holiday. I also take this opportunity to have a break from the internet.



I believe the need to overcome anger and forgive, is where we find a profound sense of peace, I believe this can only come in our search for God. Being sacked at 62, pretty much place you on the employment scrapheap, but I found another job the next day. Very strange things kept happening, three people approached me and asked if I needed extra work with them, that has never happened before in my life.

A lady from the company that gave me the sack, came and asked me if I would like to work part time with her at another venue. So I have now been working four and a half years with the company that sacked me, I should have retired a couple of years ago. Sometimes life does not make sense.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people,

Eric

Well, as I said, you'd just see it in a different context. I had something similar happen last year.

A few years back I had my business partner / boss turn on me and try to ruin me as a lawyer. He tarnished my name with pretty much everybody, telling lies and blaming me for the failures of his inept son. I left thinking I could never practice law again. As it turns out one of his former clients who I had worked with remembered me well and hired me on as in house counsel. It turned into my current job, and the most rewarding job I've ever had. And as it turns out, my former boss who screwed me over was hurting for business and came back to the former client I now work for. We do a ton of business and send it out to various lawyers across Ontario. And it is my job now to decide what goes to who. I could very easily deny my former boss any business and send it all away to others, but I don't. I weigh it based on who I think will handle the particular matter best.

I don't blame Satan or demons or spirits for my former boss trying to ruin me. And I don't praise Gods or spirits of any sort for the new job. You and have had a similar experience and we simply interpret them differently.

 

[*charisma*]

Sorry I didn't go into detail with this thread, but I do think regardless of religion, we all have a conscience. That's just how we are created. Religion comes into play to fine tune our conscience because it's not clear-cut for everyone what they should do and what they shouldn't do, especially when it comes to our desires. A pedophile might know that having sex with a child is wrong, but he bases that on what? Is it because society does not condone it? Is it because law does not allow it? What makes us feel bad about something and not other things? What stops us from convincing ourselves that it's ok to do something wrong once as long as we don't do it again? You could say that someone who doesn't believe in God could still make the right decision, but what if he wants to give in SO badly and knows that there is really nothing that will stop him or punish him for it? What does someone in that situation do? If you don't believe you will be punished for doing something wrong whether here or in the afterlife, what will stop you from doing something you really want to do after your conscience has failed to stop you?

I took a course in criminology and for many individuals religion was rehabilitative for them and kept them away from committing crimes. But to have another human being tell us what is crime-worthy, what is morally wrong/right, what we can or cannot do, should or should not do..makes no sense to me at least. We either choose to live our lives by our own desire, by the laws of the land and the morals of society, or by religion.

 

[Serinity]

Any person with insight will know that Morality doesn't come from us. It comes from Allah SWT.

Cuz if all mankind came together and said "raping teenagers is moral" wouldn't make it moral. So our morals aren't from us, but it is from Allah SWT. It is in our fitrah, which Allah SWT made.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

Well, as I said, you'd just see it in a different context. I had something similar happen last year.

A few years back I had my business partner / boss turn on me and try to ruin me as a lawyer. He tarnished my name with pretty much everybody, telling lies and blaming me for the failures of his inept son. I left thinking I could never practice law again. As it turns out one of his former clients who I had worked with remembered me well and hired me on as in house counsel. It turned into my current job, and the most rewarding job I've ever had. And as it turns out, my former boss who screwed me over was hurting for business and came back to the former client I now work for. We do a ton of business and send it out to various lawyers across Ontario. And it is my job now to decide what goes to who.

I think it is a real test of character, to act fairly with the person who has screwed you over, especially if you find yourself in a position of power over them.

I could very easily deny my former boss any business and send it all away to others, but I don't. I weigh it based on who I think will handle the particular matter best.

This now sounds very much like natural selection, survival of the fittest and sound commercial sense. It is always best to be good to people on the way up the ladder, as we may meet them again should we fall down. This is not to take anything away from what you have done, many people in your position would have enjoyed screwing their former boss over, given the chance.

I don't blame Satan or demons or spirits for my former boss trying to ruin me. And I don't praise Gods or spirits of any sort for the new job. You and have had a similar experience and we simply interpret them differently.

There seem to be many false gods that need worshipping, money, power, lust and greed.

On the subject of the law, I believe the law should be there to protect poor people, but poor people cannot afford the services of lawyers, I wonder how just any law givers can be today.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

 

[Serinity]

The reason why people worship money, lust, and greed is because they ignore God, or deny Him. It is in our Natural state which Allah SWT created us in to Worship Allah SWT. And if you do not fill your heart with The guidance of Allah SWT. you'll deprive yourself and start worshipping false gods, which bring nothing. you stand thereby confused.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Sorry I didn't go into detail with this thread, but I do think regardless of religion, we all have a conscience. That's just how we are created. Religion comes into play to fine tune our conscience because it's not clear-cut for everyone what they should do and what they shouldn't do, especially when it comes to our desires. A pedophile might know that having sex with a child is wrong, but he bases that on what? Is it because society does not condone it? Is it because law does not allow it? What makes us feel bad about something and not other things? What stops us from convincing ourselves that it's ok to do something wrong once as long as we don't do it again? You could say that someone who doesn't believe in God could still make the right decision, but what if he wants to give in SO badly and knows that there is really nothing that will stop him or punish him for it? What does someone in that situation do? If you don't believe you will be punished for doing something wrong whether here or in the afterlife, what will stop you from doing something you really want to do after your conscience has failed to stop you?

I took a course in criminology and for many individuals religion was rehabilitative for them and kept them away from committing crimes. But to have another human being tell us what is crime-worthy, what is morally wrong/right, what we can or cannot do, should or should not do..makes no sense to me at least. We either choose to live our lives by our own desire, by the laws of the land and the morals of society, or by religion.

I can see your point, but I can also see statistics in prison populations (where atheists are slightly UNDER represented, not over represented). I believe that human empathy as well as culture and keeping each other in line is what stops us from socially destructive action (what you would call evil), and I agree with you that if these fail to stop somebody then they are unlikely to be stopped. But I think they are unlikely to be stopped with or without religion. In some cases perhaps religion is something that will help keep people in line, but I think that idea is overplayed. Most often people rationalize their bad behaviour, and if they are religious, they often use religion to authorize it or try to justify it. Religious doctrine is vague enough and conflicting enough that people are able to feel backed by God while doing charity or while sawing off heads.

The real benefit of religious belief is the comfort that it provides. People lean on it for support and it can be quite useful for that. If you feel unloved or unworthy etc, and have no human social support system of friends or family, God is always there for you, loves you, wants a relationship with you, etc. This can comfort both those who do good and those who do bad. That guy who murdered his family will likely become a pariah for it in his community, may have the comfort of believing that God forgives him even if his community doesn't. I know some Christians, for example, that believe that Hitler could be in heaven if only he repented upon his death bed and accepted Jesus as his lord and saviour, etc. They have that get out of guilt and personal responsibility free card the rest of us don't.

 

[*charisma*]

No. Not in the slightest. In face most wars, even "religious wars", are started for non-religious reasons (ie, resources or power etc). Religion just makes them easier to wage and harder to stop. Look at Israel/Palestine conflict. There are factions within both Israel and Palestine that don't want the conflict to end, for selfish reasons, and the conflict has been made impossible to end due to religious reasons. Take religion out of the equation and there MAY be a chance for peace there. Fan the flames of religion and there is little hope for it.

There are many reasons I am not religious, and many reasons why I find most organized religions troublesome, but I'll skip that for now, and go through your post here, as you appear to have put some good effort into it and appear to be writing in good spirit, and you deserve a response.

This is false. The Palestinian/Israeli conflict has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with power. Israelis and Zionists are nonreligious, and I do in fact believe many of them to be atheists. They use religion because laymen would believe it's a religious conflict since there's holy ground there, whereas we know this is just propaganda to hide the fact that the West wants power in the Middle East and the only way to do that is by establishing their own country and supporting the zionists in the middle east.

This isn't true. I have seen numerous studies finding no difference, and others finding atheists to be underrepresented in prisons, but I figure that is because atheism correlates with higher education, wealth and intelligence (an easier life).

You'd imagine that atheists would be FAR more criminal than theists if we are to believe all of the stuff I hear from religious folks about how religion makes them more moral, etc. Some, yes even on this very forum, even tell me that without God you can't be moral. And yet jails are not overflowing with atheists, and all without threats or bribes or obedience to a church or God authority. Being good for the sake of being good: That is true morality.

The justice system is absolutely corrupt. Most of the time it's poverty and lack of practicing a religion that leads people into a life of crime. Poverty-stricken areas may have higher crime rates but that could just be because they are surveillanced more than suburban affluent communities (due to prejudice). So maybe we can't call those people "atheists" because they believe in God, but we can definitely say that whatever caused them to enter jail in the first place was due to immoral actions which is condemned in their religion. So they weren't practicing religion in the first place. Stealing, rape, killing, organized crime, whatever is all condemned in Islam, so if people are going to follow culture, why would any of these things be stopped if in their culture it's normal?

 

[Pygoscelis]

This is false. The Palestinian/Israeli conflict has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with power. Israelis and Zionists are nonreligious, and I do in fact believe many of them to be atheists. They use religion because laymen would believe it's a religious conflict since there's holy ground there, whereas we know this is just propaganda to hide the fact that the West wants power in the Middle East and the only way to do that is by establishing their own country and supporting the zionists in the middle east.

I don't think we are disagreeing here. The creation of Israel after the second world war was political. There are people on both sides of the conflict who fuel the conflict for reasons that are political. But they are able to do it so effectively because of religion. The use religion to push the hatred that each side feels towards the other. It is a great example of tribalism in action.

So maybe we can't call those people "atheists" because they believe in God, but we can definitely say that whatever caused them to enter jail in the first place was due to immoral actions which is condemned in their religion.

Maybe? We definitely can't call people atheists who believe in God. Atheists are people who don't. That is what "atheist" means. That is all that "atheist" means. You don't get to call anybody who does anything that violates your religion or that does something bad an "atheist"... that isn't what atheism is.

And no, we can not definitely say that whatever caused them to enter jail in the first place was actions condemned in their religion. You don't know their religion and one person's Islam or one persons Christianity can be completely different from another. I completely understand that your religion is entirely different than say daesh and that EricH's religion is entirely different than or fred phelps' hateful version of Christianity, but that doesn't make daesh or fred phelps any less religious.

So they weren't practicing religion in the first place.

You don't know that. The best you can say is that they were not practicing YOUR religion, or any other socially constructive one.

Stealing, rape, killing, organized crime, whatever is all condemned in Islam, so if people are going to follow culture, why would any of these things be stopped if in their culture it's normal?

It's normal? It most definitely is not normal to kill, rape, steal, engage in organized crime etc. To say it is normal would be an awfully dismal view of humanity, and the statistics show it to be nowhere near the norm.

 

[Serinity]

It is a false claim to say Religion causes war, hate, killings, and crimes. Humans cause these things, not religion.

Islam forbids killing people, stealing, robbing, raping, etc. Immoral words, etc.

 

[*charisma*]

I don't think we are disagreeing here. The creation of Israel after the second world war was political. There are people on both sides of the conflict who fuel the conflict for reasons that are political. But they are able to do it so effectively because of religion. The use religion to push the hatred that each side feels towards the other. It is a great example of tribalism in action.

Again, religion doesn't have anything to do with it. I don't hate jews because they're Jews. I hate them because they're Zionists. It's actually so ironic that the most liberal middle eastern countries (the levantine) are the ones being attacked. There's really no middle ground when it comes to religion with politicians...it's all about power. Religion doesn't push hatred, it wakes us up. It lets us know that it's ok to fight back if you're being persecuted in your own land, and it gives us hope that if we are killed protecting ourselves and our families that we did not die in vain. It'd be stupid to think otherwise. On what basis can love be established when you're being mercilessly killed, and living in a toxic environment, being tortured in literally every element of your life?? Get outta here with that. Give me alternative to "religion", give me a solution...and maybe you can change my mind. Zionists also don't really push the religious agenda as much as you'd think..they just push anything that works in their favor.

It's normal? It most definitely is not normal to kill, rape, steal, engage in organized crime etc. To say it is normal would be an awfully dismal view of humanity, and the statistics show it to be nowhere near the norm.

Exactly, but what defines normal? it's the lack of moral values/religious practice (abrahamaic) that leads people to do these things until it becomes a part of their enclosed society. What is normal for a gang is not normal in mainstream society. What's normal for prostitutes is not normal in mainstream society. Religion is what defines these values for us, but people often like to choose culture to do so..which then we fall back to people following their desires. So technically there's no set rule for what is normal and acceptable if there is no religion.

Maybe? We definitely can't call people atheists who don't believe in God. That is what "atheist" means. That is all that "atheist" means. You don't get to call anybody who does anything that violates your religion or that does something bad an "atheist"... that isn't what atheism is.

And no, we can not definitely say that whatever caused them to enter jail in the first place was actions condemned in their religion. You don't know their religion and one person's Islam or one persons Christianity can be completely different from another. I completely understand that your religion is entirely different than say daesh and that EricH's religion is entirely different than or fred phelps' hateful version of Christianity, but that doesn't make daesh or fred phelps any less religious.

I did want to clarify that I was referring to the Abrahamic faiths (sorry I thought I was a bit more obvious) and more specifically Islam, because if people did practice them, especially Islam, they wouldn't commit these types of crimes because they are condemned in these religions. I can't say that it's easy to misconstrue what the majority believes in and follows. It only becomes an issue when the individual wants to do evil for himself (selfish reasons) and justifies it with religion so that he can "feel good" about himself, so in essence it's still not a religious issue, it's an individual issue.