Can women talk and recall at the same time according to Islam?

[Nerd]

I am not sure, whether I should share this as am not sure of its authenticity. However as I feel I shouldn't leave any doubts in religious matters uncleared, I will ask: According to the sheik in the video the scientific reason why a single woman cannot stand witness in an Islamic Court is because women cannot talk and remember simultaneously: Here is a link to this video, if its fake please do take it off thank you

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

^i was under the impression that he wasn't giving the reason as to why there is 2 female witnesses, and only 1 male rather i thought he was giving supporting reasons :?

 

[Nerd]

If you have watched the entire video you can see him giving scientific justification as to why only one woman cannot stand as a witness in an Islamic court.

He refers to a study published on American Time magazine on July 31, 1995: which according to him shows that the way in which the brain functions in a man and a woman is different when they speak.

He says that two different areas in the brain of a woman is activated when they speak, meaning that a woman have many centers of speech in the brain unlike a man.
As a result when a woman speaks, she might be using part of the brain that contains memory which deletes the data thus one woman cannot stand witness in an Islamic court.

 

[alcurad]

the verse in question is from 2:282

"O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as God Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord God, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If the party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big-long-: it is juster in the sight of God, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear God; For it is Good that teaches you. And God is well acquainted with all things. If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, let the trustee (faithfully) discharge his trust, and let him Fear his Lord and conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it, - his heart is tainted with sin. And God knoweth all that ye do."

Yusuf Ali's translation.

read the verse within the context of a time when women didn't have much to do with life in general and you'll understand.

not to mention the verse is not general so it can't be taken as an absolute, it specifies the case of writing a loan to payed after a set time, and that case only, thus we can assume quite correctly that women didn't do much trading and loaning at that time hence the ruling, not as some made it that in every case under law a man's worth as a witness equals two women.

 

[Nerd]

But even the first wife of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon Him was a famous trader thus your assumption that women weren't involved in trading/loaning might be completely wrong

 

[alcurad]

a single example is not enough evidence for or against.
in that society, women didn't own much and were at times in certain tribes/areas 'inherited' themselves, ie. treated as property so if her husband died she'd pass on to his relatives. exceptions are to be found, but they are just that.

the first wife of the prophet was a widow of more than one husband as far as I know, some say she inherited from them, also that she was of high birth, which point to her as an exception.

it of course varied from tribe to tribe, also the people of the cities-especially Mecca here, since Khadija was there-are not to be compared to the nomads and so on, as an example take female infanticide which was not wide spread among the Arabs but some tribes were quite known for it.

 

[Nerd]

Can we safely conclude that the correlations made by the Sheik to this study he refers and the verse are incorrect and requires further studies?

 

[alcurad]

indeed, it might have something to do with it in a way or another, but even if completely proven it would not serve as a precedent for making a man equal two women in all legal cases simply based on gender.
in the first place the verse is not general, and history as well as the present are ample proof that women can and do bear responsibility as single witnesses, in the west where this 'research' was conducted no one of importance started asking for what the esteemed shiekh was supporting, despite them being more reliant on and having a greater grasp of science in general.

furthermore the picture showing purported brain activity and the correlations being made are in need of much confirmation, he just showed a picture at that, although I'm not saying he forged them, but if he wishes to use 'scientific' evidence, then he needs to do lot more than showing a picture.,,

 

[Muhaba]

what i want to know is, does the part of the verse which states "such as ye choose, for witnesses" refer to both the male and female witnesses or just the female witnesses.

Also is this word (shuhadaa) feminine as some words in arabic are feminine (like the word thaaifataan which means "two parties") and are referred to with feminine pronouns. See verse 9 of Surah 49 (Al-Hujaraat).

If the word shuhadaa is feminine then can the feminine pronouns in the verse refer to both male and female witnesses just as they do in verse 9 of Surah Al-Hujaraat?

Verse 9 of Surah Al-Hujaraat:

وَإِن طَائِفَتَانِ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ اقْتَتَلُوا فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا فَإِن بَغَتْ إِحْدَاهُمَا عَلَى الْأُخْرَى فَقَاتِلُوا الَّتِي تَبْغِي حَتَّى تَفِيءَ إِلَى أَمْرِ اللَّهِ فَإِن فَاءتْ فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا بِالْعَدْلِ وَأَقْسِطُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ
​

 

[alcurad]

Shuhadaa refers to 'witnesses', and is used for both men and women here. on the other hand the verse does specify the numbers & genders before saying shuhadaa.

it's a good point though, and notice, it doesn't matter if it's men or women, the point of the whole verse other than the specific guidelines is to stress the importance of confirmation and proof, whomever is trustworthy is ok, regardless of being man or women, since gender doe not have a major affect, rather trustworthiness and knowledge of the matter at hand.

at that, you don't even need people to do it, an official document is used nowadays, or maybe a check or even an electronic transmission, and it doesn't usually have any number of witnesses, or say a video that was taken, or any other method, again the verse was referring to a special case, not a general rule.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Didn't people try to prove the earth was flat using the Quran? It's this abuse of science that damages the religion.

 

[thetruth2009]

If you have watched the entire video you can see him giving scientific justification as to why only one woman cannot stand as a witness in an Islamic court.

He refers to a study published on American Time magazine on July 31, 1995: which according to him shows that the way in which the brain functions in a man and a woman is different when they speak.

He says that two different areas in the brain of a woman is activated when they speak, meaning that a woman have many centers of speech in the brain unlike a man.
As a result when a woman speaks, she might be using part of the brain that contains memory which deletes the data thus one woman cannot stand witness in an Islamic court.

Assalam aleykoum Brothers and sisters,

Are you serious when you are saying that a women is not equal of a men about witness ???

Did you read the Quran carefuly, its very sad when I am reading you writing such things, can you imagine women or sisters reading you .

Do you think Allah is not just ? honestly ? did he creat a female equal to men if they go to court ???

I give you a clue about Adam and Eve, Moses and Ibn Al khadir, the story of Youssef :

Quran :

Sourate 20 V 115 and sourate 7 V 19 and

Sourate 18 V 61

Sourate 12 V 42

All you have to look about stories in the quran above its about the memory of men, what happen did they forgot like any woman or not ????

I will prepare the reply in two days inchallah if I am still alive and I try that all what our scholars are saying about witnesses of a women is fals.

May Allah SWT guide us in the right path, because we are living in the very dangerous time.

Only god knows better.

 

[Nerd]

Dear thetruth2009,

My point of inquiry was based on a talk (given in the link I provided you in my original post) in which a Sheik shows so-called scientific evidence why Islamic courts requires more than one woman witness, but as alcurad has made it clear we can see the verse the Sheik refers to was based on a special instant during the time when Quran was revealed on to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

^unless we have some proof as to why it cant be applied in this day and age to, perhaps we should keep our opinions to ourselves...peace

 

[Nerd]

Umm ul-Shaheed are you able to talk and recall simultaneously? The Sheik tried to prove why it was ordained by Allah that two witness are required in that case by pseudo-scientific means, claiming that since two different areas in a woman's brain is activated during speech unlike men they are not able to access memory while talking.

As a Muslim we are only to obey the commandments of Allah. Allah knows the best.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

^
im sorry, i was referring to this post

but as alcurad has made it clear we can see the verse the Sheik refers to was based on a special instant during the time when Quran was revealed on to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

so, whats the problem?

 

[Nerd]

I was under the impression you were in agreement with the Sheik who claimed that women can't talk and recall simultaneously.

Like I have mentioned, its up for Muslims to follow the commandments of Allah Hope that clears any confusion as to what I have written earlier.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

^

I was under the impression you were in agreement with the Sheik who claimed that women can't talk and recall simultaneously.

i don't see what he is saying is wrong? as i said in my first post, i think he was just saying what he did as a supporting claim.
like the verses of human fetal development, for eg where later on a scientist has come long and discovered something which conforms to what Allah was saying...
but of course, either way we should follow the commandments of Allah whether there is a supporting claim or not.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

the verse in question is from 2:282

"O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as God Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord God, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If the party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big-long-: it is juster in the sight of God, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear God; For it is Good that teaches you. And God is well acquainted with all things. If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, let the trustee (faithfully) discharge his trust, and let him Fear his Lord and conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it, - his heart is tainted with sin. And God knoweth all that ye do."

Yusuf Ali's translation.

read the verse within the context of a time when women didn't have much to do with life in general and you'll understand.

not to mention the verse is not general so it can't be taken as an absolute, it specifies the case of writing a loan to payed after a set time, and that case only, thus we can assume quite correctly that women didn't do much trading and loaning at that time hence the ruling, not as some made it that in every case under law a man's worth as a witness equals two women.

On the contrary women had a lot to do in their lives in the early times and history clearly shows this.

Also, do you have any evidence to prove that this verse isn't general and cannot be taken as absolute?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Why is the witness of one man considered to be equal to the witness of two women?
​

Q.Why is the witness of two women considered to be equal to the testimony of one man?

A.Praise be to Allaah.

What is meant by witness or testimony is something by which the thing testified may be proven and known to be true and correct, so it is information about it. With regard to the witness of two women being equal to the testimony of one man. Allaah has mentioned the wisdom behind specifying the number of two as being that a woman may forget or get confused, so the other woman can remind her, as He said:

“…And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her…” [al-Baqarah 2:282 – interpretation of the meaning]

With regard to the phrase, “that if one of them (two women) errs”, Ibn Katheer said: “This means, the two women, if one of them forgets the testimony, then ‘the other can remind her’, i.e., she can remind her about the matter concerning which testimony is being given.” (Tafseer Ibn Katheer, part 1, p. 724)

Allaah has commanded the testimony of two women so as to be sure that they remember, because the mind and memory of two women takes the place of the mind and memory of one man. (See I’laam al-Muwaqqa’een, part 1, p. 75).

This does not mean that a woman does not understand or that she cannot remember things, but she is weaker than man in these aspects – usually. Scientific and specialized studies have shown that men’s minds are more perfect than those of women, and reality and experience bear witness to that. The books of knowledge are the best witness to that; the knowledge which has been transmitted by men and the ahaadeeth which have been memorized by men far outnumber those which have come via women.

This has to do with gender, i.e., the gender of men is more perfect than the gender of women. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allaah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband’s absence what Allaah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity and their husband’s property)” [al-Nisaa’ 4:34]

Nevertheless, there are some women who are far superior to men in their reason and insight, but they are few, and the ruling is based on the majority and the usual cases.

A woman may compensate for her weaknesses by striving hard, and surpass men when they are negligent. Hence we find that in some colleges, female students surpass male students because of their greater efforts and their keenness to succeed when many of the male students are negligent and are not eager to learn. A man may also excel over a woman in some fields that are basically hers, so we find that some of the most skilled chefs, tailors, cosmeticians and obstetricians on the international level are men. The point is that usually – and no wise person would dispute this – most of the prominent people in the religious sciences, such as fiqh, hadeeth, tafseer, ‘aqeedah and preaching, and in the worldly sciences such as medicine, astronomy, engineering, physics, chemistry, etc. are men.

If we think about the western societies in which men and women are regarded as equal in all aspects, we will find that despite that men still prevail. Still, Allaah has given women pre-eminence and has favoured them over men in some aspects, such as caring for children, and showing patience, love and compassion towards them, and managing the home. Hence the sharee’ah gives custody to them, for the mother is the first school, from which the future men, leaders of the world and scholars of the ummah graduate. What virtue can be greater than this?

Islam encourages special care for the mother and her children, and enjoins upon children to honour their mother, treat her kindly and give her preferential treatment above the father. It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: “A man said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, who among the people is most deserving of my good companionship?’ He said, Your mother, then your mother, then your mother, then your father, then those who are closest in order of closeness.’” (Narrated by Muslim, 2548). What greater honour can there be than this?

So let everyone work in his or her field of specialization. Men should not interfere in pregnancy and breastfeeding, and women should not be involved in jihad, fighting the enemy, or holding the positions of khaleefah or ruler. Whatever is permitted to both of them should be done within the guidelines of sharee’ah, such as not allowing free mixing of the sexes and not neglecting other duties such as those of husbands and wives.

And Allaah is the Source of strength.

Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/20051