Child Marriage

[Thinker]

I, personally, would not argue for or against polygamy and I can also see difficulties on agreeing on a number to define the age at which sexual relationships are or are nor appropriate. Both those questions are a matter of culture and opinion. The age or stage of development at which it safe for a female to give birth is not a matter of opinion and should not be a matter of culture because we have sound advice given us by medical science.

When I started this thread I made some presumptions – I said “I presume all the Muslims on this forum would agree that it is wrong to have sexual relations with a girl below a certain age and doubly wrong to endanger her life by making her pregnant.” Reading through some of these posts it appears I was wrong!

What surprises me most is that some females here (who clearly know more about their physical capabilities than I) seek to try and justify putting the well being of a child at risk by suggesting that the age at which it safe for a girl to bear a child is the onset of puberty rather than the completion of puberty. I wonder if they do that because they believe it is more important to follow the sunnah than to protect the well being of young girls (which is exactly what the Muslim leaders in Northern Nigeria are doing).

 

[S_87]

What surprises me most is that some females here (who clearly know more about their physical capabilities than I) seek to try and justify putting the well being of a child at risk by suggesting that the age at which it safe for a girl to bear a child is the onset of puberty rather than the completion of puberty. I wonder if they do that because they believe it is more important to follow the sunnah than to protect the well being of young girls (which is exactly what the Muslim leaders in Northern Nigeria are doing).

put northern nigeria aside for a second and think of your own society. is there such a problem with the well being of the girls?

 

[MO783]

I think this one os for the scholars. Its very hard to say, I would say its very difficult for a young girl to marry to a very early age.

I think people forget that our prophet did marry Hazrat Aisha ra at an early age but did not have any relationship with her until later on.

 

[S_87]

I think people forget that our prophet did marry Hazrat Aisha ra at an early age but did not have any relationship with her until later on.

she was 9....

 

[Thinker]

put northern nigeria aside for a second and think of your own society. is there such a problem with the well being of the girls?

Do two wrongs make a right?

 

[S_87]

Do two wrongs make a right?

Im not going to debate the issue of whether its wrong or right- you said:

I wonder if they do that because they believe it is more important to follow the sunnah than to protect the well being of young girls

the well being is what im interested in

 

[جوري]

I, personally, would not argue for or against polygamy and I can also see difficulties on agreeing on a number to define the age at which sexual relationships are or are nor appropriate. Both those questions are a matter of culture and opinion. The age or stage of development at which it safe for a female to give birth is not a matter of opinion and should not be a matter of culture because we have sound advice given us by medical science.

Giving birth too early or too late is bad it is true.. doesn't change the fact that it happens anyway, even in the west, I have assisted in the delivery of a 13 year old -- you can't really stop them even when passing BCP to them as young as 11 yrs of age

A school in Maine, US, is to make birth control pills available to middle school children as young as 11 through its health centre. According to an Associated Press (AP) report, the decision was made in a school committee meeting earlier this week following a request from the school's health centre to make the pills available to children of high school age who were still attending middle school.
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http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/86051.php

You can't really beat people into not marrying or having children early, even in the 'civilized west' but there are places in the world where the life expectancy is 44 yrs of age, babies having babies is more an economic and social status epidemic than anything.

When I started this thread I made some presumptions – I said “I presume all the Muslims on this forum would agree that it is wrong to have sexual relations with a girl below a certain age and doubly wrong to endanger her life by making her pregnant.” Reading through some of these posts it appears I was wrong!

But you seem to be under the assumption that 'Muslims' or 'westerners' are able to stop it. Which is clearly not the case, in the west they pass BCP, in some parts of the world they impose that you must first marry as a deterrent..

What surprises me most is that some females here (who clearly know more about their physical capabilities than I) seek to try and justify putting the well being of a child at risk by suggesting that the age at which it safe for a girl to bear a child is the onset of puberty rather than the completion of puberty. I wonder if they do that because they believe it is more important to follow the sunnah than to protect the well being of young girls (which is exactly what the Muslim leaders in Northern Nigeria are doing).

There is nothing in Sunna that states marry at onset of puberty in fact I challenge you to bring me such a hadith!


cheers

 

[جوري]

BTW as an addendum now that I read your first post Nigerians aren't Muslim, at least I am not aware that they are!
all the Nigerians I have encountered were Christians!

 

[Thinker]

There is nothing in Sunna that states marry at onset of puberty in fact I challenge you to bring me such a hadith!

I am not sure where the suggestion came from that Islam decrees marriage by a certain age; I have never said that. I think it is unarguable that certain cultures, for cultural and possibly practical reasons decree an early age for the marriage of girls and justify it by pointing to Islamic text and the sunnah.

Regarding the point of onset or end of puberty - I had a quick look for the post and couldn't find it but I am sure that at least one female here suggested that the onset of puberty was the identifying stage at which a girl could marry. I believe that female puberty starts progresses over a period of time and ends. I can't find anything defining the end of puberty but presume it is the point when the metamorphous is complete and without any qualifications believe that would normally be about the age of 18 years.

 

[جوري]

I am not sure where the suggestion came from that Islam decrees marriage by a certain age; I have never said that. I think it is unarguable that certain cultures, for cultural and possibly practical reasons decree an early age for the marriage of girls and justify it by pointing to Islamic text and the sunnah.

It is preferable to marry young, but when you say looking at 'sunnah', well the prophet married a woman 20 yrs his senior, and the others were widowed so there is really no winning in that argument. It isn't a fard that you marry of a certain age. Further I need to clarify that puberty and onset of menses are two very separate categories . Puberty is a process that takes three yrs and involves the pituitary/hypothalamic/ovarian(testicular) axis, now in the case of the female, if she is menstural at 16 that means puberty started for her at age 13.. it wouldn't be appropriate for her from a purely religious standpoint to be married at 13 because she is not of age.. of age means having started mensturation. Naturally I assumed that most people who write here would be aware of the difference. Puberty is a series of steps that ends in a follicle release.

Regarding the point of onset or end of puberty - I had a quick look for the post and couldn't find it but I am sure that at least one female here suggested that the onset of puberty was the identifying stage at which a girl could marry. I believe that female puberty starts progresses over a period of time and ends. I can't find anything defining the end of puberty but presume it is the point when the metamorphous is complete and without any qualifications believe that would normally be about the age of 18 years.

luckily I have already answered this already read my above paragraph.. 'suggested' probably an inference from an unclear explanation. One tends to think that this sort of thing is naturally understood by all as it is taught in fifth grade health class. Puberty involves many steps thelarche, hair growth, darkening of skin etc etc and ending in menarche and that is basically what is being denoted here as the approproate 'starting point' of being married.. but again, no laws enforce marriage at that age.. you can marry of any age!

It is merely the difference between state law or religious law. I don't know what is the law from state to state, whether 14 or 16.. etc.. some people don't menstruate until 16, it wouldn't then be appropriate for them to marry at 13.. I hope that I have made it clearer?

cheers

 

[Q8sobieski]

BTW as an addendum now that I read your first post Nigerians aren't Muslim, at least I am not aware that they are!
all the Nigerians I have encountered were Christians!

There is a north-south split in Nigeria. Northerners are of the Hausa tribe and are mostly Muslim. The states of northern Nigeria live under Shariah Law. The southern Nigerians are Yoruba and Igbo and they are almost always Christian or ... uhhh ... heathen. If you met a Nigerian OUTSIDE of Nigeria; the odds are you met a (Christian) Igbo. They are notoriously mobile both inside and outside Nigeria. The Muslim Hausa are a stay-at-home sort of tribe.

 

[جوري]

Do two wrongs make a right?

Greetings:

I wouldn't personally attach a moral tag to this.. it is unfortunate that it happens, and you'll find that, this indeed happens in all societies. I believe the reason she makes mentions of it, because it is rather odd to point an event that happens in a remote region of the world when it occurs as well in your own backyard

the Question is, is it moral to stop folks from doing what they desire to do? in a not so distant past (in the civilized west) they used to sterilize folks whom the state deemed not fit to be parents (mentally unwell) and such.. to me it is a worst crime to prevent people from a basic need and instinct rather than shrug their shoulder with a disapproving nod


cheers

 

[Whatsthepoint]

the Question is, is it moral to stop folks from doing what they desire to do? in a not so distant past (in the civilized west) they used to sterilize folks whom the state deemed not fit to be parents (mentally unwell) and such.. to me it is a worst crime to prevent people from a basic need and instinct rather than shrug their shoulder with a disapproving nod

I don't suppose you feel the same about homosexuals?

 

[جوري]

I don't suppose you feel the same about homosexuals?

This isn't a homosexual thread?...
further, I feel about all pre-marital and extramarital sex the same way.. Homosexuals have to engage in sex outside of marriage and their marriages aren't recognized by God.. so there is really no point in comparison?


cheers

 

[Hamayun]

I don't suppose you feel the same about homosexuals?

I admire your ability to turn any discussion into one about homosexuality... how do you do it? No really?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

This isn't a homosexual thread?...
further, I feel about all pre-marital and extramarital sex the same way.. Homosexuals have to engage in sex outside of marriage and their marriages aren't recognized by God.. so there is really no point in comparison?


cheers

It was just a question.
Btw, that french thing was an advice not an insult.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I admire your ability to turn any discussion into one about homosexuality... how do you do it? No really?

It takes years of practice.

 

[جوري]

It was just a question.

My entire view here is within the confines of marriage.. and in Islam marriage has to be a woman's decision, outside of her consent is considered null -- thus there can be no doubt when it comes to the concept of morality.. Do I approve of an 11 year old using BCP no, if she is ready for the responsibilities of sex, she is ready for the responsibilities of marriage.. what marriage does is not only make this an impossibility in the sense again of religious duties as one of the conditions of marriage is financial independence a dowry of her choosing as well in case of a divorce in other words if he simply wishes to take her for a ride he'll think twice given the financial burden and above all her consent-- not many 'children' are able to bear that responsibility so they desist all together.. far better than simply passing condoms or BCP hoping they'll use them-- in some places these conditions can be met, thus it is better for them indeed to be married than simply jumping from one bed to the next .. if you look at it entirely from the context of religion, you'll find that it is designed for the best interest of all parties involved especially the woman -- how this all applies to homosexuals is beyond me.. these terms are defined only within the confines of marriage, and again marriage is a contract before God, and God has already defined for us what marriage means.. a contract between man and woman not man & man or woman and woman. what folks wish to do outside of religion has no room in this topic, as I have already defined for you that my morality is shaped by religion not state law (that is to say state law finds gay marriages moral)

Btw, that french thing was an advice not an insult.

I didn't take it as an insult, since I didn't persoanlly write it.. other than that, I don't have a special keys board and getting words to meet with your approval isn't my top priority, I am not a language teacher!

cheers