Christian and Muslim?

[Grace Seeker]

Re: God's Blessings as a Christian

I am a Christian, and don't see myself ever leaving that, but yet, I have always been taught that one aspect of being a Christian is to seek after and follow God's will in one's life. If I am seeking to submit my will to the will of God in my life, in a sense, am I not also a follower of Islam?

If so, why must I leave Christianity to become something else?
If not, why not?


It is true that I view Jesus differently than followers of Muhammad (pbuh) do; but does one need to be a perfect follower of all the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh) to be a follower of Islam?

Again, if so, then how can there be any true followers of Islam, for none of us are perfect?
If not, then what makes where I fail to follow less Islamic than where say a terrorist or non-practicing Muslim fails to follow?

 

[matobosha]

Re: God's Blessings as a Christian

Hallo Grace Seeker,
Your argument is interesting I hope I will manage to answer your queries correctly.
First of all they are many so called religions who beleive in God and Jesus but that doesnt justify them to be a muslim....A muslim is a person who has proclaimed that he beleives in only One God named Allah and he beleives in his prohets including Jesus and Muhammad among others.
Thirdly if he at all beleives there is any other God apart from Allah than he is disqualified as a muslim.....so you cant qualify as a muslim just because they are some issues we all agree...the fact that you beleive Jesus is God disqualifies you automatically from calling yourself a muslim.

Basically a muslim beleives no one is perfect we all amke mistakes even the prophet make mistakes but beleiving in a religion and making mistakes are two different issues which cannot be discussed in one plate.

 

[Paul Williams]

Re: God's Blessings as a Christian

Not to take over the thread, hopefully to add to it, but may I change the question slightly.

I am a Christian, and don't see myself ever leaving that, but yet, I have always been taught that one aspect of being a Christian is to seek after and follow God's will in one's life. If I am seeking to submit my will to the will of God in my life, in a sense, am I not also a follower of Islam?

If so, why must I leave Christianity to become something else?
If not, why not?

It is true that I view Jesus differently than followers of Muhammad (pbuh) do; but does one need to be a perfect follower of all the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh) to be a follower of Islam?

Again, if so, then how can there be any true followers of Islam, for none of us are perfect?
If not, then what makes where I fail to follow less Islamic than where say a terrorist or non-practicing Muslim fails to follow?

Dear Grace Seeker, we have sent each other many posts already, so I don't have much new to say. I think being drawn to Islam is largly an affair if the heart not the head. I was won over to Allahs way before my head had a chance to catch up!

One of the most captivating and profound experiences was (and still is) reading the Qur'an. It is the most extraordinary book. It speaks truth to the deep heart and the mind.

Why not prayfully and reflectively read the Qur'an in a good translation such as Yusuf Ali's? If the experience means nothing to you, fine. Maybe the time is not right yet....

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: God's Blessings as a Christian

Hallo Grace Seeker,
Your argument is interesting I hope I will manage to answer your queries correctly.
First of all they are many so called religions who beleive in God and Jesus but that doesnt justify them to be a muslim....A muslim is a person who has proclaimed that he beleives in only One God named Allah and he beleives in his prohets including Jesus and Muhammad among others.
Thirdly if he at all beleives there is any other God apart from Allah than he is disqualified as a muslim.....so you cant qualify as a muslim just because they are some issues we all agree...the fact that you beleive Jesus is God disqualifies you automatically from calling yourself a muslim.

Basically a muslim beleives no one is perfect we all amke mistakes even the prophet make mistakes but beleiving in a religion and making mistakes are two different issues which cannot be discussed in one plate.

Thank-you for your careful response. If I may, I would like to pick up on your last statement, especially as it applies to my last question.

beleiving in a religion and making mistakes are two different issues

You are so right there. I know of no human being who is a perfect follower of any relgion, for even the most sincere and committed of us make mistakes. However, some do more than make mistakes. Some simply like to go by the name of their religion but make no attempt to even practice it.

For instance, I look at people in my own country who claim to be Christian but have joined hate groups to terrorize anyone who isn't of their skin color or who doesn't think like they do. While these people claim to be Christian, and even confuse some others around the world into thinking that this is what Christians are about, I doubt if Jesus (pbuh) would recognize them as such. And, personally, I have no desire to even be affiliated with them, so I refuse to recognize them as Christian even ithough they claim to be such and carry a cross.

How about in Islam? I have seen people on this board use the term "non-practicing Muslim". Isn't such a term a non-sequitor? That is, it doesn't follow that a person could be both a Muslim and also admittedly not seeking to follow the way of Islam. Such a person has perhaps grown-up in a Muslim household and surrounded by Muslim culture, but if they are a secular person not following the teaching of the Qur'an or the Prophet (pbuh) why even call such a person a Muslim?

From my point of view, I would think it does damage to true Islam in the way that allowing people who are part of the Klu Klux Klan to call themselves Christian does damage to true Christianity.

 

[Skillganon]

Re: God's Blessings as a Christian

Dear Grace Seeker, we have sent each other many posts already, so I don't have much new to say. I think being drawn to Islam is largly an affair if the heart not the head. I was won over to Allahs way before my head had a chance to catch up!

One of the most captivating and profound experiences was (and still is) reading the Qur'an. It is the most extraordinary book. It speaks truth to the deep heart and the mind.

Why not prayfully and reflectively read the Qur'an in a good translation such as Yusuf Ali's? If the experience means nothing to you, fine. Maybe the time is not right yet....

Same for me.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: God's Blessings as a Christian

How about in Islam? I have seen people on this board use the term "non-practicing Muslim". Isn't such a term a non-sequitor? That is, it doesn't follow that a person could be both a Muslim and also admittedly not seeking to follow the way of Islam. Such a person has perhaps grown-up in a Muslim household and surrounded by Muslim culture, but if they are a secular person not following the teaching of the Qur'an or the Prophet (pbuh) why even call such a person a Muslim?

You're right; people who call themselves secular/non-practicing Muslims do not realize the contradiction in terms.

Peace.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Matabosha and others, Grace Seeker's post piqued my curiousity. If to be muslim one must worship the One God and no others, so Christians are out, what about Jews? Isn't it the same God that Jews and Muslims worship?

Could a Jew be a Muslim?

I think that could make some minds explode if so (looking at the conflict in the middle east),

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: God's Blessings as a Christian

You're right; people who call themselves secular/non-practicing Muslims do not realize the contradiction in terms.

Peace.

Thank-you. And peace to you as well. I appreciate your response. The idea just always seemed to sit wrong with me. I'm glad to see that I am not the only one who feels that way.

If I may, I would like to continue to follow-up along that same line with a different observation. At the opposite extreme from those who call themselves secular/non-practicing Muslims, there are also individuals who would view themselves as very devout Muslims, wanting to live Islam as a total way of life, and feel so strongly about it that they go so far as to force their views on others. Now, I can understand when they seek to do this by persuasion, but some seek to do it by force. Now, when one is attacked, I understand that Islam allows one to defend one's self. But it seems to me that there are those who have gone beyond self-defense to actually initiating bloodshed. Of course, if one is so inclined, I suppose it is always possible to, like a child point the finger and say, "He started it.", and thus justify one's actions to one's self. But I just look at all the bloodshed in the world today, either in the name of national sovereignty or religious zeal and wonder who (among all people Muslim, Christian, humanist and others) will stand up and simply say, "Enough, this is not what is meant by seeking peace."

Anyway, I guess that is a long way of stating and asking, it seems to me that it is hard to say these actions are the actions of true followers of Islam, any more than the actions of one who claims to be a non-practicing Muslim can be. I am curious how others might thing about this?

 

[matobosha]

Dear Grace Seeker,

Your argument regarding non practising muslim or even chrisitans should infact not be called as muslims or christian for that matter makes a lot of sense and I do wish to comment as follows:

The muslim can be classified on two titles a muslim and a mumin.
A mumin is the one who believes in Allah and his prophets and who actually practices his belief while a muslim also beleives in the same but may not necessary practice what he beleives.

In the Quran Allah has promised that only the mumin are guaranteed to go to heaven and the Prophet Muhammad said in one of the hadith that the major difference between a muslim and a non muslim is the one who practice it.

So whether a person is called a muslim or not is not a big issue but what are his perfomance indicators in the religion is the issue..if you remain a muslim by name only even if we call you a sheikh it will not help you anything.

 

[matobosha]

Regarding the jews there could be more similarities in what they beleive and what we do but still they cannot be called muslims simply because they do not beleive in it and its principal.In short Islam is for anyone and everyone who beleives in its principals irrespective of there race whether a jew an indian or a black african man for that matter.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Thank-you, matobosha, that information is very helpful. I had not previously heard about the concept of mumin. Can you explain more?

Is the conflict between Sunni and Shi'a in Iraq because they are Muslim, but not Mumin? Or is it something else entirely?

 

[mariam.]

Peace be upon who follow the truth and seek for it :
I am a new member here .. From middel east
I read this post .. And I love this superior conversation between the members
And I have nothing to write .. But I have a note
The conflict between us and jew.. isn't a conflict between religions
It's conflict between the landowner (palestinian) and who violate this land (israeli) .
That's the truth that coming in the western media distorted .. To make you hate this merciful religion with out free will ..and I want you to know a point.. in palestin not only the muslems fight, there..the muslems and christian togather fight like brothers to protect there home palestine
sorry for lengthiness .. peace

 

[Malaikah]

Thank-you, matobosha, that information is very helpful. I had not previously heard about the concept of mumin. Can you explain more?

A mu'min is basically a Muslim who has attained a higher level faith, so they are better Muslims than someone who is just a Muslim. All Mu'mins are Muslims but not all Muslims are Mu'mins. But just because you arent a Mu'min doesnt mean your not a Muslim. Make sense? (This is actually a very confusing topic I myself dont understand the finer details).

After Mu'mins you have Muhsins who are at the highes level of faith and awarness of God.

Is the conflict between Sunni and Shi'a in Iraq because they are Muslim, but not Mumin? Or is it something else entirely?

No, lol not at all. Thats sectarianism! in short- forming new sects is bad (sinful), but being a Muslim and not a Mu'min is not some something bad or sinful.

 

[snakelegs]

Matabosha and others, Grace Seeker's post piqued my curiousity. If to be muslim one must worship the One God and no others, so Christians are out, what about Jews? Isn't it the same God that Jews and Muslims worship?

Could a Jew be a Muslim?

i asked this same question on this thread, so for some answers to this question you might want to check out
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-beliefs/32763-stay-away-shirk.html?highlight=shirk

 

[matobosha]

Dear Grace Seeker,

The difference between Mumin and a muslim as I said earlier is due to differences in practising the religion however the shia- sunni issue is a different ball game.
Islam reached us today globally thro different scholars who understood and interpreted Quran differently from one generation to another and in the process some sects emerged where all beleived to be Muslims but differed on some issues as far as practyising the religion is concern.
This is where groups like shia,sunni,shafi,hanafi and malik emerged.
All these groups claim to be the true follwers of Islam but Aisha one of the prophets wife said that the prophet life was Islam...so whoever follows his way then he is following Islam.
My knowledge is limited to know which one is the correct sect to follow and which one is not

Allah knows best.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Dear Grace Seeker,

The difference between Mumin and a muslim as I said earlier is due to differences in practising the religion however the shia- sunni issue is a different ball game.
Islam reached us today globally thro different scholars who understood and interpreted Quran differently from one generation to another and in the process some sects emerged where all beleived to be Muslims but differed on some issues as far as practyising the religion is concern.
This is where groups like shia,sunni,shafi,hanafi and malik emerged.
All these groups claim to be the true follwers of Islam but Aisha one of the prophets wife said that the prophet life was Islam...so whoever follows his way then he is following Islam.
My knowledge is limited to know which one is the correct sect to follow and which one is not

Allah knows best.

I thank both you and Malaikah for you answers. But I am now more confused than before. I am having trouble understanding how and why Muslims attack each other. (I don't understand it when Christians do either, btw.) It would seem to me that to be Muslim is to practice Islam. And the practice of Islam is to surrender one's self to God. Unless one is attacked, that then leads one in a way of peace. But, what I see in much of the world is anything but peace. And I don't see anyone really wanting to even try to stop. Thus my question is maybe they are not practicing Muslims. But know you say they are Muslims, just not Mumin. So, in essence you are saying that one does not have to practice Islam to be Muslim -- or at least it seems that way to me. I await greater clarification.

 

[Les_Nubian]

To Grace Seeker:

Well, to truly embrace Islam, one would have to believe in the existence of God (Allah) without any partners. Such as the "holy spirit" with the son somehow creating one triune God.

So in that sense of Christianity, where you're actually WORSHIPPING Christ, it might be a little weird.

But in the sense of "Christianity" where you recognize Jesus Christ as a great prophet of God, and you follow Jesus's teachings, then that's great! I mean, that fits right in with "Islam"!

 

[Grace Seeker]

To Grace Seeker:

Well, to truly embrace Islam, one would have to believe in the existence of God (Allah) without any partners. Such as the "holy spirit" with the son somehow creating one triune God.

So in that sense of Christianity, where you're actually WORSHIPPING Christ, it might be a little weird.

But in the sense of "Christianity" where you recognize Jesus Christ as a great prophet of God, and you follow Jesus's teachings, then that's great! I mean, that fits right in with "Islam"!

OK. Les, thanks for your opinion, but you didn't even come close to addressing the question I was asking which was not about Christianity at all, or it's relationship with Islam. What it was about was practicing Muslim vs. non-practicing Muslims and the increasing Muslim on Muslim violence we are seeing in the world.

Should people who behave as some of these folks do, acting violently toward incocent Muslim civilians, even have the term Muslim used in reference to them (even though they claim to carry out these terrible activities in the name of Allah), as what they do seems to go entirely against Islamic beliefs?

 

[Grace Seeker]

To Grace Seeker:

Well, to truly embrace Islam, one would have to believe in the existence of God (Allah) without any partners. Such as the "holy spirit" with the son somehow creating one triune God.

So in that sense of Christianity, where you're actually WORSHIPPING Christ, it might be a little weird.

But in the sense of "Christianity" where you recognize Jesus Christ as a great prophet of God, and you follow Jesus's teachings, then that's great! I mean, that fits right in with "Islam"!

Les-Nuban, I see that you were of course addressing my opening post in this thread. Thank-you. I guess right now I am just wrapped up in world events and trying to figure out this other issue which came up mid-way through this thread. I appreciate your thoughtful response to my first question. Any thoughts on this latter one?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I thank both you and Malaikah for you answers. But I am now more confused than before. I am having trouble understanding how and why Muslims attack each other. (I don't understand it when Christians do either, btw.) It would seem to me that to be Muslim is to practice Islam. And the practice of Islam is to surrender one's self to God. Unless one is attacked, that then leads one in a way of peace. But, what I see in much of the world is anything but peace. And I don't see anyone really wanting to even try to stop. Thus my question is maybe they are not practicing Muslims. But know you say they are Muslims, just not Mumin. So, in essence you are saying that one does not have to practice Islam to be Muslim -- or at least it seems that way to me. I await greater clarification.

Well, 6-7 more months of conversations on this board, and I understand the difference between Muslim and Mumin a little better now. But I still don't understand how a person can call himself/herself a Muslim and continue to attack other Muslims. (I'm not talking about Mumins now.) I'm talking about FaTAH and Hamas, or Sunni vs. Shia violence, or a few years ago why Iraq invade Kuwait and attacked Iran, or why PKK Kurds create terror in Turkey. It is as if some of these people have put political goals ahead of their faith. Should such people be recognized as true Muslims? Would it not be wise for the Muslim world to repudiate those who behave this way as behaving non-Islamicly?