Christian Trinity and Muslim's Tauwheed [monotheism] = Same God? A Clarification.

[MuslimCONVERT]

For the longest time I was confused how Muslims were claiming that we worship the same God as the Christians/Jews, seeing as how the Christian's worship Jesus. And for that matter, it was confusing to me even as a Christian [before my conversion to Islam] how it is that as a Christian who believed in the Father/Son/Holy Spirit Triune God, I still considered that the Jews and myself were worshipping the same God...

It was only recently that someone cleared everything up for me, and explained what we mean as Muslims when we say we worship the same God as the Jews and the Christians. I thought I would pass this thought along.

It is basically an issue of semantics. To put it in as simple a way as possible: Muslims, Christians, and Jews all worship the God of Abraham. The problem is we don't like the way the other talks about Him. For example, the Jew says that God did not send Jesus -to which the Christians and Muslims object, and neither did He send Muhammad, -to which the Muslim objects. Also, throughout the Torah, we see a very human concept of God... a God who repents, makes mistakes, is seen, at one point, standing next to a well talking to Himself, and so on... and this sort of anthropomorphism the Muslim does not like to hear considering it an insult to God.

Likewise, neither the Muslim nor the Jew can tolerate the Christian concept of the Trinity, that three persons are one(?) God, or that God became a human being...

And so the main point is, we disagree on what He is, but not who He is... we all agree that He is the One who controls the universe, who made a covenant with Abraham, and so on...

I am, obviously, not expecting some of the controversialists to suddenly jump on the bandwagon and suddenly be okay with saying we all worship the same God. This was simply meant as a clarification as to what we mean when we as Muslims say we worship the same God as the Jews and the Christians.

And May God guide us all closer to the truth.

 

[Muhammad]

Thread Approved.

 

[Keltoi]

I think it is obvious that we worship the same God, and you are correct, the difference is in how we view God's nature. We have very different understandings of how God interacts/interacted with His people. Personally, I think the fact that we worship the same God should lead to more understanding and appreciation of that fact...but of course reality is quite different. The fact that we do worship the same God is the primary reason there is conflict on the issue.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I think it is obvious that we worship the same God, and you are correct, the difference is in how we view God's nature. We have very different understandings of how God interacts/interacted with His people. Personally, I think the fact that we worship the same God should lead to more understanding and appreciation of that fact...but of course reality is quite different. The fact that we do worship the same God is the primary reason there is conflict on the issue.

We understand that theoretically we worship the Almighty BUT and this is a big BUT Hindus also try to worship Allah with a different view

(there is really only 1 higher power anyone can point to). Our job as Muslims consists not only of "understanding" your views but you must

understand that the end result is the same. There is one God. There is one religion. the religion of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Isa, and

Muhammad (pbuaot). Your views are rejected by God himself, how can you expect us to do anything else? Ask one Muslim if they think that

Allah would prefer one religion for humanity or a mishmash of different ones. You shouldn't be surprised at our answer.


We understand your views and respect your right to have them BUT we disagree with them and reject their right to exist.

 

[Keltoi]

We understand that theoretically we worship the Almighty BUT and this is a big BUT Hindus also try to worship Allah with a different view

(there is really only 1 higher power anyone can point to). Our job as Muslims consists not only of "understanding" your views but you must

understand that the end result is the same. There is one God. There is one religion. the religion of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Isa, and

Muhammad (pbuaot). Your views are rejected by God himself, how can you expect us to do anything else? Ask one Muslim if they think that

Allah would prefer one religion for humanity or a mishmash of different ones. You shouldn't be surprised at our answer.


We understand your views and respect your right to have them BUT we disagree with them and reject their right to exist.

Reject their right to exist? I suppose I understand what you're saying, but I personally don't care what others do. I am content with my relationship with Jesus Christ, and outside of sharing that belief with those who also seek a relationship with Christ, I don't really care if Hindus, Muslims, Jews, etc exist. The world is as God allows it to be.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Reject their right to exist? I suppose I understand what you're saying, but I personally don't care what others do. I am content with my relationship with Jesus Christ, and outside of sharing that belief with those who also seek a relationship with Christ, I don't really care if Hindus, Muslims, Jews, etc exist. The world is as God allows it to be.

EXACTLY! Why should a Hindu care if he feels that "connection" or that "relationship" with Brahma? Let me give you a tip here, blind faith is worth nothing in the eyes of God.

 

[Keltoi]

EXACTLY! Why should a Hindu care if he feels that "connection" or that "relationship" with Brahma? Let me give you a tip here, blind faith is worth nothing in the eyes of God.

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean blind faith in God is worth nothing in the eyes of God? Or do you mean blind faith in a god outside of the Abrahamic trio? I would agree that God has no use for faith in other gods besides Him, but faith is the foundation of worship.

Actually, I gather now that you are pointing to my faith in Christ as worth nothing in the eyes of God. Obviously I disagree.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean blind faith in God is worth nothing in the eyes of God? Or do you mean blind faith in a god outside of the Abrahamic trio? I would agree that God has no use for faith in other gods besides Him, but faith is the foundation of worship.

Actually, I gather now that you are pointing to my faith in Christ as worth nothing in the eyes of God. Obviously I disagree.

No you gathered wrong. I am pointing to Blind faith whether it is in a idol or Alllah himself is worth very little. Allah calls us to reflect upon him and worship him without closing our eyes and exalted people who are truly learned.

The Prophet (pbuh) said one learned man is harder on the devil than a thousand ignorant worshippers.

Truth is clear from falsehood so there is no excuse for blind faith.

 

[Keltoi]

No you gathered wrong. I am pointing to Blind faith whether it is in a idol or Alllah himself is worth very little. Allah calls us to reflect upon him and worship him without closing our eyes and exalted people who are truly learned.

The Prophet (pbuh) said one learned man is harder on the devil than a thousand ignorant worshippers.

Truth is clear from falsehood so there is no excuse for blind faith.

Okay...that still leaves the little problem of "truth". I feel I know the truth, you feel you know the truth, and the little cult that worships Druidic elemental spirits think they know the truth. The Qu'ran does not convince me of its divine origin, and I would gather the Bible does not convince you of its accurate description of God's relationship with His people. That leaves a little problem doesn't it?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Actually Keltoi. Now that I reread my posts, I think I have exaggerated nearly everything I have said. I am not trying to trash Christianity. It is a far better alternative to many of the things I have seen. Faith in Allah is worth something but it needs to be faith in the real God to make Him truly happy with our faith.


If I have insulted you, sorry. We are called upon to respect your faith and I feel that I have overstepped my bounds and violated the very laws I claim to be following. I have many Christian friends and am happy for their faith but wish that they would take that final step towards Islam. THAT is the whole point of all of my posts.



By the way, the only way to determine truth would be to debate it in this situation. One of us is wrong, and we would find it out through this.

 

[Keltoi]

Actually Keltoi. Now that I reread my posts, I think I have exaggerated nearly everything I have said. I am not trying to trash Christianity. It is a far better alternative to many of the things I have seen. Faith in Allah is worth something but it needs to be faith in the real God to make Him truly happy with our faith.


If I have insulted you, sorry. We are called upon to respect your faith and I feel that I have overstepped my bounds and violated the very laws I claim to be following. I have many Christian friends and am happy for their faith but wish that they would take that final step towards Islam. THAT is the whole point of all of my posts.

You have not insulted me. I've grown skin of titanium around here.

I understand you wish all to embrace Islam, and that does not bother me. I wish all would give their lives to Christ. That is the nature of religion I suppose. From a personal perspective, I do not believe that all people of other religions outside of Christianity are going to Hell...it is not my place to assume any such thing. I worry about my own salvation.

 

[alcurad]

rather, some need a human-like deity so they can relate to him. In my belief this is the major point of contention.

 

[Grace Seeker]

By the way, the only way to determine truth would be to debate it in this situation. One of us is wrong, and we would find it out through this.

I appreciate your openness to developing friendships outside of Islam and your willingness to respect others faiths even as you invite those same people to accept what you believe to not only be superior, but also true. My concern is with how you say we are to determine truth.

Debating does not determine what is true. Debating is a contest of people matching their skills regarding debating; it only appears to be a contest between truth and error. The likelihood of finding truth through debate is no greater than the likelihood of finding truth through any other contest be it a duel, tug-of-war, or playing tiddly-winks. Of course it is helpful to have knowledge and be skilled in logic, but those things can be employed in the pursuit of error and falsehood, as they have been many times over the course of human history.

There are times that I feel compelled to debate because I see people making what I consider to be false statements or using faulty logic. But I must recognize that doing so in forums such as these is actually a futile exercise, I've never yet found any of those discussions to change minds that are already made up before the conversation starts. And all minds here appear to be predisposed toward or against a given set of beliefs from the beginning. So, have the debate to sharpen your ability to present your one set of beliefs, but don't fool yourself into thinking that such discussion really prove anything to another with an opposing view.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peacebe with you AntiKarateKid;

By the way, the only way to determine truth would be to debate it

If we debate with people who are different to us we might improve our debating skills.

If we care and support people who are different to us, we might improve our caring skills.

The truth will always exist despite all our debating skills, so we might just as well put our energy into caring for each other, despite our differences.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship.

Eric

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings and peacebe with you AntiKarateKid;

If we debate with people who are different to us we might improve our debating skills.

If we care and support people who are different to us, we might improve our caring skills.

The truth will always exist despite all our debating skills, so we might just as well put our energy into caring for each other, despite our differences.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship.

Eric

The truth may always exist but people may not realize it.
For example, say people all of a sudden started comparing eating the Eucharist to cannibalism. You as a Christian may want to refute those claims and put some energy into that too. I know that some debates are trivial but some are very important and to see two respected intellectuals put their arguments for all too see and hopefully for one idea to emerge is the meaning of a true debate. I have heard of people who have converted once the facts are laid out for them and both views are side by side.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid;

By the way, the only way to determine truth would be to debate it.

That’s a tricky stance to take, just suppose for a moment that I am a far better debater than you are, would that make the prophet pbuh. Wrong?

If you are a better debater than me does that make Jesus wrong?

In the spirit of striving to find ways to live with our differences.

Eric

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid;


That’s a tricky stance to take, just suppose for a moment that I am a far better debater than you are, would that make the prophet pbuh. Wrong?

If you are a better debater than me does that make Jesus wrong?

In the spirit of striving to find ways to live with our differences.

Eric

I truly believe that if I knew all the facts about what we were debating about, I would win. Truth cannot be budged by falsehood. Yet if I had no clue about what we were debating, you would seem to win.


Debating skill cannot mask the content of debate.

 

[coddles76]

No Need for debate, Just let the Almighty settle the issue right hear and now.....

Have you not seen those who have been given a portion of the Scripture? They are being invited to the Book of Allah to settle their dispute, then a party of them turn away, and they are averse. (Aali Imran 3:23)

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Exceed not the limits in your religion (by believing in something) other than the truth, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray in times gone by, and who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the Right Path." (Al-Ma'idah 5:77)

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims." (Aali Imran 3:64)

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Allah has spoken the truth; follow the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham) Hanifa (Islamic Monotheism, i.e. he used to worship Allah Alone), and he was not of Al-Mushrikun." (See V:2:105) (Aali Imran 3:95)

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?" (Aali Imran 3:71)

O you who believe [in Musa (Moses) (i.e. Jews) and 'Iesa (Jesus) (i.e. Christians)]! Fear Allah, and believe too in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), He will give you a double portion of His Mercy, and He will give you a light by which you shall walk (straight), and He will forgive you. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Al-Hadid 57:28)

Say (O Muhammad SAW) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing (as regards guidance) till you act according to the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Qur'an)." Verily, that which has been sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve. (Al-Ma'idah 5:68)

 

[Keltoi]

No Need for debate, Just let the Almighty settle the issue right hear and now.....

Have you not seen those who have been given a portion of the Scripture? They are being invited to the Book of Allah to settle their dispute, then a party of them turn away, and they are averse. (Aali Imran 3:23)

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Exceed not the limits in your religion (by believing in something) other than the truth, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray in times gone by, and who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the Right Path." (Al-Ma'idah 5:77)

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims." (Aali Imran 3:64)

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Allah has spoken the truth; follow the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham) Hanifa (Islamic Monotheism, i.e. he used to worship Allah Alone), and he was not of Al-Mushrikun." (See V:2:105) (Aali Imran 3:95)

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?" (Aali Imran 3:71)

O you who believe [in Musa (Moses) (i.e. Jews) and 'Iesa (Jesus) (i.e. Christians)]! Fear Allah, and believe too in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), He will give you a double portion of His Mercy, and He will give you a light by which you shall walk (straight), and He will forgive you. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Al-Hadid 57:28)

Say (O Muhammad SAW) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing (as regards guidance) till you act according to the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Qur'an)." Verily, that which has been sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve. (Al-Ma'idah 5:68)

If I thought that those verses were actually the words of God it might make a difference, but obviously I don't. Quoting the Qu'ran as evidence makes sense to you, but it doesn't make sense to a non-Muslim. If I quoted Christ from the New Testament would it matter to you?

 

[coddles76]

If I thought that those verses were actually the words of God it might make a difference, but obviously I don't. Quoting the Qu'ran as evidence makes sense to you, but it doesn't make sense to a non-Muslim. If I quoted Christ from the New Testament would it matter to you?

Allah SWT speaks to you again and asks you some questions to reflect upon...

O people of the Scripture! (Jews and Christians): "Why do you disbelieve in the Ayat of Allah, [the Verses about Prophet Muhammad SAW present in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] while you (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth in your own books)." (Aali Imran 3:70)

Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you reject the Ayat of Allah (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) while Allah is Witness to what you do?" (Aali Imran 3:98)