Christian Trinity and Muslim's Tauwheed [monotheism] = Same God? A Clarification.

Greetings and peace be with you all,

The same God hears all our prayers, so why would the same God seemingly give each of us sincere, yet opposing beliefs?

Who can know the mind of God?

Romans 11

33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"[k]
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen


In the spirit of searching for the merciful and loving God of alll mankind.

Eric
 
Greetings and peace be with you all,

The same God hears all our prayers, so why would the same God seemingly give each of us sincere, yet opposing beliefs?

Who can know the mind of God?



In the spirit of searching for the merciful and loving God of alll mankind.

Eric

He Didn't the freethinking MAN did. He gave us ONE law and ONE way of life.

"Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam (Submission). Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account. (Aali Imran 3:19)"
 
So John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Is meaning that God came to earth incarnate, walked along, talked, preached, gave some miracles then sacfrificed himself on the cross because of there human sins and didn't listen to him.
I agree, coddles.
It truly must be one of the most amazing, perhaps even unbelievable stories ever told!
Why would God be willing to redeem the human race, which is so clearly unable to save itself by deeds alone?
Why would he do so through his own sacrifice?
We neither asked for such grace, nor do we deserve it!
But why doubt that God is able and willing to do such a thing?
God is who he is, and he does what he does. Who are we to question him? Who are we to be so proud that we think we can fathom him?

"Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam (Submission). Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account. (Aali Imran 3:19)"
You see, just like people have the freedom to choose Islam as their path, so they have the freedom to choose a deeper relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
How amazing is that??! :)

As for the OP, I personally have no doubt that Muslims and Christians worship the same God ... even if our understanding of God is different - in some areas so much so that it doesn't seem like the same deity at all.
Yet, the God of Abraham is only ONE God.
Muslims worship him, Christians worship him. He is one and the same.

What do you think?

As to which worship God accepts (be that only one, both or neither) is not for us to decide. It is up to God's will, not to ours.
May none of us be so proud to assume that we are in God's favour! :-[

As my Muslims friends here say so beautifully:
God knows best. :statisfie

Salaam
 
I agree, coddles.
It truly must be one of the most amazing, perhaps even unbelievable stories ever told!
Why would God be willing to redeem the human race, which is so clearly unable to save itself by deeds alone?
Why would he do so through his own sacrifice?
We neither asked for such grace, nor do we deserve it!
But why doubt that God is able and willing to do such a thing?
God is who he is, and he does what he does. Who are we to question him? Who are we to be so proud that we think we can fathom him?


You see, just like people have the freedom to choose Islam as their path, so they have the freedom to choose a deeper relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
How amazing is that??! :)

Thank you Glo I agree its the most amazing stories ever told.
Allah SWT mentions throughout the Whole Quran that he is WAY ABOVE his creation and anything we attribute to him. He describes himself in the highest of manners in the Quran and there is no STORY to be told that can associate to him because he is WAY ABOVE that. That is what I see as Amazing.

Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, (High is He) above what they attribute to Him! (Al-Anbiya 21:22)

And they (Jews, Christians and pagans) say: Allah has begotten a son (children or offspring). Glory be to Him (Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth, and all surrender with obedience (in worship) to Him. (Al-Baqarah 2:116)

s for the OP, I personally have no doubt that Muslims and Christians worship the same God ... even if our understanding of God is different - in some areas so much so that it doesn't seem like the same deity at all.
Yet, the God of Abraham is only ONE God.
Muslims worship him, Christians worship him. He is one and the same.

What do you think?

As to which worship God accepts (be that only one, both or neither) is not for us to decide. It is up to God's will, not to ours.
May none of us be so proud to assume that we are in God's favour! :-[

As my Muslims friends here say so beautifully:
God knows best. :statisfie

Salaam

Thankyou once again and I agree that the god of Abraham is only ONE god.

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Truly, my Lord has guided me to a Straight Path, a right religion, the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham), Hanifa [i.e. the true Islamic Monotheism - to believe in One God (Allah i.e. to worship none but Allah, Alone)] and he was not of Al-Mushrikun (see V:2:105)." (Al-An'am 6:161)

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims." (Aali Imran 3:64)
 
Actually, I don't know this to be true. I know that many people make this assessment of both Catholic and Orthodox Christians, but I have never meant either a Catholic or an Orthodox Christian who actually thought of Mary as a divine personage. No doubt if you look hard enough for it you will find such, but I don't think that such aberrations are indicative of those two groups on the whole.

I find it quite confusing that many Christians pray to Mary for help, reciting her name on rosary beads, and furthermore venerate her with the title "Mother of God", yet claim that she isn't divine. Though they may not admit it, the reality is that many Christians have made Mary into a god.

GraceSeeker said:
Regarding your final comment: It is true that Christians believe Jesus is the son of God. And as you say, Islam considers this belief a violation of monotheism. My question has to do with the term "begotten", what do you understand is meant by that term? I ask, because I wonder if perhaps Muslims and Christians have different definitions of what it means to say that Jesus is the "begotten" son of God? If so, then don't we need to seek to understand each other's meaning before reject it as being false? So, what is your definition of "begotten" as you understand Christians to apply it to Jesus?

Islam objects to the belief that Jesus is the only begotten son of God, which means that he is divine sharing God's essence. This is what Muslims find to be offensive against the divine unity of Allah. If you study other pagan beliefs, you will find the concept of "begotten sons of God" is very common. Horus, Hercules, Bacchus, Mithra, etc., to name a few pagan deities which were regarded as begotten children of a father-like deity. Although Christianity's version God begetting a son sounds less scandalous, in reality it is the same idea and is completely alien to true monotheism, which is that Allah is One, He does not share His Power or essence, He has no offspring, nor is He the "son" of anyone.
 
Furthermore, don't act like this accusation of Mary worship is new and from Muslims only.
If the Protestant Christians would be honest, they would admit the errors of the Catholic Christians in their worship of Mary and the saints instead of defending them. No Protestant prays to either Mary or the saints, nor does any Protestant church have a statue of Mary. No Protestant goes to his minister and says, "Father forgive me for I have sinned."

They defend what they don't agree with (it seems to me) because of the "us versus them" mentality. Just like brothers who fight among themselves, they vehemently defend the other when attacked by someone outside the family.
 
its amazing that two different people worship God in two different ways yet claim they worship the same God.

one must recognise God to worship him properly, and until the trinity is dismissed one hasnt recognised God ! Allaah will surely give forms to those worshipped besides him on the day of judgement, and then people will see they worshipped others besides Allaah... may Allaah protect us from it

Ameen
 
The same God hears all our prayers, so why would the same God seemingly give each of us sincere, yet opposing beliefs?
I don't think that other Christians would agree with you that the Muslim faith came from God, but rather from (to quote a prominent LI member) "a third string player who was working for the other side". No Muslim would agree that the Christian faith in the Deity and Sonship of Jesus (as) came from Allah (swt). To be blatantly honest, adherents of both religions think that the other religion was misled from the Plan of Salvation or from the Straight Way by Satan/Shaytan.
 
No the christians main belief is that GOD begot a Son. How does one beget?
Actually that is not the Christian's MAIN belief. Our main belief is that Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected to bring us life.

But let me ask you that question in return. I should be most interested in your answer. As I have expressed elsewhere (earlier in this thread), I tend to think that Muslims have a completely different understanding of what the term "begotten" means in the context in which it is used in the Bible than Christians do. So, please, what do you think it is that Christians mean when we refer to Jesus in the creeds of the church as "begotten, not made" or in those English translations of the Bible that speak of Jesus as God's "only begotten son"?

For if you mean something different by it than what Christians do, then you complaint is not with genuine Christianity, but with some fabricated religion created by Islam that has nothing to do with Christian beliefs afterall.
 
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God is who he is, and he does what he does. Who are we to question him? Who are we to be so proud that we think we can fathom him?
I agree with you here that we can't fathom or comprehend the One God with our finite minds. That is why we rely upon the Qur'an and why you rely upon the Bible (I presume) to tell you the aspects of the One God that we need in order to worship Him or to have a "relationship with Him" from the Christian perspective.
You see, just like people have the freedom to choose Islam as their path, so they have the freedom to choose a deeper relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
How amazing is that??! :)
Yes, there is no compulsion in religion. People have been killed throughout history for being so "stupid" as to adhere to a religion that was contrary to that of those in power, but that same power could never force those people to believe differently.
As for the OP, I personally have no doubt that Muslims and Christians worship the same God ... even if our understanding of God is different - in some areas so much so that it doesn't seem like the same deity at all.
Again I agree. The Christian can't comprehend of God as being distinct and separate from Jesus and the Muslim can't comprehend Jesus as being Allah in the flesh. To the Muslim, Allah is above needing to eat and drink and then relieve Himself (astighfir'Allah) nor can we comprehend Allah being born of a woman and dying an ignoble death. I have always said that I pray to the same God that Jesus did as illustrated by the Lord's Prayer.
As to which worship God accepts (be that only one, both or neither) is not for us to decide. It is up to God's will, not to ours.
May none of us be so proud to assume that we are in God's favour! :-[
...but don't both of us really believe that we know what God's Will is through our respective religions?
As my Muslims friends here say so beautifully:
God knows best. :statisfie

Salaam
Yes, I would agree with that. However, for our own personal lives, I find it imperative to find out and submit to Allah's Will because the consequences of going contrary to the Will of Allah are indeed quite dire.
 
Your argument rests on a very narrow definition of 'god'.
Indeed. I do have a very narrow definition of God, for I believe in and worship only the one God who is creator of heaven and earth, who was incarnate on earth, and who is still an abiding presence in my life today. I know of and worship no other God than this one and only one God who is God of all the universe both seen and unseen.


I recognize that others may in their own minds create other gods of wood or stone, of material possessions or human pride, of love of country or family, of ideologies or philosophies, of ethics or moral codes, even of devotion to what they regard as sacred texts or personages, but none of these things will I recognize as God for their is only one God and that God is greater than anything that can be held in human hands, observed with human eyes or be conceived of in the minds of men or women. And while some may show great devotion to any of these things (including Mary, the holy scriptures of various religions, or any of many other various idols) they are not God, and just as one can be devoted to family, clan, or nation without worshipping it, so I can understand how some might express devotion to an individual like Mary without me feeling a need to accuse them of worshipping her.

I find it quite confusing that many Christians pray to Mary for help, reciting her name on rosary beads, and furthermore venerate her with the title "Mother of God", yet claim that she isn't divine. Though they may not admit it, the reality is that many Christians have made Mary into a god.

Do I feel that such devotion can tend toward excess? Yes. Could such excess lead one beyond mere devotion to something akin to worship? Without question. Has any person ever done this? No doubt.

I agree that there probably are Christians, especially some Catholic Christians, who have made Mary into a god, but I will not label the whole of the Catholic faith as worshippers of Mary because of the exuberance of a few, or even of many, individuals within it. I accept them at their word that they worship God, not God's creatures and Mary is included among those creatures.

In the teaching of the Cathecism of the Catholic Church it speaks first, foremost, and only of "the central role of Christ in our hope and in our life." Catholicism, like all of Christianity, is a Christ-centered faith. Is Mary important to Catholics? Most certainly, but what the Cathecism teaches regarding Mary is summed up in the opening sentence in the chapter that discusses her: "Everything faith teaches us about Mary is intended to draw us nearer to Jesus." With you, I happen to think that Catholics make too much about Mary, but I do understand that however venerated she may appear to be, and however much some (even many) within the Catholic Church may go overboard in their devotion, that Jesus and not Mary is the intended object of their worship.

Indeed, the Cathecism of the Catholic Church specifically says, "it would be wrong to say that it is absolutely necessary to be devoted to Mary in order to be saved." That is the essential aspect which we must remember. Catholicism embraces Mary, but it does not need Mary for Mary is not their god. For all the devotion to Mary, the emphasis remains focused on Jesus (at least for those who are good Catholics and have not corrupted the teachings of the Catholic Church to produce some sort of hybrid that perhaps does fall into the trap of excessive devotion that slips over into some unCatholic concept that mistakenly includes treating Mary as divine). Yes, Catholics see Mary as having an ability to make special intercession. And I understand you consider that concept shirk, but that you consider it shirk does not make it true that Catholics understand it as worship. (Additionally, I am still unconvinced that I see any significant difference between this view that Catholics have a Mary interceeding for them, and the Muslim concept of Muhammad making intercession for followers of Islam on the judgment day. But that is for another discussion.) But the Catholic understanding of the purpose for that intercession again is Christ-centric, not Mary-centric; Catholics understand Mary's intercession as "a valuable opportunity for grace to grow in Christ." And immediately after the Cathecism speak of the special devotion that Catholics have to Mary, the reminds the Catholic reader "devotion to Mary, of course, differes essentially fromt he cult of adoration whioch is given to God alone. Though Mary has sublime dignity as the Mother of God [read that as God-bearer, not biological generator], she is a fellow creature.... Personal devotion to Mary ought to imitate the patterns found in the Church's liturgy, in its joyful worship of God...in which the honoring of Mary leads us to a warmer love of her Son."

If the prayers you cited are not understood in the light of the above teachings, then you simply have not rightly understood Catholic theology and teaching regarding Mary, nor even the specific prayers you have cited.



As far as a Muslim is concerned, I belong to God not Mary and ask God to guide me and my property and possession.
The same is true for me as a Christian. Indeed, here is a prayer that I regularly pray:
I am no longer my own, but thine.
Put me to what thou wilt, rank me with whom thou wilt.
Put me to doing, put me to suffering.
Let me be employed for thee or laid aside for thee,
exalted for thee or brought low for thee.
Let me be full, let me be empty.
Let me have all things, let me have nothing.
I freely and heartily yield all things to thy pleasure and disposal.
And now, O glorious and blessed God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
thou art mine, and I am thine.
So be it.
And the covenant which I have made on earth,
let it be ratified in heaven.
Amen.


Furthermore, don't act like this accusation of Mary worship is new and from Muslims only.
I was not. I fully understand that there are many Protestant Christians who would make these same accusations. I think they are mistaken as well, and for the very same reasons.
 
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And they (Jews, Christians and pagans) say: Allah has begotten a son (children or offspring). Glory be to Him (Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth, and all surrender with obedience (in worship) to Him. (Al-Baqarah 2:116)
I remind you what you yourself reminded us only a short time ago in this very thread. The parts in parentheses are NOT in the Qur'an, they are commentary made by the translator. I will submit to you that the comments which interpret Christians to say that Allah has begotten a son means children or offspring, do not accurately reflect the reality of Christian teaching. This is why I have put the question forth, repeatedly asking, what it is that Muslims think Christians mean by saying that Jesus is "begotten"? Hint: It does NOT mean offspring as this interpreter mistakenly implies.

In fact, should you ever understand the concept of generation that is being employed in the Christian understanding of this term, you would also understand that Christian theology does NOT actually violate the idea expressed in this verse.
Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims." (Aali Imran 3:64)[/QUOTE] I submit to you that those who think the story of Jesus' incarnation violates this passage do not yet understand the message of incarnation, but are tilting at windmills.
 
To the Muslim, Allah is above needing to eat and drink and then relieve Himself (astighfir'Allah) nor can we comprehend Allah being born of a woman and dying an ignoble death.
I can't comprehend of a god "needing" to do these things either. Can the Muslim consider the possibility that the great God who created the universe (for he certainly didn't "need" to do that either) might nevertheless "choose" to do them?
 
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If the Protestant Christians would be honest, they would admit the errors of the Catholic Christians in their worship of Mary and the saints instead of defending them. No Protestant prays to either Mary or the saints, nor does any Protestant church have a statue of Mary. No Protestant goes to his minister and says, "Father forgive me for I have sinned."

They defend what they don't agree with (it seems to me) because of the "us versus them" mentality. Just like brothers who fight among themselves, they vehemently defend the other when attacked by someone outside the family.

I don't believe it is a matter of "defending" Catholics. The issue is what does the Catholic Church believe? How would a Catholic describe his or her faith?
Martin Luther spoke very clearly about his perspective on Roman Catholic Mariology:

Furthermore, how will you endure [the Romanists'] terrible idolatries? It was not enough that they venerated the saints and praised God in them, but they actually made them into gods. They put that noble child, the mother Mary, right into the place of Christ. They fashioned Christ into a judge and thus devised a tyrant for anguished consciences, so that all comfort and confidence was transferred from Christ to Mary, and then everyone turned from Christ to his particular saint. Can anyone deny this? Is it not true?"
Martin Luther

John Calvin even went so far as to order all paintings and statues of Mary to be burned or destroyed in Geneva. That was in 1535 I believe. The Cathechism of Calvin outlawed Marian veneration and also punished people for carrying rosaries, observing a saints day, and the possession of holy relics.

So Protestants do indeed disagree with Roman Catholics on this issue. Primarily because the role of the Comforter and Redeemer seems to have been placed not on Christ but Mary. However, in the context of this discussion, the issue is whether Catholics "worship" Mary. That is obviously not their doctrine. That is my only defense of Catholics on this issue. I and other Protestants may not agree with some of the more traditional practices within Catholicism, but on the fundamental areas of doctrine we are in agreement.
 
Indeed. I do have a very narrow definition of God, for I believe in and worship only the one God who is creator of heaven and earth, who was incarnate on earth, and who is still an abiding presence in my life today. I know of and worship no other God than this one and only one God who is God of all the universe both seen and unseen.


Words such as these need to be translated into action. Again, before writing a declaration of faith, it would help to actually read what I said. We were discussing what "god" NOT "GOD" the Quran was referring to. Your argument about the literary usage of the word "god" in that verse of the Quran fails because it is narrow. Now, onto what "God" we believe in, yes that is narrow which is why in Islam it excludes the Prophet Isa (pbuh) and the Holy spirit.

You may say that you worship God but think about it. Hindus may say they worship the one person they think created the universe. You with Jesus/Holy Spirit/ Father may SAY that you worship the one creator but again words have to be translated into action. Allah is Allah who is one and not 3 in one etc etc.


Onto the main topic. Your prayers clearly show a worship - esque attitude toward Mary. Adoration or veneration of her DOES NOT INCLUDE asking for forgiveness or asking for her to protect you or stating that you are hers. SHe herself offered herself to God and you are offering yourself to her.

Your words are not matching with your beliefs no matter how you cut it. I suggest, if I may be so bold, taking another look at your prayers and ask yourself if they are directed toward whom you want them to be directed.

Your own prayers are so misleading that other Christians and faiths have accused you of venerating Gods followers instead of Him. That is something to think about. Indeed even your own people spend more time praying to patron saint of X and Mary when what they pray for lay with God alone.

That is prayer to Gods servants not him no matter which way you cut it. Even if your doctrine may want to state otherwise, your prayers are self evident in their nature.
 
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However, in the context of this discussion, the issue is whether Catholics "worship" Mary. That is obviously not their doctrine.
I agree with you that Catholics don't see that what they do as being worshipping Mary or the saints, but what matters is how Allah sees it. On that we will just have to "wait and see" come Judgment Day. On that Day we will also know if Jesus was God in the flesh or if he was just a human with no Divinity.
 
What about "Hail Mary full of grace etc..."? Isn't that classed as worship? That's how I took it as a little girl when I was in church. We'd also say it every morning in assemberly. We mentioned Mary and Jesus (peace be upon them) more than God.
 
I agree with you that Catholics don't see that what they do as being worshipping Mary or the saints, but what matters is how Allah sees it. On that we will just have to "wait and see" come Judgment Day. On that Day we will also know if Jesus was God in the flesh or if he was just a human with no Divinity.
But what is the point of Jesus telling them he never told them to worship Mary as a god (which he didn't according to the the Bible), even though they believe otherwise.
Wouldn't it make more sense for Jesus to tell them that they did worship Mary?
 
What about "Hail Mary full of grace etc..."? Isn't that classed as worship? That's how I took it as a little girl when I was in church. We'd also say it every morning in assemberly. We mentioned Mary and Jesus (peace be upon them) more than God.
I am not a Catholic, but here is the full prayer you refer to:
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Does it really sound like worship to you?
Or does it not just speak about Mary in revered and respectful tones - not unlike the Qu'ran speaks about her?

This prayer isn't a worship of Mary, but instead asks Mary to intercede to God for the person praying.

We have had discussions on this topic very recently in the 'Questions for Christians' thread, if you want to check there.
Christians believe that we can address God in prayer directly, but Catholics also ask saints to plead to God on their behalf. It would probably be better if we had a Catholic here who could explain better the reason for this tradition.

Whatever we may think of the concept of going through a saint as an intercessor, rather than addressing God directly, this practice does not constitute the worship of Mary.
If you were left with that impression as a child, you were either misinformed or not correctly instructed.

The word "'hail' literally has the meaning "Rejoice", "Be glad". This was the normal greeting in the language in which Saint Luke's Gospel is written and continues to be used in the same sense in Modern Greek."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hail_Mary
 
This prayer isn't a worship of Mary, but instead asks Mary to intercede to God for the person praying.

Intercede? That is the key word. So, in asking Mary to help... you cannot ask God directly? I'm just curious. No priest could ever offer me a decent enough answer. That's why Islam made so much sense to me. One God. The One to ask for help. So simple. So easy. So beautiful.
 

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