Christian Trinity and Muslim's Tauwheed [monotheism] = Same God? A Clarification.

[AhlaamBella]

God had demanded atonement for sin since the beginning, starting with Genesis. As a God of justice, He cannot simply ignore sin and pretend it doesn't exist or that it isn't an offense to Him. God doesn't "need" sacrifice as atonement, but that is indeed what He prescribed to the Jewish people as atonement for sin. Only a perfect sacrifice could achieve forgiveness for the sins of the entire world. The ultimate atonement.

Shouldn't each individual pay for his sins? Or ask for forgiveness?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

God had demanded atonement for sin since the beginning, starting with Genesis. As a God of justice, He cannot simply ignore sin and pretend it doesn't exist or that it isn't an offense to Him. God doesn't "need" sacrifice as atonement, but that is indeed what He prescribed to the Jewish people as atonement for sin. Only a perfect sacrifice could achieve forgiveness for the sins of the entire world. The ultimate atonement.

He prescribed it purely as a sign of piety. The act has nothing AT ALL to do with the actually act of forgiveness which lay in Allah's hands. Sacrificing a man/god for our sins does not follow from the act of showing piety by sacrificing a lamb/etc and those who believe in such scapegoats are in error.

[22:37] Neither their meat, nor their blood reaches GOD. What reaches Him is your righteousness. He has subdued them for you, that you may show your appreciation by glorifying GOD for guiding you. Give good news to the charitable.

 

[Keltoi]

He prescribed it purely as a sign of piety. The act has nothing AT ALL to do with the actually act of forgiveness which lay in Allah's hands. Sacrificing a man/god for our sins does not follow from the act of showing piety by sacrificing a lamb/etc and those who believe in such scapegoats are in error.

[22:37] Neither their meat, nor their blood reaches GOD. What reaches Him is your righteousness. He has subdued them for you, that you may show your appreciation by glorifying GOD for guiding you. Give good news to the charitable.

Actually you are incorrect.

'Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offerings, and the priest shall offer them up in smoke on the altar, on the offerings by fire to the LORD. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin which he has committed, and he will be forgiven. Leviticus 4:35

And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him. Leviticus 5:10

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Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and choosing from every clean animal and every clean bird, he offered holocausts on the altar.
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3 When the LORD smelled the sweet odor, he said to himself: "Never again will I doom the earth because of man, since the desires of man's heart are evil from the start; nor will I ever again strike down all living beings, as I have done.
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As long as the earth lasts, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, Summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease." Genesis 8:20-22

So, according to the Old Testament your post is in error.

 

[Grace Seeker]

That's another thing I don't get. How is it fair that "God's son" dies for lowly humans' sins? Can a christian please answer

It isn't fair. It is love.

 

[AhlaamBella]

It isn't fair. It is love.

Does humanity really deserve it though? Where is the justice?

 

[Grace Seeker]

We are certainly his preferred creation with many blessings but totally separate. He is full of mercy but doesn't need a sacrifice of his "son who is him at the same time" to forgive. How does he do that without "sacrificing Jesus on the cross for us"?? Use your imagination!!!!!

I am not saying that God could not have done it some other way. I am saying that this is the way that God chose to do it. Nothing wrong with my imagination, for I have not chosen to put God in a box where he can't do something. Nothing wrong with the revelation we have of what God actually did do either.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Does humanity really deserve it though? Where is the justice?

No. Humanity doesn't deserve it. If we got justice we would indeed all (Christian, Muslim would make no difference) to hell. What we receive instead is grace, and a chance to be made right with God again. We don't experience justice. We experience justification.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Shouldn't each individual pay for his sins? Or ask for forgiveness?

A person in debt and without resources cannot do what you ask. But the one to whom the debt is owed can still cancel them or accept another's offering as payment. God cancelled them by making the payment himself.

 

[Grace Seeker]

[22:37] Neither their meat, nor their blood reaches GOD. What reaches Him is your righteousness. He has subdued them for you, that you may show your appreciation by glorifying GOD for guiding you. Give good news to the charitable.

What reaches God is not our righteousness either. What reaches God is the righteousness of Christ substituted for our own unrighteousness.

 

[AhlaamBella]

A person in debt and without resources cannot do what you ask. But the one to whom the debt is owed can still cancel them or accept another's offering as payment. God cancelled them by making the payment himself.

And humans get off scott free =D. Well that's all nice and hunky dory isn't it? *sighs* I am sorry, but I cannot see the justice in a murderer, rapist etc getting away with his sins by the grace of God. And how about those who commit a sin against someone else? Doesn't that person get some sort of justice?

 

[Grace Seeker]

And humans get off scott free =D. Well that's all nice and hunky dory isn't it? *sighs* I am sorry, but I cannot see the justice in a murderer, rapist etc getting away with his sins by the grace of God. And how about those who commit a sin against someone else? Doesn't that person get some sort of justice?

Scott free? I don't call living apart from God, as those who are still dead in their sins are doing, getting off scott free. But you are correct, Christianity considers sin to be sin. A little sin can keep us from God as much as a big one can. And all sins must be redeemed. There is no merit, no good work, that a person can do that would cancel out even the smallest sin, for sin is a falling short from the standards of God perfect holiness. And whether you miss that by an inch or a mile when we fall short we simply don't measure up. It is a test in which the only passing grade is perfection, and I am afraid that none of us are perfect. Given that, we all, murderers, rapists, whatever else you want to throw in there end up with the same judgment passed on us. And likewise we are equally offered the same opportunity for redemption.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

What reaches God is not our righteousness either. What reaches God is the righteousness of Christ substituted for our own unrighteousness.

Substituted huh?

Man A : Strives hard to please God and be righteous? too bad, God wants Christ's righteousness not yours

Man B: Lying thieving scum? It's your lucky day, you get to have Christ's righteousness


I honestly don't know how to respond to this. God wants us to be good but then sends his son down who is actually him in another form to take away our sins and save us with himself from his own wrath.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you RoseGold;

I am sorry, but I cannot see the justice in a murderer, rapist etc getting away with his sins by the grace of God. And how about those who commit a sin against someone else? Doesn't that person get some sort of justice

As I understand it, the same God is also merciful to Muslims who murder and sin, as long as they do not commit shirk.

We do not deserve such a wonderful and merciful God.

In the spirit of praying for God’s mercy for all people,

Eric

 

[MustafaMc]

As I understand it, the same God is also merciful to Muslims who murder and sin, as long as they do not commit shirk.

Actually, we believe that some Muslims will be sent to Hellfire because their bad deeds and sins outweighed their good deeds and acts of worship. While Allah is Merciful with His Forgiveness, He is also Just in His Punishment. We believe that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) will make intercession before Allah on their behalf and they will eventually be released from Hellfire if they did not associate partners with Allah.

We do not deserve such a wonderful and merciful God.

I have great hope in the Mercy of Allah and I pray for His Forgiveness, but at the same time I fear His Wrath for the wrong that I have done both knowingly and unknowingly. While we don't claim to earn Paradise by our good deeds, we do believe that good deeds counteract and erase bad deeds.

 

[Fazl Ahmad]

As I understand it, the same God is also merciful to Muslims who murder and sin, as long as they do not commit shirk.

We do not deserve such a wonderful and merciful God.

How can a government pardon a crime if the criminal does not even recognize the government? Shirk is spiritual treason, and Allah will never forgive those who did not recognize His supreme authority by being devoted to other gods if they died in that state without having repented. If you committed all the sins in the world, Allah will come with an equal amount of mercy to forgive those sins provided you did not associate any partners with Him. Truly Allah is Ghafoorun Raheem (Forgiving and Merciful).

 

[Grace Seeker]

Substituted huh?

Man A : Strives hard to please God and be righteous? too bad, God wants Christ's righteousness not yours

Man B: Lying thieving scum? It's your lucky day, you get to have Christ's righteousness


I honestly don't know how to respond to this. God wants us to be good but then sends his son down who is actually him in another form to take away our sins and save us with himself from his own wrath.

Well, at least you understand it, even if you do not accept it.

Actually, we believe that some Muslims will be sent to Hellfire because their bad deeds and sins outweighed their good deeds and acts of worship.

And we believe that there are none, including Man A above, whose sins do not outweigh their good deeds.

While Allah is Merciful with His Forgiveness, He is also Just in His Punishment. We believe that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) will make intercession before Allah on their behalf and they will eventually be released from Hellfire if they did not associate partners with Allah.

So, you do depend on an intercessor. One who stands between you and Allah, but you don't think of that person as a partner with God. Well, neither do I think of Christ as a partner with God for I think he is in fact THE one God Almighty, Father, Creator, Redeemer, and Sustainer of all humankind. And yes he interceedes on our behalf with himself. On the one hand Almighty Judge and on the other our Advocate before the throne of judgment. To our mind, a mere human would not be capable of making that appeal, but God himself, out of his love and mercy can appeal to himself and satisify his own demands for justice and righteousness that I and no other human being could ever offer.

I have great hope in the Mercy of Allah and I pray for His Forgiveness, but at the same time I fear His Wrath for the wrong that I have done both knowingly and unknowingly. While we don't claim to earn Paradise by our good deeds, we do believe that good deeds counteract and erase bad deeds.

And we don't believe that our deeds are placed on a scale. There is no point. Good deeds do not erase bad deeds. It is not like a math equation with a zero point sum. It is a standard of perfection, and no matter how good you are, unless one is perfect they still fall short of what God is seeking. Thus we are to be good not to earn anything, but for the sake of goodness itself.

How can a government pardon a crime if the criminal does not even recognize the government? Shirk is spiritual treason, and Allah will never forgive those who did not recognize His supreme authority by being devoted to other gods if they died in that state without having repented. If you committed all the sins in the world, Allah will come with an equal amount of mercy to forgive those sins provided you did not associate any partners with Him. Truly Allah is Ghafoorun Raheem (Forgiving and Merciful).

Amazingly, this is curiously close to the Christian understanding of grace. You are right that a government cannot pardon a crime if the criminal does not even recognize the government. Now you suggest that those who recognize Christ as God are committing spiritual treason. But just for a moment try to hear what Christians are saying. (I'm not asking you to accept it, but to hear it.)

The Christian says that one must place one's faith not in one's own merit, but in the work of God. That God and God alone is to be the central focus of one's life. That though you may have failed to live that way, if you will get your eyes off of yourself, and back on God, if you will repent of your sin and seek to submit yourself to God's authority in your life, then God can redeem you, reclaim you, and restore you to a position of fellowship with him such as you were originally created to live in. The first step in that process is God's unmerited love directed toward us, and the response that is needed is not some act on our part but a decision to trust in what God is doing --our actions must flow out of trusting God to be as good as his word.

The Christian hears that word, the promise of God's mercy, in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus who we believe embodies God come among us. You may call that final belief shirk, but do you see how similar the rest is to what you described. And for us to turn our back and not trust in the work of Christ and try to be good in our own right, would be exactly the type of treason of not recognizing the government you describe.

 

[AhlaamBella]

Greetings and peace be with you RoseGold;


As I understand it, the same God is also merciful to Muslims who murder and sin, as long as they do not commit shirk.

We do not deserve such a wonderful and merciful God.

In the spirit of praying for God’s mercy for all people,

Eric

Oh trust me; those sins do NOT go unpunished. No poor soul has to be nailed to a cross for it believe me.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

....As I understand it, the same God is also merciful to Muslims who murder and sin, as long as they do not commit shirk.

on the last day , many Muslims will go to hell .

After spending there few/ many days/ months/years.....depends on their sins & wills of God .......at last they will be able to get out of hell as a reward for not committing the most major sin.....shirk.

We do not deserve such a wonderful and merciful God.

care to give a second thought ?? We all may not be able to go to heaven on the last day ( may God forbid) ; all our hope will be gone if God won't be merciful to us later. So , what's wrong if punishing the sinners , God forgive them later ?

 

[Grace Seeker]

care to give a second thought ?? We all may not be able to go to heaven on the last day ( may God forbid) ; all our hope will be gone if God won't be merciful to us later. So , what's wrong if punishing the sinners , God forgive them later ?

Nothing is wrong with God forgiving sinners. We just happen to believe that the time for declaring one's faith in, trust in and allegiance to the God who forgives is in this life, not the next.

 

[AhlaamBella]

Nothing is wrong with God forgiving sinners. We just happen to believe that the time for declaring one's faith in, trust in and allegiance to the God who forgives is in this life, not the next.

So do we we're not as different as you seem to think