Christian Trinity and Muslim's Tauwheed [monotheism] = Same God? A Clarification.

[Grace Seeker]

So do we we're not as different as you seem to think

I don't think we are that different, and in fact often make that point. (Which is not always accepted, but I make it anyway.) My relationships with Muslims is too close and too personal to think that we are that far apart.

From your perspective, do you see the Islamic view of spending time in hell before going to heaven in a similar vein to the Catholic concept of purgatory -- that concept is that one is claimed by Christ, but needs to be purified of sins before being admitted to heaven. There is a guanrantee it will happen, but there must be this time of cleansing of sins before it is allowed. What is the reason that a believing Muslim would be sent to hell?

Is it fair to assume from your "so do we" comment that you don't suggest that a non-believer can become a believer in hell?

 

[AhlaamBella]

Oh sure they sound the same but only one is true I don't need to tell you which one I feel is right

 

[Grace Seeker]

Oh sure they sound the same but only one is true I don't need to tell you which one I feel is right

No. I respect that you believe what you believe. I was just wanting to know if you viewed them as basically the same, or if you saw significant differences in the two concepts.

What appears similar on the surface, may in fact be radically and fundamentally different on closer examination. The wings on a bird and the wings on a bee for instance are alike only in that they both evolved to allow for flight. Beyond that there is no comparison. Likewise the trintiy that some like to speak of in Hinduism and the Trintiy of Christianity have in common only that idea that they are both speaking of God.

So, I didn't know if the concept of dying and not going to heaven but eventually progressing toward heaven in Islam was more similar to Catholic purgatory or to Jewish Sheol, or if it was completely its own construction.

 

[AhlaamBella]

I once heard this: christianity and islam are like two beams of sunlight. Separate but from the same source Jews, christians and muslims. . . all our messages have been from the same source. But these messages have been distorted. Final message will be protected my God. Christianity once said the same as Islam. Think about it. Moses, Jesus, Muhammed. Peace be upon them all. All with the same message. They didn't oppose each other.

 

[MustafaMc]

Oh sure they sound the same but only one is true I don't need to tell you which one I feel is right

There are similarities, but distinct differences.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the dam_ed" (CCC 1031).

This doctrine of imperfect purification seems contrary to the Protestant doctrine of reliance on Jesus' (as) blood for cleansing of sins. Theirs is a black and white (not a shade of gray) salvation issue.

In Islam, part of the Mercy of Allah is that good deeds for a believer carry much more weight than the bad deeds he commits. Even the intention to do a bad deed is counted as a good deed if the person corrects himself and does not commit the deed. However, we never know how we will be judged on that Day. For example, the suicide bomber who kills himself and innocent people may be sent to Hell for a time rather than to Heaven as a martyr as he expected. Only Allah knows his (and my) place, but if this person did not associate others with Allah, then we believe that he will eventually be released from Hellfire. My understanding of purgatory is that it is "Hell Light" in contrast to the full, though not eternal, punishment of a Muslim in the Hellfire. Of course, Muslims hope in the Mercy of Allah and they strive with their lives to avoid any punishment in the Hellfire.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I once heard this: christianity and islam are like two beams of sunlight. Separate but from the same source Jews, christians and muslims. . . all our messages have been from the same source. But these messages have been distorted. Final message will be protected my God. Christianity once said the same as Islam. Think about it. Moses, Jesus, Muhammed. Peace be upon them all. All with the same message. They didn't oppose each other.

I like your illustration of the beam of light. I think we all see light differently depending on the lens we view it through. Some through glasses, others telescopes, and each through eyes that each refract the light differently onto the retina at the back of our eyes. In that regard no two of us, see the world exactly the same because while we all look to the same light, we each see that light through our own lens. Of course some see very much the same thing having put on the same brand sunglasses or having chosen not to wear glasses at all. But still each person's vision is uniquely his/her own.

Now today, what we know about God comes from people who have revealed God to us. They are also lenses. Your lens is the Qur'an and Hadith that suggests that others before gave the same message but that it was later corrupted and lost. Mine is a lens called the Bible, and it too says that this light will be corrupted by some. It is as if we are each viewing a part of the stream of light that has come out of a prism that separates that light into respective parts of the spectrum, and yet each of us wants to say that the part we see is the true original light and the others is false. And so we make a comparison, and sure enough the others is different from what we see, proving to each of us individually that we are right and the other is wrong. It of course cannot be that we are both right, and it might be that we are even both wrong, but unless we get back beyond the lens that is refracting the light, we will never know which one of us is viewing the more distorted image until we stand before God ourselves staring him full in the face. Then we shall know, even as we are now known.

And Allah knows best.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

......So, you do depend on an intercessor. One who stands between you and Allah, but you don't think of that person as a partner with God.

Prophet Muhammed (p) does not have any power to forgive anyone including his own mom ,dad , sons or daughters.



All he can do is to pray to God to forgive some sinners. It does not make him partner of God or deity.



A Muslim will be a sinners if s/he directly asks the Prophet to forgive him/her.

 

[bibleblevr]

In the bible it is clearly stated that the bible is complete, it is the 100% true word of God. Since all in the Bible is true, Jesus must be the son of God which leads you to Christianity. tell me were my logic fails, do I misunderstand Islam

 

[Tornado]

tell me were my logic fails

Are you joking? If you weren't, read your post again, and again...

 

[Na7lah]

In the bible it is clearly stated that the bible is complete, it is the 100% true word of God. Since all in the Bible is true, Jesus must be the son of God which leads you to Christianity. tell me were my logic fails, do I misunderstand Islam

u know anyone can write a book and say it is completetly true right?
wouldnt you need proof after they say that?

 

[Grace Seeker]

u know anyone can write a book and say it is completetly true right?
wouldnt you need proof after they say that?

And anyone can say that an angel gave them a special message from God: members of the sect established by Joseph Smith believe that an angel named Moroni revealed a sacred text to him and that Smith was specifically chosen by God to restore the true Gospel of Jesus Christ that had been corrupted because all of the existing churches had become apostate churches. I don't see that the claims of Islam are much different from that of the Mormons, why shouldn't I accept their claims to special revelation of the Book of Mormon over the Qur'an? After all it is newer, a more recent revelation.

 

[Na7lah]

I don't see that the claims of Islam are much different from that of the Mormons,

We claim that we have a prophet that was sent to all mankind, and we believe that he was sent with a book the quran. in order for u to claim that it is false u'd have to proove that the quran is fabricated, written by a man.
as stated in the quran u or anyone else who tries will fail
why? simply because its a book with no faults

if u do not belive me u can try and find any contradictions in it though u won't be able to

 

[جوري]

And anyone can say that an angel gave them a special message from God: members of the sect established by Joseph Smith believe that an angel named Moroni revealed a sacred text to him and that Smith was specifically chosen by God to restore the true Gospel of Jesus Christ that had been corrupted because all of the existing churches had become apostate churches. I don't see that the claims of Islam are much different from that of the Mormons, why shouldn't I accept their claims to special revelation of the Book of Mormon over the Qur'an? After all it is newer, a more recent revelation.

umm.. because the book of the Mormons looks surprisingly like the bible for starters..
The Quran is its own testament!
The entire book is written like a poem, yet it isn't a poem
uses the least words in descriptions so powerful and unmatched, ex. suret an.nazi3at it takes 7 English words to describe just two words in Arabic, it is unprecedented in eloquence, beauty, language. lyricism
It covers all aspects of ones life, politics, economics, social structure, laws of inheritance, how to run a government.
It has scientific reason that doesn't defy logic, and a mere look at the history of the Muslim empire compared to that of the dark ages of the church is enough of a testament!
It is in concert with all that preceded it and doesn't defy logic for instance God doesn't die, doesn't lie, doesn't make a covenant with his own self, doesn't change his mind, doesn't pray to himself in the Garden of Gethsemane the night before he forsakes himself, doesn't break his own commandments not only those that he established but the most important of not killing himself by way of forsaking. doesn't abandon the universe for by being a suckling kid, doesn't go give a woman glad tiding of impregnating her of himself, doesn't take a leave of absence while he dies for three days, and makes sure that his death and birth are coincidentally similar to pagan greek or Zoroastrian spring solstice.. doesn't condemn things and then later abrogate them, doesn't in an anticlimactic moment eats people's sins to have them enter into his heaven...

in Short Islam and the Quran don't have the absurdities in the bible, or the re-writing of the bible as you have a million version that all disagree with each other, whether the Mormon guy was visited or not, really no different than Paul/saul's visitation .. the product of both is a pretty deranged religion that defies all logic...

 

[Tornado]

We claim that we have a prophet that was sent to all mankind, and we believe that he was sent with a book the quran. in order for u to claim that it is false u'd have to proove that the quran is fabricated, written by a man.
as stated in the quran u or anyone else who tries will fail
why? simply because its a book with no faults

if u do not belive me u can try and find any contradictions in it though u won't be able to

How is that different than saying "We believe the Bible to be true, in order for you to claim that it is false, you'd have to prove that the bible is wrong.

Alas! You go to the books and see what they say. To see whether the books were fabricated or not, we'd have to rewind time.

 

[Na7lah]

"We believe the Bible to be true, in order for you to claim that it is false, you'd have to prove that the bible is wrong.

well there are many contradictions in the bible itself
and that is probably because it was rewritten so many times

whereas the quran is in its original form

 

[جوري]

P.S to the thread starter.. the answer is NO
I don't believe Christians pray to the same God..
To them God is the messenger Jesus.. that is whom they call upon, mock in cartoons, put up for sale next to bratz dolls, or in borders or as parody

[image removed]

That is what they have reduced God to, and they are happy with it.. we walk different paths and worship God not men, not dolls and not frogs!

 

[Tornado]

well there are many contradictions in the bible itself

I'm playing devil's advocate . I can't really speak to these contradictions in the bible or any other holy books because I've not extensively studied them (actually, never studied in any capacity but I'd have to do an extensive study :blind:, maybe one day).

 

[Keltoi]

^^^ I'm not even sure what this is or where it comes from, but it is offensive in the extreme.

***referring to Sky's frog Christ.

 

[جوري]

why are you not as outraged when they sell a sandaled hippie God/Jesus at walmart next to bratz dolls?

Yeah I agree what Christianity is and has come to is indeed offensive in the extreme!

 

[Grace Seeker]

We claim that we have a prophet that was sent to all mankind, and we believe that he was sent with a book the quran. in order for u to claim that it is false u'd have to proove that the quran is fabricated, written by a man.
as stated in the quran u or anyone else who tries will fail
why? simply because its a book with no faults

if u do not belive me u can try and find any contradictions in it though u won't be able to

My proof is the Bible. It specifically says that Jesus died on a cross. The Qur'an says he did not. Since I know the Bible to be true, this proves the Qur'an false. You may not like my opinion, but it is every bit as valid as saying that since you know the Qur'an to be true that you know the Bible then to be corrupted. And as far as outside corroberation for either, it appears to me that there is more for the Biblical account than for the Qur'anic account:

Two near-contemporary Roman sources give evidence of Jesus. Suetonius, in the Life of Claudius, talks about a Chrestus who caused public distrubances—possibly a reference to Christ. Tacitus, in Annals, reports that a Christus, after whom Christians are named, was killed by Pontius Pilate under the reign of Tiberius. The Jewish historian Josephus notes the death of "James, the brother of Jesus." (Yes, later Christian interpretators of Josephus added the phrase "who was called the Christ," but that doesn't negate what Josephus himself wrote.) I'll grant it isn't overwhelming evidence, but enough to corroborate the gospels and convince most people that a Jew named Jesus did live in the first century and died at the hands of the Romans.

As far as contradictions, you claim that all of the prophets were prophets of Isalm, yet the Qur'an says that Muhammad was the first to bow to Allah in Islam (39:12). So, what? Abraham, Jacob, Moses were all prophets of Islam, but never bowed to Allah? If they didn't submit to Allah, how could they be followers of Islam? That in and of itself is contradictory, but beyond that the Qur'an then disputes what it has already said about Muhammad, for Surah 7:143 tells us that Moses was the first to believe. But since Abraham was years before Moses then I guess he couldn't have been a believer. Except that Surah 2:132 says that both Abraham and Jacob died in the faith of Islam. So, there you have it. Abraham and Jacob were both in the faith of Islam at the time of their death about 400 years before the birth of Moses, who then became the first to believe, as would many subsequent prophets such as David and Isa, but despite all of these believers, and prophets of Islam, Muhammad was the first to bow to Allah in Islam. No doubt this is something that you will have a prepared piece of apologetics for, but a religion that disputes every inconsistency in the Bible as proof of its human origins, you are sure willing to live with some might big holes in your own sacred text.