Christian worship of Jesus..

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:sl:

You are utterly unbelievable Grace Seeker! You DONT read peoples posts yet you keep repeating the same thing like a broken cd player. I answered that before! You do not have any evidence nor anything to go with and now you are clearly staling you keep repeating the same thing we discuss over and over again. How sad.

And plus you have not said I am sorry yet, I am still waiting.
 
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:sl:

You are utterly unbelievable Grace Seeker! You DONT read peoples posts yet you keep repeating the same thing like a broken cd player. I answered that before! You do not have any evidence nor anything to go with and now you are clearly staling you keep repeating the same thing we discuss over and over again. How sad.
And apparently you don't read mine:
(I don't want to misconstrue your posts to say something that you aren't really saying. That is why, even if you have addressed this before, I am asking again rather than assuming I know the answer.)

And plus you have not said I am sorry yet, I am still waiting.
A said, "I apologize." Meaning that I acknowledged my faults, shortcomings, and failings. I didn't say that I also regret them, I had hoped you would have understood that as well. But you didn't. So, let it be known that I did and do indeed regret them.



Now, will you please humor me. I've tried to go back to where I went wrong. You told me that I didn't ask what it means, so now I am.

And in so doing am indeed asking some of the same questions a second time. That is because since I jumped to a conclusion and misunderstood you the first time, I want to be sure to not do the same and misunderstand your meaning the second time.

You have said that Jews ascribe offspring to Allah. But the text you cite as support for that statement I am told is referring only to a handful of Jews in one isolated spot and is not representative of all of them. So, what is your point? It seems irrelevant to your larger thesis.
 
Allah - The One and Only God

The essence of godhood is authority, whether it is conceived as sovereignty of a supernatural kind over the whole universe, or on the basis that man is bound by God's law in his worldly life and that all of His injunctions are to be complied with because they emanate from Him.

To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth. How can He have a son when He had no consort? He it is Who created all things, and He alone has full knowledge of all things; That is God, your Lord! No god there is but He, the Creator of all things; Then give your worship to Him; And He it is Who looks after the safety and well-being of all. (Quran 6:102-103)

Lord - Concept and History
A perspective and analysis based on the Holy Quran on the concept of Lord God(Rabb in Arabic) in Islam and some other religions and how it was understood by various nations in history.
The Most Beautiful Names belong to Allah

The most beautiful names belong to God: so call on Him by them; but shun
such men as use profanity in His names: for what they do, they will soon be requited. (The Holy Quran, 7:180)


Concept of Lord God by the Jews and Christians

After Pharaoh's people, the next in historical order are the Israelites and those people who adopted the Jewish religion or Christianity. In their case, there can obviously be no question about their either not acknowledging the existence of God or not believing in His being the Ilah and the Rabb. The Qur'an itself affirms their belief in Him on the point and the question which therefore arises is of the particular error for which they were characterized in the Qur'an as "those who went astray". (Quran 1:7)

A brief answer is:

Say (O' Muhammed): "O' people of the Book: Do not exaggerate concerning your faith, and adopt not the wrong notions of those who have gone astray before you, who misled many others, and themselves too strayed from the straight path." (Quran 5:77)

From this, one may conclude that, in essence, the Jews and Christians too were guilty of the same error into which others had fallen earlier, and that in their case this arose out of exaggerated piety. Let us go into the matter in some detail, with the help of the Qur'an:

(i) And the Jews said: "Uzair (Ezra) is son of God, while the Christians said, "Isa (Jesus) is son of God." (Quran 9:30)

(ii) It was kufr on the part of Christians, to say that God was the same as Jesus son of Mary; though Jesus had himself said, for a fact, "O' sons of Israel, give your 'ibadah to Allah. Who is also your Rabb and my Rabb." (Quran 5:72)

(iii) Verily those who said 'that God is one of three, committed kufr, for there is but one Ilah and there is no ilah but He. (Quran 5:73)


(iv) And there will come a time (the Day of Judgment) when God will ask "O' Jesus, son of Mary, did you tell people to take you and your mother as ilahs besides Myself?" to which Jesus will reply, "Glory be to you! How could I have dared say that which I had no right to utter!" (Quran 5:116)

(v) It is not for any person that, after being given the Book, and being endowed with hikmah [Literally, this word means wisdom; but when used in reference to a Prophet, it means that special wisdom which comes automatically after investment with the office of Prophethood, and which enables the Prophet to understand and expound the implications, and requirements of the Divine Injunctions. A. A. Maududi] and invested with Prophethood, he should go about telling people to give up God and instead give their allegiance and 'ibadah to him. Far more fitting it is that he should say: "Believe firmly in Allah as the Rabb (in every sense of the word), as you find it written in His Book, and as you learn of yourselves and teach others." Nor, again, is it for a prophet to tell the people to regard the angels and the prophets as rabbs. Would he enjoin kufr to you after you have become Muslims? (Quran 3:79-80)

What we learn from the relevant verses is that the first error of the Jews and Christians was to raise their Prophets, and saints, and the angel, etc., to the status of divinity out of exaggerated regard for them, to believe them to have a say in the ordering of the universe and its affairs, to worship and address their prayers to them, treat them as partners in rububiyyah and in godhood in the supernatural sense, and to believe that they could remit their sins and come to their rescue and protect them from misfortune and disasters.

Their second error lay in their making even their scribes and hermits into rabbs, besides God (cf.9:31). In other words, the people whose real function was to expound God's law to others, and to reform the people morally and spiritually to make their conduct conform to Divine precepts were gradually assigned authority to determine, on their own, what was to be treated as forbidden and what as permitted, without reference to what was said in the Book. They could forbid any practices they did not approve, and institute any others they fancied. And in this way both Jews and Christians fell into the same two basic errors as that into which the people of Prophets Nuh and Ibrahim (on whom both be peace), the 'Aadites and the Thamud and the people of Madyan and others had fallen earlier. Like them, they too made the angels and their religious leaders to be partners with God in Rububiyyah in the supernatural sense, and in moral, cultural and political spheres too. And so they began to take their cultural, economic, moral and political principles from human beings, disregarding the Divine injunctions, until they reached a stage about which the Qur'an says:

Have you noticed the people who were given a portion of the Book of God, but who (instead of making it the basis for their conduct), believed in jibt and taghoot? (Quran 4:51)

Say (O' Muhammad): "Shall I tell you who are worse as to their ultimate fate with Allah than even the fasiqs [A fasiq, according to the Qur'an is one who breaks his covenant with Allah, who severs the ties between Him and His creatures and between man and man, and who creates mischief upon earth (cf. note in Tafhim-ul-Qur'an. Vol.1. p.61. relative to 2-27-2). A. A. Maududi]. It is those who drew the curse of God upon them, those who invited His wrath, and of whom many were turned into apes and swine by His Command, and who gave their worship to taghoot; they are the lowest in degree, and the farthest astray from the straight path." (Quran 5:60)

The word jibt is a comprehensive term for all myths and superstitions, embracing such superstitious things as magic, the art of the occult, black magic, necromancy, witch-craft, soothsaying, divination, the belief in talismans or lucky stones or unlucky colors or numbers or natural phenomena, etc., or in the influence of the heavenly bodies on human affairs. As for taghoot, this term applies to every person, or group of persons, or organization or institution which, instead of submitting to God and His Injunctions, rebels against them and virtually sets up himself or itself as god instead, or is so set up by people. So when the Jews and Christians committed the two errors indicated above, the result of the first was that different kinds of superstitious beliefs took hold of their minds and of the second that their scribes and hermits, etc., gradually came to assume the same right to tell people what to do and what not as had been presumConcept of Lord God in Islam

Allah - The One and Only God - Lord - Concept and History
Concept of Lord God in Islam

The foregoing detailed exposition of the misguided conceptions of various pre-Islamic people make it patently clear that from earliest times to the revelation of the Qur'an, none of those whom it mentions as the transgressors, the misguided, and the astray, actually denied the existence of God, or His being the Rabb and the ilah. All, however, went wrong in much the same ways in dividing the attributes of rububiyyah, in its five different senses, into two separate compartments.

Insofar as such attributes of Allah as His being the Cherisher, the Provider, and the Protector and Helper of the creatures in the transcendental sense were concerned, the people regarded them as something apart from the rest. And, although in this sphere they did regard Allah as the Supreme Rabb, they also believed that the angels and various gods, the genii, and invisible forces, the stars, and other heavenly bodies, the Prophets and saints and other holy men, also had different shares in this rububiyyah.

As for the remaining attributes, namely, Allah's being the Supreme Sovereign, the Fountainhead of authority, the Supreme Law-giver, and the Supreme Lord of all creation etc., the people either assigned these roles wholly to particular human beings or, while assigning them to God in theory, in practice treated the entire rububiyyah in moral, cultural, and political spheres as vesting in these beings.

It was for the task of removal of both these types of misconceptions that there were ordained all the different Prophets from time to time (may peace be upon them) and, finally, Allah sent Muhammad (peace be upon him), as His last Prophet. All of the Prophets called to man to believe that there was but one Rabb, that is, Allah, in all of the various senses of the word, and that rububiyyah was not divisible nor was any portion of it available to any creature. The management and control of the universe, they emphasized, was centered is One Authority only, the Authority Who alone had created it, entirely to His own Grand Design and purpose, and Who exercised both de jure and de facto rule over all its affairs, and no-one had any share either in the creation or the running of the universe. As the Center of all authority, God alone was and is the Rabb, in all the senses of the word, both in transcendental matters and the temporal affairs of men. He alone was and is worthy of all worship, of being made the focus of all adoration and prayer. He alone listens to all prayers and He alone is worthy of our reliance and capable of providing for the needs of all too. He alone is at the same time the King, the Lord of the Universe and the source of all law and authority, and He alone has therefore the right to lay down what is right and what is wrong and what ought or ought not to be done. It is in the very nature of things a misconceived notion to think of rububiyyah as something which could be split up into compartments. It is an essential, and exclusive attribute of Allah and; hence, obviously and necessarily indivisible.

This call of the various Prophets (on whom be peace), is brought out in the Qur'an in many a place, e.g.:

Verily, your Rabb is Allah (alone)-He Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and then established Himself on the Mighty Throne; He it is Who draws the night as a veil over the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession; the sun and the moon, and the stars are all subservient to His Law and Commands; Verily, it is patent that all creation is His, and authority too vests in Him, and Most Blessed is he, the Lord of all the Worlds. (Quran 7:54)

Ask them (O Prophet), "Who is it who provides sustenance for you from the heavens and the earth? Is it He in Whose power are hearing and sight, and Who brings forth the living from the dead and the dead from the living, and Who rules and regulates all affairs?" (If you ask) they will say, "It is Allah (Who does all this)." Ask them, then, "Wherefore, then, do you not fear Him (and change your ways)?" (Say): "Such is Allah, your real Rabb and true, and, apart from Truth, what remains but error, and so wherefore do you get turned astray?’ (Quran 10:31,32)

He (it is Who) created the heavens and the earth in Truth; He it is Who makes the night overlap the day and the day overlap the night, and made, the son and the moon subservient (to His Law), each one following a course till an appointed time … such is God, your Rabb; His is the Kingdom and there is no ilah but He; and why, then, do you keep getting turned away? (Quran 39:5-6)

Allah it is Who made the night for you that you may find rest and peace in it, and the day in which you are enabled to see ... Such is Allah, your Rabb Creator of every thing. There is no ilah but He; so why are you deluded into straying? ... Allah it is Who made the earth a place for you to live and rest upon, and the sky a roof over you, and gave you shapes; and good shapes at that, and provided for your provision good and wholesome food; such is Allah, your Rabb, and, so, blessed be He, the Lord of all the Worlds. He alone is the Living (One); there is no ilah, but He and to Him alone then address all your prayers. (Quran 40:61-65)

And Allah (it was Who) created you from clay…He merges night into day and day into night, and made the sun and the moon obey His Law, each following its course until an appointed timer Such is Allah, your Rabb; in Him vests all Sovereignty, while those; on call to besides him possess no such authority; and if you call upon them, they hear not your call and if they did they would not make any reply and, on the Day of Judgement, they will (to you discomfiture), (but) repudiate (and disown) your association of them with God. (Quran 35:11,13-14)

And to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth, and all are abjectly obedient and subservient to Him..., He propounds to you a similitude from your own (experience): Has any of your slaves a share in owning any of the things which We have bestowed upon you? Do they equal right, with you in the ownership and use of these things? Do you fear them as you fear your equals? Thus do we expound arguments to point the way to reality to those with wisdom and understanding, but wrong-doers merely follow their own baseless notions… Therefore (O' Prophet, and those of you who believe in him), set your face steadily and truly to the Faith; establish God's handiwork according to the pattern on which He has read, mankind; no change let there be in the work wrought by Him. This is the straight and correct road, but many among mankind know this not. (Quran 30:26,28,20,30)

And, (the wrongdoers) did not appreciate God (and His attributes) in proper measure, and (they will see that) on the Day of judgment He will hold the earth in his fist, and the heavens will be rolled-up in His right hand; blessed is He and far above the (supposed) partners they associate with Him. (Quran 39:67).

And praise all is due to Allah alone, the Rabb of the heavens and the Rabb of the earth, and Rabb of all the Worlds; and to Him belongs all Greatness and Glory throughout the heavens and the earth; and He is exalted in Power, and the All-Wise. (Quran 45:36,37)

He is the Rabb of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them; so give your 'ibadah to Him (O' Prophet) and remain steadfast in your worship of Him; (and) do yen know of aught like Him? (Quran 19:65)

And Allah (alone) knows the hidden realities of the heavens and the earth, and to Him are referred all matters, so give your 'ibadah to Him (alone), and rely not upon any but Him. (Quran 11:123)

He is the Rabb of the East and of the West; No ilah there is but He, and so entrust all your affairs unto Him (alone). (Quran 73:9)

Verily this brotherhood of yours (that is, of all the prophets) is a single brotherhood, and I am your Rabb, wherefore give your 'ibadah to Me. Men have apportioned rububiyyah and the duty of 'ibadah on their own (without any sanction from Us), and all of them will, ultimately, return to Us. (Quran 21:92-93)

Obey that which has been sent down to you from your Rabb, and do not obey others besides Him (as supposed protectors or guardians). (Quran 7:3)

Say (O Prophet): "O people of the Book: Pledge your creed to that which is common between us and you, that we do not give our 'ibadah to any but Allah and that we associate none with Him, and that we do not asks any human being a rabb besides Him. (Quran 3:64)

Say (O Prophet): I seek refuge with the (Sole) Rabb of all mankind, the (Sole) Monarch over all mankind, and the (Sole) Ilah of all." (Quran 114:1-3)

So whosoever looks forth to meeting his Rabb let him do pious deeds, and associate not any with his worship of Him. (Quran 18:110)

The foregoing verses bring out as clearly as possible that the Holy Qur'an uses rububiyyah as exactly synonymous with sovereignty, and the concept of Rabb it presents is that Allah is the Absolute Monarch of all creation, and its sole Lord and Master, and, as such:

He is our Cherisher and Provider and Sustainer, and of all that constitutes creation; It is He Who looks after all our needs, governs all our affairs, and is alone worthy of our entrusting all our affairs to His discretion; It is by virtue of this very attribute that faith. in Him is the only right basis on which to build up the structure of human life in proper manner, and attachment only to His central Personage is capable of bringing together different individuals and groups and forming them into an Ummah.

He alone is worthy of the 'ibadah, and submission, and worship, of all humanity and other creatures; and He alone is the Lord, Master, and Ruler, of ourselves, and all else besides.

The pagans, whether Arabs or others, have always committed the error, which continues even today, of splitting up the comprehensive concept of rububiyyah into its five facets as if they could exist separately or be vested in different beings. The Qur'an lives most cogent and irrefutable arguments that the Universe is one, and that there is no room in it at all for Supreme Authority and rububiyyah vesting in any but the same Being. The very fact that the universe is subject to one supreme law shows that rububiyyah is reserved solely for Allah, Who alone brought the universe into existence. Therefore, whoever attributes any portion of rububiyyah to any but Him seeks but to depart from or ignore the ultimate fundamental Reality, to turn away from the Reality of the universe, to rebel against Truth, and, by thus going against what exists, only brings loss to himself and ultimate disaster.


ed by those who were open rebels against God.
 
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well seeing as how no refutation was made to my points, ill move on

who did jesus pray to? i have yet to hear any argument from a christian answering this (i define argument as some point that makes sense)

if jesus prayed to god then he prayed to himeself - why do we never hear of the father worshipping jesus? why does the holy ghost never pray?
 
:sl:

A said, "I apologize." Meaning that I acknowledged my faults, shortcomings, and failings. I didn't say that I also regret them, I had hoped you would have understood that as well. But you didn't. So, let it be known that I did and do indeed regret them.

I did not ask you to apologize I ask you to say I am sorry, will you do this? A simple yes or no will do.

You have said that Jews ascribe offspring to Allah. But the text you cite as support for that statement I am told is referring only to a handful of Jews in one isolated spot and is not representative of all of them. So, what is your point? It seems irrelevant to your larger thesis.

I told you the jews of madeenah said this, I have told you again and again yet you keep asking what jews? And yes the jews of madeenah are considered as any other jews so they are not some kind of minority that can be brushed aside. No one ever claimed all the jews say this, did we? Perhaps you thought this.

I am sorry to say that if after these many pages of discussion you have not an idea of what my point is, I really see this as a utter waste of time.

I have a feeling that you do not even know what your own point is!
 
who did jesus pray to? i have yet to hear any argument from a christian answering this (i define argument as some point that makes sense)

if jesus prayed to god then he prayed to himeself - why do we never hear of the father worshipping jesus? why does the holy ghost never pray?

very important questions!

Its as if a God is either praying to himself, or a God praying to another God higher than him in the level of divinity.
 
:sl:



I did not ask you to apologize I ask you to say I am sorry, will you do this? A simple yes or no will do.
No.

I have apologized and expressed regret. Perhaps English is not your native language, here is a definition of what you are asking for:
Main Entry: sor·ry
Pronunciation: \ˈsär-ē, ˈsȯr-\
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): sor·ri·er; sor·ri·est
Etymology: Middle English sory, from Old English sārig, from sār sore
Date: before 12th century
1 : feeling sorrow, regret, or penitence
2 : mournful, sad
3 : inspiring sorrow, pity, scorn, or ridicule : pitiful <their affairs were in a sorry state>
As you don't want to repeat yourself, neither do I.




I told you the jews of madeenah said this, I have told you again and again yet you keep asking what jews? And yes the jews of madeenah are considered as any other jews so they are not some kind of minority that can be brushed aside. No one ever claimed all the jews say this, did we? Perhaps you thought this.

I am sorry to say that if after these many pages of discussion you have not an idea of what my point is, I really see this as a utter waste of time.
Your point is to show that the Jews have beliefs that have come from paganism. However, pointing to an anacronist belief amongst the Jews of Medinah, one that is not reflective of Judaism as a whole, simply does not show this. That is what I thought you were doing form the start and why I challenged you to show me where it was in Jewish scripture. I can point to all sorts of beliefs and behaviors on the parts of Muslims as well -- including, I kid you not, examples of some Muslims who worship Jesus as the Son of God. You would object if I removed the qualifier from the front of that statement and simply said "Muslims worship Jesus as the Son of God." And you would be right to do so. But you have in essence done the very thing with regard to the Jews, and it is just as objectionable there as well. For Jews do not believe Ezra to be the Son of God, any more than Muslims believe Jesus to be the Son of God. And to use that quote to either assert or imply that they do, when in fact they do not, is to distort the truth. That is my point!
 
very important questions!

Its as if a God is either praying to himself, or a God praying to another God higher than him in the level of divinity.

You are actually correct. It is as if God is praying to himself. When one recalls that prayer is conversation and that Christians understand that God exists in one being, but three persons, then this makes a little more sense. (Not that I expect you to accept it. I'm just trying to answer your questions as to why he would do so.) Christians understand that the three persons of the one Godhead are (and have always been from before the beginning of time) in community with one another. Since God is the eternal Father, then there has never been a time when God was not the Father. But to speak of him being the Father before the existence of the Son is nonesense. (Yeah, that's an opening for someone to suggest that the whole concept is nonensense. Take your best shot, I'm going to move on.) Thus it follows that if we have an eternal Father that there is also a etneral Son. For just the Father has always been the Father, then there must have always been a Son to be the Father of. Notice that this means that they are co-eternal. One does not come before the other. So the ideas of offspring really is not what we are talking about when we talk about Jesus as the Son of God. Rather we are talking about the nature and intimacy of their relationship. How Jesus and God the Father share the same nature. Thus, if Jesus shares the same nature with God the Father, then he too must be God. But we also still affirm the Shema of the Jews: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." Now, I didn't mean to go off into a discussion of the Trinity, so, I'll stop there. But this sets up for us the idea of one being and 3 persons (or at least 2 for how far I went with it). And these persons, though one, are still distinct. A type of this can be seen in scriptures description of a man and a woman being joined to become one. If you're married you might even have some idea from your own experience what is meant by that. You are a couple and you one couple made of two persons. To remain a healthy couple you have to spend a lot of time in communication with each other. Not just for day to day affairs, but because of the importance of sharing yourself with the other with whom you are in such an intimate relationship. And so, the Father and the Son have this relationship. While the term prayer is never used to describe the Father's communication with the Son, it is clear that the Father and the Son do engage in two-way communication. And that happens in the form of prayer. Interestingly enough, if one does a word search you will find that scripture also never mentions that Jesus prayed to the Father. It says things like "I will ask the Father", but never that he prayed to the Father. Yet, he taught his disciples to pray to the Father. And he spent time in prayer in conversation with the Father. So, here we have the conversation, but not as if directed outside of himself. Almost what you said, with just one modification. Jesus is not an example of God praying to himself, but of him praying with himself.

As to the Holy Spirit praying, we actually do see this in scripture. People are often mentioned praying "in the Spirit". But perhaps the verse that sheds the most light on this is Romans 8:26 -- "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express." So, because we cannot express to God what we want to say, God himself (in the person of his Holy Spirit), comes and helps us (that is what it means to intercede) to express what we could not say and in this instance, since he goes so far as to pray on our behalf, it really might be consider as God praying to God. Again this gives us an example for our lives. We are to live in community with one another just as God lives in a communal relationship with himself.
 
That is the explanation you need
Allah - The One and Only God

The essence of godhood is authority, whether it is conceived as sovereignty of a supernatural kind over the whole universe, or on the basis that man is bound by God's law in his worldly life and that all of His injunctions are to be complied with because they emanate from Him.

To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth. How can He have a son when He had no consort? He it is Who created all things, and He alone has full knowledge of all things; That is God, your Lord! No god there is but He, the Creator of all things; Then give your worship to Him; And He it is Who looks after the safety and well-being of all. (Quran 6:102-103)

Lord - Concept and History
A perspective and analysis based on the Holy Quran on the concept of Lord God(Rabb in Arabic) in Islam and some other religions and how it was understood by various nations in history.
The Most Beautiful Names belong to Allah

The most beautiful names belong to God: so call on Him by them; but shun
such men as use profanity in His names: for what they do, they will soon be requited. (The Holy Quran, 7:180)


Concept of Lord God by the Jews and Christians

After Pharaoh's people, the next in historical order are the Israelites and those people who adopted the Jewish religion or Christianity. In their case, there can obviously be no question about their either not acknowledging the existence of God or not believing in His being the Ilah and the Rabb. The Qur'an itself affirms their belief in Him on the point and the question which therefore arises is of the particular error for which they were characterized in the Qur'an as "those who went astray". (Quran 1:7)

A brief answer is:

Say (O' Muhammed): "O' people of the Book: Do not exaggerate concerning your faith, and adopt not the wrong notions of those who have gone astray before you, who misled many others, and themselves too strayed from the straight path." (Quran 5:77)

From this, one may conclude that, in essence, the Jews and Christians too were guilty of the same error into which others had fallen earlier, and that in their case this arose out of exaggerated piety. Let us go into the matter in some detail, with the help of the Qur'an:

(i) And the Jews said: "Uzair (Ezra) is son of God, while the Christians said, "Isa (Jesus) is son of God." (Quran 9:30)

(ii) It was kufr on the part of Christians, to say that God was the same as Jesus son of Mary; though Jesus had himself said, for a fact, "O' sons of Israel, give your 'ibadah to Allah. Who is also your Rabb and my Rabb." (Quran 5:72)

(iii) Verily those who said 'that God is one of three, committed kufr, for there is but one Ilah and there is no ilah but He. (Quran 5:73)


(iv) And there will come a time (the Day of Judgment) when God will ask "O' Jesus, son of Mary, did you tell people to take you and your mother as ilahs besides Myself?" to which Jesus will reply, "Glory be to you! How could I have dared say that which I had no right to utter!" (Quran 5:116)

(v) It is not for any person that, after being given the Book, and being endowed with hikmah [Literally, this word means wisdom; but when used in reference to a Prophet, it means that special wisdom which comes automatically after investment with the office of Prophethood, and which enables the Prophet to understand and expound the implications, and requirements of the Divine Injunctions. A. A. Maududi] and invested with Prophethood, he should go about telling people to give up God and instead give their allegiance and 'ibadah to him. Far more fitting it is that he should say: "Believe firmly in Allah as the Rabb (in every sense of the word), as you find it written in His Book, and as you learn of yourselves and teach others." Nor, again, is it for a prophet to tell the people to regard the angels and the prophets as rabbs. Would he enjoin kufr to you after you have become Muslims? (Quran 3:79-80)

What we learn from the relevant verses is that the first error of the Jews and Christians was to raise their Prophets, and saints, and the angel, etc., to the status of divinity out of exaggerated regard for them, to believe them to have a say in the ordering of the universe and its affairs, to worship and address their prayers to them, treat them as partners in rububiyyah and in godhood in the supernatural sense, and to believe that they could remit their sins and come to their rescue and protect them from misfortune and disasters.

Their second error lay in their making even their scribes and hermits into rabbs, besides God (cf.9:31). In other words, the people whose real function was to expound God's law to others, and to reform the people morally and spiritually to make their conduct conform to Divine precepts were gradually assigned authority to determine, on their own, what was to be treated as forbidden and what as permitted, without reference to what was said in the Book. They could forbid any practices they did not approve, and institute any others they fancied. And in this way both Jews and Christians fell into the same two basic errors as that into which the people of Prophets Nuh and Ibrahim (on whom both be peace), the 'Aadites and the Thamud and the people of Madyan and others had fallen earlier. Like them, they too made the angels and their religious leaders to be partners with God in Rububiyyah in the supernatural sense, and in moral, cultural and political spheres too. And so they began to take their cultural, economic, moral and political principles from human beings, disregarding the Divine injunctions, until they reached a stage about which the Qur'an says:

Have you noticed the people who were given a portion of the Book of God, but who (instead of making it the basis for their conduct), believed in jibt and taghoot? (Quran 4:51)

Say (O' Muhammad): "Shall I tell you who are worse as to their ultimate fate with Allah than even the fasiqs [A fasiq, according to the Qur'an is one who breaks his covenant with Allah, who severs the ties between Him and His creatures and between man and man, and who creates mischief upon earth (cf. note in Tafhim-ul-Qur'an. Vol.1. p.61. relative to 2-27-2). A. A. Maududi]. It is those who drew the curse of God upon them, those who invited His wrath, and of whom many were turned into apes and swine by His Command, and who gave their worship to taghoot; they are the lowest in degree, and the farthest astray from the straight path." (Quran 5:60)

The word jibt is a comprehensive term for all myths and superstitions, embracing such superstitious things as magic, the art of the occult, black magic, necromancy, witch-craft, soothsaying, divination, the belief in talismans or lucky stones or unlucky colors or numbers or natural phenomena, etc., or in the influence of the heavenly bodies on human affairs. As for taghoot, this term applies to every person, or group of persons, or organization or institution which, instead of submitting to God and His Injunctions, rebels against them and virtually sets up himself or itself as god instead, or is so set up by people. So when the Jews and Christians committed the two errors indicated above, the result of the first was that different kinds of superstitious beliefs took hold of their minds and of the second that their scribes and hermits, etc., gradually came to assume the same right to tell people what to do and what not as had been presumConcept of Lord God in Islam

Allah - The One and Only God - Lord - Concept and History
Concept of Lord God in Islam

The foregoing detailed exposition of the misguided conceptions of various pre-Islamic people make it patently clear that from earliest times to the revelation of the Qur'an, none of those whom it mentions as the transgressors, the misguided, and the astray, actually denied the existence of God, or His being the Rabb and the ilah. All, however, went wrong in much the same ways in dividing the attributes of rububiyyah, in its five different senses, into two separate compartments.

Insofar as such attributes of Allah as His being the Cherisher, the Provider, and the Protector and Helper of the creatures in the transcendental sense were concerned, the people regarded them as something apart from the rest. And, although in this sphere they did regard Allah as the Supreme Rabb, they also believed that the angels and various gods, the genii, and invisible forces, the stars, and other heavenly bodies, the Prophets and saints and other holy men, also had different shares in this rububiyyah.

As for the remaining attributes, namely, Allah's being the Supreme Sovereign, the Fountainhead of authority, the Supreme Law-giver, and the Supreme Lord of all creation etc., the people either assigned these roles wholly to particular human beings or, while assigning them to God in theory, in practice treated the entire rububiyyah in moral, cultural, and political spheres as vesting in these beings.

It was for the task of removal of both these types of misconceptions that there were ordained all the different Prophets from time to time (may peace be upon them) and, finally, Allah sent Muhammad (peace be upon him), as His last Prophet. All of the Prophets called to man to believe that there was but one Rabb, that is, Allah, in all of the various senses of the word, and that rububiyyah was not divisible nor was any portion of it available to any creature. The management and control of the universe, they emphasized, was centered is One Authority only, the Authority Who alone had created it, entirely to His own Grand Design and purpose, and Who exercised both de jure and de facto rule over all its affairs, and no-one had any share either in the creation or the running of the universe. As the Center of all authority, God alone was and is the Rabb, in all the senses of the word, both in transcendental matters and the temporal affairs of men. He alone was and is worthy of all worship, of being made the focus of all adoration and prayer. He alone listens to all prayers and He alone is worthy of our reliance and capable of providing for the needs of all too. He alone is at the same time the King, the Lord of the Universe and the source of all law and authority, and He alone has therefore the right to lay down what is right and what is wrong and what ought or ought not to be done. It is in the very nature of things a misconceived notion to think of rububiyyah as something which could be split up into compartments. It is an essential, and exclusive attribute of Allah and; hence, obviously and necessarily indivisible.

This call of the various Prophets (on whom be peace), is brought out in the Qur'an in many a place, e.g.:

Verily, your Rabb is Allah (alone)-He Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and then established Himself on the Mighty Throne; He it is Who draws the night as a veil over the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession; the sun and the moon, and the stars are all subservient to His Law and Commands; Verily, it is patent that all creation is His, and authority too vests in Him, and Most Blessed is he, the Lord of all the Worlds. (Quran 7:54)

Ask them (O Prophet), "Who is it who provides sustenance for you from the heavens and the earth? Is it He in Whose power are hearing and sight, and Who brings forth the living from the dead and the dead from the living, and Who rules and regulates all affairs?" (If you ask) they will say, "It is Allah (Who does all this)." Ask them, then, "Wherefore, then, do you not fear Him (and change your ways)?" (Say): "Such is Allah, your real Rabb and true, and, apart from Truth, what remains but error, and so wherefore do you get turned astray?’ (Quran 10:31,32)

He (it is Who) created the heavens and the earth in Truth; He it is Who makes the night overlap the day and the day overlap the night, and made, the son and the moon subservient (to His Law), each one following a course till an appointed time … such is God, your Rabb; His is the Kingdom and there is no ilah but He; and why, then, do you keep getting turned away? (Quran 39:5-6)

Allah it is Who made the night for you that you may find rest and peace in it, and the day in which you are enabled to see ... Such is Allah, your Rabb Creator of every thing. There is no ilah but He; so why are you deluded into straying? ... Allah it is Who made the earth a place for you to live and rest upon, and the sky a roof over you, and gave you shapes; and good shapes at that, and provided for your provision good and wholesome food; such is Allah, your Rabb, and, so, blessed be He, the Lord of all the Worlds. He alone is the Living (One); there is no ilah, but He and to Him alone then address all your prayers. (Quran 40:61-65)

And Allah (it was Who) created you from clay…He merges night into day and day into night, and made the sun and the moon obey His Law, each following its course until an appointed timer Such is Allah, your Rabb; in Him vests all Sovereignty, while those; on call to besides him possess no such authority; and if you call upon them, they hear not your call and if they did they would not make any reply and, on the Day of Judgement, they will (to you discomfiture), (but) repudiate (and disown) your association of them with God. (Quran 35:11,13-14)

And to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth, and all are abjectly obedient and subservient to Him..., He propounds to you a similitude from your own (experience): Has any of your slaves a share in owning any of the things which We have bestowed upon you? Do they equal right, with you in the ownership and use of these things? Do you fear them as you fear your equals? Thus do we expound arguments to point the way to reality to those with wisdom and understanding, but wrong-doers merely follow their own baseless notions… Therefore (O' Prophet, and those of you who believe in him), set your face steadily and truly to the Faith; establish God's handiwork according to the pattern on which He has read, mankind; no change let there be in the work wrought by Him. This is the straight and correct road, but many among mankind know this not. (Quran 30:26,28,20,30)

And, (the wrongdoers) did not appreciate God (and His attributes) in proper measure, and (they will see that) on the Day of judgment He will hold the earth in his fist, and the heavens will be rolled-up in His right hand; blessed is He and far above the (supposed) partners they associate with Him. (Quran 39:67).

And praise all is due to Allah alone, the Rabb of the heavens and the Rabb of the earth, and Rabb of all the Worlds; and to Him belongs all Greatness and Glory throughout the heavens and the earth; and He is exalted in Power, and the All-Wise. (Quran 45:36,37)

He is the Rabb of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them; so give your 'ibadah to Him (O' Prophet) and remain steadfast in your worship of Him; (and) do yen know of aught like Him? (Quran 19:65)

And Allah (alone) knows the hidden realities of the heavens and the earth, and to Him are referred all matters, so give your 'ibadah to Him (alone), and rely not upon any but Him. (Quran 11:123)

He is the Rabb of the East and of the West; No ilah there is but He, and so entrust all your affairs unto Him (alone). (Quran 73:9)

Verily this brotherhood of yours (that is, of all the prophets) is a single brotherhood, and I am your Rabb, wherefore give your 'ibadah to Me. Men have apportioned rububiyyah and the duty of 'ibadah on their own (without any sanction from Us), and all of them will, ultimately, return to Us. (Quran 21:92-93)

Obey that which has been sent down to you from your Rabb, and do not obey others besides Him (as supposed protectors or guardians). (Quran 7:3)

Say (O Prophet): "O people of the Book: Pledge your creed to that which is common between us and you, that we do not give our 'ibadah to any but Allah and that we associate none with Him, and that we do not asks any human being a rabb besides Him. (Quran 3:64)

Say (O Prophet): I seek refuge with the (Sole) Rabb of all mankind, the (Sole) Monarch over all mankind, and the (Sole) Ilah of all." (Quran 114:1-3)

So whosoever looks forth to meeting his Rabb let him do pious deeds, and associate not any with his worship of Him. (Quran 18:110)

The foregoing verses bring out as clearly as possible that the Holy Qur'an uses rububiyyah as exactly synonymous with sovereignty, and the concept of Rabb it presents is that Allah is the Absolute Monarch of all creation, and its sole Lord and Master, and, as such:

He is our Cherisher and Provider and Sustainer, and of all that constitutes creation; It is He Who looks after all our needs, governs all our affairs, and is alone worthy of our entrusting all our affairs to His discretion; It is by virtue of this very attribute that faith. in Him is the only right basis on which to build up the structure of human life in proper manner, and attachment only to His central Personage is capable of bringing together different individuals and groups and forming them into an Ummah.

He alone is worthy of the 'ibadah, and submission, and worship, of all humanity and other creatures; and He alone is the Lord, Master, and Ruler, of ourselves, and all else besides.

The pagans, whether Arabs or others, have always committed the error, which continues even today, of splitting up the comprehensive concept of rububiyyah into its five facets as if they could exist separately or be vested in different beings. The Qur'an lives most cogent and irrefutable arguments that the Universe is one, and that there is no room in it at all for Supreme Authority and rububiyyah vesting in any but the same Being. The very fact that the universe is subject to one supreme law shows that rububiyyah is reserved solely for Allah, Who alone brought the universe into existence. Therefore, whoever attributes any portion of rububiyyah to any but Him seeks but to depart from or ignore the ultimate fundamental Reality, to turn away from the Reality of the universe, to rebel against Truth, and, by thus going against what exists, only brings loss to himself and ultimate disaster.


ed by those who were open rebels against God.
 
Thus it follows that if we have an eternal Father that there is also a etneral Son.

the entire crucifixion philosphy depends on jesus dying as god (because only then can his sacrifice bear the sins of humanity or whatever)- if jesus is really eternal then he cannot by definition die - you've said it yourself.

eternal life = no death = no crucifixion

i have thought a long time about this and there is no logical comeback, i leave it to you to present more made up philosophies and concepts to explain. :hmm:

for the life of me i cannot begin to comprehend your concept that jesus and god - TWO DISTINCT GODS, with infinite power - have this intimate relationship, where they need to have conversations to show they love each other or whatever. :raging:

Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?’--"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’” (Matthew 27:46). (jesus' last words on the cross)

that doesnt sound like a very caring relationship to me. it seems poor jesus has no say in the matter.:hmm:
 
Since God is the eternal Father, then there has never been a time when God was not the Father.

You said that there was no time where the father was not really a father .
I am very sure that I asked a question about who did create Jesus and a Christian here answered that it was God "the father"....I can't tell where and when exactly I posted that, but anyways what is your answer to such question?


Rather we are talking about the nature and intimacy of their relationship. How Jesus and God the Father share the same nature. Thus, if Jesus shares the same nature with God the Father, then he too must be God
If they are both Gods sharing the same features, and even communicate with each other, then why they don't "pray" or lets use your word "converse" with each other?
why its only one way from the son to the father?


While the term prayer is never used to describe the Father's communication with the Son, it is clear that the Father and the Son do engage in two-way communication.
Is it really two-way communication?
because as I said they don't pray to each other. They are equal in features, so there must be no problem of any of them to "converse" with the other!


And that happens in the form of prayer. Interestingly enough, if one does a word search you will find that scripture also never mentions that Jesus prayed to the Father. It says things like "I will ask the Father", but never that he prayed to the Father.
Didn't he say "My God! My God why have you forsaken me?" is he his God when Jesus himself is a God? Can a God call another God "My God"?

As to the Holy Spirit praying, we actually do see this in scripture. People are often mentioned praying "in the Spirit". But perhaps the verse that sheds the most light on this is Romans 8:26 -- "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express." So, because we cannot express to God what we want to say, God himself (in the person of his Holy Spirit), comes and helps us (that is what it means to intercede) to express what we could not say and in this instance, since he goes so far as to pray on our behalf, it really might be consider as God praying to God.
Interesting!
if someone need something from God and the spirit came as you said to intercede for people in what they cant express. Can't they pray to the Spirit himself directly to grant them what they wish for?

Why the Spirit has to pray on behalf of them to another God?

Another thing, what about the "communication" between Jesus and the holy spirit? did anyone pray to the other?


At the end, thanks a lot for your continuous answering to most of my questions here. I really appreciate your time.

Peace
 
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:sl:

Wether english is my native language or not does not have anything to do with this discussion other then you want to claim that your better then me in english because you are a native speaker and I am not? lol [just for the record english is my 4th language *winks*]

Apologising is not the same as saying sorry, what shows this fact is that it is easy for you to say I apologise but very very difficult for you to utter the simple words I am sorry. Deep down you might still think you have not done anything wrong.

Your point is to show that the Jews have beliefs that have come from paganism. However, pointing to an anacronist belief amongst the Jews of Medinah, one that is not reflective of Judaism as a whole, simply does not show this. That is what I thought you were doing form the start and why I challenged you to show me where it was in Jewish scripture. I can point to all sorts of beliefs and behaviors on the parts of Muslims as well -- including, I kid you not, examples of some Muslims who worship Jesus as the Son of God. You would object if I removed the qualifier from the front of that statement and simply said "Muslims worship Jesus as the Son of God." And you would be right to do so. But you have in essence done the very thing with regard to the Jews, and it is just as objectionable there as well. For Jews do not believe Ezra to be the Son of God, any more than Muslims believe Jesus to be the Son of God. And to use that quote to either assert or imply that they do, when in fact they do not, is to distort the truth. That is my point!

Wow so you knew my point all this time! Why play stupid and in the dark Grace Seeker? Why ask about something you knew?

Your point is flawed, because your still stuck several posts behind, I never claimed that all jews believe 'uzair is son of God, no one ever said that, do you not see what everyone else sees on their screen?

What the jews of madeenah did was to make up lies against Allah and say about the torah what was never in it and similarly the christians said about jesus what he never said about himself! Do you not understand the point! You are right in saying that this is to disort the truth but not on my part it is on the part of the jews and christians who said against Allah a blatant lie. And similarly any Muslim who you might qoute worship Jesus than he has lied against his scripture i.e the Qur'aan because there is no such verse to be found. Similarly any jew or christian who say God had a son be it jesus or 'uzair they have clearly lied!
 
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Danah and tango i think you are playing a dangerous game regarding our religion and i doubt about your muslims please saythe truth what is your real religion because a muslim cannot talk like that even it should be no doubt about ALLAH SWT so please say the true
 
Your point is flawed, because your still stuck several posts behind, I never claimed that all jews believe 'uzair is son of God, no one ever said that, do you not see what everyone else sees on their screen?


Khaldoun you are wrong because in the quran said that the jews believe that uzair is son of god and the christians said isa jesus is son of god a3ozobillah and this is the proof

(i) And the Jews said: "Uzair (Ezra) is son of God, while the Christians said, "Isa (Jesus) is son of God." (Quran 9:30)


plus you can read my post and you can proof to them that they are wrong
 
Danah and tango i think you are playing a dangerous game regarding our religion and i doubt about your muslims please saythe truth what is your real religion because a muslim cannot talk like that even it should be no doubt about ALLAH SWT so please say the true

lol, thanks for making me laugh sis.....I wont take the part about me being Muslim or not seriously though!

dear? I don't think that I am saying anything wrong. I am just trying to understand the faith of Christians NOTHING else and I found many who are helping in answering my questions here.
 
:sl:

Sisiter Marriyah please read every single post in this thread before posting again.
 
Interestingly enough, if one does a word search you will find that scripture also never mentions that Jesus prayed to the Father. It says things like "I will ask the Father", but never that he prayed to the Father. Yet, he taught his disciples to pray to the Father. And he spent time in prayer in conversation with the Father. So, here we have the conversation, but not as if directed outside of himself. Almost what you said, with just one modification. Jesus is not an example of God praying to himself, but of him praying with himself.

except here

Matthew 26:36Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."

39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

and here:

40Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

42He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

and here:

43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

and here:

Mark 14 32They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, "Sit here while I pray." 33He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34"My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," he said to them. "Stay here and keep watch."

35Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36"Abba,[e] Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

and here:

37Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Simon," he said to Peter, "are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour? 38Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

39Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him.

SubhanAllah, i wonder if that is it?

ooops, no. here:

39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

kind of reminds of these:

Romans 3:5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

and one mustn't leave this out:

Main Entry: pray
Pronunciation: \ˈprā\
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French prier, praer, preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frāga question, frāgēn to ask, Sanskrit pṛcchati he asks
Date: 13th century

transitive verb 1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2 : to get or bring by praying intransitive verb 1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

prayer
1  /prɛər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [prair] Show IPA

–noun
1. a devout petition to God or an object of worship.
2. a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.
3. the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.
4. a formula or sequence of words used in or appointed for praying: the Lord's Prayer.
5. prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer.
6. that which is prayed for.
7. a petition; entreaty.
8. the section of a bill in equity, or of a petition, that sets forth the complaint or the action desired.
9. a negligible hope or chance: Do you think he has a prayer of getting that job?
Origin:
1250–1300; ME preiere < OF < ML precāria, n. use of fem. of precārius obtained by entreaty, equiv. to prec- (s. of prex) prayer + -ārius -ary; cf. precarious

hmmm, how can God "worship, supplicate, adore or confess to God?"
unless of course, Jesus really isn't God!

:wa:
 
lol, thanks for making me laugh sis.....I wont take the part about me being Muslim or not seriously though!

dear? I don't think that I am saying anything wrong. I am just trying to understand the faith of Christians NOTHING else and I found many who are helping in answering my questions here.

Sometimes is good to laugh especially when there is serious things involved , as you are muslim you dont need to know about the christians faith from the christians because you have the holly quran that explain everything to you without involving with a serious matters which you will give sheytan opportunity to play with your mind and religion and ALLAH SWT knows best

Read my post and you will know what you need and you can see even i post it twice nobody could discuss it with me because they knows iam right ALHAMDOLIALLAH , They are going only to the weak muslims people
 
And similarly any Muslim who you might qoute worship Jesus than he has lied against his scripture i.e the Qur'aan because there is no such verse to be found. Similarly any jew or christian who say God had a son be it jesus or 'uzair they have clearly lied!
Yes, exactly. Any Muslims who says this has lied against his scripture. For this reason I don't evaluate Islam based on the practices of a handful of Muslims, but on the teaching of the Islamic scriptures.


And if the Jews of madeenah ever said "uzair is son of God", they were likewise lying against their scriptures. So, I'm suggesting to you to evaluate Judaism based on the practices of a handful of Jews in Madeenah is the err you are making -- and you are making it when you go on to say things like
And yes the jews of madeenah are considered as any other jews so they are not some kind of minority that can be brushed aside.
or
And Uzair being son of God is indeed part of Judaism, because this was a belief held by jews themselves
-- because to say the things you have said in the way that you have said them, whether you intended it or not, is to direct the statement against all Jews not just those at Madeenah. And that is the err.


In another post you said:
... unless you want to role out the jews of madeenah as not being real jews because they lived somewhere distant as the arabic peninsula.
I would indeed rule out the Jews of Madeenah as not being real Jews, not because of where they lived, but because what they teach is not consistent with established Jewish thought. So, even if they have coopted ideas from pagan cultures, it does not say anything about Judaism as a whole. And that is why I asked why you made reference to it -- except of course I do understand how the verse applies to Christians, for it does correctly represent Christian teachings. As the practices of this small enclave of Jews of Madeenah simply is not representative of Jews as a whole it seems in unfair to refer to them in a discussion of Jews beliefs and practices, just as it would be unfair for me to talk about Islam by referring to that handful of Muslims I know of who worship Jesus as the Son of God.



Now I have said it twice before, so this will be the third and final time, I am sorry for jumping to conclusions. And I regret leading this conversation far afield. But, no, I don't regret asking the questions I have asked, nor for attempting to make my point. I don't think there is anything wrong in that intent, only in not doing a better job of seeking clarification before I made assumptions about your meaning and began to dispute you on them prior to being sure of what you meant. For returning to the same point over and over again, I don't apologize. It made no sense to me to move on when that issue remained unresolved.
 
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