Christian worship of Jesus..

[Grace Seeker]

except here

and here:

and here:

and here:

and here:

SubhanAllah, i wonder if that is it?

ooops, no. here:


kind of reminds of these:


and one mustn't leave this out:





hmmm, how can God "worship, supplicate, adore or confess to God?"
unless of course, Jesus really isn't God!

:wa:

Nice list. Now, where in any of them does it say that Jesus prayed to the Father? I affirm very much that he was in constant prayer and communication with God the Father.

As to your definitions, I would suggest that you would do better to research not the definitions of the English word "prayer" in a secular dictionary, but of the Greek words that lay behind the translation in a dictionary of NT terms. I will give you some help. The word used in each of the passages you referenced is prosukomai (or a form of it) and does not have anything to do with worship. It it does however carry with it the idea of making a request of or addressing a diety, and of course in talking with the Father, Jesus is conversing with diety. (Interesting then that this word is used to describe prayers directed toward Jesus in Revelation 5:8.)


Now, though your list doesn't include it, I did make a mistake in saying that Jesus never is listed a "praying to God." Luke 6:12 reports "One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God." So, I do stand corrected on that, even if you aren't the one to find it. The preposition in this instance comes from the object of the sentence, "God", being in the genitive case with the article "tou theou" so that it expresses relationship between the nouns for prayer and God. The more literal translation of the phrase in which the term is found would read as follows: "and [he] (implied) was spending the whole night in the prayer of God."

This is the only such case that I was able to find in scripture where Jesus is spoken of as praying to anyone, and I don't think it does any damage to my overall thoughts on the matter. But I did want to correct myself.

 

[Danah]

Sometimes is good to laugh especially when there is serious things involved , as you are muslim you dont need to know about the christians faith from the christians because you have the holly quran that explain everything to you without involving with a serious matters which you will give sheytan opportunity to play with your mind and religion and ALLAH SWT knows best

Read my post and you will know what you need and you can see even i post it twice nobody could discuss it with me because they knows iam right ALHAMDOLIALLAH , They are going only to the weak muslims people

I read your post and it is amazing without any doubt, I understand your concern. Yeah I have the holy Quran which I am proud of. I don't have any doubt in my faith Alhumdulilah. There is no harm in learning others' faiths. I don't know about you but I do have the interest in knowing about different faiths.

I don't want this thread to turn to a discussion between me and you about that issue. If you have anything more to say you are welcomed to PM inshaAllah

 

[Khaldun]

I am glad that we have finally reached an agreement. The Jews who say 'Uzair is God and the Christians who say Jesus is God and then end up worshipping these people have spoken a lie against their religions. Just like the Qur'aan said.

Most surely there is a party amongst those who distort the Book with their tongue that you may consider it to be (a part) of the Book, and they say, It is from Allah, while it is not from Allah, and they tell a lie against Allah whilst they know.

It is not meet for a mortal that Allah should give him the Book and the wisdom and prophethood, then he should say to men: Be my servants rather than Allah's; but rather (he would say): Be worshippers of the Lord because of your teaching the Book and your reading (it yourselves). [Suurah Ale Imraan]

 

[Supreme]

Nice list. Now, where in any of them does it say that Jesus prayed to the Father? I affirm very much that he was in constant prayer and communication with God the Father.

As to your definitions, I would suggest that you would do better to research not the definitions of the English word "prayer" in a secular dictionary, but of the Greek words that lay behind the translation in a dictionary of NT terms. I will give you some help. The word used in each of the passages you referenced is prosukomai (or a form of it) and does not have anything to do with worship. It it does however carry with it the idea of making a request of or addressing a diety, and of course in talking with the Father, Jesus is conversing with diety. (Interesting then that this word is used to describe prayers directed toward Jesus in Revelation 5:8.)


Now, though your list doesn't include it, I did make a mistake in saying that Jesus never is listed a "praying to God." Luke 6:12 reports "One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God." So, I do stand corrected on that, even if you aren't the one to find it. The preposition in this instance comes from the object of the sentence, "God", being in the genitive case with the article "tou theou" so that it expresses relationship between the nouns for prayer and God. The more literal translation of the phrase in which the term is found would read as follows: "and [he] (implied) was spending the whole night in the prayer of God."

This is the only such case that I was able to find in scripture where Jesus is spoken of as praying to anyone, and I don't think it does any damage to my overall thoughts on the matter. But I did want to correct myself.

Nice post brother, raises some very good arguments.

I did and i know what iam talking about and you too you know what iam talking about i took it from your post answers

Why are you even in the comparitive religion section in the first place, if you're so against Muslims discussing it?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I am glad that we have finally reached an agreement. The Jews who say 'Uzair is God and the Christians who say Jesus is God and then end up worshipping these people have spoken a lie against their religions.

I agree that those few Jews who say that Ezra is the Son of God have spoken a lie against their religion. I don't know of any (including the Jews of Medina) who are ever reported to have said that 'Uzair is God. (Isn't the phrase in the Qur'an that they called him the Son of God?) Perhaps you mistyped or mis-spoke in saying that? If not, and that is what you meant to say, please, educate with regard to that reference.

As for Christians who say Jesus is God, I would not agree that this is a lie against their religion. I submit to you that it is indeed the very heart of our religion. It is not in accordance with Islam, and you may hold that Islam is true and that Christianity is false. But (unless you are Grenville or Arius) it is not a lie against the Christian faith to say that Jesus is God. And to say that Jesus is the Son of God is all over our scriptures.

Beyond that, I too am glad that we have reached a better understanding. And so we are back understanding that Christians worship Jesus because they understand that in referring to Jesus as the Son of God, it is a claim for divinity for him as well.

Perhaps we need to spend some more time discussing what was meant when, in the Christian scriptures, Jesus disciples and others in the early church spoke of him by the title "son of God"? By the time of the patristic church (200-300 AD) this title was clearly understood to be a reference to Jesus' divinity. But was it actually understood that way by those who themselves wrote the scriptures?

 

[Khaldun]

The son of God is a diety and something that is worshipped. Thus that would make him a God aswell. In arabic a God is something that is worshipped, if you worship money then that becomes your God.

Hang on why did you dismiss the Jewish thing so quickly but stuck to the Christian beliefe. Please show me where in your scripture Jesus says he is son of God.

 

[mariyyah]

Danah sister iam proud of to hear from you that you are ALHAMDOLIALLAH , Iam muslim as well ALHAMDOLIALLAH

 

[mariyyah]

all i can say that the engeel and torat were cheated and thats why they lost their mind and way and religion and they are talking anything without any sense nor any proof but INSHALLAH they will regret when they will face ALLAH SWT then they will ask for forgivness but it will be late for them so no need to waste your time explaning to them because they are stubborn and they dont wanna accept anything

 

[Supreme]

I agree that those few Jews who say that Ezra is the Son of God have spoken a lie against their religion. I don't know of any (including the Jews of Medina) who are ever reported to have said that 'Uzair is God. (Isn't the phrase in the Qur'an that they called him the Son of God?) Perhaps you mistyped or mis-spoke in saying that? If not, and that is what you meant to say, please, educate with regard to that reference.

As for Christians who say Jesus is God, I would not agree that this is a lie against their religion. I submit to you that it is indeed the very heart of our religion. It is not in accordance with Islam, and you may hold that Islam is true and that Christianity is false. But (unless you are Grenville or Arius) it is not a lie against the Christian faith to say that Jesus is God. And to say that Jesus is the Son of God is all over our scriptures.

Beyond that, I too am glad that we have reached a better understanding. And so we are back understanding that Christians worship Jesus because they understand that in referring to Jesus as the Son of God, it is a claim for divinity for him as well.

Perhaps we need to spend some more time discussing what was meant when, in the Christian scriptures, Jesus disciples and others in the early church spoke of him by the title "son of God"? By the time of the patristic church (200-300 AD) this title was clearly understood to be a reference to Jesus' divinity. But was it actually understood that way by those who themselves wrote the scriptures?

One confusing thing I have discovered through reading the Gospels is that Jesus refers to Himself as the 'son of Man'. Example:

6And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

(Luke 18:6-8)

Now, you have obviously been a Christian longer than I have, and you are clearly more capable of answering theological questions than me. So, may I ask, are the phrases 'son of Man' and 'Son of God' synonymous, and if not, what does the former mean?

God Bless.

 

[Humbler_359]

Older Manuscripts found in Palestine say that Jesus is a Prophet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeOd9KyyvF0

Christians perhaps so confusing these days in their faith systems.

For example:
Catholics
Baptists
Jehovah Witness (believe Jesus(PBUH) is Prophet but son of God only)
Amish
Evangelical
Anglicans
Methodists
so on.....

At last point:


"O mankind! Indeed God’s promise, of resurrection and of other issues mentioned in the Quran, is true. So do not let the life of this world deceive you, from believing in all of that, and do not let the Deceiver, Satan, deceive you concerning God, on account of His forbearance and respiting of sinners in this life. " (Qur'an 35:5)

"The Truth (comes) from they Lord alone; so be not of those who doubt." ( Qur'an 3:60)

"This is the true account; There is no god except God; and only One God-He is indeed the Exalted in Power, the Wise. " (Qur'an 33:62)

 

[mkh4JC]

The son of God is a diety and something that is worshipped. Thus that would make him a God aswell. In arabic a God is something that is worshipped, if you worship money then that becomes your God.

Hang on why did you dismiss the Jewish thing so quickly but stuck to the Christian beliefe. Please show me where in your scripture Jesus says he is son of God.

I gave you these verses earlier in the thread and you ignored me:

'Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemeth; because I said, I am the Son of God?

If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the FAther is in me, and I in him.' St. John 10: 34-38.

 

[Humbler_359]

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God." (Mark 10:18).

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord:" (Mark 12:29)

"Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? . . ." (Matthew 27:46)- (why are you forsaking me?)

 

[mkh4JC]

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God." (Mark 10:18).

That was rhetorical. Even devils and demons when they saw Christ acknowledged and recognized who he was:

'And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known.' Mark 3: 11-12.

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord:" (Mark 12:29)

He is one, but he is one God in Three Persons. The knowledge that God has a Son is what is called in the New Testament a hidden truth. Meaning, if God didn't send his Son into the world to redeem us, the nature of God would have remained a mystery.

"Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? . . ." (Matthew 27:46)- (why are you forsaking me?)

That was an expression of Jesus' humanity. He was fully God, then he came into the world and added humanity to his divinity.

 

[Supreme]

Brother Fedos, may you address my question on the previous page?

 

[mkh4JC]

One confusing thing I have discovered through reading the Gospels is that Jesus refers to Himself as the 'son of Man'. Example:

(Luke 18:6-8)

Now, you have obviously been a Christian longer than I have, and you are clearly more capable of answering theological questions than me. So, may I ask, are the phrases 'son of Man' and 'Son of God' synonymous, and if not, what does the former mean?

God Bless.

Well, Son of Man is just a title ascribed to Jesus. It doesn't mean that he isn't divine or that he's not the Son of God. Jesus has many titles, the Lamb of God for instance. He's the Son of God and the Son of Man. Son of Man is in reference to his humanity. Here in Daniel we find the term Son of Man used.

'I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of Man (Jesus) came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days (the Father), and they brought him near before him.

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.' Daniel 7: 13-14.

Both of these verses are Messianic.

 

[Khaldun]

That is pretty convienient. Why not the other way around Fedos? Why isnt son of God just a title?

 

[mkh4JC]

That is pretty convienient. Why not the other way around Fedos? Why isnt son of God just a title?

Well, it's not. Son of Man refers to Christ's humanity, and his relationship to mankind in his incarnate state. Son of God refers to his divinity. I've already shown how in the Old Testament that it is taught that the Son of Man's (ie the Lord Jesus Christ's) kingdom will have no end, and how that all nations will be under his rule (ie the thousand year reign of Christ). This is taught of Jesus in both the Old and New Testaments, the Old Testament points to Jesus is what I'm getting at.

 

[Grace Seeker]

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God." (Mark 10:18).

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord:" (Mark 12:29)

"Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? . . ." (Matthew 27:46)- (why are you forsaking me?)

All of these have been addressed before. If you are really interested in seeking edification regarding them we can help you find them. But if you're just being an apologist, you should know that you're just wasting your time with such posts as none of the verses help your cause -- not with Muslims because they are already convinced of what you say, and not with Christians because we know that the true meaning and context behind these passages do not speak negatively to our understanding of Jesus.

 

[Grace Seeker]

That is pretty convienient. Why not the other way around Fedos? Why isnt son of God just a title?

Indeed, it is also used as a title in some situations. In short the terms "Son of God" and "Son of Man" both have histories of being used as Messanic titles. But they are used differently by different groups of people to mean different things. That they are both applied to Jesus tells us that the NT writers saw Jesus a fulfilling both of these Messianic roles and then some, including expressing the hypostatic union -- the fact that they understood him to be both fully human and fully God at the same time.

The longer answer I would give cites 13 pages of academic exposition from professor George Ladd on each term and another 57 pages technical discussion of their respective Greek etymologies from The Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Colin Brown, ed.) if that's really what you want.

 

[Danah]

^^ Grace Seeker, I am sure you didn't notice my post at page 5 otherwise you would surly reply. I am still waiting your reply "if" you have the time to address it.