Christianity or Islam?

[Mohsin]

Talk about the facts Ansar has brought up rather than simply stating your opinion, otherwise create a blog and write to your hearts content.

;D ;D Well said bro!

 

[Turin Turambar]

Dear friends,

I will go back to the "long message" otherwise I will be accused again of trying to avoid some issues. In any case that message is very rich so I will have fun for a long time...

Now I will touch upon the following assertion of Ansar Al-'Adl:

"The Shah of Persia sent his men to arrest and execute the Prophet Muhammad and the Roman Governate in Ghassan killed one of the Prophet's diplomats. Both are open acts of war. The persian and roman empires sought to crush the new Islamic empire, but their tyrannical rule failed."

So, the Roman Governor killed one of the prophet's diplomats and that was an open act of war. And that allowed the Muslim armies to invade and occupy Roman territory until today (Egypt and Syria were Roman provinces).
Because one diplomat had been killed the Muslim armies could invade and occupy FOR EVER territory belonging to another country and according to Ansar Al-'Adl that means that the Muslims were not aggressors in that war. So I cannot say that it was a conquest by force....because one diplomat had been killed before the invasion.

Would you apply that criterion today? I kind of like it after all. I would like it applied in the case of Iran. Iran held 52 Americans hostages for more than a year, participated in the murder of an American officer in Lebanon and the bombings of the Khobar Towers (American military installations in Saudi Arabia). Clearly acts of war.

So, according to Ansar Al-'Adl America could invade Iran, keep it occupied for ever, kill all Iranian males who opposed the invasion, rape captive (infidel) women, impose a special humilliation tax on Muslims (of which Christians would be exempt) and incorporate the whole country to America.

And that wouldn't qualify as aggression according to Ansar Al-'Adl because there was previously an act of war justifying the invasion.

No, my friends, I wouldn't approve of that. And if you were fair you would recognize that it is exactly what happened back then. If you have any doubt about the sad conditions imposed on those who were invaded, please look for Bat Yeor on the Internet. He will tell you what it means to be a dhimmi. Don't wish that on others because you might get it for yourselves.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Turin,
Thanks for your post.

So, the Roman Governor killed one of the prophet's diplomats and that was an open act of war. And that allowed the Muslim armies to invade and occupy Roman territory until today (Egypt and Syria were Roman provinces).

Let's examine the historical details in some more depth, shall we:
-The Prophet Muhammad pbuh sent a messenger to the the Ghassan tribe, a governate of the Roman empire
-the Chieftain had the messenger killed, an act of war
-the Prophet Muhammad pbuh sent a small army to confront the Ghassan tribe, but the Ghassan tribe recieved re-inforcements from other parts of the Roman Empire, overwhelming the Muslim forces
-the Roman empire began to mobilize their forces at Tabuk and other regions in preparation to crush the new Islamic state
-a series of battles between the Roman empire and the Islamic state ensued, the latter emerging as victorious

So we see that the Muslims did not initiate agressions against the Roman empire, but the two were in a state of open war since the execution of the Muslim messenger.

Because one diplomat had been killed the Muslim armies could invade and occupy FOR EVER territory belonging to another country

Your reasoning is fallacious. Were the Muslims supposed to only have one battle and then sit and wait for the Roman empire to re-group and crush them?! When there was open war between the Roman and Islamic state, this is what lead to a series of battles to defeat the Roman forces and naturally the conquest was part of that.

Would you apply that criterion today? I kind of like it after all. I would like it applied in the case of Iran. Iran held 52 Americans hostages for more than a year, participated in the murder of an American officer in Lebanon and the bombings of the Khobar Towers (American military installations in Saudi Arabia). Clearly acts of war.

If two countries are at war with eachother, then invasion of territory is usually what happens.

Also, you have failed to consider the fact that the Roman and Persian empires were struggling to increase their power and dominion and sought to crush the new Islamic state. Iran is in no position to invade America, on the other hand.

kill all Iranian males who opposed the invasion

A blatant lie. Where is the evidence that Muslims killed non-combatant Roman males? The only people killed were enemy soldiers, obviously!

rape captive (infidel) women

Another blatant lie. Rape is a criminal act in Islam and your allegation regarding captive women has been refuted in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/8369-slave-girls.html

impose a special humilliation tax on Muslims (of which Christians would be exempt)

I believe you are referring to the Jizyah tax, which is another thing Anti-Islamists enjoy distorting in their campaign of spreading lies against Muslims. Jizyah has been explained here:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544994

Let's see whjat Non-Muslim historians say about Jizyah - from Sir Thomas Arnold:

This tax was not imposed on the Christians, as some would have us think, as a penalty for their refusal to accept the Muslim faith. Rather, it was paid by them in common with the other dhimmis or non-Muslim subjects of the state whose religion precluded them from serving in the army, in return for the protection secured for them by the arms of the Muslims. When the people of Hirah contributed the sum agreed upon, they expressly mentioned that they paid this jizyah on condition that ‘the Muslims and their leader protect us from those who would oppress us, whether they be Muslims or others.”​

Every country has its citizens pay taxes so why do you criticise the Islamic state?! Muslims pay Zakat and Non-Muslims pay Jizyah.

As for occupying the invaded territory, this is common to every empire, not just the Islamic state. There were no international treaties or coalitions to allow an empire to simply abandon conquered territory without the fear of the enemy empire reclaiming the land and using it to launch a counter-attack.

Peace

 

[Turin Turambar]

To Ansar Al-'Adl:

Although I am debating with you in other threads, I go back with enthusiasm to your original "long post" in this thread, of which I am answering different parts. Now I will touch upon the following:

I had said originally: "Islam KEEPS YOU IN POVERTY AND TYRANNY."

To which you answered "Then how did Islam make the world greatest civilization for over a thousand years??"

I think that this is one of the most important issues I would like to talk about because I see over and over again than one of the great reasons Muslims still believe in Islam is because of that "Golden Era" in which Islam was a leading civilization in the world. They are always longing for it and they base a good part of their whole defense of Islam in the fact that it existed. The uppermost question in the mind of Muslims seems to be: "If we could do it then, perhaps we can do it now, perhaps it is a matter of trying hard enough and those days will be back" or a different version of the same question is "How can Islam be wrong when it gave birth to that leading civilization?"

What has changed?

I will tell you. The source of power for a civilization has changed for ever. And this is why the “Golden Era” of Islam is over and it will never come back.

During the time in which Islam was powerful (and in fact in all previous periods of history) the main source of power for a civilization was military power. And before the advent of modern technology military power was based on how many soldiers you had and how ferocious in battle they were. And in this two respects Islam was excellent, because it put women in a social position in which their main function was to procreate new warriors and it gave men an ethical code in which war (especially for the defense and expansion of Islam) was the most highly valued activity. As a consequence, Islam was very powerful.

The Christian countries of Europe in general could not compare to Islam in terms of military qualities because of the peaceful nature of Christianity. Warriors were not highly praised and in fact to participate in war was usually considered sinful. But the Christian countries discovered a trick, and the monks (despised by Islam) were actually those who discovered it. It was a trick based on a new form of thinking, which is very difficult to describe but was highly effective. This new way of thinking gave birth to western philosophy and later western science and later western technology, modern economy and democracy. Since this discovery the source of power for a civilization is not anymore its number of soldiers but its technological and economic power. So today, it is not the society that has more and better soldiers the one that will dominate but the one that has more and better scientists and businessmen.

And on that account Christianity is much better than Islam, because it encourages peaceful activities, such as those of scientists, who are much more praised in the West than soldiers. In the world of Islam ferocity is still highly praised, as we can see almost every day. In the modern world having thousand of brave soldiers doesn’t add anything to your power, because a few scientists (who look very much like those despised Christian monks of old) can discover new weapons that can destroy any number of soldiers. That is why the West today can destroy Islam if it wants to, although an average western soldier is probably less ferocious than an average Muslim soldier. In fact more and more soldiers in the West are women…

That is why the same doctrine that gave power to Muslim countries in the past is today keeping them in poverty. The world of Islam is still very bad at using the modern way of thinking and that is why it is so poor, although it is following the same doctrine that once made it powerful. The doctrine is the same, but the times have changed.

The sooner Muslims recognize this truth and the fact that their Golden Era will never be back, the better.

For all of us.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

During the time in which Islam was powerful (and in fact in all previous periods of history) the main source of power for a civilization was military power.

I am not talking about military power, I am talking about scientific advancements. Clearly you have not read the link, here it is again:
http://muslimheritage.com/

because it put women in a social position in which their main function was to procreate new warriors

A blatant lie. The main function of women and the main function of men is the same - to serve Allah and no one else (Qur'an 51:56).

Since this discovery the source of power for a civilization is not anymore its number of soldiers but its technological and economic power.

The Islamic empire had the leading economy as well, so your point fails again.

And on that account Christianity is much better than Islam, because it encourages peaceful activities, such as those of scientists

That is why the scientists feared the church! They were too afraid to say the earth was round, when four centuries before, Ibn Tamiyyah, a leading Islamic scholar, and many others, mentioned that the earth was round. Again, read about the Muslim scientists at http://www.muslimheritage.com

That is why the West today can destroy Islam if it wants to

The west can destroy Muslims, but no one can ever destroy Islam, the eternal path of submission to the One Creator.

In fact, your own fellow Christian Missionaries disagree with you. Joel Richardson, an ardent opponent of Islam and fervent missionary, writes in his book Will Islam be Our Future?, in which he attempts to galvanize missionaries into action:

The clearest reason to study and understand Islam and specifically Islamic eschatology is quite simply because Islam is the future.* Yes, you read that correctly: Islam is the future.* If present trends do not change dramatically, Islam will bypass Christianity for the title of the world’s largest religion very shortly.* In fact, according to most statistics, this may take place in less than twenty years.​

Regards

 

[Turin Turambar]

Ansar Al-'Adl,

In general I like your posts a lot and I say that seriously. But this last one was a little weak, because you really didn't address my points.

I am obviously aware of those "scientific advances" in the Islamic Empire. All of you Muslims are mentioning them all the time! The last one happened approximately the year 1200. Enough said.

When I say that the position of women was to procreate, I am saying that from the practical or social point of view. Obviously from the religious point of view our mission is to worship God. That is true for both Christians and Muslims. That wasn't my point.

But you didn't address the essential part of my argument. I am explaining to you why is it that the same Islam that made Muslims powerful in the Middle Ages is making them weak today. I say this with sincerity and good will. I am sure that for all your conviction, even you have asked yourself that question. If you are performing today the same 5 prayers a day that you were performing back then, why is it that now you are weak?

Please believe me, because I know this IS the right answer.

Today all the scientific and technological advances are developed in the West. The West and the “westernized” countries such as Japan, Korea and China control the economy of the world. The gap with the Muslim countries is probably increasing because of the newfound religious enthusiasm in many of those countries. I am sure that the science curriculum in the maddrassas is kind of weak.

My statement is that the Islamic “Golden Era” will never come back. To prove that I am wrong you have to prove one of two things:

1) Science and technology will somehow lose their role as the main source of power in the modern world. That role will go to some other field of human activity in which Muslims will have an advantage.

2) Muslims will not only catch up with non-Muslims in the field of science and technology but they will surpass them, allowing Islam to be again a leading civilization. Today 99% percent of scientists and businessmen are non-Muslims. But their Muslim counterparts will reproduce themselves at such a rate that they will surpass that number and make Islam powerful again.

Which of the two do you think will happen? Please remember that I am not saying this to humiliate you Muslims. I would NEVER do that. On the contrary, I want all of you to take a new look at things.


PS: I am having so much fun with these debates!

 

[Sister Khadija]

Peace be with you Turin Turambar!

But you didn't address the essential part of my argument. I am explaining to you why is it that the same Islam that made Muslims powerful in the Middle Ages is making them weak today. I say this with sincerity and good will. I am sure that for all your conviction, even you have asked yourself that question. If you are performing today the same 5 prayers a day that you were performing back then, why is it that now you are weak?

There are weak in every religion, but each person is accountable for their actions.

Why ponder the question why are other Muslims weak? The more negative you think, the more negative you allow into your brain, the happier you make Iblis (Satan), AUDO BILLAHI MINA SHAITAN ARRAGIM (I seek refuge with Allah away from the Shaitan).

When I hear of weak Muslims, I thank Allah that I am not weak and I ask him to send blessing to all the Humanking to help the Muslims revert to True Islam and to unviel the minds and hearts of the non-beleiver that they will become believers.

Then, I keep doing what I have to do and do not think of the other weak as I pray for them which is more powerful than anything.

Asking why are you weak is not a valid question. We can not answer for other people.

Please believe me, because I know this IS the right answer.

Today all the scientific and technological advances are developed in the West. The West and the “westernized” countries such as Japan, Korea and China control the economy of the world. The gap with the Muslim countries is probably increasing because of the newfound religious enthusiasm in many of those countries. I am sure that the science curriculum in the maddrassas is kind of weak.

The scientific and technological advances are gifts from Allah, it is up to us to use them for the right or for the wrong. Almost everything on the internet is Harram (sinful), but what you do with it is your test, your reason for life. There is a right way and a wrong way to everything in life. It is what you use with it that you will be judged.

Example, if you send a fax to a company do you say, "Cool, it went through, I love technology!"? Is that what MOST people say? If the fax fails MOST people say "Stupid technology, it figure it doesnt always work!"?

Why not send the fax and thank GOD for inspiring someone with the idea to help the world of our generation? "Thank you GOD for creating this machine to help humankind! That is true Islam!

My statement is that the Islamic “Golden Era” will never come back. To prove that I am wrong you have to prove one of two things:

Well, do you know the Bible story that when Jesus comes back he will bring a builiding 1500 feet high, 1500 feet each way to the East and West, and North and South and he will rule with the beleivers in this place?

The Qur'an confirms the Bible and corrects it. That is the Golden Age! Only problem, the Bible doesn't tell you what happens after that. After that is Judgement and then Paradise will be created. Those truly deserving believers will have thier own Mansion with 50,000 windows made of the purest Diamond you can not even image. The floors are rubies, the streest are pearls and etc. You have half the story in the Bible, but not the full in detail story.

1) Science and technology will somehow lose their role as the main source of power in the modern world. That role will go to some other field of human activity in which Muslims will have an advantage.

2) Muslims will not only catch up with non-Muslims in the field of science and technology but they will surpass them, allowing Islam to be again a leading civilization. Today 99% percent of scientists and businessmen are non-Muslims. But their Muslim counterparts will reproduce themselves at such a rate that they will surpass that number and make Islam powerful again.

Which of the two do you think will happen? Please remember that I am not saying this to humiliate you Muslims. I would NEVER do that. On the contrary, I want all of you to take a new look at things.

When the Golden age comes, the Earth will be different that we can not even comprehend it today. A slice of Heaven is put on this earth so everything about technology will be different and our way of thinking will be different.

Many hadiths indicate the existence of a period when the Qur'an's values will pervade Earth. This period, known as the Golden Age, will last for more than half a century and, in many ways, will resemble 'the Blessed Period' of our Prophet (saas).

According to one hadith, people will be so content that they will spend their days with no idea as to how time passes and how one day turns into the next. They will pray to Allah to prolong their lives in order to receive more benefits from these graces. Another Prophetic hadith states that;

The younger ones wish they were grown-ups, while the adults wish they were younger... The good become even more good, and even the wicked ones are treated well. (Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir al-zaman, p. 59)

Unprecedented Abundance

Many hadiths reveal that there will be an unprecedented abundance of crops and goods, all of which will be distributed without measure:

During this (period), my ummah (people) will lead a kind of comfortable and carefree life that they have never known before. (The land) will bring forth its yield and will not hold anything back... (Ibn Majah)

Technological developments will provide abundance in the Golden Age

People will reap 700 measures of wheat for every one they sow ... People will throw down a few handfuls of seeds and reap 700 handfuls ... Although much rain will fall, none will be wasted. (Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi `Alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntazar, p. 24)

This hadith refers to an increase in agricultural production that will occur in the End Times by transitioning to modern agriculture, developing new agricultural techniques, improving seed stocks, and using rainwater more efficiently by constructing new dams and artificial lakes.

The high cost of living and poverty will end

As the Golden Age will be a time of welfare and great wealth, all people will receive more than they demand. Nothing will be measured or counted.

Our Prophet (saas) said that his people will live in blessings, especially during the Last Days:

A time will come when a person, with his golden alms in his hand, will go around, finding no one (in need) who is willing to receive the alms. (Mukhtasar Tazkirah Qurtubi)

Then will my Ummah be blessed, the number of animals will increase and the land will bear its fruits. (Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi `Alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntazar, p. 26)

Definitely possessions will be in abundance then, flowing like water. Yet no one will (condescend) to take any. (Mukhtasar Tazkirah Qurtubi)

I am having so much fun with these debates too!

Sister Khadija :sister: :sister:

 

[cool_jannah]

salaamalaikum

Your argument about the Muslim Ummah's downfall at this point of time is completely understandable. Even Muslims raise this question many times.
Firstly you need to understand that our connection with Allah,Subhanahu wa Ta'aala(Glorified be He, the most high) is not dependent upon how much He gives us or how much He takes from us. Because our Aqqedah(fundamental beliefs) is that - Allah, Subhanahu wa T'aala is the Lord and the Sustainer and the Cherisher irrespective of how much struggle or hardships we are in. We are taught not be like the Jews who use to worship and become happy with their Lord only when He gave His blessings to them and become angry or start complaining when He takes away their comfort.
Irrespective of what the Muslim Ummah is going through, Allah is still our Creator, the Most Merciful, the Most forgiving. Our connection with Him is always established. The struggle and hardships of life are just a test for the believers as to how much do they really believe in Allah as their Lord. The ones with weak Imaan give up quickly..those are the hypocrites and may Allah guide them.
Secondly, I think it is your misunderstanding about the attributes or true nature of God and your ignorance regarding Islam, that you come up with this argument about the downfall of Muslims. Allah, Subhanahu wa T'aala does not really need our ibadas(worships) and devotions...He is free from any kind of need or influence.He is the Most Powerful. It is, as I mentioned earlier, our(Muslims) fault. When people start losing their sight towars the straight path, Allah the Merciful makes them go through hardships and worries...to make them realize..and thus return back to the straight path. Just like how a person goes to the graveyard to burry his close relative and watches him being put in the ground, makes him realize that he will too one day go through the same phase. So it is just a reminder for Muslims.

and your second part about the golden era has got to be the most ridiculous thing ive heard in this whole week..cmon you gotto be much more resonable inyour arguments and claims. who are you to put up those two conditions defining the 'golden era' whatever that might be. honestly speaking the definition of your 'golden era' is something totaly different from ours. we are working on our Afterlife, the one which will be forever....unlike this life which is usually around 70-80 years. all the progress in the world has led nothing to but more destruction and chaos...and remember this that progress and advancement in this worldly life..or bringing about a change in the societies DOES NOT have to be necessarily for good. and dont get me wrong...Islam does not discourage us from learning and progressing...it all depends upon what kind of progress you are making!
I really think a highly educated and qualified intellectual, who works all his life to attain a certain worldly goal...say go to Mars and stay there for a year or somethin....if he comes back, he still has to go in his grave and stand up on the day of reckoning. and if he fails on that day..all his struggle in this life was in vain and a total waste of time...i mean he is doomed forever...
WE ARE CREATED FOR A PURPOSE....AND THAT PURPOSE IS TO WORSHIP ALLAH...if you dont even know who your Sustainer is all your life...and you waste your head on something so obscure as to go on Mars or somethin...
you are nothing but a fool

 

[Eric H]

greetings and peace to you all,

I feel that we should not try and compete against each other, rather I feel there is a great need to pray for each other, that we may all achieve salvation.

In the spirit of striving for greater interfaith relations

Eric

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

When I say that the position of women was to procreate, I am saying that from the practical or social point of view. Obviously from the religious point of view our mission is to worship God.

You said that Islam (RELIGION) put women in a position where their main function was to procreate warriors. As I pointed out, that statement is nonsensical.

I am sure that for all your conviction, even you have asked yourself that question. If you are performing today the same 5 prayers a day that you were performing back then, why is it that now you are weak?

But that's the problem right there - Muslims today are not practicing their religion. The poor condition of the Muslims is because they have abandoned their religion, they are lazy with their prayers, they are not careful about avoiding haraam. If the Muslims returned to their religion, then God would return to the Muslims their status. Your problem is that you are on the outside, and you don't know if the Muslims are practicing their religion. Those of us who are part of the community know that the Muslim Ummah has a long way to go in returning to Islam.

Please believe me, because I know this IS the right answer.

lol, this remined me of the arguments thread:

193.) ARGUMENT FROM HIDDEN WISDOM (aka MATTHEW SLICK ARGUMENT #6)

Listen people, Islam is false.
I know a lot more about this than I'm letting on.
Therefore, Islam is false.​

The gap with the Muslim countries is probably increasing because of the newfound religious enthusiasm in many of those countries.

Then why were Muslims the leading civilization in science and technology when they were practicing their religion?

My statement is that the Islamic “Golden Era” will never come back. To prove that I am wrong you have to prove one of two things:
1) Science and technology will somehow lose their role as the main source of power in the modern world. That role will go to some other field of human activity in which Muslims will have an advantage.

What has this to do with the Islamic Golder Era?! What makes you think that Muslims cannot excel in science and technology?

2) Muslims will not only catch up with non-Muslims in the field of science and technology but they will surpass them, allowing Islam to be again a leading civilization.

You're making the claim that they won't so the burden of proof is on you!

Today 99% percent of scientists and businessmen are non-Muslims.

Source?!?

Peace.

 

[Mohsin]

Please believe me, because I know this IS the right answer

lol, this remined me of the arguments thread:

193.) ARGUMENT FROM HIDDEN WISDOM (aka MATTHEW SLICK ARGUMENT #6)

Listen people, Islam is false.
I know a lot more about this than I'm letting on.
Therefore, Islam is false.​

LOL ;D You should copy and paste this on the 100 proofs post by missionaries, there was someone there who was saying this is an insult and stuff, well this is proof that people do actually make these claims. So funny, couldn't stop laughing when i read it, nice one turin

 

[Mohsin]

greetings and peace to you all,

I feel that we should not try and compete against each other, rather I feel there is a great need to pray for each other, that we may all achieve salvation.

Eric

Salam Eric, i've asked you this before, how can we all be on the path to salvation when Christianity says only believing in jesus PBUH is the saviour is the path to heaven, and Muslims saying on the other hand if anyone believes Jesus is Son of God or One-In-Three they will enter hell. These are contradicting views, both can't be right can they. So your right we as muslims do pray for our christian brothers, that they come back to the path that Jesus PBUH preached.....Islam. We're not competeing with each other, it's clear we both think our own way is the right way and best way. i understand where Turin's coming from, he believes Christianity is right so he wants us to also be following the correct path, but i don't understand your perspective on this, if you think Christianity is the best way, why don't you want to spread it to us so that we also enjoy this great bounty. What you love for yourself you love for your brother and neighbour, right?

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace Moss

i understand where Turin's coming from, he believes Christianity is right so he wants us to also be following the correct path.

Like Turin I also believe that Christianity is right, but unlike Turin I do not believe in arguing points of faith, or trying to compete in faith. Both you and Ansar seem to know a lot about Christianity already so I probably cannot tell you something you do not know already.

but i don't understand your perspective on this, if you think Christianity is the best way, why don't you want to spread it to us so that we also enjoy this great bounty.

In both Christianity and Islam there is a verse which says that God guides whom he wills. If God guides me through Christianity and he guides you through Islam; then who are we as mere mortals to try and alter God’s will.

Whatever you may think I cannot spread Christianity to you, if you choose Christianity you must willingly choose to do this for yourself with the help of the spirit.

What you love for yourself you love for your brother and neighbour, right?

What I love for myself is the freedom from you to choose my faith and live my faith one day at a time; so that I may strive for a greater relationship with God and all my neighbours.

If the thing I love above all else is the freedom to practice my faith without opposition from you, then I must also respect that you may want freedom from me so that you may grow in faith through Islam.

The chances are there will always be many factions of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc. We each believe we are right but we cannot know for sure, we must pray for each other that we may all gain salvation. We must seek justice, peace and love for each other, because above all else we are all the creation of the same God.

In the spirit of seeking greater interfaith relations

Eric

 

[Turin Turambar]

Dear Moss,

Your message to Eric was excellent. You understand my point. If you think something is true you want it for everybody.

But when I said "Please believe me, because I know this IS the right answer"
you misunderstood me! You thought that was the argument! That is of course not an argument, it is only the part of my message where I am sincerely PLEADING to you for you to take a new look at things. The argument is the rest of the post! Would you like to say something about the real argument I am making? I would really appreciate that.

In order to make it easy I will repeat it here:

My statement is that the Islamic “Golden Era” will never come back. To prove that I am wrong you have to prove one of two things:

1) Science and technology will somehow lose their role as the main source of power in the modern world. That role will go to some other field of human activity in which Muslims will have an advantage.

2) Muslims will not only catch up with non-Muslims in the field of science and technology but they will surpass them, allowing Islam to be again a leading civilization. Today 99% percent of scientists and businessmen are non-Muslims. But their Muslim counterparts will reproduce themselves at such a rate that they will surpass that number and make Islam powerful again.

Which of the two do you think will happen? And if none of the two happen, doesn't it prove that the "Islamic Golden Era" will never come back?

 

[Muslim Knight]

Which of the two do you think will happen? And if none of the two happen, doesn't it prove that the "Islamic Golden Era" will never come back?

Did the Crusaders (or at least Paul) ever thought that Islam would one day be the world fastest growing religion as it is today? Come one, just type it in your search engine, "The fastest growing religion in the world."

Many prophecies as indicated in the Hadith of our beloved Rasulullah (salallahu 'alayhi wassalam) have been fulfilled, and turn of events are leading towards the coming of the End of Times and before that the emergence of Al-Mahdi and Jesus ('alayhi salaam). The Islamic Golden Age will return. www.jesuswillreturn.com

 

[songinwind]

I did as u sujested brother

ISLaAM is the fastest growing religion in the world. Because Islam is a complete way of life. It tells man about the purpose of his creation and existence, his ultimate destiny, his place among other creatures and more importantly, it provides him with guidance to lead a balanced and purposeful life which will enable him to avoid the Hell-fire and be rewarded with a place in Paradise in the life after death. Simply Islaam is to "Obey Allah" (Allah is the Name of the Only One True God). Islaam is a verb in Arabic (a doing word). The one who does Islaam is called a Muslim. (Allah calls us "Muslims" in His Speech of Qur'ân).

The Arabic word Islaam means voluntary surrender to the will of Allaah and obedience to His commands. Allaah is an Arabic word, the proper name of God. Muslims prefer to use Allaah rather than God
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/womens/islam.htm
peace to all...

 

[Lush]

Could it be that "honor killings" and Islam are SOMEHOW related?

I know I'm jumping in a bit late here, but... Honour killings are completely against Islam, and this has already been pointed out on this thread. But there are certain "Muslim" movements in Arabia and South Asia that want to perserve this barbaric "tradition." Jordan's Islamic Action Front comes to mind.

For as long as groups like that continue supporting this so-called custom, large numbers of non-Muslims will remain confused as to who supports what, and why.

 

[Cheb]

Dear Moss,

Your message to Eric was excellent. You understand my point. If you think something is true you want it for everybody.

But when I said "Please believe me, because I know this IS the right answer"
you misunderstood me! You thought that was the argument! That is of course not an argument, it is only the part of my message where I am sincerely PLEADING to you for you to take a new look at things. The argument is the rest of the post! Would you like to say something about the real argument I am making? I would really appreciate that.

In order to make it easy I will repeat it here:

My statement is that the Islamic “Golden Era” will never come back. To prove that I am wrong you have to prove one of two things:

1) Science and technology will somehow lose their role as the main source of power in the modern world. That role will go to some other field of human activity in which Muslims will have an advantage.

2) Muslims will not only catch up with non-Muslims in the field of science and technology but they will surpass them, allowing Islam to be again a leading civilization. Today 99% percent of scientists and businessmen are non-Muslims. But their Muslim counterparts will reproduce themselves at such a rate that they will surpass that number and make Islam powerful again.

Which of the two do you think will happen? And if none of the two happen, doesn't it prove that the "Islamic Golden Era" will never come back?

Actually you cant "prove" any of what you just said. You either believe it or you don't.

 

[Mohsin]

Dear Moss,

Your message to Eric was excellent. You understand my point. If you think something is true you want it for everybody.

But when I said "Please believe me, because I know this IS the right answer"
you misunderstood me! You thought that was the argument! That is of course not an argument, it is only the part of my message where I am sincerely PLEADING to you for you to take a new look at things. The argument is the rest of the post! Would you like to say something about the real argument I am making? I would really appreciate that.

In order to make it easy I will repeat it here:

My statement is that the Islamic “Golden Era” will never come back. To prove that I am wrong you have to prove one of two things:

1) Science and technology will somehow lose their role as the main source of power in the modern world. That role will go to some other field of human activity in which Muslims will have an advantage.

2) Muslims will not only catch up with non-Muslims in the field of science and technology but they will surpass them, allowing Islam to be again a leading civilization. Today 99% percent of scientists and businessmen are non-Muslims. But their Muslim counterparts will reproduce themselves at such a rate that they will surpass that number and make Islam powerful again.

Which of the two do you think will happen? And if none of the two happen, doesn't it prove that the "Islamic Golden Era" will never come back?

She said: ‘My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?’ He said: ‘So (it will be). Allah creates what He will. If He decrees a thing, He says unto it only: “Be!” and it is.’(Ali-Imran, 3:45-47)


God can do anything, as a christian even you agree with that. now this matter comes to faith. The two possiilities are not the only possibilities. I mean just off the top of my head i think there is another possibility. That is i believe in what the prophet Muhammed PBUH has taught us, and we are told that one time in the world everyone will be muslim. Look at islam it is growing so fast, everyday more and more people are reverting, it's entirely my opinion and hope, and i can't bring any proof for this except from the Qur'an, that the west will eventually be majority islamic, then all "science and technology" will be with muslims. If muslims begin practicing their religion, ALL of them, or even majority of them, then more people will revert. Obviously you can't see this happening so this argument is futile

 

[sumay28]

Man I won't get in on this one too deep... what the heck are you talking about dude?? I'm done.