Christians should see Muslims as 'allies'

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Most Muslims here don't like the Turkish governement, who take away the religious freedom of their own people.
:w:

religious freedom? So to you the concept of a religion free government is denying you freedom of religion? You must realize that a secular government is exactly why people in the U.S. have freedom of religion. Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc can all worship as they see fit in a secular society. That is freedom of religion, not a government sponsored institution.
 
I HATE politics but i would just like to say i dont see anything wrong with secularism as long as it is not the same as public atheism... like "we all know there is a God but since we dont all agree about that lets make sure no one religion controls the country" rather than "we will not have religious made laws because there is no God and that is the end of that"

like leave it with a question mark not a period...

because we are all so radically different there is no way one group could rule everybody else fairly, we know that from history too, so secularism provides us a nice way to live together without the need to dominate each other...
 
religious freedom? So to you the concept of a religion free government is denying you freedom of religion? You must realize that a secular government is exactly why people in the U.S. have freedom of religion. Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc can all worship as they see fit in a secular society. That is freedom of religion, not a government sponsored institution.


Greetings

Thats one of many aspects that secularism can affect,maybe the positive one.who knows?how about the negative,It asserts the freedom of religion, and freedom from religion at the same time?,

Yes no relegious group would have any privileges under the secular law which mean all are equal,but that was a socio-political aspect,hows about your lifestyle,family environmental,society, can you give the consequence?of course you'll get pornography,gay,lesbian,prostitution,gambling and other materialistic disease in the name of secular or human free will.

We as a muslim realise that secular provide our freedom of relegion we also realise secularism also could distruct our faith and moral,plus man made law are imperfect,easily could be change through time also altered by man as a desire fulfillness.

I wonder how many fruit of adultery in secular society,being born without father,abortion everywhere,btw the secular would love to see religion removed from western society, because with God out of the way, everything would be permissible,is that right...peace
 
Greetings

Thats one of many aspects that secularism can affect,maybe the positive one.who knows?how about the negative,It asserts the freedom of religion, and freedom from religion at the same time?,

Yes no relegious group would have any privileges under the secular law which mean all are equal,but that was a socio-political aspect,hows about your lifestyle,family environmental,society, can you give the consequence?of course you'll get pornography,gay,lesbian,prostitution,gambling and other materialistic disease in the name of secular or human free will.

We as a muslim realise that secular provide our freedom of relegion we also realise secularism also could distruct our faith and moral,plus man made law are imperfect,easily could be change through time also altered by man as a desire fulfillness.

I wonder how many fruit of adultery in secular society,being born without father,abortion everywhere,btw the secular would love to see religion removed from western society, because with God out of the way, everything would be permissible,is that right...peace


I am also realise i just got off topic,sorry
 
When did the Turkish government take away religious freedom?
The fact that Turkey is becoming secular and wants to be a part of the EU.
Muslim women are being denied the right to wear the Hijab. They don't let the students into the school unless they take it off. How sad...
 
That just tickle pink cute and wonderful. :giggling: You could never get a concusses on what “god’s laws” are. :playing: So that kind of leaves us with man’s laws. "Nobody who followed a theist religion would support it". What? The majority of the people in the West are theists and the majority support secular laws and want separation of church and state.


Allah swt guides those he chooses for if he willed he would guide the world a right

this a prime example of that

how about we start by defining these pretty words we are using shall we lets start with Theism

"Theism is the belief in the existence of one or more gods or deities" according to websters dictionary

now the majority of people who live in the west are theists you tell me what sence it makes for somebody who believes in a supreme being to overthrow the laws set out by that supreme being with man made laws???? i dont know about you but thats simply absurd

okay moving along lets define the word concusses shall we

etymology from latin concutere, or concussum

generally means to shake severly or to cause injury (in line with violence)


now that said, i personaly dont see your point all im seeing is that you feel special by using pretty words

Allah swts laws are set in stone and will remain until the day of judgment when each and every last one of us will face him and stand before him

they are clear and no man can overthrow them we can come up our own laws until the cows come home however they do not and will not ever over power the laws set forth by Allah our master the creator of the heavens and the earth because in the end we will be punished severly for our actions not on the basis of our own laws but on the basis of the creator's laws

again like i said

the most merciful guides who he chooses and whom soever is guided no body no combination of people can misguide and whom so ever allah allows to be lead astray no one and no combination of people can guide them aright he is Omniscient
we can not harm him we are harming nobody but ourselfs by disobeying him. he is our master.We can not Fool allah. Surely it is ourselfs who we are fooling if we believe so.
 
The fact that Turkey is becoming secular and wants to be a part of the EU.
Muslim women are being denied the right to wear the Hijab. They don't let the students into the school unless they take it off. How sad...

If I may ask? What does that have to do with the EU? That Turkish law has been in place long before WW2. No EU country is as strict about it as Turkey and it certainly isn't a requirement to join the EU.
 
Greetings

Thats one of many aspects that secularism can affect,maybe the positive one.who knows?how about the negative,It asserts the freedom of religion, and freedom from religion at the same time?,

Yes no relegious group would have any privileges under the secular law which mean all are equal,but that was a socio-political aspect,hows about your lifestyle,family environmental,society, can you give the consequence?of course you'll get pornography,gay,lesbian,prostitution,gambling and other materialistic disease in the name of secular or human free will.

We as a muslim realise that secular provide our freedom of relegion we also realise secularism also could distruct our faith and moral,plus man made law are imperfect,easily could be change through time also altered by man as a desire fulfillness.

I wonder how many fruit of adultery in secular society,being born without father,abortion everywhere,btw the secular would love to see religion removed from western society, because with God out of the way, everything would be permissible,is that right...peace

But what is the alternative? Islamic rule over all?
 
Do you think secularism is an enemy?
Hi wilberhum

It's 16 hours since you asked me this question, and the thread has moved on since then - but I would still like to give a my answer.

Given that it was me who used the term 'common enemy'( although the article refers to 'allies', which kind of implies a struggle against a common enemy), I thought I would need to ponder my opinion carefully, before posting it.

You see, I wish I could have answered your question with a heart-felt 'no', as Jayda did, but somehow I wasn't sure that could! :?

To be clear about the meaning of the word 'secular', I have checked the definition. The Concise Oxford Dictionary defines it as
  1. concerned with the affairs of this world; not spiritual or sacred
    [*]not concerned with religion or religious belief
    [*]not bound be any religious rule

Now back to your question:

Do I think non-believers are my enemies?
No! (If i did, I would have to consider most of my family members, friends, neighbours and work colleagues as my enemies. :uuh: :(

Do I consider our secular government, secular organisations and secular laws as my enemies?
No! I have two reasons for this:

Firstly, I believe that power corrupts. Countless governments and political systems have demonstrated this. And religious men in power have not fared any better in human history ...
I feel it is wiser to keep religion and politics separate - and I agree that a secular government on the whole gives different religions within a multi-cultural and multi-religious society greater rights and freedom than a single-religion-government would do.

Secondly, Jesus was very clear in his teachings that we should obey our governments and authorities. "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." (Mark 12:17)
In fact, it was this which frustrated some Jews, who had hoped Jesus had come to overturn the Roman rule, and it contributed to him being criticised and eventually killed.
Paul picks up this theme in his letter to the church in Ephesus: "Slaves (replace with employer, citizen etc.), obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.


Paul goes on to stress that "our struggle is not against flesh and blood",but he also talks about a spiritual struggle "against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms"

You see, this spiritual struggle seems important to me, and I read the article to mean a spiritual struggle against the secular lifestyle of our modern society!

Try to understand this from a religious point of view.
I think I can speak for all three monotheistic religions when I say that we believe that God desires or even demands our
  • time and attention
    [*]love, worship and devotion
    [*]obedience

If you look at it like that, then yes, secularism undermines and erodes God's way!
By definition secularism is not concerned with God or religion.

Instead of spending time praying to and worshipping God and fulfilling his will, people devote their time to other things, such as materialistic desires, fashion, an obsession with media and celebrities, promiscuous behaviour, drugs ... (Hear me right - I am not saying that all non-believers engage in these activities. Forgive me the stereotyping, I am just trying to demonstrate how secularism distracts from God)

Goodness, can somebody just shut me up ...!!! :rollseyes

(I'll stop rambling, wilberhum. Don't ever let me ponder one of your questions for 16 hours again!!! ;D But perhapsyou know my answer now ...)

peace :)
 
What are you laughing at? The overwhelming majority of Americans are clearly practising and openly religious. Church attendancy is quite high, much higher than mosque attendance among Muslims in Europe for example. Who are you to call them insincere? :?

ru sure???

The percentage of Catholics who say they attend Mass every week is steadily declining.
1987 44%
1993 41%
1999 37%
2005 * 33%
* projected

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2004-11-07-church-main_x.htm


New Study Finds Mosque Goers to Double Church Attendance
http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache...que.goers.to.double.church.attendance/457.htm

masalama
 
why do u type G-d not god?? :?

Jews type it like that for respect, because lavi explained that if the site as deleted then the name "God" would be to, and therefore it would be breaking a law of erasing Gods name. Therefore, they write it "G-d" unless it is in a prayer book, or Torah ect.
 
That makes sense. Like if i was to write Allah on my book then i wouldnt be able to throw it out. I did that once when I was little. I jus cut out the word and kept it, then threw my notebook out lol. Still have it. Sorry off topic =P
 
ru sure???

The percentage of Catholics who say they attend Mass every week is steadily declining.
1987 44%
1993 41%
1999 37%
2005 * 33%
* projected

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2004-11-07-church-main_x.htm


New Study Finds Mosque Goers to Double Church Attendance
http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache...que.goers.to.double.church.attendance/457.htm

masalama

You seem to be more or less correct on the church attendance.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_rate.htm

Nevertheless, that does not change the point that the United States, compared to other developed countries, is highly religious, with only 15% saying they are not religious. Yet at the level of the state the country is still secular, which is the context in which I made the remark.
 
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It will be difficult or impossible for Christians to ally themselves with Muslims as long as Muslims call for the execution of any Muslim who voluntarily wishes to convert to Christianity. Especially when they are actively trying to convert Christians to Islam.
 
Muslims dont "try" to convert people to Islam. This isn't Christianity during the crusades. I think you mean to say Christian missionaries going around and getting people to accept Jesus(pbuh) as their lord and savior. Especially in places like Africa, mostly in poor areas.
Allah(swt) tells us to invite people with wisdom and beautiful preaching. There are many reverts to Islam, especially on here.. are we making them accept? umm no. Our job is to tell people what Islam is about. The rest is up to them. So stop with ur ingnorant remarks.
 
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Muslims dont "try" to convert people to Islam. This isn't Christianity during the crusades. I think you mean to say Christian missionaries going around and getting people to accept Jesus(pbuh) as their lord and savior. Especially in places like Africa, mostly in poor areas.
Allah(swt) tells us to invite people with wisdom and beautiful preaching. There are many reverts to Islam, especially on here.. are we making them accept? umm no. Our job is to tell people what Islam is about. The rest is up to them. So stop with ur ingnorant remarks.

I agree. But nevertheless, Muslims conquered many Christian lands. So while they did not spread Islam by the sword, IMHO they did spread Islamic rule by the sword.
 
When you conquer a land r u gunna fight the people wit ur fist or a weapon?
When Islam was spreading, the Prophet (saw) and the Muslims fought only when they were attacked.
 
Muslims dont "try" to convert people to Islam. This isn't Christianity during the crusades. I think you mean to say Christian missionaries going around and getting people to accept Jesus(pbuh) as their lord and savior.
<sighs>
Do you not like Christians, Tayyaba?
Do you have any idea how comments such as this make me feel? :(

Do you judge us all by the actions of a few?
How do you feel when he world judges you by the actions of a few madmen?
Do you like it???
Cause I feel the ame when you make such sweeping comments about people who follow Christ ... :cry:

I give up ...
 
Glo, my intention isn't to hurt anyone, honest to God. I dont hate Christians. I hate the ignorant ones. I have mostly non muslim friends. Atheist, Jewish, and Christian friends. I respect them because they dont make such remarks. Why? because I dont behave like the rest. But do not expect me to sit and not saying anything, while someone is being ignorant. I am stating a fact, not a lie. It makes you upset right, doesnt it make me upset when someone does the same? Im surprised your askin me how "I" feel when someone does judges me. I assure you we Muslims feel it a lot. If these people were true followers of Jesus(pbuh) they wouldnt behave that way. They would be more like you. Same for the so called Muslims. When you have people like Blunderbus, I see no reason why I shouldnt say anything. I have as much of a right as the rest of you all. I only answered back after he made false remarks.
When you push someone into the corner, what do u expect them to do? When a person bites, they bite. You should expect a reaction.
Peace..
 
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