Circumcision

[broadfork]

There is no thread with this exact title.
Please (all obeisances), no non-answers. They made the other thread on the subject very difficult to parse.
Does the Hadith (Muhammad) give any explicit direction on circumcision (male or female)?
I only have the impression that it is practiced upon boys, but much later in childhood than is instructed by Abraham.
Muhammad does give explicit direction on nursing, and my interest is in matters transpiring in the first days of newborn life.
Thank you.
eric

 

[greenhill]

It is better for the kid.. he becomes more conscious of his privates the older he gets. Many get it done at birth. Less traumatic.


eace:

 

[broadfork]

Hi greenhill,
Is that in the Hadith?

 

[Huzaifah ibn Adam]

روى البيهقي (8/324) عن جابر قال : عَقَّ رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم عن الحسن والحسين ، وختنهما لسبعة أيام

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Hadhrat Jaabir ibn `Abdillaah رضي الله عنه narrates, "The Rasool (Messenger) of Allaah صلى الله عليه وسلم did the `Aqeeqah for al-Hasan and al-Husayn, and circumcised them when they were seven days old."

[Note: `Aqeeqah is the sacrificing of an animal.]

`Allaamah ibn al-Qayyim says:

"In my view, it is obligatory for the guardian to circumcise the child before puberty, so that he will grow up in a circumcised state, because the duty can only be done in this manner… Nabi صلى الله عليه وسلم enjoined fathers to tell their children to perform Salaah when they are seven and to hit them (i.e. discipline them) if they do not perform Salaah when they are ten, so what justification can there be for not circumcising them until after they have reached puberty?"

Dr. Muhammad `Ali al-Baar wrote an article on the health benefits of circumcision, which I will post here for the benefit of the readers:

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Dr. Muhammad 'Ali al-Baar (a member of the Royal College of Surgeons in the UK and a consultant to the Islamic Medicine department of the King Fahd Centre for Medical Research in the King Abdul Aziz University in Jeddah) says in his book al-Khitaan (Circumcision):

"Circumcision of newborn boys (I.e., within the first month of life) brings numerous health benefits, including:

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1 – Protection against local infection in the penis, which may result from the presence of the foreskin, causing tightening of the foreskin, which may lead to retention of urine or infections of the glans (tip) of the penis – which require circumcision in order to treat these problems. In chronic cases, the child may be exposed to numerous diseases in the future, the most serious of which is cancer of the penis.

2 – Infections of the urethra. Many studies have proven that uncircumcised boys are more exposed to infection of the urethra. In some studies the rate was 39 times more among uncircumcised boys. In other studies the rate was ten times more. Other studies showed that 95% of children who suffered from infections of the urethra were uncircumcised, whereas the rate among circumcised children did not exceed 5%. In children, infection of the urethra is serious in some cases. In the study by Wisewell on 88 children who suffered infections of the urethra, in 36 % of them, the same bacteria was found in the blood also. Three of them contracted meningitis, and two suffered renal failure. Two others died as a result of the spread of the micro-organisms throughout the body.

3 – Protection against cancer of the penis: the studies agree that cancer of the penis is almost non-existent among circumcised men, whereas the rate among uncircumcised men is not insignificant. In the US the rate of penile cancer among circumcised men is zero, whilst among uncircumcised men it is 2.2 in every 100,000 of the uncircumcised population. As most of the inhabitants of the US are circumcised, the cases of this cancer there are between 750 and 1000 per year. If the population were not circumcised, the number of cases would reach 3000. In countries where boys are not circumcised, such as China, Uganda and Puerto Rico, penile cancer represents between 12-22 % of all cancers found in men; this is a very high percentage.

4 – Sexually transmitted diseases (STDs). Researchers found that the STDs which are transmitted via sexual contact (usually because of fornication/adultery and homosexuality) spread more among those who are not circumcised, especially herpes, soft chancres, syphilis, candida, gonorrhea and genital warts. There are numerous modern studies which confirm that circumcision reduces the possibility of contracting AIDS when compared to their uncircumcised counterparts. But that does not rule out the possibility of a circumcised man contracting AIDS as the result of sexual contact with a person who has AIDS. Circumcision is not a protection against it, and there is no real way of protecting oneself against the many sexually transmitted diseases apart from avoiding fornication/adultery, promiscuity, homosexuality and other repugnant practices. (From this we can see the wisdom of Islamic sharee'ah in forbidding fornication/adultery and homosexuality).

5 – Protection of wives against cervical cancer. Researchers have noted that the wives of circumcised men have less risk of getting cervical cancer than the wives of uncircumcised men.

Health Benefits taken from: al-Khitaan, p. 76, by Dr. Muhammad al-Baar.

 

[broadfork]

روى البيهقي (8/324) عن جابر قال : عَقَّ رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم عن الحسن والحسين ، وختنهما لسبعة أيام

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Hadhrat Jaabir ibn `Abdillaah رضي الله عنه narrates, "The Rasool (Messenger) of Allaah صلى الله عليه وسلم did the `Aqeeqah for al-Hasan and al-Husayn, and circumcised them when they were seven days old."

[Note: `Aqeeqah is the sacrificing of an animal.]

I think I understand your reply, except exactly where to find the "8/324." Is it an Hadith? What year is it? Google searching returns Arabic for Arabic, which language I do not know:-(.
Aside-I exclude doctors and opinions, and am just considering the parameters of my original inquiry.
Thank you.

 

[Huzaifah ibn Adam]

Yes, what I quoted is a Hadeeth. It comes in a Hadeeth compilation (Book of Hadeeth) known as "Shu`b-ul-Eemaan". The book is in Arabic only. 8/324 refers to the volume and page number. Volume 8, page 324.

The Messenger of Allaah صلى الله عليه وسلم also said, "The characteristics of the Fitrah (natural disposition) are five: circumcision; removal of pubic hair; clipping the mustache; paring the nails, and plucking the hair under the armpits." [Narrated in Saheeh Muslim.]

(Saheeh Muslim is another Book of Hadeeth.)

 

[broadfork]

Thank you. That does answer my question.
I wonder if anyone ever documented Muhammad recounting at what age he himself was circumcised?

 

[broadfork]

I searched it. I see that there are differing reports.
Here is where I line up (fwiw), not whether Muhammad was or wasn't circumcised, or when, but as regards both necessity and timing today:
Search 'the american muslim' (a '.org' website) and Dr. David Liepert.
Again, it his medical outlook with which I agree. I can only hope that this doctor is accepted in the main of Islam today.

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[Huzaifah ibn Adam]

`Allaamah ibn al-Qayyim (one of the greatest scholars of Islaam) mentions in his book, "Tuhfatul Mawlood", page 201, that the Messenger of Allaah صلى الله عليه وسلم was circumcised by his grandfather, `Abdul Muttalib, when he was seven days old.

 

[Huzaifah ibn Adam]

There are three views among the historians, actually:

1) The Messenger of Allaah صلى الله عليه وسلم was born circumcised.

2) The Messenger of Allaah صلى الله عليه وسلم was circumcised in his childhood by the angel Jibreel (Gabriel).

3) The Messenger of Allaah صلى الله عليه وسلم was circumcised on the seventh day after his birth by his grandfather, `Abdul Muttalib.

`Allaamah ibn al-Qayyim examined each of these views of the historians and the evidences produced by them in that regard, and found the third view to be the most correct and authentic.

 

[broadfork]

Yes, it does seem most likely.
A couple observations (fwiw):
A) Muhammad's grandfather was not Muslim
B) Muhammad did not choose it.
C) There is no compulsion in religion (i.e. we now allow the 'circumcisee' to decide, later in life)
pbuy, eric

 

[Scimitar]

Yes, it does seem most likely.
A couple observations (fwiw):
A) Muhammad's grandfather was not Muslim
B) Muhammad did not choose it.
C) There is no compulsion in religion (i.e. we now allow the 'circumcisee' to decide, later in life)
pbuy, eric

Hi Broadfork

who is "we"? - you've listed yourself as "other".

The covenant of Abraham pbuh was to circumcise the flesh of the foreskin and Ishmael pbuh his first born was circmusised and then many years later when Isaac pbuh was born he too was circumcised. Ishmael pbuh the first born migrated with his mother to Mecca, and founded the Meccan tribe which would inhabit the region - the people were iliterate as was the norm for that period in history where writing was rare AND SO - customs survived the ages such as oral narration of stories from their histories and geneologies all from memory - why would it be so difficult to accept that the practice of circumcision could also survive?

Didn't the kaaba survive? It was first made as a house of worship to God, and then as time passed and generations lost the message they filled the kaaba with idols - they didnt destroy it did they? Circumcision was a practice that survived and it may well be that before the prophethood was established with Muhammad pbuh, the people of Mecca simply practiced circumcision because their fathers did it and in turn their fathers also did it and so on and so forth right up to ishmael pbuh...

...A little anthropology will help you out my friend. Check out the works of Lesley Hazleton, among other western proponents of Arabian history if you want to learn more.

Scimi

 

[broadfork]

Jesus (if it were a contest) gets this one exactly right in more of his sayings than any Christian knows, including (and directed specifically at this issue) when he says, "I am before Abraham."
However, it is not the generalized matter that I study. The trauma potential goes from great to minimal in waiting from birth to nearer puberty, but at that point I only suggest that 'if it ain't broke don't fix it.'
However, if it is physically problematic, or rightly symbolic to the 'circumcisee'... well, then it is altogether outside my academic interest.

 

[Huzaifah ibn Adam]

According to the bible, Jesus was circumcised. It's mentioned in the Gospel of Luke:

"And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb." [Luke, 2:21]

 

[broadfork]

Exactly so (he did not circumcise himself, but got it at a too tender age from "those who barter guidance for error"), and like Muhammad he ended up with what I call a super-subconscious.
See the Gospel of Thomas, Line 4, and Line 53. See Gospel of

John 7:22+, and Gospel of Luke 23:34, below.

Copied & pasted from ...
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On the eighth day the child Jesus was circumcised.​

Gospel of Luke 2:21

“You circumcise a man on the Sabbath (though not by the instruction of Moses); what is it to you if I make him whole again on that day?”*
(John 7:22+)

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His disciples said to him, “Is circumcision beneficial or not?” He said to them, “If it were beneficial, their father would beget them already circumcised from their mother."​

Gospel of Thomas, Line 53

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Jesus said, “The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will live.”
Gospel of Thomas, Line 4


“Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.”
(Luke 23:34)

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[Scimitar]

|So, wait -you glossed over my post and decided not to answer my question when I asked you "who is WE?"

And now it seems you are a Christian? Why all the cloak and dagger?

Scimi

 

[Abz2000]

There are multiple reported ahadith indicating that it is fitra in sahih Muslim, one has been posted by brother hudhayfah above, and also regarding the circumcision of Prophet Ibrahim pbuh who is said to have used an adze to circumcise himself at an old age, if the reported hadith is true, then the nature of the tool used and age indicate a keen sense of urgency to get it done regardless of sexual benefits etc, it may also possibly point to an ease in cleaning as one gets older and weaker, especially since the skin becomes more prone to wear and tear and infection as one ages. The references to fitrah therefore make good sense, and Allah knows best,

Regarding the circumcision of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, since there are conflicting viewpoints, one needs to look at all possibilities, circumstances and statements to try and gain a better idea of what may be correct, the reported ahadith regarding fitrah are a strong indication since we have an idea that the prophet pbuh was highly disciplined and methodological in normal day to day activities, even in minor things like putting on shoes in a regular order, clipping his nails in a regular order, stepping in and out of places with certain feet, and even in the sips he took when drinking water, milk or fruit juice, waking up and praying at certain times etc and was very particular about practicing what he preached to the best of his reasonable ability, especially since he was laying down the groundwork for a highly disciplined community, therefore the ahadith on fitrah are a strong indication. Also the fact that circumcision was a common practice of Arabs (even if pagan) of the time and also Jews is an indicator that it would have been highly likely that circumcision was done at an early age, some Arabs of the time even circumcised their females and he pbuh is reported to have told them not to cut deep, indicating that he neither forbade female circumcision, nor recommended it, but put limitations on it, thus indicating that there may be instances where it is necessary and that he wasn't risking people forbidding it based on his statement in future - if the narration is indeed true. Honest and unbiased medical observations free from manipulation due to conflict of interest would help us understand it further.

Here are some ahadith on the topic:

Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 1 :: Hadith 6,*Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:

....While they were discussing it, a messenger sent by the king of Ghassan to convey the news of Allah's Apostle to Heraclius was brought in. Having heard the news, he (Heraclius) ordered the people to go and see whether the messenger of Ghassan was circumcised. The people, after seeing him, told Heraclius that he was circumcised. Heraclius then asked him about the Arabs. The messenger replied, 'Arabs also practice circumcision.'

(Heraclius ,who is reported in Islamic history to have been logical and neither naive nor arrogant, may possibly have been investigating whether it was a jewish spy (since some jews are known for such behaviour and some christians used such checking as a method of determining), but still investigating further before drawing a conclusion).

Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 55 :: Hadith 575,*Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "Abraham did his circumcision with an adze at the age of eighty."

Bukhari :: Book 7 :: Volume 72 :: Hadith 777, Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "Five practices are characteristics of the Fitra: circumcision, shaving the pubic region, clipping the nails and cutting the moustaches short."

Bukhari :: Book 7 :: Volume 72 :: Hadith 779, *Narrated Abu Huraira :

I heard the Prophet saying. "Five practices are characteristics of the Fitra: circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, cutting the moustaches short, clipping the nails, and depilating the hair of the armpits."

Dawud :: Book 41 : Hadith 5251, *Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:

A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

Malik :: Book 43 : Hadith 43.5.4

Malik said, "The generally agreed on way of doing things in our community is that when the doctor performs a circumcision and cuts off the glans, he must pay the full blood-money. That is because it is an accident which the tribe is responsible for, and the full blood money is payable for all that in which a doctor errs or exceeds, when it is not intentional."

Malik :: Book 49 : Hadith 49.3.3

Yahya related to me from Malik from Said ibn Abi Said al-Maqburi from his father that Abu Hurayra said, "There are five things from the fitra: cutting the nails, trimming the moustache, removing the hair from the armpit, shaving the pubic region and circumcision."

Muslim :: Book 2 : Hadith 495,

Abu Huraira reported: Five are the acts quite akin to the Fitra, or five are the acts of Fitra: circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the hair under the armpits and clipping the moustache.

Muslim :: Book 2 : Hadith 496

Abu Huraira reported: Five are the acts of fitra: circumcision, removing the pubes, clipping the moustache, cutting the nails, plucking the hair under the armpits.


And Allah knows best.

Also, anyone who is apprehensive about circumcising themselves or their children would benefit from checking out the plastibell ring method and related images. The doctor who circumcised one of my sons used that method and it was so easy and safe. Very very very difficult to go wrong and appeared to be even safer than the state of the umbilical cord after cutting.

 

[M.I.A.]

I wasn't qualified to answer the OP, although I feel almost pleased that the following answers are rooted in common sense and a logical progression.

thanks.

...Google says Mary and Joseph were Jewish.. do they do the whole circumcision thing? o_0

 

[Huzaifah ibn Adam]

From WikiPedia:

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[h=3]Brit milah[edit][/h]Main article: Brit milah
According to Jewish law, ritual circumcision of male children is a commandment from God that Jews are obligated to follow, and is only postponed or abrogated in the case of threat to the life or health of the child.[SUP][19][/SUP] Jews do not believe that non-Jews are obligated to follow this commandment; only Noahide laws apply to non-Jews.


[h=3]In rabbinic literature[/h]
Around 140 CE Rabbinic Judaism made its circumcision requirements stricter.[SUP][21][/SUP][SUP][22][/SUP] Jewish circumcision includes the removal of the inner preputial epithelium, in a procedure that is named 'priah'(Hebrew: פריעה), which means: 'uncovering'. This epithelium is also removed on modern medical circumcisions,[SUP][23][/SUP] to prevent post operative penile adhesion and its complications.[SUP][24][/SUP] According to Rabbinic interpretation of the traditional Jewish sources, the 'priah' has been performed, as part of Jewish circumcision, since the Israelites first inhabited the Land of Israel,[SUP][25][/SUP] and without it the mitzvah isn't performed at all.[SUP][26][/SUP] However, the editors of the Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion, note that priah was probably added by the rabbis, in order to "prevent the possibility of obliterating the traces of circumcision".[SUP][27][/SUP] Jewish law states that circumcision is a mitzva aseh ("positive commandment" to perform an act) and is obligatory for Jewish-born males and for non-circumcised Jewish male converts. It is only postponed or abrogated in the case of threat to the life or health of the child.[SUP][19][/SUP] It is usually performed by a mohel on the eighth day of life in a ceremony called a brit milah (or Bris milah, colloquially simply bris), which means "Covenant of circumcision" in Hebrew. According to Jewish law, the foreskin should be buried after a brit milah.[SUP][28][/SUP] The rite is considered of such importance that in Orthodox communities, the body of an uncircumcised Jewish male will sometimes be circumcised before burial.

 

[Abz2000]

I wasn't qualified to answer the OP, although I feel almost pleased that the following answers are rooted in common sense and a logical progression.
thanks.

61.*And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.
62.*Let not the Evil One hinder you: for he is to you an enemy avowed.

63.*When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.
64.*"For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord: so worship ye Him: this is a Straight Way."
65.*But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement: then woe to the wrong-doers, from the Penalty of a Grievous Day!
66.*Do they only wait for the Hour - that it should come on them all of a sudden, while they perceive not?
67.*Friends on that day will be foes, one to another,- except the Righteous.

Quran 43:61-67

Here's an example of the reaction from what remains of the previous scripture and the narrations recorded therein

23When Jesus returned to the temple courts and began to teach, the chief priests and elders of the people came to Him.
“By what authority are You doing these things?” they asked.
“And who gave You this authority?”

24“I will also ask you one question,”Jesus replied,*“and if you answer Me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things.*
25What was the source of John’s baptism? Was it from heaven or from men?”
They deliberated among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will ask, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’26But if we say, ‘From men,’ we are afraid of the crowd, for they all regard John as a prophet.”*
27So they said to Jesus, “We do not know.”
“Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things,”He replied.

From matthew 21

Allah's testimony is the best testimony:

12."O Yahya! take hold of the Book with might": and We gave him Wisdom even as a youth,
13.*And piety (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity: He was devout,
14.*And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious.
15.*So Peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)!

Quran 19:12-15

5.*Has not the story reached you, of those who rejected Faith aforetime? So they tasted the evil result of their conduct; and they had a grievous Penalty.
6.*That was because there came to them Messengers with Clear Signs, but they said: "Shall (mere) human beings direct us?" So they rejected (the Message) and turned away. But Allah can do without (them): and Allah is free of all needs, worthy of all praise.

Quran 64:5-6

...Google says Mary and Joseph were Jewish.. do they do the whole circumcision thing? o_0

What remains of the previous scripture and narrations within it state the following:

16So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger.17When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child,*18and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them.*19But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart.*20The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told.

21On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise the child, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he was conceived.

Jesus Presented in the Temple

22When the time came for the purification rites required by the Law of Moses, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord*23(as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord”b*),*24and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: “a pair of doves or two young pigeons.”

c25Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him.*26It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Messiah.*27Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required,*28Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:29“Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,you may now dismiss your servant in peace.30For my eyes have seen your salvation,31which you have prepared in the sight of all nations:32a light ftion to the Gentiles,and the glory of your people Israel.”33The child’s father and mother marveled at what was said about him.*34Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother:

“This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against,*35 so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.”

From Luke 2

The post birth rituals described are in keeping with the ways of Islam (the final and completed guidance) although a sheep or cow etc is usually sacrificed for the akikah by those who can afford it.