Clear - Before Adam / Creation

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Clear:

May I ask and purely out of curiosity... if I had posed your same set of questions on the Christian forums where you participate, how then would you have answered? in other words what is a satisfactory answer from your stand point? - Purest Ambrosia
The questions and answers might be as follows:

1) Do the early Judo/Christian traditions [ahadith] or the Old Testament/Bible [quran] discuss in any detail the circumstances and purposes of God and spirits with him prior to the creation of this earth? - Clear
I would answer: Yes, there are hundreds if not thousands of Judao/christian writings; older traditions, pseudographia and many discuss the Lord God's plan of sending spirits to earth; the nature of those spirits; the purposes and methods of physical creation, as well as pre-creation controversies in heaven. Because of the vast quantity of data, one must limit discussions to specific themes. I then ask what the Muslim specifically wanted to know about.

2) Do the same traditions and writings [ahadith] or Judao Christian faith [Quran or Islamic faith] teach in creation of stars and planets from eternally existing matter (i.e. the organization of chaotic, but eternal matter, as some early christianity/judaism taught), or in creation from nothing (as some later christianity taught)?

Earliest writings indicate a creation from disorganized matter and NOT from "nothing". That is, the Lord God took of disorganized matter and organized it into all physical creations. The earliest writings do NOT support "magical" creation, or creation from "nothing", though creation from "nothing" has become the more popular tradition in modern christianity.

Ansar: Perhaps you could simply take a look at my answers to see what I am looking for from you.

Clear
 
Clear:


The questions and answers might be as follows:


I would answer: Yes, there are hundreds if not thousands of Judao/christian writings; older traditions, pseudographia and many discuss the Lord God's plan of sending spirits to earth; the nature of those spirits; the purposes and methods of physical creation, as well as pre-creation controversies in heaven. Because of the vast quantity of data, one must limit discussions to specific themes. I then ask what the Muslim specifically wanted to know about.

Earliest writings indicate a creation from disorganized matter and NOT from "nothing". That is, the Lord God took of disorganized matter and organized it into all physical creations. The earliest writings do NOT support "magical" creation, or creation from "nothing", though creation from "nothing" has become the more popular tradition in modern christianity.



Clear

what do you mean by pseudographia? I don't understand what you mean by it in the context you have written-- to me is it is the production of meaningless written symbols imitating letters, the written equivalent of jargon aphasia!
by definition Jargon aphasia is a fluent or receptive aphasia in which the patient's speech is incomprehensible, but appears to make sense to them-- this unfortunately may result following a stroke ...

So I am not sure how the above can be used to describe G-D's plan for pre-creation? I'd be reluctant to accept writing that is less than lucid to describe the plan of a supreme being!...

further complicated by the need of G-D to work from disorganized matter.. well--from where did this disorganized matter come? What do you mean by that.. and how it is "magical" to believe that G-D created all of it.. as opposed to working from "Organized matter" which somehow he later fashioned.. in both cases a supreme being creates something... I am a little hesitant to see how your concept is superior to the ISlamic perspective? in fact it leaves me with an answered question of where the disorganized matter came from? Was there a bigger G-D that left a lesser G-D with disorganized matter to work with? It is absolutely nonsensical to me..

I'll use verses from two different (suras)chapters in the Quran to give you an Islamic perspective on "creation"...

Say: "Who is the Lord and Sustainer of the heavens and the earth?" Say: "(It is) Allah." Say: "Do ye then take (for worship) protectors other than Him, such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves?" Say: "Are the blind equal with those who see? Or the depths of darkness equal with Light?" Or do they assign to Allah partners who have created (anything) as He has created, so that the creation seemed to them similar? Say: "Allah is the Creator of all things: He is the One, the Supreme and Irresistible." Ar-Ra'd 13 16

Another can be found in Sura 52


فَلْيَأْتُوا بِحَدِيثٍ مِّثْلِهِ إِن كَانُوا صَادِقِينَ {34
}
[Yusufali 52:34] Let them then produce a recital like unto it,- If (it be) they speak the truth!
[Pickthal 52:34] Then let them produce speech the like thereof, if they are truthful.


أَمْ خُلِقُوا مِنْ غَيْرِ شَيْءٍ أَمْ هُمُ الْخَالِقُونَ {35}​
[Yusufali 52:35] Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators?
[Pickthal 52:35] Or were they created out of naught? Or are they the creators?


أَمْ خَلَقُوا السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ بَل لَّا يُوقِنُونَ {36
}
[Yusufali 52:36] Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief.
[Pickthal 52:36] Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they are sure of nothing!


أَمْ عِندَهُمْ خَزَائِنُ رَبِّكَ أَمْ هُمُ الْمُصَيْطِرُونَ {37
}
[Yusufali 52:37] Or are the Treasures of thy Lord with them, or are they the managers (of affairs)?
[Pickthal 52:37] Or do they own the treasures of thy Lord? Or have they been given charge (thereof)?


أَمْ لَهُمْ سُلَّمٌ يَسْتَمِعُونَ فِيهِ فَلْيَأْتِ مُسْتَمِعُهُم بِسُلْطَانٍ مُّبِينٍ {38
}
[Yusufali 52:38] Or have they a ladder, by which they can (climb up to heaven and) listen (to its secrets)? Then let (such a) listener of theirs produce a manifest proof.
[Pickthal 52:38] Or have they any stairway (unto heaven) by means of which they overhear (decrees). Then let their listener produce some warrant manifest!




If the answers given to you were unsatisfactory then I'd stick with your explanation as pleases your heart and mind and as fits with your life style..

peace!
 
Last edited:
PA

1)
what do you mean by pseudographia? I don't understand what you mean by it in the context you have written-- to me is it is the production of meaningless written symbols imitating letters, the written equivalent of jargon aphasia! by definition Jargon aphasia is a fluent or receptive aphasia in which the patient's speech is incomprehensible, but appears to make sense to them-- this unfortunately may result following a stroke ...- PurestAmbrosia

PureAmbrosia - are you sure you want to discuss these issues in this manner?

I cannot descend into word play or making fun of what we don’t understand. I simply don’t have the time in argument without a purpose. My purpose here was to obtain good information. If I cannot do this, I do not have any interest in staying here. I cannot tell if the answers are meant to help you appear smart, or meant to encourage me to leave the forum.

2)
Clears Question : Do the early Judo/Christian traditions [ahadith] or the Old Testament/Bible [quran] discuss in any detail the circumstances and purposes of God and spirits with him prior to the creation of this earth? - Clear

Clears answer : Yes, there are hundreds if not thousands of Judao/christian writings; older traditions, pseudographia and many discuss the Lord God's plan of sending spirits to earth; the nature of those spirits; the purposes and methods of physical creation, as well as pre-creation controversies in heaven. Because of the vast quantity of data, one must limit discussions to specific themes. I then ask what the Muslim specifically wanted to know about.

PureAmbrosia’s comment on clear’s answer: So I am not sure how the above can be used to describe G-D's plan for pre-creation? I'd be reluctant to accept writing that is less than lucid to describe the plan of a supreme being!...-PurestAmbrosia

Purest Ambrosia : I must be from another planet with different logic. For some reason, the questions I ask and the answers I get in this forum seem to be poorly unrelated. My original question was simply IF the ahadith discuss these things. Yes they do. No, they don’t. It is a very simple question.

I did not attempt to describe God’s Plan, but to merely insist that there are writings that describe the plan and conditions attending it.


3) Regarding material things being made with matter :

I am a little hesitant to see how your concept is superior to the ISlamic perspective? in fact it leaves me with an answered question of where the disorganized matter came from? Was there a bigger G-D that left a lesser G-D with disorganized matter to work with? It is absolutely nonsensical to me.. - PurestAmbrosia

I will leave you to the Islamic principle of using logic and reason to decide for yourself whether is it more reasonable to believe material things are made out of material, or out of nothing.

However, I might point out that the reason you are able to very quickly and decisively disagree is that I offered an understandable, firm doctrine for you to agree or disagree with. The better my description, the more easily you are able to determine that you disagree (or agree), and why you disagree (or agree).

If I cannot get clear answers on Islamic Doctrine, I cannot even get to the point of agreement OR disagreement. There is little chance of understanding between religions if we cannot talk clearly.

I am so very sorry to have wasted your time PurestAmbrosia. Thank you for your attempts to answer my questions. I do not think I can find what I need to find in this forum. I hope you find peace and happiness in your life.

Clear.

P.S. I've practiced medicine for almost 25 years. I understand the aphasias you describe. However, if I did not understand them, I could simply search for the definition on google. Perhaps you might want to take the few seconds it would take to look up the pseudographia.

Peace PA
 
PA

1)

PureAmbrosia - are you sure you want to discuss these issues in this manner?

I cannot descend into word play or making fun of what we don’t understand. I simply don’t have the time in argument without a purpose. My purpose here was to obtain good information. If I cannot do this, I do not have any interest in staying here. I cannot tell if the answers are meant to help you appear smart, or meant to encourage me to leave the forum.

This isn't word fun-- that is actually what I inferred from your written statement... during my undergrad/ and graduate years which I have dedicated in their entirety to science the word Pseudographia means that one thing-- Perhaps you can offer us something less illusive to work with? I don't believe anyone is holding you hostage on the forum. You came I assume through your own will, and you are certainly free to leave on the same accounts rather than resorting to these tantrums when not offered a reply to your liking?

[2)

Purest Ambrosia : I must be from another planet with different logic. For some reason, the questions I ask and the answers I get in this forum seem to be poorly unrelated. My original question was simply IF the ahadith discuss these things. Yes they do. No, they don’t. It is a very simple question.

I believe you were answered very adequately by the big guns on this fourm.

[I did not attempt to describe God’s Plan, but to merely insist that there are writings that describe the plan and conditions attending it.


3) Regarding material things being made with matter :

I will leave you to the Islamic principle of using logic and reason to decide for yourself whether is it more reasonable to believe material things are made out of material, or out of nothing.

I don't know that you can apply logic to something in the realm of the unknown a (belief)-- obviousely one concept to me is superior to another... for where did all the material things come from if there was no G-D to will them into being?



[I am so very sorry to have wasted your time PurestAmbrosia. Thank you for your attempts to answer my questions. I do not think I can find what I need to find in this forum. I hope you find peace and happiness in your life.

we wish you the same!

P.S. I've practiced medicine for almost 25 years. I understand the aphasias you describe. However, if I did not understand them, I could simply search for the definition on google. Perhaps you might want to take the few seconds it would take to look up the pseudographia.

Peace PA

Well that certainly outweighs my 1st year resident status-- so I bow humbly to you sir but that is what comes up on google! and in Dorland!

peace!
 

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