Clear - Before Adam / Creation
- Thread starter Clear
- Start date
- Replies 43
- Views 7K
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Halal Food Gastronomy | vBulletin 4 php 8.0 patch
Ansar
1) I very much believe in and agree with the principles that you offer. I have heard and offered similar points many times.
However they are wonderful answers to questions the philosophers did not ask. The philosophers and athiests I referred to ask why Allah did not make a creation without evil if he was able to do so and to accomplish the same characteristics in man that evil currently accomplishes.
Your answer says that “given the current conditions”, these are some of the good effects of evil in our lives (all of which I agree with).
They question why Allah “gives the current conditions” at all. Why not create conditions where man learns and has good characteristics without evil in the world.
2) Sure it 'lifts blame' in saying that it was not God's responsibility since He didn't create it, but it suggests it was beyond His control and therefore does not call into question Epicurus's argument that such a God bereft of omnipotence is no God at all.
Perhaps you could consider what might happen if Epicurus’s definition of omnipotence was wrong. I understand the modern Islamic and Christian definition that Allah / God can do “all things”. What if there are certain principles which are eternal as he is, principles and circumstances which simply are part of the way things are.
For example, moral principles of right and wrong. Do you believe that Allah can arbitrarily define what is good and bad, right and wrong? Can he arbitrarily have said that “It is now “Good” (not “evil”) to murder and kill the innocent for no other reason than pleasure? Can he arbitrarily say it is now “good” (not evil) to lie and cheat for personal gain at the expense of another person? Can he arbitrarily say that it is “good” (not evil) to rape women and children?
Pick any of the obvious evils and ask yourself if Allah / God is able to arbitrarily define and determine Good versus Evil. Such principles cannot be redefined arbitrarily.
Clear
1) I very much believe in and agree with the principles that you offer. I have heard and offered similar points many times.
However they are wonderful answers to questions the philosophers did not ask. The philosophers and athiests I referred to ask why Allah did not make a creation without evil if he was able to do so and to accomplish the same characteristics in man that evil currently accomplishes.
Your answer says that “given the current conditions”, these are some of the good effects of evil in our lives (all of which I agree with).
They question why Allah “gives the current conditions” at all. Why not create conditions where man learns and has good characteristics without evil in the world.
2) Sure it 'lifts blame' in saying that it was not God's responsibility since He didn't create it, but it suggests it was beyond His control and therefore does not call into question Epicurus's argument that such a God bereft of omnipotence is no God at all.
Perhaps you could consider what might happen if Epicurus’s definition of omnipotence was wrong. I understand the modern Islamic and Christian definition that Allah / God can do “all things”. What if there are certain principles which are eternal as he is, principles and circumstances which simply are part of the way things are.
For example, moral principles of right and wrong. Do you believe that Allah can arbitrarily define what is good and bad, right and wrong? Can he arbitrarily have said that “It is now “Good” (not “evil”) to murder and kill the innocent for no other reason than pleasure? Can he arbitrarily say it is now “good” (not evil) to lie and cheat for personal gain at the expense of another person? Can he arbitrarily say that it is “good” (not evil) to rape women and children?
Pick any of the obvious evils and ask yourself if Allah / God is able to arbitrarily define and determine Good versus Evil. Such principles cannot be redefined arbitrarily.
Clear
Ansar
I am sorry that I forgot to put your sentence in quotes for #2 in my last post. I cannot figure out how to return to my post and edit it....
#2 should start out as follows:
2)
the rest of the post is mine.
Sorry if this was confusing to anyone.
Clear
I am sorry that I forgot to put your sentence in quotes for #2 in my last post. I cannot figure out how to return to my post and edit it....
#2 should start out as follows:
2)
the rest of the post is mine.
Sorry if this was confusing to anyone.
Clear
Woodrow
May Allah have mercy on him رحمة الله عليه
- Messages
- 17,217
- Reaction score
- 4,224
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
Bro. Ansar has given you what are most likely the best answers that can be given here.
Most of us can just add personal views which may or may not be in agreement with the scholars and may not be true teachings.
I actually see much beauty and necessity in there being evil in the world. It is not so much a question of why Allah(swt) created evil, it is a question of why something was not created to prevent evil. I look at it in a simple manner. Think of eternal nothing before creation as being a blank black board. think of Allah(swt) writing on the black board and the writing being all that is created. What is left over is the absence of Allah(swt) and that is evil. It is our seperating ourselves from what Allah(swt) has created. That is called freedom of choice and free will. evil comes because we are created with choice. Choice is not possible unless we have the opposites of all things. So if we are to have choice, evil is a necessity so we are not forced to choose only good.
That is my analogy. Astagfirullah
Most of us can just add personal views which may or may not be in agreement with the scholars and may not be true teachings.
I actually see much beauty and necessity in there being evil in the world. It is not so much a question of why Allah(swt) created evil, it is a question of why something was not created to prevent evil. I look at it in a simple manner. Think of eternal nothing before creation as being a blank black board. think of Allah(swt) writing on the black board and the writing being all that is created. What is left over is the absence of Allah(swt) and that is evil. It is our seperating ourselves from what Allah(swt) has created. That is called freedom of choice and free will. evil comes because we are created with choice. Choice is not possible unless we have the opposites of all things. So if we are to have choice, evil is a necessity so we are not forced to choose only good.
That is my analogy. Astagfirullah
Woodrow
[/b]1)[/b] My point was that his answer did not respond to their question. It is an answer to a question they are not asking.
They would agree with Ansar that there are many times, good effects from evil. What they are asking is:
Why does allah create evil IF he is able to accomplish the same effects without evil.
2) Regarding Omnipotence - there are eternal principles which allah himself is subject to which answer the "why evil" question. Moral principles are part of such eternal "laws" which Islamic "Allah" or the Christian "God" did not arbitrarily create (not can they be changed), but are part of the nature of the way things "are".
As an example I pointed out that Allah / God, cannot arbitrarily say that what was evil, is now Good. These Moral principles are not re-definable in this way. Allah / God cannot say it is now "good" to murder the innocent, or to rape the innocent, or to steal from the innocent, etc.
What is "Good" and what is "Evil" for cognisant and empowered beings are eternal principles that cannot be changed, even by Allah or God.
IF there are unchanging and eternal principles, perhaps you could consider the implications of such eternal principles as they regard the presence of evil in this existence?
Clear
[/b]1)[/b] My point was that his answer did not respond to their question. It is an answer to a question they are not asking.
They would agree with Ansar that there are many times, good effects from evil. What they are asking is:
Why does allah create evil IF he is able to accomplish the same effects without evil.
2) Regarding Omnipotence - there are eternal principles which allah himself is subject to which answer the "why evil" question. Moral principles are part of such eternal "laws" which Islamic "Allah" or the Christian "God" did not arbitrarily create (not can they be changed), but are part of the nature of the way things "are".
As an example I pointed out that Allah / God, cannot arbitrarily say that what was evil, is now Good. These Moral principles are not re-definable in this way. Allah / God cannot say it is now "good" to murder the innocent, or to rape the innocent, or to steal from the innocent, etc.
What is "Good" and what is "Evil" for cognisant and empowered beings are eternal principles that cannot be changed, even by Allah or God.
IF there are unchanging and eternal principles, perhaps you could consider the implications of such eternal principles as they regard the presence of evil in this existence?
Clear
Woodrow
May Allah have mercy on him رحمة الله عليه
- Messages
- 17,217
- Reaction score
- 4,224
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
With no intent of malice and strictly from my own understanding and memory from logic classes I took nearly half a century ago.
To be honest while you have posed what appear to be very legitimate and valid questions. I view the questions to border on nonsensical and not being valid question.
A non-valid question being one that is constructed in the grammatical form of a question, but the question itself is flawed by being illogical. An example being "What would happen if an irresistible force hits an immovable object?"
Sounds like a question, looks like a question, but logically can not exist. By definition if you have an immovable object you have ruled out the possibility of there being an irresistible force, unless both are the same entity in which case the question is a moot point.
Your questions are attempting to place human qualities and attributes to Allah(swt) who is outside the realm of human attributes.
Evil is a human concept in the terms we use it. Now if we accept the fact that Allah(swt) created everything then he must have created evil. we have failed to understand that evil is not a creation, what was created is man's ability to do evil, it is a human concept of what actions or things will seperate us from Allah(swt).
Then you have the concept of labeling things such as plagues, floods, fires, as being evil creations. those are tangible visible things. However, none of them on it's own is capable of evil, it is only our thoughts and reactions to them that can give them the human quality of evil. Evil is a human quality.
It is our choice to do things that separate us from following Allah(swt). some people are just better qualified at carrying it to a larger degree than the rest of us.
Ansar Al-'Adl
Jewel of LI
- Messages
- 4,681
- Reaction score
- 922
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
Hi Clear,
My explanation was not based on 'current conditions', I explained clearly why God created things like this in the first place. I don't know if you skipped over the entire part about angels or why God didn't just make us good in the first place, or just place us in heaven. I would encourage you to read over this article again:
http://www.islamicboard.com/273965-post12.html
These are not answers to questions atheists did not ask; Dr. Lang was an atheist with the same objections and he found them resolved through Islamic theology as explained in the above article.
These are answers to the very same question you keep repeating, I'm not sure why there seems to be a communication gap.
Regards
My explanation was not based on 'current conditions', I explained clearly why God created things like this in the first place. I don't know if you skipped over the entire part about angels or why God didn't just make us good in the first place, or just place us in heaven. I would encourage you to read over this article again:
http://www.islamicboard.com/273965-post12.html
These are not answers to questions atheists did not ask; Dr. Lang was an atheist with the same objections and he found them resolved through Islamic theology as explained in the above article.
These are answers to the very same question you keep repeating, I'm not sure why there seems to be a communication gap.
Regards
Woodrow
Woodrow - I have heard this argument in the Christian forums many times and it's relationship to semantics and word play. Religionists will say:
"God did not create evil. God created men who "created" or "do" the evil."
To the philosopher this is like saying :
The Man did not create (do) evil. The man created the time bomb and the bomb itself "did" the evil.
Semantics goes both ways Woodrow. It is difficult for me to understand why you and Ansar to not understand the philosopher's question.
If Allah had complete control over his creation and all ingredients that went into his creation, and possessed the omniscience to know what the results of his creation would be, then he is responsible. (I do not believe Allah IS responsible for evil. I am simply describing logic that comes from the religious claim that Allah - God created ALL things and yet was also omniscient as to the consequences of his creation)
I am a christian theist and DO believe all of the benefits of character you are discussing. I believe ALL of these benefits are necessary as you do. These are principles common to both Islam and to Christianity
BUT, THAT is NOT the philosophers question they are asking. They are asking: Why does Allah create evil IF he possessed the ability to accomplishes all his purposes without evil? Does he lack the power to accomplish his purposes without evil? If he does, then why create evil?
THIS is their question.
Ansar :
I have read the link you gave me in your last post three times. I do NOT see the answer to the above question anywhere.
The bulk of the link is a very well done and wonderful series of ponderings as to why things ARE the way they are and the benefits that come from the way things are, but NONE of these ponderings applies to the question as to Why Allah could not have done the very same things without creating evil? (i.e. done things differently)
Perhaps you could tell me the sentence in the links musing that has anything to do with THIS question the philosphers and athiest are asking.
The link says this reader of the Quran had only thirty pages to go "and still could not find what real purpose life served".... He remarks that "My Muslim friends were of little help. They often did not really understand my questions,...". Do you want me to try to explain the question further?
Woodrow and Ansar - I did not come to debate these questions. I wanted more information on Islamic doctrines regarding the circumstances and purposes of and manner of creation of this world and others from the Islamic perspective. It is ok if you simply say you don't know, or that Islam doesn't have such information, I'll skip the question altogether, especially if it creates some discomfort.
It is not worth creating disharmony for me to have these answers, but to simply claim the athiests and agnostics are asking silly and nonsensical questions is not of much help to them. To them, such questions are important.
Clear
Woodrow - I have heard this argument in the Christian forums many times and it's relationship to semantics and word play. Religionists will say:
"God did not create evil. God created men who "created" or "do" the evil."
To the philosopher this is like saying :
The Man did not create (do) evil. The man created the time bomb and the bomb itself "did" the evil.
Semantics goes both ways Woodrow. It is difficult for me to understand why you and Ansar to not understand the philosopher's question.
If Allah had complete control over his creation and all ingredients that went into his creation, and possessed the omniscience to know what the results of his creation would be, then he is responsible. (I do not believe Allah IS responsible for evil. I am simply describing logic that comes from the religious claim that Allah - God created ALL things and yet was also omniscient as to the consequences of his creation)
I am a christian theist and DO believe all of the benefits of character you are discussing. I believe ALL of these benefits are necessary as you do. These are principles common to both Islam and to Christianity
BUT, THAT is NOT the philosophers question they are asking. They are asking: Why does Allah create evil IF he possessed the ability to accomplishes all his purposes without evil? Does he lack the power to accomplish his purposes without evil? If he does, then why create evil?
THIS is their question.
Ansar :
I have read the link you gave me in your last post three times. I do NOT see the answer to the above question anywhere.
The bulk of the link is a very well done and wonderful series of ponderings as to why things ARE the way they are and the benefits that come from the way things are, but NONE of these ponderings applies to the question as to Why Allah could not have done the very same things without creating evil? (i.e. done things differently)
Perhaps you could tell me the sentence in the links musing that has anything to do with THIS question the philosphers and athiest are asking.
The link says this reader of the Quran had only thirty pages to go "and still could not find what real purpose life served".... He remarks that "My Muslim friends were of little help. They often did not really understand my questions,...". Do you want me to try to explain the question further?
Woodrow and Ansar - I did not come to debate these questions. I wanted more information on Islamic doctrines regarding the circumstances and purposes of and manner of creation of this world and others from the Islamic perspective. It is ok if you simply say you don't know, or that Islam doesn't have such information, I'll skip the question altogether, especially if it creates some discomfort.
It is not worth creating disharmony for me to have these answers, but to simply claim the athiests and agnostics are asking silly and nonsensical questions is not of much help to them. To them, such questions are important.
Clear
Woodrow
May Allah have mercy on him رحمة الله عليه
- Messages
- 17,217
- Reaction score
- 4,224
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
We were created to have free will. With having a choice to do either good or evil, If evil did not exist, we would not have free will. Evil is one side of free will.
I do not know why He chose to create us with free will, but that is how He created us and for true free to exist evil is necessary.
Woodrow
I very much agree with your statement. The principle requirement of having free will is another principle that is part of the way things are. Even Allah MUST operate by certain moral principles that are as eternal as he is. Even Allah / God MUST operate within eternal moral principles and they are not arbitrary.
I very much agree with your statement. The principle requirement of having free will is another principle that is part of the way things are. Even Allah MUST operate by certain moral principles that are as eternal as he is. Even Allah / God MUST operate within eternal moral principles and they are not arbitrary.
Woodrow -
I read my post and since I cannot figure out how to go back and edit it, I thought I would clarify. I very much agree with your statement that we were meant to have free will. Free will and it's relation to evil IS an eternal principle that is part of the way things "are".
This is what I mean by the statement that Allah MUST operate by certain moral principles that are as eternal as he is. He is not able to operate outside of certain moral principles since No being, not even God/Allah, has the power to do so in any arbitrary manner. Such eternal natural laws of morality cannot be overcome.
Clear
I read my post and since I cannot figure out how to go back and edit it, I thought I would clarify. I very much agree with your statement that we were meant to have free will. Free will and it's relation to evil IS an eternal principle that is part of the way things "are".
This is what I mean by the statement that Allah MUST operate by certain moral principles that are as eternal as he is. He is not able to operate outside of certain moral principles since No being, not even God/Allah, has the power to do so in any arbitrary manner. Such eternal natural laws of morality cannot be overcome.
Clear
Ansar Al-'Adl
Jewel of LI
- Messages
- 4,681
- Reaction score
- 922
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
Hi Clear,
1 - It's apparent that we're going in circles here. I feel that the question as to why God could not have done the same thing without percieved evil has been answered explicity and repeatedly with mention of how that would have been no different from the angels and that the virtues of humanity over them could only be accomplished via struggling through tribulations. I specifically answered also why God did not just make us 'good' and place us all in heaven in the first place. Now for some reason you feel that the real question has not even been touched on, and you certainly are free to feel that way, though we'll have to leave it at that.
2 - I also mentioned clearly that if you're trying to find support in Islamic doctrines for your philosophy of God not creating all things, you will not find it. The Qur'an mentions unequivocally that God is the Creator of ALL things and this is a fundamental tenet of Islamic theology. The moral laws are a reflection of God's nature and not external principles to which He is bound. So the answers to your questions are very clear and it does not create any discomfort.
Peace.
1 - It's apparent that we're going in circles here. I feel that the question as to why God could not have done the same thing without percieved evil has been answered explicity and repeatedly with mention of how that would have been no different from the angels and that the virtues of humanity over them could only be accomplished via struggling through tribulations. I specifically answered also why God did not just make us 'good' and place us all in heaven in the first place. Now for some reason you feel that the real question has not even been touched on, and you certainly are free to feel that way, though we'll have to leave it at that.
2 - I also mentioned clearly that if you're trying to find support in Islamic doctrines for your philosophy of God not creating all things, you will not find it. The Qur'an mentions unequivocally that God is the Creator of ALL things and this is a fundamental tenet of Islamic theology. The moral laws are a reflection of God's nature and not external principles to which He is bound. So the answers to your questions are very clear and it does not create any discomfort.
Peace.
Ansar
I thank you for your knowledge of modern Islamic doctrine and diligent to attempt to answer these example questions the philosophers ask. I do not see any difference between them and similar questions on the christian forums. Such questions raise similar quandry and discomfort for most religionists. Thank you for your patience.
Woodrow
Thank you for your answers as well. I think that the bottom line is that there are individual Islamic opinions on but no significant hadith or quranic literature to add to the ancient histories regarding the events prior to the creation of this earth. Please let me know if I am wrong.
Clear
I thank you for your knowledge of modern Islamic doctrine and diligent to attempt to answer these example questions the philosophers ask. I do not see any difference between them and similar questions on the christian forums. Such questions raise similar quandry and discomfort for most religionists. Thank you for your patience.
Woodrow
Thank you for your answers as well. I think that the bottom line is that there are individual Islamic opinions on but no significant hadith or quranic literature to add to the ancient histories regarding the events prior to the creation of this earth. Please let me know if I am wrong.
Clear
Woodrow
May Allah have mercy on him رحمة الله عليه
- Messages
- 17,217
- Reaction score
- 4,224
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
Woodrow
Yes, there are individual opinions. But, the opinions are required to be within the guidelines of not going against anything stated in the Qur'an. Because it is our opinion, we do need to state when it is our opinion and not try to claim it to be any Islamic teaching. Because something is not against the Qur'an, does not mean it is Allah's(swt) word. We are Humans and our opinions are subject to error.
Woodrow
Thank you for the explanation. I think that many Christians make the same Claim regarding their scriptures (i.e. something can be true only if it consistent with scriptures). However, what THEY feel is consistent depends upon their personal interpretation of scriptures.
Because of my own historical and life context, personality, etc, I do not interpret the Quran the same as some of the others here. Thus, my "Quranic based" theology may be different than another persons "Quranic based" theology.
Again, I thank you Woodrow for all of your opinions and information.
Clear
Thank you for the explanation. I think that many Christians make the same Claim regarding their scriptures (i.e. something can be true only if it consistent with scriptures). However, what THEY feel is consistent depends upon their personal interpretation of scriptures.
Because of my own historical and life context, personality, etc, I do not interpret the Quran the same as some of the others here. Thus, my "Quranic based" theology may be different than another persons "Quranic based" theology.
Again, I thank you Woodrow for all of your opinions and information.
Clear
Woodrow
May Allah have mercy on him رحمة الله عليه
- Messages
- 17,217
- Reaction score
- 4,224
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
Although the Qur'an itself can be a stand alone guide, it is best to seek the opinions of others also. For this we have the Sunnah, Ahadith and various Tasfirs.
Ansar Al-'Adl
Jewel of LI
- Messages
- 4,681
- Reaction score
- 922
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
I specifically corrected that misunderstanding. You are certainly free to reject the answer given on whatever grounds you like, but let's avoid what's unneccessary.
Thanks
What is "unnecessary" Ansar, is taking offense when no offense is intended. I did not offer you any offense, don't take any. I am NOT offended nor feel "superior" somehow simply because you cannot answer my questions. There are a hundred religious questions that we are simply not given the answer to by Allah. It is NO shame to not know the answer.
However, don't be frustrated or take offense if I point out that your posts don't answer my question. It's ok NOT to have the answers.
Clear
جوري
Soldier Through It!
- Messages
- 27,759
- Reaction score
- 6,095
- Gender
- Female
- Religion
- Islam
Clear:
May I ask and purely out of curiosity... if I had posed your same set of questions on the Christian forums where you participate, how then would you have answered?
in other words what is a satisfactory answer from your stand point?
May I ask and purely out of curiosity... if I had posed your same set of questions on the Christian forums where you participate, how then would you have answered?
in other words what is a satisfactory answer from your stand point?
Ansar Al-'Adl
Jewel of LI
- Messages
- 4,681
- Reaction score
- 922
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
Clear - Like I said before, there is no discomfort, I am not taking offense, and I feel that I have answered your questions directly, explicitly and irrefutably to boot. Now if you choose not to accept the answers, nor offer any critique or response to them whatsoever, it doesn't bother me, that's your choice. But please stop trying to project emotions on other people that don't belong there. Stick to the topic of the discussion rather than trying to describe others as "feeling discomfort" or "taking offense". Trust me, if I found your comments offensive, I would be the first to let you know.
Regards
Regards