Competitor for the Holy Qur'an

[جوري]

Will comment on your first point in a bit.

I still don't see your point, the fact that he plagiarized is common knowledge to anyone who picks up a book and reads it and makes a comparison. by the way I had answered you sufficiently but my two posts were removed! thus I still insist you show me where I have copied it word for word from wiki? If you are going to accuse little boy at least stand by your charges..
The rest is just a bunch of drivel.. if you bring a topic to the table it becomes incumbent upon you to prove your point.Point out the downfalls, the similarities, I expect that you have some dextrity of language of exegetical and critical interpretation, I expect that you meet the challenge on every level
1- political
2- economical
3- governmental
4-poetical
5-social
6- as well as infleunce including that which deals with every day life -- show me where another text has had that kind of profound and prophetical impact..

This has nothing to do with what I have read or haven't read.. there is no way for you to judge that until you bring some actual beef to the table.
This isn't a contest of machismo and insults.. you can't handle a topic don't bring it up or decide the cowards insults are the best way out.
peace!

 

[جوري]

تَبَارَكَ الَّذِي جَعَلَ فِي السَّمَاء بُرُوجًا وَجَعَلَ فِيهَا سِرَاجًا وَقَمَرًا مُّنِيرًا {61}​

[Pickthal 25:61] Blessed be He Who hath placed in the heaven mansions of the stars, and hath placed therein a great lamp and a moon giving light!
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 25:61]
says:
Buruj (constellations) refers to the signs of the Zodiac, which mark the path of the planets in the heavens. See commentary of Hijr : 16.

A conundrum indeed are these Quranic verses.. to insaan 7aqeer, zhaleel wo kaffir!....

The Qur'an And Modern Science
The Qur'an, as the final word of God, anticipated many of the modern scientific discoveries which were beyond human imagination 14 centuries ago. The Muslim scientific revolution, which produced the renaissance that put Muslims at the top of the civilized world for 8 centuries, was a result of contemplating the clues in the Qur'an about the physical world.

This separates the Qur'an from other religious texts which were limited to the knowledge of the people at the time the text was completed.

Muslims always considered the Qur'an a miracle. The Qur'an is a living miracle that can be verified today by anyone and does not depend on accepting ancient accounts of miracles without question.

The following examples show modern discoveries that are consistent with the Qur'an:

The heavens and the earth were one before they were ripped apart. Life started in the water and living things are mostly water [21:30]. Today when scientists look for traces of life on Mars or Jupiter moons, they look for water!
Reptiles came out of the water and were followed by two legged then 4 legged creatures [24:45].
The heavens are expanding [51:47]. Modern science tells us that the universe was started from a singularity. The pictures taken by Edwin Hubbell in Mount Wilson observatory in 1929 showed that the universe was expanding which led to the Big Bang theory. The Qur'an anticipated this "discovery" by 14 centuries.
The heaven used to be smoke [41:11]. We know that smoke is a mixture of hot gases and suspended particles.
The atom is not the smallest unit of matter in the universe which indicates the presence of subatomic particles! [34:3]
The Universe was created over a very long period. For God, some days last 1000 lunar years [22:47, 32:5]. This was used by Professor Mansour Hassab-Elnaby, an Egyptian physicist, to calculate the speed of light C=299792.5 km/s !!!
The Qur'an predicts that the speed of light is not the fastest speed in the universe. Spirits and angels proceed to God at 50 times the speed of light [70:4]
The earth rotates around its axis [27:88], rotates around the sun [7:54], is not flat but is like a ball [39:5] or an egg [79:30].
The lowest point on earth is near the dead sea [30:3].
Iron was sent to earth by God [57:25]. Scientists now believe that iron was introduced to earth by meteors.
The oceans have layers of waves and layers of darkness in which some creatures have light [24:40]. Scientists discovered recently different currents at different depths.
When different seas ( i.e. different in salinity, temperature, oxygen content, etc. ) meet, there is a barrier between them that they do not violate [55:19-20]. This is not apparent by visual observation but temperature sensitive satellite pictures confirm this.
Mountains are pegs that have roots extending below the surface of the earth [78:7], mountains stabilize the earth's crust by minimizing earthquakes [16:15].
Earthquakes precede volcanic eruptions [99:1].
The earth's core is heavier than its crust [99:2].
Our sun is not the only sun in the universe [25:61]. Modern astronomy tells us that the sun is actually a star and therefore the universe is full of suns. Astronomers are looking for other planets like ours. The Qur'an predicts they will find other planets [65:12] The Bible differentiates the sun and the moon by size only: "God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars" [Genesis 1:16]. The Qur'an tells us that: the sun is a shining glory while the moon is a light [10:5]; the sun is a lamp and the moon is a light [25:61,71:16]; the sun is a blazing lamp [78:13] .
The solar system is travelling through the universe to a final destination [36:38].
At the end of time, the sun will stop radiating energy and will be folded into a ball [ 81:1] (quasar? Black hole?)
Morning is associated with breathing [81:18]. Now we know that plants produce oxygen in presence of light and consume carbon dioxide.
Sperm attaches itself to the egg to form an attachment or a leach then a chewed-like lump which develops bones which are covered with flesh and then changed into a different form [ 23:14]. This refers to facts discovered only recently when scientists, using special scopes, followed the development of the fetus from a fertilized egg to a form resembling lower vertebrae before turning into the human form.
After contemplating the descriptions of embryonic stages as a leach then a chewed-like lump [23:14], Professor Keith Moore, a Canadian embryologist, compared pictures of different embryonic stages to pictures of leaches and chewed clay and confirmed the amazing accuracy of the Qur'anic verses.
Human pregnancy passes through 3 trimesters [39:6]
Different clouds (positively and negatively charged?) are harmonized to produce droplets of water and lightning [24:43].
This is not surprising since The Qur'an came to detail and explain everything and to settle differences of opinions [12:111, 16:64, 16:89].


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the meaning of the verse is highlighted.. try not to be so ambiguous when looking for the nature or significance in a verse... Make your intentions known, and hat min el'akher so we'd know what it is you are looking for?

 

[جوري]

only befitting if he wrote in these Arabized English that he is looking for an answer in Arabic after all?.. here is tafsir ibn Kathir.. which I think is excellent

تَبَارَكَ الَّذِي جَعَلَ فِي السَّمَاءِ بُرُوجًا وَجَعَلَ فِيهَا سِرَاجًا وَقَمَرًا مُنِيرًا

يَقُول تَعَالَى مُمَجِّدًا نَفْسه وَمُعَظِّمًا عَلَى جَمِيل مَا خَلَقَ فِي السَّمَوَات مِنْ الْبُرُوج وَهِيَ الْكَوَاكِب الْعِظَام فِي قَوْل مُجَاهِد وَسَعِيد بْن جُبَيْر وَأَبِي صَالِح وَالْحَسَن وَقَتَادَة وَقِيلَ هِيَ قُصُور فِي السَّمَاء لِلْحَرْسِ يُرْوَى هَذَا عَنْ عَلِيّ وَابْن عَبَّاس وَمُحَمَّد بْن كَعْب وَإِبْرَاهِيم النَّخَعِيّ وَسُلَيْمَان بْن مِهْرَان الْأَعْمَش وَهُوَ رِوَايَة عَنْ أَبِي صَالِح أَيْضًا وَالْقَوْل الْأَوَّل أَظْهَر اللَّهُمَّ إِلَّا أَنْ يَكُون الْكَوَاكِب الْعِظَام هِيَ قُصُور لِلْحَرْسِ فَيَجْتَمِع الْقَوْلَانِ كَمَا قَالَ تَعَالَى " وَلَقَدْ زَيَّنَّا السَّمَاء الدُّنْيَا بِمَصَابِيح" الْآيَة وَلِهَذَا قَالَ تَعَالَى " تَبَارَكَ الَّذِي جَعَلَ فِي السَّمَاء بُرُوجًا وَجَعَلَ فِيهَا سِرَاجًا " وَهِيَ الشَّمْس الْمُنِيرَة الَّتِي هِيَ كَالسِّرَاجِ فِي الْوُجُود كَمَا قَالَ تَعَالَى " وَجَعَلْنَا سِرَاجًا وَهَّاجًا " " وَقَمَرًا مُنِيرًا " أَيْ مُشْرِقًا مُضِيئًا بِنُورٍ آخَر مِنْ غَيْر نُور الشَّمْس كَمَا قَالَ تَعَالَى " وَهُوَ الَّذِي جَعَلَ الشَّمْس ضِيَاء وَالْقَمَر نُورًا " وَقَالَ مُخْبِرًا عَنْ نُوح عَلَيْهِ السَّلَام أَنَّهُ قَالَ لِقَوْمِهِ " أَلَمْ تَرَوْا كَيْف خَلَقَ اللَّه سَبْع سَمَوَات طِبَاقًا وَجَعَلَ الْقَمَر فِيهِنَّ نُورًا وَجَعَلَ الشَّمْس سِرَاجًا ​

I know exactly your purpose of the above verse, and I even know which websites you go to to get your explanation but I believe the answer lies in what the difference is between
Alshams sirajan wahajan and Alqamar nooran
Ashams dya'a walqamar noor ( daw, and noor are the same thing then I think they would have both been used interchangeably but they are NOT!.. ibn katheer has done an immaculate job highlighting the difference, since you have this very unusual and impressive ability to write Arabized english yet have a difficult time interpreting text, I hope that sufficed an answer to your query?

 

[Basirah]

I do not know why some of my posts are deleted, but anyway, my "arabized english" is a result of me not having an arabic typing keyboard like you do.

Either way the answer your provided is interesting... However, in Islam are commentaries like this deserving of being put on an infallible level?

 

[جوري]

I do not know why some of my posts are deleted,

When you use Anti-Islamic websites they get removed. I don't use anti anything websites and still have my posts removed.. deal with it!

but anyway, my "arabized english" is a result of me not having an arabic typing keyboard like you do.

presumptuous yet again, I don't have an Arabic key-board yet this forum is Arabic enabled, all you need to do is but cut and paste from Any Quran that is in Arabic.. and it will show! lastly, it would be oh oh oh so very easy for you to reference us to the verse and the chapter that you need discussed.. we are not going to suddenly recognize how you were mistreated at the hands of Muslims who coerced you into memorizing the Quran, which surprisingly you grew up to question and think of its errors on your own accord.. especially when you quote us infi**ls website -- I think everyone here sees through the transparency of your charade so how about you cut the cr@p and tell us what you want?

Either way the answer your provided is interesting... However, in Islam are commentaries like this deserving of being put on an infallible level?

is that a rhetorical question? it is infallible, until a lucid mind without an agenda can find fallacy in it! Ibn Kathir was born in 1301.. far away is he from the discoveries of modern day to try to incorporate islamic text to fit the tides.. further I believe bros. Ansar answered your orientalists adequately, unless you are really into recycling?
peace!

 

[barney]

Jumping back to a point earlier.
Part of the "miracle" is that it can be Remembered & Recited.

If you take a billion people and get them to hear something 5 times a day every day of their lives and out of those billion several million Choose to spend the rest of their days for all of their lives reading and reciting the same book....then it's likely that a few of them will have remembered it all.

You could do the same with any book if it's not too long, and The quran isnt that long really.

 

[جوري]

the Quran is comprable to the bible in length!
from another post

there are 114 chapters 6236 verses in the Quran whilst there are 260 chapters 7958 verses in the NT... go ahead and confirm that for yourself... So I fail to see why it should take years to read the NT whereas the Quran or the OT can be covered in a shorter span of time say a (month)?... it is also one thing to read the book and a whole other thing to discern and understand what you are reading...

I can cover Marker a 672 page book by Robin Cook in as much time as it took me to board from London Heathrow to New York JFK, and it will be satisfactory read--whereas a comparable book in thickness--like Wheater's Functional Histology (413 pages) slightly less page wise ( would take me 3 months to read-- & a life time's experience to implement and become familiar with its contents as relates to my every day needs-- and maybe even supplement it with Robbins Review of Pathology) for the whole picture to be adequate! .... compare that analogy to reading the Quran before stating, look at the double standards of that convert :rollseyes

The Quran isn't about reading parables, and having a strict or loose interpretation every century as per whims; The Quran is about implementing morality into your every day, and supplementing with the hadiths.. it is in fact a way of life.. a Constant as it has been since first revealed. I will not turn this into another ugly debate... I am glad you love Christianity but stop these infantile & obscene comparisons ... You are not in every household to see who has learned what or who has converted due to what reasons.

Enough!...


peace

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

....You could do the same with any book if it's not too long, and The quran isnt that long really.

So , here is the Conclusion



Quran is the only holy book in the earth ever that is memorised by millions & is being recited ( from memory ) 5 times daily by millions...Amazing kay:





The Divine Book Of Allah



Quran – A living miracle!


Subhan Allah

Alhamdulillah

Allahu Akbar


verses we all need for this life & the hereafter

Consider the heavens and that which comes in the night!

And what could make you conceive what it is that comes in the night? It is the star that pierces through [life's] darkness: [for] no human being has ever been left unguarded.


-Quran (86:1-4)

God invites [man] unto the abode of peace, and guides him that wills onto a straight way.

-Quran (10:25)

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace


The mystery in Iron Miracle of the Quran


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMr-quZaZZE

( did not see the video ...if by any chance it has any anti Islmaic info , pl. let me or mod know...thanks )


The Miracle of Iron



HARUN YAHYA


Iron is one of the elements highlighted in the Qur'an.


In Surat al-Hadid, meaning Iron, we are informed:

And We also sent down iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind… (Qur’an, 57:25)



The word “anzalna,” translated as "sent down" and used for iron in the verse, could be thought of having a metaphorical meaning to explain that iron has been given to benefit people.



But, when we take into consideration the literal meaning of the word, which is, "being physically sent down from the sky," as in the case of rain and Sun rays, we realize that this verse implies a very significant scientific miracle.



....The fact that particular attention is drawn to iron in the Qur’an also emphasises the importance of the element.


In addition, there is another hidden truth in the Qur’an which draws attention to the importance of iron: Surat al-Hadid 25, which refers to iron, contains two rather interesting mathematical codes.




“Al- Hadid” is the 57th sura in the Qur’an. The abjad of the word “Al-Hadid” in Arabic, when the numerological values of its letters are added up, is also 57.



The numerological value of the word “hadid” alone is 26. And 26 is the atomic number of iron.

http://www.harunyahya.com/articles/70miracle_of_iron.php

 

[ranma1/2]

numerlogical value? and apart from isnt that cool, so what?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace

numerlogical value? ...... so what?

So , without the help of any computer / calculator , Muhammed (p) ..an illiterate person ‘ wrote ‘ a book that has so many miracles including the numerical one .. think about it .

**
Quran A Living Miracle-God Speaking Direct


[SIZE=-1]Today on TheDeenShow we have a man who has memorized the entire verbatim words of God since the age of 9[/SIZE]


http://www.metacafe.com/watch/688960/thedeenshow_quran_a_living_miracle_god_speaking_direct_listen

did not see /listen ...if by any chance it has any anti Islmaic info , pl. let me or mod know...thanks
**

[FONT=Century Gothic, Arial, Helvetica]Eternal Miracle[/FONT]

Al-Quran is the only ever living miracle.





Today no other miracle of any prophet exists. According to a survey, the number of Huffaz (persons who have memorized the whole Quran) today is more than 10 million.



Millions of editions and copies were printed and handwritten in almost every part of the world.





They were also translated into most of the languages of mankind. During the period of over 1400 years since the Quran was revealed, not a single letter was changed. This is one of the greatest miracles of the Quran.

http://www.islam101.com/dawah/WhatIsQuran.html

**

verses we all need for this life & the hereafter



"Neither did you (O Muhammad) read any book before it (the Qur'an) nor did you write (any book) with your right hand, in that case the followers of falsehood might have doubted."










'Did you think that We had created you without any purpose and that you would never return to Us (for accountability)?'

-Quran (23:115)

 

[جوري]

Salaam/peace

So , without the help of any computer / calculator , Muhammed (p) ..an illiterate person

‘ wrote ‘ a book that has so many miracles including the numerical one .. think about it .

verses we all need for this life & the hereafter

"Neither did you (O Muhammad) read any book before it (the Qur'an) nor did you write (any book) with your right hand, in that case the followers of falsehood might have doubted."

'Did you think that We had created you without any purpose and that you would never return to Us (for accountability)?'

-Quran (23:115)

he isn't here to think dear sister, he is here to mock you.. I really think we should focus our efforts on the sincere folks who come to learn.. I see Masha'Allah a few would be converts with questions.. and I sense sincerity in their heart and a willingness to learn and politeness in mannerism.
I think that is where we need to channel our efforts.
Every forum has a few trolls and jesters.. so ukhty for me pls. don't allow Allah or his prophet to be an object of ridicule by his ilk... There is plenty of forums where he can do that freely-- and his reward and his like shall lie with his maker.. as far as I am concerned it is our job to clarify that which is shady.. when we have done so to a level that is satisfactory and the topic still takes these degenerative turns then I suggest we just cease.. eventually they'll go away. Yesterday I provided three articles under the dinosaur thread and they weren't even read as the same questions were posed yet again!
it is clear what this is about by definition.. I am starting to find so much wisdom in the way Bros. Qatada presented his posts!..

Jazaki Allah khyran :smile:

 

[Basirah]

Today no other miracle of any prophet exists. According to a survey, the number of Huffaz (persons who have memorized the whole Quran) today is more than 10 million.

Yes, when you tell children to memmorize something at an early age, you will generally out of a pool of a billion people get those results.

When you use Anti-Islamic websites they get removed. I don't use anti anything websites and still have my posts removed.. deal with it!

Secularweb is an anti-islamic site? I posted a debate on god's existance after a muslim member was under the allusion the burden is on me to prove his non-existance!

 

[جوري]

Yes, when you tell children to memmorize something at an early age, you will generally out of a pool of a billion people get those results.

It seems a sore point for you? You keep bringing it up on every post as if you wish to extinguish the Quran from their memory? I suppose you should advocate so staunchly on behalf of all those children forced to learn piano (I was one of the by the way) and all those forced to go to their dance recital... You are no more forced to dance than you are to recite, if it is your curriculum.. Let's all just sit home and play all day to your satisfaction?

Secularweb is an anti-islamic site? I posted a debate on god's existance after a muslim member was under the allusion the burden is on me to prove his non-existance!

hansta3bat 3la ba3d? You know very well the purpose of that site.. hence you keep quoting it in disguise as if the rest of us have never navigated our fingers there to see exactly the sort of bull they write which you arabize later in the guise of 'forced to learn, forced to memorize' has that worked well for you? Being deceptive that is?
if you are happy in your state, then I suggest you not waste your life in highlight of what has led you to become non-Muslim... I don't believe you were ever one to begin with!
I wasn't following you debate with him to know exactly what sort of lines it fell under.. but given your previous history here, I can very well have a clear picture.
If the burden did indeed fall on you.. might I suggest some free thought instead of borrowing someone else's homework, that would make for basic ethics?

 

[Basirah]

hansta3bat 3la ba3d? You know very well the purpose of that site.. hence you keep quoting it in disguise as if the rest of us have never navigated our fingers there to see exactly the sort of bull they write which you arabize later in the guise of 'forced to learn, forced to memorize' has that worked well for you? Being deceptive that is?
if you are happy in your state, then I suggest you not waste your life in highlight of what has led you to become non-Muslim... I don't believe you were ever one to begin with!
I wasn't following you debate with him to know exactly what sort of lines it fell under.. but given your previous history here, I can very well have a clear picture.
If the burden did indeed fall on you.. might I suggest some free thought instead of borrowing someone else's homework, that would make for basic ethics?

You do not know me at all, and I really could care less to share anything with you. Please show me where I have gotten anything from secularweb without posting the link to it, which I did in my posts which were deleted.

I could care less if you believe I was a Muslim or not, when one grows up in Pakistan they are forced fed religion. To say I was ever a true believer is of course false!

Anyway, the burden never fell to me in the argument. But the false belief that it did motivated me to find some quick material that the person arguing with me could look over.

As for copy and pasting "scientific miracles" of the Quran which are others homework, well I can find plenty of guilty.

 

[جوري]

You do not know me at all, and I really could care less to share anything with you. Please show me where I have gotten anything from secularweb without posting the link to it, which I did in my posts which were deleted.

I don't need to.. I can have a clear picture from your writing-- linking us to the website doesn't qualify for free thought, especially not for someone who supposedly broke away from his prison. The saddest part isn't the parts you link, it is what you feign was your own, like writing something in Arabized English, as I see the exact same argument made on that site.. in the least cover your tracks so the story appears more believable. If you are going to argue against something, please pick up the book and tell us what you think ails it, not have argument number 59 from a kaffir website. Shame on you!

I could care less if you believe I was a Muslim or not, when one grows up in Pakistan they are forced fed religion. To say I was ever a true believer is of course false!

if you couldn't care less then there is no point in injecting the post with your sad upbringing and your so-called Pakistani roots.. should have at least stuck to an Arabic country where you were whipped with a cane, to make the discussion more animated.

Anyway, the burden never fell to me in the argument. But the false belief that it did motivated me to find some quick material that the person arguing with me could look over.

That doesn't make for a very good debate at all now does it.. anything you 'believe' with some conviction should require some abstract free thought, even in the event you can't save face right away!

As for copy and pasting "scientific miracles" of the Quran which are others homework, well I can find plenty of guilty.

it seems you were dissatisfied no matter what was presented you.. and I have seen under the refutation section people expending a large chunk of time rebutting your borrowed nonsense with good honest effort that was never to your satisfaction. What is the point? my website can kick your website's A$$?
The way I see it, is if you are happy as a kaffir, then be happy and go eat up life. it is just much too short for these made up stories with the intent to deceive others!

 

[Isambard]

for people who are taking this sort of debate seriousely, who are not sophomoric, bring me this from another text.. and let's compare

THE LOST CITY OF UBAR

THE PEOPLE OF 'AD AND UBAR, THE ATLANTIS OF THE SANDS





source]

Well finally got around to reading the article and the original interview that the article you presented draws from.

From what ive read, alot of the claims in your article are neither miraculous nor are they as concrete as it presents.

For one, if you look at when the city was lost after its water perished around 300-500CE. The legend of the ancient city was also wide-spread among both Arabs and europeans and the city is documented by Ptolemy.

Being such a staple of trade its hardly any surprise people would talk about it when it mysteriously disappeared.

I still dont undertsand why this discovery makes the Qur'an true or miraculous as the folks that discovered the city found a few other reasons for its decline aside fromt he natural disaster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Ad#The_Fall_of_.27Ad

Nor is there any proof that God personally destroyed it or that Hud ever visited there aside from the Qur'an.

I mean you have other lost cities/civilizations. Pompeii, Mayans, Former inhabitants of Easter Island, Rohenok (dont remember spelling >.<)

Typically these places give rise to all sorts of legends so this article proves nothing but that the folks on the article you cited jump to conclusions.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ubar/zarins/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubar#Rediscovery_of_Ubar.2FIram

 

[Isambard]

I still don't see your point, the fact that he plagiarized is common knowledge to anyone who picks up a book and reads it and makes a comparison. by the way I had answered you sufficiently but my two posts were removed! thus I still insist you show me where I have copied it word for word from wiki? If you are going to accuse little boy at least stand by your charges..

You acted as thou you read the book yet it was apperent it was simply a paraphrase of the article on Wiki. That damages your credibility
The rest is just a bunch of drivel.. if you bring a topic to the table it becomes incumbent upon you to prove your point.
I have, its just noone has read the material I put forth as equivolents so any arguement then would be one-sided
Point out the downfalls, the similarities, I expect that you have some dextrity of language of exegetical and critical interpretation, I expect that you meet the challenge on every level
1- political
2- economical
3- governmental
4-poetical
5-social
6- as well as infleunce including that which deals with every day life -- show me where another text has had that kind of profound and prophetical impact..

I focused on the political and poetical as well as try and delve into prophecy, but as I said, noone has read said works to its pointless to go further

This has nothing to do with what I have read or haven't read.. there is no way for you to judge that until you bring some actual beef to the table.
This isn't a contest of machismo and insults.. you can't handle a topic don't bring it up or decide the cowards insults are the best way out.

Actually it does. Argueing from a point of ignorance of the material presented doesnt make you correct. To avoid appearing close-minded, sometimes its best to admit you simply dont know and leave at that until you can properly educate yourself.
peace!

Now what sort of political and/or economic texts have you read and lets see if we can try this again on equal footing

 

[جوري]

Addendum 2: Iram

Additionally, the 89th chapter of the Qur'an (Surah al-Fajr 89:7) mentions a certain city by the name of 'Iram (a city of pillars), which was not known in ancient history and which was non-existent as far as historians were concerned. However, the December 1978 edition of National Geographic introduced interesting information which mentioned that in 1973, the city of Elba was excavated in Syria. The city was discovered to be 43 centuries old, but that is not the most amazing part. Researchers found in the library of Elba a record of all of the cities with which Elba had done business. Believe it or not, there on the list was the name of the city of 'Iram. The people of Elba had done business with the people of 'Iram!

In conclusion I ask you to consider with care the following (Surah 29:50-51):

"And they say, 'Why are not signs sent down to him from his Lord?' Say, 'Indeed, the signs are with Allah, and I am but a clear warner.' But it is sufficient for them that We have sent down to you the Book [i.e., Qur'an] which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in that is mercy and a reminder to people who believe."

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source
written by Dr. Gary Miller who dedicated 20 years of his life to the study of the Quran, a former missionary.. if you are going to quote a source.. please step up to the task and don't bring me cheesy articles from wikipedia for many reasons discussed here already up to and including

Wikipedia 'shows CIA page edits'

here is a source of from the BBC on the matter,http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6947532.stm
though it is a digression I believe it, is appropriate to set the bar on what sources we are going to use for a discussion!
The second source you used was one I had enclosed in my post ( what is that all about?). if you are not going to take this seriousely please don't waste my time. Further don't claim you have done your reading and compared if you are going to take time out to do a quick wiki search to be all uptodate. This is reserved for people who have spent a life time in pursuit, not some kid who has read cliff notes and uses wiki.
as for what is so amazing.. well I'll leave that to those more discerning members of the forum.

 

[جوري]

You acted as thou you read the book yet it was apperent it was simply a paraphrase of the article on Wiki. That damages your credibility

I don't quote wiki, anyone who has been on this forum a while already knows so about me-- further I have already stated, in the above text why wiki isn't a credible source at all. It is very deceitful of you to use the affirmative of copied word for word, then state paraphrased, then state acted like you've read it.. which is it?-- or are you a dynamo of a hyperbole?

I have, its just noone has read the material I put forth as equivolents so any arguement then would be one-sided

you haven't put equivalents. to put equivalents is to do more than attest that you have! therein lies the credibility.. anyone can list a bunch of books from their library, is there a point in doing so? You remind me of a chap from a couple of months ago who stated a match for the Quran has been found in Khalil Jibran yet failed to prove how?

I focused on the political and poetical as well as try and delve into prophecy, but as I said, noone has read said works to its pointless to go further

incorrect you ASSUMED no one has read the text. I had already made two replies to you, which got deleted by a mod, on the account the forum was meant to compare not refute. Which I accepted and bowed out gracefully.judging from the sources you used and the time you took to 'educate' yourself, I believe enough of a testament to who has done the reading. Perhaps if you had some measure of humility in your approach we wouldn't be highlighting your downfalls so publicly!

Actually it does. Argueing from a point of ignorance of the material presented doesnt make you correct. To avoid appearing close-minded, sometimes its best to admit you simply dont know and leave at that until you can properly educate yourself.

it will take so much more than peddling in rhetoric. Bring your material forth and let's see who is ignorant.. instead of taking a couple of days off to educate yourself of the Quran from wikipedia and not even do it properly enough as to see exactly how old the city is or which city from above listed we are even talking about to make a moot point, in the least use proper sources, so you can avoid publicly humiliating yourself whilst claiming you are so well read!!

I think everyone knows where this thread is headed.. yet another one has reached the end of its value!