Confused about trinity......need an answer

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Peace Be Upon You All

I hope this question is not repeated because I searched for it and did not find it.

I am a bit confused about the trinity concept. It is mainly three in one (Father, Spirit, Spirit) and all of them are considered as holy symbols in Christianity. I read that Christians cant spearate those three elements from each other.

I asked in one forum about who create the son and the spirit and I got an answer that it is the Father or God

My question is how can one part of trinity create the other?
Cant this be a sign for the weakness of those created parts?

Does this mean that the trinity parts are not equal in terms of power?


hope you got my question.

Peace
 
We have a body, mind and soul- 3 parts in one. Our body and mind often do not work towards one good end.

The Trinity always works in unison, unity towards the one good holy end. One part of the Trinity did not create another, they always existed but manifested to man when it was time to in GOD's plan.
 
Peace Be Upon You All

I hope this question is not repeated because I searched for it and did not find it.

I am a bit confused about the trinity concept. It is mainly three in one (Father, Spirit, Spirit) and all of them are considered as holy symbols in Christianity. I read that Christians cant spearate those three elements from each other.

I asked in one forum about who create the son and the spirit and I got an answer that it is the Father or God

My question is how can one part of trinity create the other?
Cant this be a sign for the weakness of those created parts?

Does this mean that the trinity parts are not equal in terms of power?


hope you got my question.

Peace

First, I would not speak of the three persons of the Trinity as "the three elements." Though I take no offense at it. It is just that one of the things that causes people to misunderstand it is that different people use different terminology that they think means the same thing when it really doesn't. Thus they are halfway down one path exploring what the Trinity means/is before they realize that the "trinity" they are exploring is NOT the one that Christians actually say we believe in. But even here I don't blame those who have trouble with "person", because what it means in today in our contemporary understanding of the term also is NOT what it meant when the phrase was coined in reference to the Trinity some 1700 years ago. So, if it can be confusing for those who have grown up with the language, surely it is even more so for those who have not.

Second, I would not speak of the persons of the Trinity as being "symbols" of Christianity. I'm not sure what the connotation you had behind that use of the term "symbols" was, but I usually think of a symbol as something that stands for or suggests something else. I don't think that the persons of the Trinity are meant to suggest something else but who they are. Though I would hesitate to say that even a perfect understanding of the Trinity (a manmade philosophical construct to explain the intrinsic nature of God) should fully articulate God who is beyond our human comprehension. So, if you meant to use the term "symbols" in this way, then I withdraw my objection.


Now as to your larger question, "How can one part of trinity create the other?":
I think the answer that you got previously -- where a person suggested that the Son and Holy Spirit are created by the Father -- is either misinformed or the individual was not careful in the way they worded their answer. Christians do NOT believe that any part of the Trinity was created by another part of it. This is because that all of the Trinity is indeed one and the same God and is co-eternal with one another.

Sometimes we use the words "generated" or "proceeds" to speak of the Father "generating" the Son or of the Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son, but in neither case do we mean to imply that there is an act of creation going on. We are not talking about a beginning, that the Son or the Spirit was at some point in time not present and then came into existence. (Jesus is not the Son because he is God's offspring for instance.) Just as Muslims would say that Allah is uncreated, so too would Christians affirm that about God -- meaning all of God be it the Father, the Son, or the Spirit.
 
After spending some years in the monastry the boy was asked by the father if he learnt the Trinity at the end.The boy said "Yes I've done, father!" Then the father replied "Get out of here!Even I haven't got it yet, how can you do!" :D

Excuse me, no offense.Peace.
 
We have a body, mind and soul- 3 parts in one. Our body and mind often do not work towards one good end.

The Trinity always works in unison, unity towards the one good holy end. One part of the Trinity did not create another, they always existed but manifested to man when it was time to in GOD's plan.


Yes, and Christians believe that we as human beings are made in the image and likeness of God, and just as we are triune beings are and are still one, so too is God. As it goes: God=the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body.
 
Yes, and Christians believe that we as human beings are made in the image and likeness of God, and just as we are triune beings are and are still one, so too is God. As it goes: God=the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body.

But Fedos, let us remember that we are not drawing a syllogism here. While God is one being in three persons, that in and of itself is not the reason that we find that people have these three constituent parts to their being.
 
Yes, and Christians believe that we as human beings are made in the image and likeness of God.
What do you think of this verse in the Quran?

"But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!" (Surah sajda 32:9)
 
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Peace!!

Wow i think im more confused now imsad

I think i would understand better if someone tells be where, specifically, in the Gospel does Jesus (PBUH) mention the Trinity?

Thanks for you time
 
First, I would not speak of the three persons of the Trinity as "the three elements." Though I take no offense at it. It is just that one of the things that causes people to misunderstand it is that different people use different terminology that they think means the same thing when it really doesn't. Thus they are halfway down one path exploring what the Trinity means/is before they realize that the "trinity" they are exploring is NOT the one that Christians actually say we believe in. But even here I don't blame those who have trouble with "person", because what it means in today in our contemporary understanding of the term also is NOT what it meant when the phrase was coined in reference to the Trinity some 1700 years ago. So, if it can be confusing for those who have grown up with the language, surely it is even more so for those who have not.

Second, I would not speak of the persons of the Trinity as being "symbols" of Christianity. I'm not sure what the connotation you had behind that use of the term "symbols" was, but I usually think of a symbol as something that stands for or suggests something else. I don't think that the persons of the Trinity are meant to suggest something else but who they are. Though I would hesitate to say that even a perfect understanding of the Trinity (a manmade philosophical construct to explain the intrinsic nature of God) should fully articulate God who is beyond our human comprehension. So, if you meant to use the term "symbols" in this way, then I withdraw my objection.

thanks for such explanation, Its hard to explain the trinity in words after all, that’s why I might use some confused words


Now as to your larger question, "How can one part of trinity create the other?":
I think the answer that you got previously -- where a person suggested that the Son and Holy Spirit are created by the Father -- is either misinformed or the individual was not careful in the way they worded their answer. Christians do NOT believe that any part of the Trinity was created by another part of it. This is because that all of the Trinity is indeed one and the same God and is co-eternal with one another.

Sometimes we use the words "generated" or "proceeds" to speak of the Father "generating" the Son or of the Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son, but in neither case do we mean to imply that there is an act of creation going on. We are not talking about a beginning, that the Son or the Spirit was at some point in time not present and then came into existence. (Jesus is not the Son because he is God's offspring for instance.) Just as Muslims would say that Allah is uncreated, so too would Christians affirm that about God -- meaning all of God be it the Father, the Son, or the Spirit.

If the generating is not a sign for an a creation as you said then even the generating mean that there is something happened before the other, or I may say that something was a cause or participate in creating something else even if it did not do the whole creation.
And the main question still remain here, one "part" *sorry, I can't explain it in any other word* is participate or generate the other parts of trinity?
Or I might ask the question differently to make it more clear. Are all the parts of trinity are equal in the power?
 
Peace!!

Wow i think im more confused now imsad

I think i would understand better if someone tells be where, specifically, in the Gospel does Jesus (PBUH) mention the Trinity?

Thanks for you time

Don't know if you are asking a serious question, or already know the answer to this and are just playing a game. But giving you the benefit of the doubt:


The Trinity is a belief held by Christians regarding the nature of God. It is based not on any single verse in the Christian scriptures, but is something inferred from the various paradoxes that exist between several of them. Since it is a theological construct of systematic theology rather than something directly declared in revelation, there is no verse (from either the Old Testament nor the New Testament) that explains it. Rather it tries to explain how it is that in one place the Bible says there is just one God and only one and in others it also declares that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God.
 
If the generating is not a sign for an a creation as you said then even the generating mean that there is something happened before the other, or I may say that something was a cause or participate in creating something else even if it did not do the whole creation.
And the main question still remain here, one "part" *sorry, I can't explain it in any other word* is participate or generate the other parts of trinity?
Or I might ask the question differently to make it more clear. Are all the parts of trinity are equal in the power?

Yes, the Father generates the Son. But the father has been always generating the Son, from before the beginning. This is important that you understand that this has always been, so that nothing is before or after anything else. You can't say that the Father is God and then created the Son. That would mean that not only was their a time when the Son did not exist, but that a time when the Father was not the Father. But we believe that we have just one God who has always been both Father and Son (and Holy Spirit). So that if there were ever a time when the Son was not, then it would follow that there was also a time when the Father was not as well. For how can the Father be a Father without the presence of the Son? So, there is no beginning to this relationship (and likewise the relationships with the Spirit), any more than there is a beginning to God. The Father and the Son and the Spirit (all three in the one God) have just always been.



Are all three equal in power? Well, yes in that they are all equally God and have exactly the same divine power. No, in that they each have different roles in their relationship with the world. While the Son and the Spirit proceed from the Father, it is by the power of the Word of God (i.e. the Son) that all that is created comes into being, and yet it is the Spirit that sustains all that is. Further, when God decided to incarnate himself into this world (a Christian belief that I know Muslims do not share) it was not the Father or Spirit who did so, but the Son. In so doing the Son limited himself in ways that one does not normally think of God being limited. God is not limited to time and space, but Jesus was. God is not dependent on othes, but Jesus was. God cannot sin, and while Jesus did not there was the genuine risk that he might have. For if he did not have free will to voluntarily submit his will to that of the Father and the Spirit (thus implying that he also could have refused to submit), then he was not truly human. But it is only in their relationship with us that they exercise different roles and we experience their power in different ways; in their relationship with one another within the Godhead I don't see any disparity spelled out in scripture. Beyond what scripture actually says (and there are some things that are not revealed to us) I will not speculate.

So my answer to your question about whether they are equal or not is both YES and NO (and even unknowable), depending on in what way you meant it.
 
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What do you think of this verse in the Quran?

"But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!" (Surah sajda 32:9)

That sounds similar to what is in Genesis:

'Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.' --Genesis 2:7
 
But Fedos, let us remember that we are not drawing a syllogism here. While God is one being in three persons, that in and of itself is not the reason that we find that people have these three constituent parts to their being.

I understand that that's not the only reason we have spirit, soul, and body. Animals have bodies and spirits, they just don't have souls. But from my understanding we are the only beings in the universe (I don't believe in aliens) who are made in the image of God. We are unique. I was just trying to elaborate on what Follower said.
 
so that nothing is before or after anything else

is that mean that the son was generated before it sent to the people?

btw, what is the exact nature of the holy spirit?

In so doing the Son limited himself in ways that one does not normally think of God being limited

sorry, but I think it does, how can a god be limited to something, this is what I meant by not equal in the power


So my answer to your question about whether they are equal or not is both YES and NO (and even unknowable), depending on in what way you meant it.

To be honest, that confuse me even more now, what do you mean by unknowable?




What do you think of this verse in the Quran?

"But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!" (Surah sajda 32:9)

That sounds similar to what is in Genesis:

'Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.' --Genesis 2:7

both two verses are talking about the same thing *if I am not mistaken*, right?
which is creating a man from a dust and breathed into him the life. That is mainly prove that it was a nothing transferred to be something.

and this is confuse me now with what Grace Seeker specified before
But the father has been always generating the Son, from before the beginning. This is important that you understand that this has always been,

how it can be that God has been always generating the son?
 
civilized - it says that page is not available. Deedat was very confused and wrong about what Christians believe. I would not go by his understanding. You have to learn about what a person believes from that person.

GOD's time is very different form ours.

2 Peter 3

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
 
saya - GOD is one, He always was. When the time came the "person/part" that needed to manifest to man did so as Jesus.

How would you label the concept of the Trinity? I think I have mentioned before that I like Triunity, Triune-GOD. One True GOD, but not limited by our understanding of the word one. Man was given the responsibility of naming all kinds of things in this world.

Why would Jesus say:

Matthew 28
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Why didn't Jesus say no don't worship me?

John 10
30I and the Father are one."

John 14
7If you really knew me, you would know[a] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?




Matthew 22
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
 
is that mean that the son was generated before it sent to the people?
Yes. The Son has been around for every bit as long as the Father has. Both of them have been around since before the begining. In other words, both the Father and the Son are eternal.

btw, what is the exact nature of the holy spirit?
To be honest, that confuse me even more now, what do you mean by unknowable?
The Holy Spirit is God. He is spirit. He does not have a corporeal body. He does not occupy space. He does not occupy time. He is immiment in people's lives. He moves in a through us, connecting us with God by virtue of being God present in our lives. He convicts us of sin, leads us into truth and reveals God to us. But that hardly covers all that can be said about the Holy Spirit. Indeed should I write a thousand-page post I would never cover all that could be said, and therefore never cover it exactly. The same could be said of the Father or the Son. And even then there would still be more that we simply don't know because it has not all been revealed to us, at least not yet. This is what I meant by saying that some is "unknowable".


sorry, but I think it does, how can a god be limited to something, this is what I meant by not equal in the power

Let me try an analogy. A few years ago when George Bush Sr. was President, it was known that he was a millionaire and had many investments. No doubt some of those investments would be impacted by the decisions he made as president. So as to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest, he had all of his investments put into a blind trust. In this way he would not have knowledge of what he owned, how they were doing, or what impact his policies might have on his investments while he was in office. He couldn't even write a check to buy his wife a birthday present from those funds. It was as if he didn't have that money. While he was in the office of president, he had so limited his access to the wealth that was indeed his, that he couldn't actuially live like a millionaire.

So, was Bush Sr. a millionaire or not while he was in office? Yes. But it didn't make any difference. He still had to earn a paycheck like the rest of us.

In much the same way, Philippains 2 tells us that the Son limited himself when he came to earth:
Philippians 2
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
According to this passage, as the Son, Jesus was by nature God. (This would be before his incarnation.) And then he took on the nature of a human being. Notice he didn't quit being God. Therefore, he retains his divine nature. But because he also took on the nature of a human being, either he is going to live as a divine human being (half man/half god) or he is going to live exactly as a human being (having limited his divine power) while living as a man on earth. So, he is no less God than before, just as Bush was no less of a millionaire than before, but neither Bush nor Jesus could claim access to that we was truly theirs for as long as they were in the position which they entered into as president (Bush) or servant human being (Jesus). The fancy theological term used to describe this is kenosis -- which is the Greek word translated in verse 7 ("made himself nothing", literally "he emptied himself") -- meaning emptying. This is why I say that he limited himself, because he did not claim any of those divine powers while on earth, even though he was still just as much God as ever.

Ironically, I find that more Christians get confused by this next concept than Muslims do. The question then becomes, if he had limited his divine power so that he functioned just as all other humans do, then how did he do all of the miracles that he did? Wouldn't he have had to have been God to do that? And I say, that he did them by the power of God, the Holy Spirit, that was present in his life, just as that same Holy Spirit, and thus the power of God, is available to any other human being today. It was because, unlike us, Jesus lived a truly submitted life to the Father, that the Father was able to do things in and through him that we never do. If God willed them for us, and we were as submitted as Jesus, then we would see them in our lives just the same. And in fact, if you take a look at the disciples, we do in fact see them doing many, in some cases more, of these very sorts of miracles themselves.

But anyway, I hope you can see how Jesus who was God before he was incarnated, doesn't become less God simply by that act of putting on flesh, but he does voluntarily limit himself (empty himself) of those powers which we humans tend to associate with God like omniscence and omnipresence. But because he is God, he is never less holy, never less divine; his essential character remains the same. But like people, he will now get hungry, tired, and feel sorrow.




how it can be that God has been always generating the son?
I didn't say that God has always been generating the Son. I said the Father has always been generating the Son. God has always been Father and Son and Holy Spirit all three at the same time. If we were to assume a point in time in which the Son never existed, then without the Son, there can be no Father. And since the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son, then there can also be no Holy Spirit. And if there is no Son, no Father, and no Holy Spirit, then in fact there is no God.

My guess is that this is still confusing, so let me go back to the bit about if there is no Son, then there is no Father.

I don't know whether or not you have children Saya, but I do no you are a child. Perhaps like me you are the oldest in your family. Now, while my father existed before I was born. He was not yet a father until I was born. His fatherhood was entirely dependent on generating me as his son. Without me as his son, he was not a Father. Now, some people like to conceive of God in just this way, existing in heaven by himself and then having a Son. But those who think this way are not thinking in accordance with what Christianity understands the Bible to actually teach. We understand that the Bible sees God has having always been the eternal Father. That Fatherhood is one of the basic natures of who and what God is. Thus, if he has always been the Father, then there also must have always been the Son.

When we speak of God sometimes we do speak only of the Father or only of the Son or only of the Spirit. But just because we sometimes focus on God's Fatherhood, or his Sonship, or that he is Spirit doesn't mean that these other aspects of who God isn't don't exist at the same time. The one and only God who created the universe, who called Abraham into covenant with himself, who called for Moses to lead his people, who sent Jesus into the world, and who spoke to Muhammad has never changed in who he is. But when we look more closely at his divine being, we find that while it in essence he is one, that there do exist these three persona by which he has made himself known, and none of them is any less God than another.


BTW, Ahamad Deedat, got it wrong when he said in that video that the Catechism says that the three persons are just one person. No Christian catechism actually says that. We say that there are three persons, but just one being. And we don't use person to refer to the concept of individuals either, the Greeks who coined that phrase didn't mean by it what is generally meant by the venacular of the word in contemporary English usage. When they spoke of persons, what they meant was something more akin to personas than to individuals. So, don't depend on him to get your understanding of the Trinity. He doesn't really talk about the Trinity that Christians believe in, but has created his own version of it -- one that Christians don't believe in any more than he does.
 

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