Confused about trinity......need an answer

[Danah]

Thanks for all your explanation, it gave me a lot to think about, and I made many comments to many parts of your replies. hope you will bear with me ^_^

First lets come to Follower Comment

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me

can I ask by whom the power given to Prophet Jesus?

"Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

is the lord here meant to be Jesus?

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

but how can they see the father on him when he is in the human nature/



Then Grace_Seeker

The Holy Spirit is God. He is spirit. He does not have a corporeal body. He does not occupy space. He does not occupy time. He is immiment in people's lives

I thought that the spirit is something you feel inside in your hearts and minds, but your answer made me confused a little bit
if the God is the spirit then why you consider them as two things....sorry I know I am not supposed to say it as "two" but I am trying to put my thoughts in words. What I meant is why you mentioned God and Spirit separately like saying that you have God, Son, and Spirit?
I can understand what is the difference between the son and the God, but I want to know what is the difference between the God and the spirit? arent they the same thing? why you mention them separately?

He convicts us of sin, leads us into truth and reveals God to us

are you talking here about the same thing? how can God reveals God to you?......this is what I meant by if they are one thing or not

Philippians 2
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

I noticed the bold part part sentences
can this be as we considered the son being powerful one day then that power took from him to be in the nature of human?

he didn't quit being God. Therefore, he retains his divine nature

you mean after crucified him?

but he does voluntarily limit himself (empty himself) of those powers

so if its done voluntarily, then is it him who did it? or the father?

But just because we sometimes focus on God's Fatherhood, or his Sonship, or that he is Spirit doesn't mean that these other aspects of who God isn't don't exist at the same time

thanks for this comment, its exactly what I am trying to say. Its because I see the Christians don't deal with trinity as one thing. many times they focus only on Jesus or seeking only the protection of the holy spirit......so they are dealing with the trinity as three things not one only

 

[malayloveislam]

Peace be upon everyone,

Can anyone enlight us with the history of Trinity doctrine being set up as Christian prime doctrine? Is it only have something to do with Roman Catholicism? But I also had seen that Orthodox Christianity in Greece and Egypt too have this doctrine. In Greece mother Mary had been revered, apart of Holy Spirit.

I have also heard about Calcedonism, Monophysitism and Nestorianism. How many sects actually happened to arise in Christianity around 4th C and how are their views concerning the divinity of prophet Jesus (pbuh)? What is the first base sect of Roman Catholicism and other protestant Churches today? I also find their views sometimes confusing, because there are too many views. I only know that valid view about prophet Jesus divinity by Christians is that he is their Lord and he is the focus of Christians prayers. Forgive me my ignorance.

 

[Keltoi]

Peace be upon everyone,

Can anyone enlight us with the history of Trinity doctrine being set up as Christian prime doctrine? Is it only have something to do with Roman Catholicism? But I also had seen that Orthodox Christianity in Greece and Egypt too have this doctrine. In Greece mother Mary had been revered, apart of Holy Spirit.

I have also heard about Calcedonism, Monophysitism and Nestorianism. How many sects actually happened to arise in Christianity around 4th C and how are their views concerning the divinity of prophet Jesus (pbuh)? What is the first base sect of Roman Catholicism and other protestant Churches today? I also find their views sometimes confusing, because there are too many views. I only know that valid view about prophet Jesus divinity by Christians is that he is their Lord and he is the focus of Christians prayers. Forgive me my ignorance.

Christianity spread quickly to many different areas of the middle east and north Africa and eventually to the Roman Empire. There were so many new churches that sprung up all over the place without any true central authority to cement fundamental doctrine in place. The fundamental doctrine has and always was the salvation offered through Jesus Christ. The Trinity doctrine was established to recognize what Scripture makes clear, which is that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God. A literate Christian wouldn't need Paul or anyone else to formulate what was already apparent from reading the books of the New Testament.

What wasn't as clearly spelled out in the New Testament was the complicated question about the nature of Christ's divinity. Some Christian groups adopted explanations about Christ's divinity that were not accepted by the majority of Christian leaders. An example would be Arianism.

As for the difference between Roman Catholicism and Greek Orthodox, that split was and primarily still is one of political history, not theology. When the Roman Empire split apart into East and West a schism was formed. The East propped up its own Pope and the West did the same.

The Protestant Reform movement occurred as a result of percieved corruption within the Roman Catholic Church. There are theological differences between Protestants and Catholics, but not about the nature of Christ. The dispute was over the monopoly the Catholic Church claimed to have over the religious lives of European Christians. Increased rates of literacy in Europe led many to read the Bible for themselves and realize that their salvation was not dependant upon the Catholic Church but upon Christ alone.

That was a nutshell reply to your question, hope it was at least a little helpful.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Grace_Seeker
thanks for this comment, its exactly what I am trying to say. Its because I see the Christians don't deal with trinity as one thing. many times they focus only on Jesus or seeking only the protection of the holy spirit......so they are dealing with the trinity as three things not one only

Yes. I fear we Christians are not always as careful as we should be in the way we speak. I don't know if you experience this in Islam or not, but there are the common, more generalized ways of speaking, and then there are more precise ways of speaking. When talking amongst each other, Christians speak of God and Jesus as if they were independent beings, when what we really mean is Father and Son as independent persons (not separate beings), but we should still be speaking of them both as being God who has made himself known to us as the Father and as the Son (and as the Holy Spirit). Then a person comes along who wants to talk theologically and adopts the imprecise ways that we sometimes speak to talk about things where it is important to use more precise language and confusion results. And that really isn't your fault, but ours for being so sloppy in our language at times.



I'm hoping what your realized above helps to clarify some of these other things you mentioned:

I thought that the spirit is something you feel inside in your hearts and minds, but your answer made me confused a little bit
if the God is the spirit then why you consider them as two things....sorry I know I am not supposed to say it as "two" but I am trying to put my thoughts in words. What I meant is why you mentioned God and Spirit separately like saying that you have God, Son, and Spirit?
I can understand what is the difference between the son and the God, but I want to know what is the difference between the God and the spirit? arent they the same thing? why you mention them separately?

There is no difference between the son and the God -- in fact the son is God, the Spirit is God, the Father God, but only when speaking of them as one and not three should we refer to them as THE God. I could have written the statement exactly the same way when referring to the Spirit. But there are distinctions between the Father, the Son and the Spirit. Patrick was able to use a shamrock when he went to Ireland to explain this concept to the Celts. He would pick a shamrock and point out the three leaflets. Now each leaflet was a seperate and distinct leaflet, and you could speak of them individually. Sometimes people mistakenly speak of the three parts as if they were themselves leaves, but they aren't. It is only as a whole that we actually have the leaf of a shamrock. So too we can see God as the Father who sends the Son and the Holy Spirit, and God is the Son who offers his life for the sins of the world to redeem us, and who is an advocate on our behalf with the Father, and God is the Spirit who gifts us with his presence in our lives and with abilities to be used as his instruments to accomplish God's purposes in the world. But though they are one God, they are still distinct persons, thus, for instance, Jesus is not the Father, but the Son of the Father, and by that reasoning we speak of Jesus as both God (i.e., God the Son) and the Son of God (i.e., God the Father). Which no doubt causes the confusion to resurface among those who have not grown accustomed to those ways of talking.

Originally by Grace Seeker:
He [the Holy Spirit] convicts us of sin, leads us into truth and reveals God to us

are you talking here about the same thing? how can God reveals God to you?......this is what I meant by if they are one thing or not

Yes, I am talking about the same thing. I could simply say that God convicts us of sin, leads us into truth and reveals himself to us. But I specified the Holy Spirit, because this aspect of how God relates to us is something that we see done more (but not exclusively) as a work of the person of the Holy Spirit than we do of either the Son or the Father. But it is also true that the Son reveals God to us. For instance in in John 1:18 we are told that "No one has ever seen God, but God the Only Begotten [please don't think biology], who is at the Father's side, has made him known." Note that this passage is referring to the Word who is God (John 1:1) and that became flesh (i.e. Jesus, John 1:14), as "God the Only Begotten". So, this passage is calling Jesus God, and then immediately after writting this the gospel writer has John the Baptist introduce Jesus to the world as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." So, even in their distictivenesses, there is a lot of things folding back in on themselves.

We talk about Son providing redemption and salvation, but this is his primary work, but he is also involved in providing truth that leads us to God. And the Father and the Spirit (though not primarily) participate in the work of salvation alongside the Son. But it is all the work of just the one God.

As Muslims you speak of the God's 99 names which refer to his many different attributes. As Christians we speak of the work of God more than his attributes (though they are important to us as well). And just as the Jews before us personified God's Wisdom, God's Word, and God's Spirit; the followers of Jesus (btw, all Jews) in experiencing the presence of God in the person of their friend Jesus and having that confirmed through God's Spirit moving among them just as they had read of it being mentioned in the prophets (compare Joel 2:28-32 with Acts 2), they began to think of God in this new way as more than just possessing a number of attributes, but actually having these personas to himself. And thus it was that the Christians of the New Testament era began to talk about all three persons (Jesus, the Father, and the Spirit) as God, but they also knew that even as they did so, that they were still talking about just one God, the very same God that they had always worshipped. For them, because it was part of their common shared experience, they never needed to question it or articulate it more than they did. But in time, as the church grew older and new people joined it, they would ask some of the very same (and very good) questions that you are asking. And it was then, in response to those questions, that the theologians of the church in trying to articulate answers to these questions developed what today we know as the doctrine of the Trinity to explain what we read in scripture about the nature of God who we know in theese three persons.

I noticed the bold part part sentences

Philippians 2
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

can this be as we considered the son being powerful one day then that power took from him to be in the nature of human?

No, because the power was not taken from him. It is something that he himself gave up voluntarily.

so if its done voluntarily, then is it him who did it? or the father?

I think I just answered that.

originally byGrace Seeker:
he didn't quit being God. Therefore, he retains his divine nature

you mean after crucified him?

Not just then. He was God when he was in heaven before he came to earth. He was God when still en utero. He was God when born. He was God when walking around. He was God when hanging, even as he died, on the Cross. And before you (or more likely another) comes back with all of the verses that some like to cite about Jesus not knowing something or crying out about God abandoning him, I am completely aware of all of those verses and still affirm that Jesus retained his divine nature through all of that. An essential part of understanding the incarnation is to understand that YES, we proclaim that God entered into and experienced all of these things as a person fully emeshed in corruptible humanity and yet was nonetheless God in the midst of all of this. And, YES, he is also still God after the crucifiction when he entered the realm of the dead, when he was raised to new life, ascended on high, as he reigns today in heaven, and when he returns in glory on the last day.

 

[Aqeel Ahmed]

This answer could be best given by a Christian but in my perspective , the Christian religion has no pillar to support it's main topic. They gave only one thing who is prophet Isa(AS) who is also mentioned in the Quran.

 

[Keltoi]

This answer could be best given by a Christian but in my perspective , the Christian religion has no pillar to support it's main topic. They gave only one thing who is prophet Isa(AS) who is also mentioned in the Quran.

No pillar to support its main topic? Not sure that makes sense. Our pillar is Jesus Christ. Our main topic is Jesus Christ.

 

[Imam]

Peace Be Upon You All



It is mainly three in one (Father, Spirit, Spirit) and all of them are considered as holy symbols in Christianity. I read that Christians cant spearate those three elements from each other.


Peace

Sis Saya

such question had been discussed before,so let me quote myself


Grace Seeker argues as all christians

We say that there are three persons, but just one being

in which I told him before:

If you keep using these terms, so you are obligated to provide definitions of "being" and "person" and a distinction between the two. Without a doubletalk, what are the differences? in fact, there are no differences

"Being" and "person" have no distinction and are merely elements of a ruse employed by christians. Because they can come up with two different words, they, therefore, claim they have two different entities.

If Jesus is God and the Father is God, then how can God be a being. It must be a quality such as Godhood or Godhead. But it is not a separate being per se.
Christians call this three persons within one being but fail to admit that one of the beings is separate from the other three beings. Thus, there are not 3 persons within one being but 3 separate beings distinct from a fourth being which has a separate and distinct identity. On the other hand, whenever expediency dictates, Christians dissolve the beingness or personhood of God and turn him into nothing more than a general term, a rubric, into which the other 3 beings are absorbed, much like the words "mankind" or "dogkind" and use words like "Godhead" or "Godhood." Your argument is as,that Robert is a separate and distinct human; John is a separate and distinct human; therefore, "human" is a separate and distinct being..

Philippians 2
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
According to this passage, as the Son, Jesus was by nature God. (This would be before his incarnation.) And then he took on the nature of a human being. Notice he didn't quit being God. Therefore, he retains his divine nature. But because he also took on the nature of a human being, either he is going to live as a divine human being (half man/half god) or he is going to live exactly as a human being (having limited his divine power) while living as a man on earth. So, he is no less God than before, just as Bush was no less of a millionaire than before, but neither Bush nor Jesus could claim access to that we was truly theirs for as long as they were in the position which they entered into as president (Bush) or servant human being (Jesus). The fancy theological term used to describe this is kenosis -- which is the Greek word translated in verse 7 ("made himself nothing", literally "he emptied himself") -- meaning emptying. This is why I say that he limited himself, because he did not claim any of those divine powers while on earth, even though he was still just as much God as ever.

the same he argued before in which I said:

what did Jesus,according to that passage , in his human (incarnate) state, empty himself?

We have only two choices:

1- that at the time of the Incarnation, God emptied himself of his divine attributes so that he could become a man. And in becoming a man in the very real sense, And so there is the transformation from deity to humanity because he set aside his omniscience, his omnipotence, and all of those other attributes that are proper to the nature of God.If God laid aside one of his attributes, the immutable undergoes a mutation; the infinite suddenly stops being infinite; it would be the end of the universe. God cannot stop being God and still be God.
.

2-or his transformation from deity to humanity never set aside his omniscience, his omnipotence, and all of those other attributes that are proper to the nature of God.His human nature was fully human, and his divine nature always and everywhere was fully divine.(fully man and fully God).

If so then

How could you have a being who is perfect and not perfect simultaneously?

Luke 18:19, Jesus responded: "Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is God..

How could a being be both ignorant of some facts and omniscient?

Jesus said"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt. 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations.


How could a being of one substance forsake itself?

Jesus cried out while on the cross"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" and died(Matt. 27:46).

Plainly put it,If Jesus lacks a quality possessed by God or vice versa,be it ever so minute, then he isn't God.or as you wish to call him(fully man and fully God).

If The Son was mere a human without divine attributes then he obviously lacks qualities possessed by God,and If a being whatever you wish to call(God the son-Moses-seeker etc...) lacks a a quality possessed by God,,be it ever so minute, then he isn't God.

seeker,if you will consult a basic logic book you will learn the simplicity of your error.

If God the Father still retained all of his omniscience.

then, it logically follows that Jesus still retained all of his omniscience,otherwise he doesn't deserve the title of God...If Jesus is God and the Father is God, then, it logically follows that Jesus is identical to the Father. You say, "The Father is not the Son." Oh, yes he is! Under your line of reasoning, he has to be.Here, again, your muddle is exposed. If two things are the same in material , then they are identical. If they differ in any respect, whatever, then they are neither the same nor identical.

If God the father empitied God the Son of the divine attributes , then, it logically follows that he was only fully human..
How do you expect from a being to be emptied by another being from the divine attributes ,still to be called Divine or share him the same nature?!!!

Unless you are able to repeal the law of contradiction, Seeker, you are entangled in a hopeless quest for a phantasy.

Only Christ was present as part of the Godhead before the world began.

in what form he was present as part of the Godhead?
Don't say in human form,as you know the so called incarnation happened
on earth,not in heaven...
so ,he has to be in spiritual form God's own spirit
If he was God's own spirit(they both still one spiritual material) then The father glorified the father,cause the son hasn't appeared at the scene yet...

If we apply the Christian argument to logic then:

-The father is God(has a divine nature).
-Jesus is God (has a divine nature).

-The father never set aside his divine attributes, his omnisciences.
-Jesus set aside his divine attributes, his omnisciences.

-It logically follows
that we have two Gods ,one never stopped for a moment to exercise his power ,another God does not exercise his power for a period of
time.


If Jesus was the same nature (divine) as God then you can't have it both ways,they have to stuck to their omnisciences,or to leave it all together...

If one say,

God did practice his power the whole last April,without a moment for a pause.

Jesus did practice his power the whole last April except 5 days.

then Jesus still God

that is according to the Christian logic !!!.......

No concept human ever invented , more self-contradictory than the Trinity...

Peace for all

 

[Follower]

LOL! imama - The concept of the Trinity is in the Gospel. It is all through the Gospel!!

Is the Trinity named in the Gospel? no. Just because it is not named does not mean it does not exit.

Muslims do not have the true personal name of GOD- YWHW mentioned in the Quran only the impersonal Allah the GOD- so does GOD exist in Islam?

 

[Follower]

oops that was supposed to be imam- I was not trying to be disrespectful!!

Sorry imam

 

[Imam]

LOL! imama - The concept of the Trinity is in the Gospel. It is all through the Gospel!!

Is the Trinity named in the Gospel?

Follower
as you new to the forum,you don't know yet my approach to the bible and so called sacred books in general

I don't believe in the trinity not only for being foolish,self-contradictory concept that should only be taken with pure faith ,but also and more important , the source from which Christians try to derive such concept(the NT) is proved to be unqualified,untrustworthy

and just as christian fundamentalist Gleason Archer wrote:

(if the biblical record can be proved fallible in areas of fact that can be verified, then it is hardly to be trusted in areas where it cannot be tested. As a witness for God, the Bible would be discredited as untrustworthy. What solid truth it may contain would be left as a matter of mere conjecture, subject to the intuition or canons of likelihood of each individual. An attitude of sentimental attachment to traditional religion may incline one person to accept nearly all the substantive teachings of Scripture as probably true. But someone else with equal justification may pick and chose whatever teachings in the Bible happen to appeal to him and lay equal claim to legitimacy. One opinion is as good as another. All things are possible, but nothing is certain if indeed the Bible contains mistakes or errors of any kind )


If the bible writers can't be trust in the easy to be verified claims:

resurrection (through verifying their accounts)
prophecies (through verifying their fulfillments)



so how can one trust them in the areas where their claims cannot be tested:

trinity
salvation

etc....


I'm not such kind of Muslim who busy his mind with the question:

Is the trinity in the bible?

I busy my mind with more crucial question:

Is the bible truly inspired from God?


If the Bible proved errant ,then who bother himself with what it says !!!!

Christianity with its basic concepts Trinity,salvation ...stands or fall on its scripture...

my posts deal basically with the proofs that the bible fell short the test of inspiration.......

oops that was supposed to be imam

Imama is a nice nick too.....

not all words end with (a) makes you think it to be female lol


Imam and Imama in Arabic

is like scholar and scholarship in English

 

[Zamtsa]

Yahweh means "Who exist by Himself, who created whatever exist."

So, like Jehova witness who said that Jesus is not Allah but god or God too. They said that Allah has the ability that Jesus and the Holy Ghost (Jibril) don't have.

Allah came from the word Al and Ilah, means the only God.

So, this is His name. When we say that Allah is the only God, then Yahweh is only 1 of Allah's characteristics according to the meaning of Yahweh AS ABOVE.

The Jews hated Jibril, so the christians differ themselves from the Jews by doing the opposite extreme which was by making him as 1 of the God.
Jibril the Ruhul Qudus is a Malaikat (angel) not God. Jibril 'Alaihi Salaam is very close to Allahu Ta'ala according to Rasulullah so that whenever He loves someone, He will tell Jibril 'Alaihi Salaam.

So no Trinity in Allahu Ta'ala but His Rububiyyah, Uluhiyah and Asma' wa Shifat.

Allah has more than 99 names, so He has more than 99 personalities but He is 1 being (Dzat) and He could be in these more than 99 personalities at once at one time and one place.



Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh.

 

[Follower]

The Holy Ghost/Spirit is not Gibraiel.

Why does the Quran use the term for Gabriel when he is the angel messanger? Why confuse the issue? The Holy Spirit which some, as in the Jehovah Witnessws say isn't another personality of GOD?

"my posts deal basically with the proofs that the bible fell short the test of inspiration..."

Using that arguement makes the Quran a lie though!?!? All that is in the Old Testament leads up to the Gospel. The very Gospel that the Quran validates!

LOL!! If you have trouble understanding the Quran you are to seek out those who have studied they Bible?

What?

010.094
YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
PICKTHAL: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
SHAKIR: But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

Of all the miracles in the world the greatest is the Holy Bible itself.

The prophecies fulfilled.

Paul's conversion a cool miracle- a person that was presecuting the Christians becomes a teacher of Christianity!!

 

[Grace Seeker]

how can God be a being?

God exists, i.e. God is or God be's. All that is alive be's and are beings. Most beings are created beings, creatures created by God. But since God has always existed and always will, his name even meaning "I will be who I will be," then God is not a creature but an eternal being. And there is only one being who can be eternal, uncreated and existing not only before all other beings came into existence, but even outside of time itself. This Being that exists, the one who simply IS who he is -- immutable -- is God. There is none like him.

The term person is different from the term being in that personhood is an expression of only some beings. Those that have personalities, that possess a degree of sense of self and can project that self toward others. (I.e., starfish are not persons, once upon a time I would not have said that monkey and apes possessed personhood, but as I learn more about them, I may have to change my mind regarding them.) Certainly this is true of God, that he possesses personhood, and it is also true of his human creatures. The difference between God's human creatures and God of course has to do with the finite nature of his human creatures. They are confined to time and space, where he is not. They are 3-dimensional, where he does not exist within dimensions at all, but transcends them. Thus, there are some limitations on the concept of personhood with regard to the creature, that are not true with regard to the creator. Among them is that for the creature, persons are individual discreet beings and that each unique are unto themselves. Because they occupy a certain unique set of space at a particular unique time, they are each unique individuals. But as God exists outside of time and space, then he does not occupy it in the same way that his creatures do. Hence, we should not superimpose our limited experience of what it means to be a persons onto him. And indeed, we find in the scriptures that it speaks of three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit each as God, but this same scripture also affirms that there is just one God. While the doctrine of the Trinity was an attempt by some to explain that reality, it matters not if we are capable of explaining it or it remains a mystery understood by God alone. We do know that this is what the scriptures reveal to us regarding the nature of God, and thus we accept it as true, whether or not we or anyone else can understand how it is. We nonetheless know that it in fact simply is what it is, and it is true.

Now, if you don't accept the scriptures as true, then you are certainly free to question all of this at length, and decide for yourself what is and isn't true by any logic you so desire to use. But I don't have that option, as I accept that the nature of God revealed to us in scripture is of the God that is, aand whether or not I am able to fully understand him with my limited human mind is actually irrelevant to who he is.

in what form he [the Son] was present as part of the Godhead?
Don't say in human form,as you know the so called incarnation happened
on earth,not in heaven...
so ,he has to be in spiritual form God's own spirit
If he was God's own spirit(they both still one spiritual material) then The father glorified the father,cause the son hasn't appeared at the scene yet...

Indeed, prior to his incarnation, the Son was in present in spiritual form. I have always asserted exactly this. But I will not say spiritual material, for that mistakenly begins to think of something that is concrete in nature and occupies a given space at a given time. And can you see the how this leads you to think in terms of "before" and "after" with regard to saying that the Son hasn't appeared yet. Again, as I have already discussed with Saya, there is never a time when the Son was not in existence. That he has not appeared in the flesh yet, does not mean that he doesn't exist. That is the whole point of the Trinity, God has always been three persons. He didn't just become three persons at the time of Jesus. Since from before the beginning, as a very part of who God himself is, at the core of his being, God is three persons. Yet, as you have said: "(they both still one spiritual material)", he is still just one.

Athanasius, who is the major name in dispute with Arianism, surmised that when Jesus said "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30), it means that the Father and Son are of one substance as it is is a matter of identity of substance (your "spiritual material") not numerical unity. By extension, Son and Spirit are of the same substance with the Father. Thus, we can speak of God's one "substance" (what I generally call one being) and three distinct yet undivided "persons". Tertullian, who coined the term "Trinity", by which he meant "one substance in three persons" put it this way:

Father, Son, and Spirit are "three" not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as he is one God.

Tertullian was also the first to apply the term persona in referring to God. For Tertullian, while substance stood for the common fundamental reality shared by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, he understood person as the principle of distinct operative character.

And as the word "person" seems to be still causing confusion, let me just quote from another author on it:

Much has been written about the history of the term persona and its application to Trinitarian language. The contours of the term are both obscure and wide. In its original sense it has the meaning of "mask" as worn by an actor in a play [think Greek theater], thus denoting something that is not "real" for the human being behind the mask. The other extreme, the modern one, is to regard the persona as not only something "real" abot the human beingbut also highly individualistic. Tertullian probably meant something like concrete individual. Understandably, neither the etymology of the term nor its highly individualized modern meaning captures the principles of distinction-in-unity meant by those who first applied it to the Christian God.

Veli-Matti Karkkainen, The Trinity: Global Perspectives​

 

[Zamtsa]

Yahweh means "Who exist by Himself, who created whatever exist."

So, like Jehova witness who said that Jesus is not Allah but god or God too. They said that Allah has the ability that Jesus and the Holy Ghost (Jibril) don't have.

Allah came from the word Al and Ilah, means the only God.

So, this is His name. When we say that Allah is the only God, then Yahweh is only 1 of Allah's characteristics according to the meaning of Yahweh AS ABOVE.

The Jews hated Jibril, so the christians differ themselves from the Jews by doing the opposite extreme which was by making him as 1 of the God.
Jibril the RUHUL QUDUS is a Malaikat (angel) not God. Jibril 'Alaihi Salaam is very close to Allahu Ta'ala according to Rasulullah so that whenever He loves someone, He will tell Jibril 'Alaihi Salaam.

So no Trinity in Allahu Ta'ala but His Rububiyyah, Uluhiyah and Asma' wa Shifat.

Allah has more than 99 names, so He has more than 99 personalities but He is 1 being (Dzat) and He could be in these more than 99 personalities at once at one time and one place.



Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh.

Look the one being capitalised there, translate that into English, what will be your translation? Holy spirit or not? It was named that way from Jibril 'Alaihi Salam the Ruhul (spirit) Qudus (holy, not Quddus).

 

[malayloveislam]

Err, sorry, what exactly is Holy Spirit in Christianity?? I had read about his function in Christianity through Scripture studies but I am not quite sure about what is Holy Spirit according to Christians understanding.

In Islam we only know Archangel Gabriel as Holy Spirit, it is translated from Quranic Arabic, Ruhul Qudus. This is his title. He is not God for us and he is not apart of God, he is an angel and the emissary of Allah to His prophets and messengers. Means that he is the creature created by God. Angels were created from light, Genies including Devil and demons are from smokeless fire, and Adam from earth elements.

Archangel Gabriel brought revelations to the prophets and messengers and teaching them about religion matters including the act of worship.

In Surah Maryam, Archangel Gabriel is the one who had annunciate to mother Maryam about the nativity of prophet Jesus (pbuh). He takes the form of a young man not in his real form through the permission of Allah.

 

[Imam]

Grace Seeker, you are at it again!


though you affirmed

it matters not if we are capable of explaining it or it remains a mystery understood by God alone.

still you want to have another run and making sense to the illogical mystery

Indeed, prior to his incarnation, the Son was in present in spiritual form. I will not say spiritual material, for that mistakenly begins to think of something that is concrete in nature and occupies a given space at a given time. :

I never think of spirit as something concrete,occupies a given space at a given time.

this leads you to think in terms of "before" and "after" with regard to saying that the Son hasn't appeared yet.:

before and after I meant ,obviously ,(before and after the so called incarnation)

there is never a time when the Son was not in existence. That he has not appeared in the flesh yet, does not mean that he doesn't exist. That is the whole point of the Trinity,

and that is one of the basic refutations to the trinity!

First:

If we agree that God's spirit is nothing concrete in nature and never occupies a given space at a given time, that means not only there is never a time when the son (Jesus as in his spiritual form) was not in existence ,but also
there is never a time when all human mankind (as in spirits) were not in existence.
you see now, under your line of reasoning ,how many could fairly join the Godhead?


Second:

you claim

Indeed, prior to his incarnation, the Son was in present in spiritual form.

If we rewrite your sentence ,we would realize the problem ,those who try to explain the trinity,can't resolve..


let's rewrire it:

Indeed, prior to his incarnation, the Father was in present in spiritual form.

If the father is God as in John 20:17 :"Jesus saith unto her, ...I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your

And God appeared in the flesh (incarnated)

then the father was incarnated.....


let's rewrite it again :

Indeed, prior to his incarnation, Imam was in present in spiritual form.

If Imam was (just as all humans) present in spiritual form and Christians claim that the spirit if go through the flesh considered an act of incarnation

then Imam was incarnated !

God has always been three persons. He didn't just become three persons at the time of Jesus. Since from before the beginning,

I guess you mean God has always been three spiritual persons before the incarnation

well,under your line of reasoning
one could fairly claim

God has always been countless spiritual persons before their incarnations (God breathed his spirit in their mothers' wombs)



in sum

If one claims that :

the Father has timeless,limitless,indivisible spiritual form .

and

The son(before,during,after incarnation)has timeless,limitless,indivisible spiritual form .

then logically the son has to be the father and vice versa..... and the phrases


God incarnated

the father incarnated

the son incarnated

would surely mean the exact same thing


And if one would argue that God the father emptied God the Son of the divine attributes , then, it logically follows that he was only fully human..


If one ignore all such logical facts,and insist that He was fully human and fully God then one should answer some logical questions:

How could you have a being who is perfect and not perfect simultaneously?

Luke 18:19, Jesus responded: "Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is God..

How could a being be both ignorant of some facts and omniscient?

Jesus said"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt. 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations.

etc........


submitting logic to trinity is an impossible dream....

the best Christians could do to talk about the trinity is to search for it in the Bible ,if so they would find non-inspired work,and self-contradictory concept.

But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

LOL!! If you have trouble understanding the Quran you are to seek out those who have studied they Bible?

and I would say:

If you ,follower ,have trouble understanding the Quran you are to seek out those who have studied they Quran.


According to your understanding of the verse , God advised , if one doesn't understand a verse like (they killed him nor crucified him )to go to Christians to explain for him how jesus was crucified !

and if one doesn't understand that in the Quran that all the prophets were examples of moral and spiritual rectitude ,one should go asking the Jews
and they will explain such Quranic fact by their biblical stories of prophet Lot's incestuous relationship with his daughters ,David's adultery,Solomon etc......

Does that make sense?! no it doesn't

in order to understand the verse you should consider:

1- the conditional If in the verse.


2-what kind of things he might ask....

As logically,It is not possible he would ask about things they hide,deny or dont exist in their books...
and that is affirmed by the context of the chapter
one look at the theme of the chapter (Yunus) ,it is the Quran alludes to the fact that those nations who denied their messengers after having been convinced of their messenger ship were destroyed by the Almighty. A little contemplation on verses 71-93 shows that those verses provide evidence from history how this principle applied to different nations. As a result, verses 71-73 narrate the story of Noah (pbuh) and his nation who was drowned in the great flood. Verses 75-93 narrate incidents from the history of Bani Israel (Jews) of prophet Moses (pbuh) and prophet Aaron (pbuh) and how Pharoah and his folks were drowned. It is after this that verse 94 declares,

told that the history that Quran has just narrated is well-known to the people of the Book. So if you do not believe in what has been told to you, ask the people who have the Book before you. Needless to say, the incidents of doom of nations of Noah (pbuh), and Moses (pbuh) and Aaron (pbuh) are all narrated in the Bible. In addition, narrations of the stories of many other nations can also be found in the Bible which were doomed by the Almighty for their disbelief in the messengers of God. This reference to the people of the Book is primarily for the purposes of verification of history.

The prophecies fulfilled.

visit me there and I will show you that such claim is false.

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134274075-why-jews-dont-believe-jesus.html

 

[Zamtsa]

That's a good reply from Imam, infact the BIBLE only tell about Jesus was around 30 Years old, where was the other story of him? Where?
So I ask Christian why do you reject Gospel of Nazorean, Gospel of The Ebionites and Gospel of the Holy Twelve? And if you're still an Ebionite, why don't you read this is in Bible:


The BURNING of True 'Iisa Followers By Romans Empire

والسماء ذات البروج(1)

واليوم الموعود(2)
وشاهد ومشهود(3)
قتل أصحاب الأخدود(4)
النار ذات الوقود(5)
إذ هم عليها قعود(6)
وهم على ما يفعلون بالمؤمنين شهود(7)
وما نقموا منهم إلا أن يؤمنوا بالله العزيز الحميد(8)
الذي له ملك السماوات والأرض والله على كل شيء شهيد(9)
إن الذين فتنوا المؤمنين والمؤمنات ثم لم يتوبوا فلهم عذاب جهنم ولهم عذاب الحريق(10)
إن الذين آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات لهم جنات تجري من تحتها الأنهار ذلك الفوز الكبير(11)
إن بطش ربك لشديد(12)
إنه هو يبدئ ويعيد(13)
وهو الغفور الودود(14)
ذو العرش المجيد(15)
فعال لما يريد(16)
هل أتاك حديث الجنود(17)
فرعون وثمود(18)
بل الذين كفروا في تكذيب(19)
والله من ورائهم محيط(20)
بل هو قرآن مجيد(21)
في لوح محفوظ(22)

001. By the heaven, holding mansions of the stars,
002. And by the Promised Day.
003. And by the witness and that whereunto he beareth testimony,
004. (Self-)destroyed were the owners of the ditch
005. Of the fuel-fed fire,
006. When they SAt by it,
007. And were themselves the witnesses of what they did to the BELIEVERS.
008. They had naught against them save that they BELIEVED in Allah, the Mighty, the Owner of Praise,
009. Him unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth; and Allah is of all things the Witness.
010. Lo! they who persecute (BURN) believing men and believing women and repent not, theirs verily will be the doom of hell, and theirs the doom of burning.
011. Lo! those who believe and do good works, theirs will be Gardens underneath which rivers flow. That is the Great Success.
012. Lo! the punishment of thy Lord is stern.
013. Lo! He it is Who produceth, then reproduceth,
014. And He is the Forgiving, the Loving,
015. Lord of the Throne of Glory,
016. Doer of what He will.
017. Hath there come unto thee the story of the hosts
018. Of Pharaoh and (the tribe of) Tsamud?
019. Nay, but those who disbelieve live in denial
020. And Allah, all unseen, surroundeth them.
021. Nay, but it is a glorious Qur'an.
022. On a guarded tablet.

For ayat no.14, my comment is that the Roman king who like to say that they forgive someone mistakes and free them from charge aren't Ghafuurul Waduud (the Forgiving, the Loving) who is Allahu 'Azza wa Jalla.


ما المسيح ابن مريم إلا رسول قد خلت من قبله الرسل وأمه صديقة كانا يأكلان الطعام انظر كيف نبين لهم الآيات ثم انظر أنى يؤفكون (QS.5:75)

Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to EAT their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!


(QS.5:75)

Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to EAT their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

قل إن كان للرحمن ولد فأنا أول العابدين(QS.43:81)
Say: "If (Allah) Most Gracious had a son, I would be the first to worship."

The earth and sky aren't as the result of marriage between Allah and a woman as some spiritual said. This is the evidence:

تكاد السماوات يتفطرن منه وتنشق الأرض وتخر الجبال هدا(QS.19:90)
At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,

إذ قالت الملآئكة يا مريم إن الله يبشرك بكلمة منه اسمه المسيح عيسى ابن مريم وجيها في الدنيا والآخرة ومن المقربين(QS.3:45)
Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;

إذ قال الله يا عيسى إني متوفيك ورافعك إلي ومطهرك من الذين كفروا وجاعل الذين اتبعوك فوق الذين كفروا إلى يوم القيامة ثم إلي مرجعكم فأحكم بينكم فيما كنتم فيه تختلفون(QS.3:55)
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

إن مثل عيسى عند الله كمثل آدم خلقه من تراب ثم قال له كن فيكون(QS.3:59)
The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

وبكفرهم وقولهم على مريم بهتانا عظيما(QS.4:156)
That they rejected Faith(to 'Iisa); that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

فبما نقضهم ميثاقهم وكفرهم بآيات الله وقتلهم الأنبياء بغير حق وقولهم قلوبنا غلف بل طبع الله عليها بكفرهم فلا يؤمنون إلا قليلا(QS.4:156)
(They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; We need no more)";- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-

وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا(QS.4:157)
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they KILLED him not, nor CRUCIFIED him, but so it was made to APPEAR to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only CONJECTURE to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

وإن من أهل الكتاب إلا ليؤمنن به قبل موته ويوم القيامة يكون عليهم شهيدا(QS.4:159) The Proof that 'Iisa still live in the 3rd sky and will descend and become a just judge using Al Qur'an and As Sunnah.
And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his DEATH; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

THE UNTOLD STORY OF 'Iisa And Nashrani

إذ قال الله يا عيسى ابن مريم اذكر نعمتي عليك وعلى والدتك إذ أيدتك بروح القدس تكلم الناس في المهد وكهلا وإذ
علمتك الكتاب والحكمة والتوراة والإنجيل وإذ تخلق من الطين كهيئة الطير بإذني فتنفخ فيها فتكون طيرا بإذني وتبرئ الأكمه والأبرص بإذني وإذ تخرج الموتى بإذني وإذ كففت بني إسرائيل عنك إذ جئتهم بالبينات فقال الذين كفروا منهم إن هذا إلا سحر مبينQS.5:110)

Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'


وكذلك أعثرنا عليهم ليعلموا أن وعد الله حق وأن الساعة لا ريب فيها إذ يتنازعون بينهم أمرهم فقالوا ابنوا عليهم بنيانا ربهم أعلم بهم قال الذين غلبوا على أمرهم لنتخذن عليهم مسجدا(QS.18:21)The Habit Of Making Churches Above The Grave Of Pious People

Thus did We make their case known to the people, that they might know that the promise of Allah is true, and that there can be no doubt about the Hour of Judgment. Behold, they dispute among themselves as to their affair. (Some) said, "Construct a building over them": Their Lord knows best about them: those who prevailed over their affair said, "Let us surely build a PLACE of WORSHIP over them."


QS.2:87 Wa laqad a_taina_ musal kita_ba wa qaffaina_ mim ba'dihi bir rusul(i), wa a_taina_ 'isabna maryamal bayyina_ti fa ayyadna_hu bi ruhil qudus(i), afakullama_ ja_'akum rasulum bima_ la_ tahwa_ anfusukumus takbartum, fa fariqan kazzabtum wa fariqan taqtulu_n(a).

A. Yusuf Ali Quran TranslationSurah Al-Baqara Ruku 11 Surah 2Madina (87) 286 Ayahs40 Rukus


QS.2:87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary CLEAR (Signs) and strengthened him with the HOLY SPIRIT. Is it that whenever there comes to you an Apostle with what ye yourselves desire not ye are puffed up with pride? Some ye called impostors and others ye slay!


Quran TransliterationSurah Al-Baqara Ruku 16 Surah 2Madina (87) 286 Ayahs40 Rukus


QS.2:136 Qu_lu_ a_manna_ billa_hi wa ma_ unzila ilaina_ wa ma_ unzila ila_ ibra_hima wa isma_'ila wa isha_qa wa ya'qu_ba wal asba_ti wa ma_ u_tiya mu_sa_ wa 'isa_ wa ma_ u_tiyan nabiyyu_na mir rabbihim, la_ nufarriqu baina ahadim minhum, wa nahnu lahu_ muslimu_n(a).

A. Yusuf Ali Quran TranslationSurah Al-Baqara Ruku 16 Surah 2Madina (87) 286 Ayahs40 Rukus


QS.2:136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

Quran TransliterationSurah Al-i'Imran Ruku 5 Surah 3Madina (89) 200 Ayahs19 Rukus



QS.3:45 Iz qa_latil mala_'ikatu ya_ maryamu innalla_ha yubasysyiruki bi kalimatim minh(u), ismuhul masihu'isabnu maryama wajihan fid dunya_ wal a_khirati wa minal muqarrabin(a).

A. Yusuf Ali Quran TranslationSurah Al-i'Imran Ruku 5 Surah 3Madina (89) 200 Ayahs19 Rukus

45 Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus the son of Mary held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

Quran TransliterationSurah Al-i'Imran Ruku 5 Surah 3Madina (89) 200 Ayahs19 Rukus



QS.3:52 Falamma_ ahassa 'isa_ minhumul kufra qa_la man ansa_ri ilalla_h(i), qa_lal hawa_riyyu_na nahnu ansa_rulla_h(i), a_manna_ billa_h(i), wasyhad bi anna_ muslimu_n(a).

A. Yusuf Ali Quran TranslationSurah Al-i'Imran Ruku 5 Surah 3Madina (89) 200 Ayahs19 Rukus


52 When Jesus found unbelief on their part he said: "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the Disciples: "We are Allah's helpers we believe in Allah and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

Quran TransliterationSurah Al-i'Imran Ruku 5 Surah 3Madina (89) 200 Ayahs19 Rukus


QS.3:55 Iz qa_lalla_hu ya_ 'isa_ inni mutawaffika wa ra_fi'uka ilayya wa mutahhiruka minal lazina kafaru_ wa ja_'ilul lazinattaba'u_ka fauqal lazina kafaru_ ila_ yaumil qiya_mah(ti), summa ilayya marji'ukum fa ahkumu bainakum fima_ kuntum fihi takhtalifu_n(a).

A. Yusuf Ali Quran TranslationSurah Al-i'Imran Ruku 5 Surah 3Madina (89) 200 Ayahs19 Rukus


QS.3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith to the Day of Resurrection; then shall ye all return unto Me and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Quran TransliterationSurah An-Nisaa Ruku 23 Surah 4Madina (92) 176 Ayahs24 Rukus


QS.4:171 Ya_ ahlal kita_bi la_ taglu_ fi dinikum wa la_ taqu_lu_'alallu_hi illal haqq(a), innamal masihu 'isabnu maryama rasu_lulla_hi wa kalimatuh(a_), alqa_ha_ ila_ maryama wa ru_hum minh(u), fa a_minu_ billa_hi warusulih(i), wa la_ taqu_lu_ sala_sah(tun), intahu_ khairal lakum, innamalla_hu ila_huw wa_hid(un), subha_nahu_ an taka_na lahu_ walad(un), lahu_ ma_ fis sama_wa_ti wa ma_ fil ard(i), wa kafa_ billa_hi wakila_.

A. Yusuf Ali Quran TranslationSurah An-Nisaa Ruku 23 Surah 4Madina (92) 176 Ayahs24 Rukus


171 O people of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an Apostle of Allah and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Apostles. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One Allah: glory be to him: (for Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

Quran TransliterationSurah Al-Maida Ruku 6 Surah 5Madina (112) 120 Ayahs16 Rukus


QS.5:46 Wa qaffaina_ 'ala_ a_sa_rihim bi'isabni maryama musaddiqal lima_ baina yadaihi minat taura_h(ti), wa a_taina_hul injila fihi hudaw wa nu_r(uw), wa musaddiqal lima_ baina yadaihi minat taura_ti wa hudaw wa mau'izatal lil muttaqin(a).

A. Yusuf Ali Quran TranslationSurah Al-Maida Ruku 6 Surah 5Madina (112) 120 Ayahs16 Rukus


46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary confirming the law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light and confirmation of the law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

Quran TransliterationSurah Al-Maida Ruku 10 Surah 5Madina (112) 120 Ayahs16 Rukus



78 Lu'inal lazina kafaru_ mim bani isra_'ila 'ala_ lisa_ni da_wu_da wa 'isabni maryam(a), za_lika bima_ 'asaw wa ka_nu_ ya'tadu_n(a).

A. Yusuf Ali Quran TranslationSurah Al-Maida Ruku 10 Surah 5Madina (112) 120 Ayahs16 Rukus


78 Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected faith by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses. 786 787

Quran TransliterationSurah Al-Maida Ruku 14 Surah 5Madina (112) 120 Ayahs16 Rukus


QS.5:111 Wa iz auhaitu ilal hawa_riyyina an a_minu_ bi wa birasu_li, qa_lu_ a_manna_ wasyhad bi annana_ muslimu_n(a).

A. Yusuf Ali Quran TranslationSurah Al-Maida Ruku 14 Surah 5Madina (112) 120 Ayahs16 Rukus


QS.5:111 "And behold! I inspired the Disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Apostle: they said `We have faith and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims'."

A. Yusuf Ali Quran TranslationSurah Al-Maida Ruku 15 Surah 5Madina (112) 120 Ayahs16 Rukus


The ORIGIN of Sunday praying:

112 Behold! the disciples said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah if ye have faith." 825
113 They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle.
114 Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! send us from heaven a table set (with viands) that there may be for us for the first and the last of us a solemn festival and a sign from Thee; and provide for our sustenance for Thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs).

A. Yusuf Ali Quran TranslationSurah Al-Muminun Ruku 3 Surah 23Mecca (74) 118 Ayahs6 Rukus


50 And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground affording rest and security and furnished with springs. 2906 2907

Jesus could talk since he was a baby:

A. Yusuf Ali Quran TranslationSurah Az-Zukhruf Ruku 6 Surah 43Mecca (63) 89 Ayahs7 Rukus



63 When Jesus came with Clear Signs he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me. 4663
64 "For Allah; He is my Lord and your Lord: so worship ye Him: this is a Straight Way." 4664
65 But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement: then woe to the wrongdoers from the Penalty of a Grievous Day!

A. Yusuf Ali Quran TranslationSurah Al-Hadid Ruku 4 Surah 57Madina (94) 29 Ayahs4 Rukus



27 Then in their wake We followed them up with (others of) Our apostles: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the monasticism which they invented for themselves We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good pleasure of Allah; but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed on those among them who believed their (due) reward but many of them are rebellious transgressors.

A. Yusuf Ali Quran TranslationSurah As-Saff Ruku 1 Surah 61Madina (109) 14 Ayahs2 Rukus



QS.61:14 O ye who believe! be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the Disciples "We are Allah's helpers!" Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed and a portion disbelieved: but We gave power to those who believed against their enemies and they became the ones that PREVAILED.

 

[Grace Seeker]

First:

If we agree that God's spirit is nothing concrete in nature and never occupies a given space at a given time, that means not only there is never a time when the son (Jesus as in his spiritual form) was not in existence ,but also
there is never a time when all human mankind (as in spirits) were not in existence.
you see now, under your line of reasoning ,how many could fairly join the Godhead?

How do you reach the conclusion of the portion I highlighted above? I understand that Muslims believe that all persons already exist on the spiritual plane, but this is not what is taught in the Bible nor believed by either Christians nor Jews. We do not exist until our creation in our mother's womb, that includes our spirit as well. Thus, talking about Jesus as being pre-existent is only possible when speaking of him as the incarnation of the eternally existing God, not in his humanness.


It seemed much of the rest of your critique flowed from this error in understanding the Christian view of humanity.


But I do want to comment on the following:

in sum

If one claims that :

the Father has timeless,limitless,indivisible spiritual form .

and

The son(before,during,after incarnation)has timeless,limitless,indivisible spiritual form .

then logically the son has to be the father and vice versa..... and the phrases


God incarnated

the father incarnated

the son incarnated

would surely mean the exact same thing

I don't really have much of a problem with this. This is why I keep reminding you that we Christians don't actually associate partners with God. Though I know that Muslims will continue to accuse us of such blasphemy, whether speaking of the Father or Jesus it is all the same one God to us.

 

[Follower]

Hold the phone!!!!! grace that popped out at me too - wow imam I did not know that Muslims thought

"never a time when all human mankind (as in spirits) were not in existence"

Abdul - there are snippets of the truth of Christ as the Alpha and Omega troughou the Holy Bible.

 

[Imam]

Muslims believe that all persons already exist on the spiritual plane, but this is not what is taught in the Bible nor believed by either Christians nor Jews. We do not exist until our creation in our mother's womb, that includes our spirit as well. .

wow imam I did not know that Muslims thought "never a time when all human mankind (as in spirits) were not in existence .

Are you surprised? well,


(Job 33:4) "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.


(Job xii. 10). Through His spirit all living things are created; and when He withdraws it they perish.


the spirit of God is something timeless, not created .....

so you still sure that according to what the Bible teaches, our spirits not exist until our creation in our mother's womb?


if so then be ready for other surprises........

If one claims that :
the Father has timeless,limitless,indivisible spiritual form .

and
The son(before,during,after incarnation)has timeless,limitless,indivisible spiritual form .

then logically the son has to be the father and vice versa......

I don't really have much of a problem with this..

so you agree that son has to be the father and vice versa

well,could we say that the father was ignorant of the time of the hour?

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the father, but the son."

If not ,why not?