Congress begins acting to get America out of Iraq.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Keltoi;

and I don't believe anyone seriously concerned with American security could oppose the War in Afghanistan.

I have huge problems with American security, what about the security of Afghanistan?

How many thousands of innocent Afghans have died who had nothing to do with 9 / 11?

The working man in Afghanistan and Iraq deserves peace and security just like anyone else; yet America and Britain seem to ignore this.

In the spirit of striving to live at peace with our neighbour and our enemy,

Eric

 

[Agnostic]

Good point. Donald Rumsfeld's transformation of the Cold War era U.S. military into a "mobile and versatile" force is all well and good for taking down a regime, but to provide security for a country requires massive troops levels. Personally, I don't think Donald Rumsfeld actually intended to stay in Iraq for an extended period of time. Rummy is a scapegoat on many levels.

I really don't think he is a scapegoat in the sense that he must have seen that his trimmed down version of the American military wasn't working very early on. However the buck really stops with Bush as he is the commander and chief, he should have listened to the military and not a armchair warrior. (but I guess he had to listen to somebody as Bush couldn't plan a tea party) the plan to send in more troops now is really hindsight and I don't believe 20,000 will be enough to stop the sectarian violence or instill any kind of security as the Mahdi militia reportedly has more than 60,000 members, not really sure how many Sunni there are, not to mention the forces from both sides that are fighting the US as well

 

[north_malaysian]

Conclusion - all of us agreed that Bush Jr. is one crazy president...

 

[Woodrow]

Conclusion - all of us agreed that Bush Jr. is one crazy president...

Don't blame us Texans all we wanted to do was get him out of Texas. We never suspected that the Yankees would elect him President.


We were thinking more in terms of getting him a job in the White House that was within his abilities. But, the guy who cleans the toilets didn't retire.

 

[Akil]

I wrote this sometime ago and here is as good as any place to put it:

If the killing would stop I would say yes, pull my follow soldiers out of harms way right now. But if the US pulls out 27 million Iraqi lives are in jeopardy.

Our greatest victory in Iraq was also our greatest injustice.

In toppling the Iraqi Baath party we have created a power vacuum in one of the most strategic countries in the Middle East.

Saddam was the biggest bully on the playground and hundreds of thousands (from murder), millions (from war with Iran) of dead can attest to this. Now that he is gone all the lesser bullies have come out and want to play, want to try and take the biggest bullies place.

I guaranty if we pull out of Iraq the Kurds claim independence, I also guaranty that Turkey will start a war that will destroy both countries.

I guaranty the threatened Sunni minority would get the support from the Salafi infrastructure of Saudi Arabia. Eventually Egypt, still vying for badass of the Sunni Nations would lend their support. I guaranty the Arab Shia majority would then be forced to look to Iran for support.

Then what happens is a full on proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia or maybe even Iran and the entire Sunni world. In a war like this ethnic and religious minorities such as the Assyrians will simply be killed in the crossfire.

What if the entire Middle East becomes destabilized ?

What if the entire Middle East is destabilized and then the battle spills over into Europe, Asia, and Africa ?

What if other powers become involved out of greed or necessity ?

How many will die then ?

I’m not going to spend a lot of time defending the US’s actions or arguing about why or why we shouldn’t be in Iraq. I just wanted to throw in my two cents.

 

[Woodrow]

Very heavy 2 cents you tossed in. You just raised some very good points that need to be taken into consideration. We can not go back and undo what was done. The problem now is how to save lives and have all people treated fairly.

Although we in the US have to accept much responsibility for the mess, it is clear we can not fix the damage by ourselves. This is going to take a group effort and a very difficult group effort as the needed cooperation is going to have to be between nations that do not trust, and fear each other.

 

[Keltoi]

Greetings and peace be with you Keltoi;



I have huge problems with American security, what about the security of Afghanistan?

How many thousands of innocent Afghans have died who had nothing to do with 9 / 11?

The working man in Afghanistan and Iraq deserves peace and security just like anyone else; yet America and Britain seem to ignore this.

In the spirit of striving to live at peace with our neighbour and our enemy,

Eric

Yes, in a perfect world there would be no Taliban, no Al-Qaeda training camps, no safe haven. Of course we all know these existed in Afghanistan, and any responsible leader of the U.S. could not allow that situation to continue. I agree that the people of Afghanistan suffered because of the war, but the primary responsibility for this falls to the Taliban itself. I sympathize with the issues you raised, believe me I do, but no matter the number of prayers or good wishes one heaps on a situation, you would still have people plotting to kill Americans. That cannot be ignored.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Keltoi;

I wonder how America and Britain have benefited by invading Afghanistan and Iraq?

Was it the right thing to do for a long term solution?

I sympathize with the issues you raised, believe me I do, but no matter the number of prayers or good wishes one heaps on a situation.

I wonder why Jesus said to love and pray for your enemy, would the world be a better place today if we had prayed for the people of Afghanistan and Iraq instead of invading them.

Should we really trust God to solve injustice, or do we have to take the law into our own hands?

In the spirit of seeking justice for the oppressed

Eric

 

[Keltoi]

Greetings and peace be with you Keltoi;

I wonder how America and Britain have benefited by invading Afghanistan and Iraq?

Was it the right thing to do for a long term solution?



I wonder why Jesus said to love and pray for your enemy, would the world be a better place today if we had prayed for the people of Afghanistan and Iraq instead of invading them.

Should we really trust God to solve injustice, or do we have to take the law into our own hands?

In the spirit of seeking justice for the oppressed

Eric

God helps those who help themselves. Do you think by praying for Iraq and Afghanistan that was going to stop more Americans from being targeted? Perhaps you are right, but something tells me you aren't. Any president who just watched 3,000 people die from a terrorist attack that was planned and funded from Afghanistan, and chose to pray on national television and trust God to sort it all out would be flogged from the White House. Rightfully so. Not all Americans are religious, but all Americans expect their government to protect them from foreign enemies. That is the job of the government. If one wishes to pray on their own time for God to bring justice and peace, that is great. Governments do not have that luxury.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Keltoi;

God helps those who help themselves.

About a billion people on this planet earn less than a dollar a day, these people are not in a position to help themselves. Half the people on earth earn less than two dollars a day, there is not much these people can do to help themselves. If you earn over five thousand dollars a year you become one of the top ten percent of the richest people on Earth. I wonder how many Americans would bother getting out of bed to earn that amount of money

I wonder if God really abandons the poor in order to help the rich.

The people who can help themselves are the rich and they do. It is the way that the rich exploit the world resources that probably drives people to do desperate things like 9 / 11.

If people can’t help themselves it kind of suggests that it is ok to bomb them because they can’t help themselves against this kind of warfare.

In the spirit of seeking peace on Earth

Eric

 

[Keltoi]

Greetings and peace be with you Keltoi;



About a billion people on this planet earn less than a dollar a day, these people are not in a position to help themselves. Half the people on earth earn less than two dollars a day, there is not much these people can do to help themselves. If you earn over five thousand dollars a year you become one of the top ten percent of the richest people on Earth. I wonder how many Americans would bother getting out of bed to earn that amount of money

I wonder if God really abandons the poor in order to help the rich.

The people who can help themselves are the rich and they do. It is the way that the rich exploit the world resources that probably drives people to do desperate things like 9 / 11.

If people can’t help themselves it kind of suggests that it is ok to bomb them because they can’t help themselves against this kind of warfare.

In the spirit of seeking peace on Earth

Eric

Being poor had nothing to do with 9-11. The people that committed that atrocity came from well off families. I'm not trying to attack you, who could attack a message such as yours, but you jumped off point fairly quickly. The point was whether "praying for Afghanistan" was enough to protect the people of the United States. Perhaps you believe that it is, but that reminds me of people praying for Hitler to stop, or praying for Stalin. The Taliban were definitely of that ilk.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Keltoi; and thanks for your reply,

I wasn’t trying to avoid your question but you did make a couple of points in your last post, one of which was that God helps those who help themselves.

9 / 11 has happened and there is nothing we can do to change that, but there were a number of choices open to how America could react.

We have the privilege of hindsight now and we can look back on the president’s decision to invade two countries. Thousands of Americans and others have died and there does not appear to be any end to hostilities.

Now Mr Bush prayed that God would be on his side when he invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, so he is not against prayer.

Now I ask you to consider another option open to the president, he could have prayed for peace and reconciliation instead.

Would the world be a safer place, would there be more stability in the Middle East? Would America have more allies, would they be safer from further acts of terrorism?

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

 

[Keltoi]

Greetings and peace be with you Keltoi; and thanks for your reply,

I wasn’t trying to avoid your question but you did make a couple of points in your last post, one of which was that God helps those who help themselves.

9 / 11 has happened and there is nothing we can do to change that, but there were a number of choices open to how America could react.

We have the privilege of hindsight now and we can look back on the president’s decision to invade two countries. Thousands of Americans and others have died and there does not appear to be any end to hostilities.

Now Mr Bush prayed that God would be on his side when he invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, so he is not against prayer.

Now I ask you to consider another option open to the president, he could have prayed for peace and reconciliation instead.

Would the world be a safer place, would there be more stability in the Middle East? Would America have more allies, would they be safer from further acts of terrorism?

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

I understand what you mean, but do you truly believe that would stop Al-Qaeda and like minded groups from targeting Americans? Would anything short of a war have stopped Al-Qaeda from training in Afghanistan? Inaction is percieved as weakness. It's a difficult philosophical question, and I'm trying to get away from philosophy and deal with the concrete realities.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Keltoi;

What would motivate educated young people to fly a plane into a building? Something must have been desperately wrong, they did not seem to be doing this for themselves, rather they seemed to be standing up for others. Those terrorists must have been standing up for something so powerful that it compelled them to end their lives.

9 / 11 was wrong, but in order to try and stop any future terrorism there is the need to try and find out why it happened. In order to pray for peace there is also the need to try and resolve those problems as part of the solution.

Praying for peace is not for our benefit, rather we are seeking peace for our children and grandchildren. It feels that we have to sacrifice our own desire for justice through retaliation.

I can remember some years back when a bomb went off in a passenger plane and it crashed into Lockerbie in Scotland; killing about two hundred people. It took years of investigation but they eventually found the people responsible. It would have been wrong at the time to say Libya is responsible, lets invade the country.

If we had invaded Libya thousands more would have died and all their families would want justice and retaliation.

In the spirit of seeking alternatives to war,

Eric

 

[Keltoi]

Greetings and peace be with you Keltoi;

What would motivate educated young people to fly a plane into a building? Something must have been desperately wrong, they did not seem to be doing this for themselves, rather they seemed to be standing up for others. Those terrorists must have been standing up for something so powerful that it compelled them to end their lives.

9 / 11 was wrong, but in order to try and stop any future terrorism there is the need to try and find out why it happened. In order to pray for peace there is also the need to try and resolve those problems as part of the solution.

Praying for peace is not for our benefit, rather we are seeking peace for our children and grandchildren. It feels that we have to sacrifice our own desire for justice through retaliation.

I can remember some years back when a bomb went off in a passenger plane and it crashed into Lockerbie in Scotland; killing about two hundred people. It took years of investigation but they eventually found the people responsible. It would have been wrong at the time to say Libya is responsible, lets invade the country.

If we had invaded Libya thousands more would have died and all their families would want justice and retaliation.

In the spirit of seeking alternatives to war,

Eric[/QUOTE

With all due respect, that is a recipe for more death. I understand you are pacifist, and in that respect perhaps you are a better Christian than I am. While you are concerned with what "motivates" a terrorist and blaming the U.S. for it, I'm concerned with protecting Americans. I agree, peace and understanding is a worthy goal. However, peace and understanding are pretty hard to come by when planes fall from the sky and 3,000 people are wiped off this earth. On American soil I might add. Call me old-fashioned, but I'm still concerned with defending America and its people from their enemies.

 

[shible]

U.S. facing Soviet-style defeat in Afghanistan



The United States faces a Soviet-style humiliation in Afghanistan, a fugitive Afghan warlord claimed in a video message while taunting Pakistan for aiding U.S.-led counterterrorism operations.

In a recording obtained by The Associated Press in Pakistan, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar also accused Washington of fomenting conflict among Afghan ethnic groups on a scale comparable with the strife in Iraq.

"Everyone knows that the American aggressors are faced with defeat in every part of the country," Hekmatyar said. "They were unable to achieve their goals by bombing innocent Afghans, their villages and homes. They are preparing to leave like the Soviet troops."



here is the source


U.S. facing Soviet-style defeat in Afghanistan

 

[Keltoi]

Re: U.S. facing Soviet-style defeat in Afghanistan

The United States faces a Soviet-style humiliation in Afghanistan, a fugitive Afghan warlord claimed in a video message while taunting Pakistan for aiding U.S.-led counterterrorism operations.

In a recording obtained by The Associated Press in Pakistan, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar also accused Washington of fomenting conflict among Afghan ethnic groups on a scale comparable with the strife in Iraq.

"Everyone knows that the American aggressors are faced with defeat in every part of the country," Hekmatyar said. "They were unable to achieve their goals by bombing innocent Afghans, their villages and homes. They are preparing to leave like the Soviet troops."



here is the source


U.S. facing Soviet-style defeat in Afghanistan

lol...wow, some Taliban propaganda. Thanks for this bit of hard hitting information.

 

[starfortress]

Re: U.S. facing Soviet-style defeat in Afghanistan



I wouldn't say anything about humiliation or Soviet defeating styles,but somehow there are truth about the text,something like unchanged or impossible to change situation like, still Al-Qaeda in the main frames,still videos tape massage annoying in TV.One thing the U.S and Soviet have shared in common are,the more you release the fire,the more you'll get blame,and it's fit in Iraq too.