Conspiracies: Denialism or Scepticism?

[Hugo]

so is it the only source and if it is why dont you take it FULLY or do you have other sources contradiciting the event? whats your criteria of recording plain history - theres many other things in the same source is that also history?

When you say 'take it fully' I am unclear what you mean. There are two elements: the first is shall we say the facts and I fully understand that these may vary between different accounts and secondly there is the interpretation of those facts. So are you expecting me or anyone to never accept one without the other? So if you agree that 600 Jews were executed at Medina then I might well agree with you based on the various sources but it does not follow at all that I have to agree that it was an entirely justified and noble thing to do as you or Muslim commentators might interpret that event? Do you agree?

 

[جوري]

salaam

thats exactly what I was implying

peace

It is always so obvious to everyone else than him, I didn't even read your post to figure out exactly what he was doing.. this is the sort of crap that flies in their circles but honestly, expecting rational human beings to subscribe to that brand of 'logic' or lack thereof simply won't fly in the real world...

again, you must pity them, the only way their religion seems appealing is for them to have century long lies which are so readily believed by them.. They should be grateful for secularism they'd still be stuck in the dark ages!

 

[Amadeus85]

Recently Paul McCartney compared global warming denialism with Holocaust denialsm. What a brainless prick.

 

[syed_z]

Well thanks Hugo and Zafran...

I didn't join the Conversation from the Beginning, so i have missed on quite alot, didn't take much time to read from the beginning, so i apologize for bringing up something else, if i did...

 

[Zafran]

When you say 'take it fully' I am unclear what you mean. There are two elements: the first is shall we say the facts and I fully understand that these may vary between different accounts and secondly there is the interpretation of those facts. So are you expecting me or anyone to never accept one without the other? So if you agree that 600 Jews were executed at Medina then I might well agree with you based on the various sources but it does not follow at all that I have to agree that it was an entirely justified and noble thing to do as you or Muslim commentators might interpret that event? Do you agree?

what accounts - what sources, what facts - how do you determine them - just because you want to? - as i said there are other things in the same source are they also plain history? whats the criteria?

Lets see how you get to the frst element?

 

[sabr*]

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

Muslims:

do we follow the guidance and instruction of Allah? Allah directs Muslims how to communicate with Al-Kitab (People of the Scripture).

Be mindful of our Adab (Conduct)

Surah Ankabut

وَلَا تُجَادِلُوا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْهُمْ وَقُولُوا آمَنَّا بِالَّذِي أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَأُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَإِلَهُنَا وَإِلَهُكُمْ وَاحِدٌ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ (29:46)

29:46 (Y. Ali) And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

 

[syed_z]

Well this perhaps is not the place to argue about this history as such and I raised it as a point of morality and of course it is possible to justify it as you have done but your view is not the only one possible.

well Hugo... i do understand and i respect, whatever your Point of View is... we cannot force our point of view on each other... But Remember a Society which is Strong on a Moral level, has to HAVE justice 1st! If there is no Justice and people do whatever and there are no limits, then there can be no True Morality...

 

[aadil77]

Give an example? Also does it not strike you as odd that America allows Muslims to build mosques and the religious freedom that implies whereas in say Saudi Arabia there is not a single church and in other places where local Christian want to build a church there are howls of protest from Muslims? Consider:

I'm not talking about building churches or masjids

What I meant is that just from watching a bit on tv you get the impression that in some parts of US people share that same patriotism towards christianity as they do for america as a country. So with such blind following and ignorance you're bound to get churches that preach against other religions, I remember watching a video with a american minister calling islam a religion of 'satan' and that prophet Muhammad is the 'false prophet' who calls to satans way - now can you imagine something like that being preached in a church over here?

 

[Zafran]

Well thanks Hugo and Zafran...

I didn't join the Conversation from the Beginning, so i have missed on quite alot, didn't take much time to read from the beginning, so i apologize for bringing up something else, if i did...

Salaam

dont worry about bro

May Allah bless you

peace

 

[syed_z]

Btw Zafran... could you please tell me in short, what are we discussing or what are we supposed to discuss... thanks !

 

[Zafran]

Btw Zafran... could you please tell me in short, what are we discussing or what are we supposed to discuss... thanks !

salaam

I was here defending by previous statment about the west making clones in the muslim world - thats when I joined the thread

peace

 

[Hugo]

Welll bro Hugo i do agree to all those Examples you gave of Muslim Intolerance...

Just to be clear I gave ONE example of Muslim intolerance and ONE of Muslim tolerance.

and that is true because ALL those states you mentioned... are based on Secular Systems and not Pure Islamic System or Pure Islamic Ideology... since they rule With Democracy, that is Majority Vote, the democracy has become a Cover for those Corrupt Muslim Regimes to hide their Faults and still Maintain their Rule over the Majority of Ummah..

Well I mentioned Afghanistan and Kazakhstan and the first is clearly not secular and the second perhaps is or might be regarded that way. Frankly, I have no idea what this pure Islam is though one sees the idea every where and sadly usually as a way of avoiding facing up to Islamic failures. So what do you mean by it, Wahhabism for instanced?

1.Muslim Personal Law is NOT recognized in the Western Judicial System, while Non Muslim Personal Law is ACCEPTED in Muslim Countries

This may be true but the difference is that in a Western society the law is the same for everyone no matter who or what they are whilst Sharai is discriminatory.

Muslims in the West , throughout the West, are NOT allowed to Call their Prayer Call (Adhaan) while CHurch bells ring Freely in most and almost ALL of Muslim Countires including mine... Pakistan.

Well I cannot speak with authority on this as it is not a matter of law as such and usually it will be judged on its nuisance value. Lots of Church bell ringing has been stopped because of the noise and the same would apply to calls to prayer. One wonders why in a modern age one has to use a loudspeaker to call people to prayer so maybe you just need to get up to date.

The Wide spread Anti Islamic Point of view prevalent in the Modern Day Media, is because of Intolerance and no other reason.

I study my paper every day and I don't see this, I go to church meetings almost every day and I have NEVER heard anti-Islam preachers so I think you are muddling up the freedoms to express a view with assumptions as to its prevalence. I visit the UAE a lot and I get the papers there every days and they look just the same, report the same sort of news in much the same way.

In my local church with attached school where a large proportion of the kids are Muslim and every DAY I see Muslim women going in an out of the school as well as in and out of the church for various activities. So whilst I am not denying that hate exists it may not be as common as you imply. Conversely, every day almost I get a report of a Church being damaged or destroyed, Christians being harassed or hurt or out in jail in a Muslim majority country - do YOU ever read such reports?

You like me have to be able to see both sides of the coin - don't you agree?

 

[Zafran]

so hugo did you read my last post?? waiting for the reply

 

[جوري]

You like me have to be able to see both sides of the coin - don't you agree?[/COLOR]

I don't think anyone here at all can agree that you see 'both sides of the coin' just given the amount of venomous rhetoric you spew.. you in fact demonstrate and repeatedly a myopic one sided view and growing ever restive when challenged in the most trivial issues which you have no lucid or consistent reply to..

 

[Hugo]

so hugo did you read my last post?? waiting for the reply

Sorry about this but your last post seems to be:

salaam
I was here defending by previous statment about the west making clones in the muslim world - thats when I joined the thread
peace

So can you say the post numbers please?

 

[Zafran]

You like me have to be able to see both sides of the coin - don't you agree?

Hugo you dont see things from both sides - your as bias as everyone else - you read a paper every day - what paper do you read? Because all the examples you Gave are christain examples - is that becasue your a christian (bias) - because as muslims we clearly can see muslim being targeted - we're in the news far more then the christains. By the way I'm sure muslims can give many examples of anti Islamic hatred they suffered on the streets of the west - I know I have - men called terroists, women getting there hijabs stripped off - lets not forget about the terrorims laws and amount iof times muslims have been stopped and searched then the christains.

 

[Zafran]

number 85 I believe

 

[Zafran]

I don't think anyone here at all can agree that you see 'both sides of the coin' just given the amount of venomous rhetoric you spew.. you in fact demonstrate and repeatedly a myopic one sided view and growing ever restive when challenged in the most trivial issues which you have no lucid or consistent reply to..

salaam

Hes doing a great job in escaping the question - It realy makes me think why he actually comes here?

peace

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

@Hugo

I study my paper every day

*spits out her drink out*

In the uk? Are you sure? Do you honestly want me to list popular newspapers in the UK that are anti Islamic and always give false information about Muslims in the UK and the rest of the world? And the disproportion focus on Muslims, Islam and Muslim countries compared to what else is happening across the UK and the world?

I would not only categories these newspapers as anti Islamic but also racist and irrational.

 

[جوري]

salaam

Hes doing a great job in escaping the question - It realy makes me think why he actually comes here?

peace

in fact more than one person has confronted him with that already, even in matters unrelated to religion.
pls. see here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/health-science/134270536-medical-student-review-8.html#post1340656

it is an a,b,c,d,e or none of the above response.. it only requires application of knowledge which one claims one possesses not a great dance around it.. large compendiums of irrelevant text don't cut it I am afraid in any sector!