Controlling protesters

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Greetings and peace be with you Ramadhan

you WOULD think it's common sense, but in other not-so practical and not-so applicable religions, such as buddhism and christianity, you would have to give your properties away when the looters ransack your properties (remember the left cheek right cheek christian philosophy

I do not like the idea of guns being freely available to householders, simply because they would also be available to the bad guys; and they are the ones more likely to use a gun.
If looters think the householder is likely to be armed, then the robbers will also carry guns, looters are often in gangs, householders are often on their own, there are no guarantees that the good guys will win

The police may not get things right all the time, but I believe they should be trusted to deal with criminals, I also believe that the community has a duty to help the police.
I have a profound respect for the three Muslim guys killed recently in the riots, they were run over whilst trying to protect some property. The Muslim community are asking for a peaceful protest, see recent news item....

While Jahan had been shocked by the scene of his son being mown down by a speedy car and blood flowing from his body, he urged the gathered crowd to stop the violence as a token of affection and respect to the memory of his son.

http://www.presstv.com/detail/193725.html

May they rest in peace with their Lord, we pray that peace be restored in our communities.

Eric
 
I do not like the idea of guns being freely available to householders, simply because they would also be available to the bad guys; and they are the ones more likely to use a gun.
If looters think the householder is likely to be armed, then the robbers will also carry guns, looters are often in gangs, householders are often on their own, there are no guarantees that the good guys will win
I agree with this.

I don't think it's a good idea to flood the place with guns.
 
I do not like the idea of guns being freely available to householders, simply because they would also be available to the bad guys; and they are the ones more likely to use a gun.
If looters think the householder is likely to be armed, then the robbers will also carry guns, looters are often in gangs, householders are often on their own, there are no guarantees that the good guys will win

Salam Eric,

I never argued for guns being freely available to householders, and in fact, if I were a US citizen, I would have voted for gun control.
I don't know how you interpreted my statement that we are commanded to defend our properties when attacked into "guns made freely available to householders".
 
I do not like the idea of guns being freely available to householders, simply because they would also be available to the bad guys; and they are the ones more likely to use a gun.
If looters think the householder is likely to be armed, then the robbers will also carry guns, looters are often in gangs, householders are often on their own, there are no guarantees that the good guys will win

i totally disagree - with all due respect, humans have had the ability to defend their persons and loved ones since time began,

even animals have claws,

the definition of a criminal is usually someone who doesn't obey laws, (disbelievers don't obey God's laws), anyways - most criminals can get hold of guns, and i could too back in my wild days,
with corruption at an all time high and politicians working almost directly under usurers and oil thiefs, it becomes an even bigger issue to rely solely on police who serve the orders of the politicians, not of the people - ask them - is heroin illegal? yes. if the politicians made it legal tomorrow, would you have to support me and retrieve it for me if it was stolen tomorrow? yes. what if the people were against such an idea? i would still have to take orders from the chain of command - or leave my job.

just a few weeks ago - i witnessed a boy on a bike rip a gold chain off a girls and ride off, i called the police and was on the phone with them for 5 minutes just describing what i saw, never saw them appear as i walked down the road- by which time the kid was gone, if he'd pulled a knife, the girl would have been a frozen corpse by the time any police could have responded. and having one cop per citizen would be like each citizen hiring a private bodyguard.

criminals can get weapons regardless, cops who serve the politicians have weapons with which they often abuse "authority", the common person is stuck like a person out of demolition man or brave new world. dead as a duck.

the right to bear arms is a God given right - as can be observed from even the time of Adam (pbuh) where he would have had at least a pointed object for hunting or self defence and through the ages. it is only recently when people have hired certain groups to take care of larger administration that governments or kings have taken away and demonized that God given right, and given the people the impression that they should have a monopoly on violence - which they are beginning to abuse.

is this how a public "servant" is supposed to address it's employers?


what was the need for that???


these are meant to be security guards hired by the people

here - a whole host of policemen come out on a giant road to ticket cars of supporters of a woman arrested for recording police from he own driveway when she saw them arresting a man she said was innocent, they let the boy go and arrested her, people came out the next day in support, suddenly, loads of police officers turn up in three squad cars and ticket them for being parked more than 12 inches from the curb on a road where 2 cars can pass side by side, where a truck would take up much more space, where they wouldn't normally have ANYONE ticketing.
is this why citizens hire security forces? to tax them unnecessarily??? i thought it was for convenience.


were forgetting that government is a group of people in a locality whom the people have hired for convenience - unless it's a tyrant king forcefully enforcing authority over them.

when america was made independent, it was through common people fighting king george's forces with whatever weapons they had, he would have still been ruling over them now if they didn't have the ability to defend themselves. only an insecure government which no longer represents the people would ban the people's God given right to bear arms as a blanket method due to a fear of an uprising.

if it's a government of the people by the people, the power should be in the hands of the people, unless people are made to believe that they themselves can't be trusted to keep arms, and a government which threatens martial law over refusal to allow $23 trillion bank bailouts can be trusted.

they were attacking the common people who had come out onto the streets to defend their properties while the thieves looted at the other end - in the name of "fighting vigilantism" .

the Prophets followers always had arms, and were taught righteousness and justice, not hollywood crime glorifying movies and libyan rebel triumphs - the only place he banned weapons was in the capital city - for obvious reasons - like a coupe.

2nd amendment:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

(a free state is where people are not subject to a small group enforcing absolute authority over them - back in the days - only slaves were not allowed to keep arms - due to the fear of a slave uprising
that is the definition of "free" in contrast to "slave").

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth,
the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,
a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
— That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,
deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,
— That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends,
it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,
and to institute new Government,
laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes;
and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism,
it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
— Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.
The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.
To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world......

......He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of
and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation: (obama justified illegal libya war powers not from congress - but from un authority - despite the wmd fiasco)
For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
(anti-terror cops with sub-machine guns?)
For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
(on Friday, the IPCC admitted it might have "inadvertently" misled the media into believing Duggan shot at police - that was the "independent" police complaints commission).
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
(Guantanamo bay?)


After the ummah gave their allegiance to Abu Bakr (ra), he said this:
O People! I have been put in authority over you and I am not the best of you.
So if I do the right thing then help me and if I do wrong then put me straight.
Truthfulness is a sacred trust and lying is a betrayal.
The weak amongst you is strong in my sight.
I will surely try to remove his pain and suffering.
And the strong amongst you is weak to me I will – Allah willing – realise the right from him fully.
When obscene things spread among any nation, calamities generally continued to descend upon them.
As long as I obey Allah and His messenger, you should obey me,
and if I do not obey Allah and His messenger, then obedience to me is not incumbent upon you. (Now prepare for prayer).

how would they put him straight if he has all the soldiers and armed police under his command - leaving only the criminals interested in looting with weapons?

- it wouldn't make any sense.

It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said:

A man came to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said:
O Messenger of Allaah, what do you think if a man comes wanting to take my property?
He said: “Do not give him your property.”
He said: What if he fights me?
He said: “Fight him.”
He said: What if he kills me?
He said: “Then you will be a martyr.”
He said: What if I kill him?
He said: “He will be in Hell.”
Narrated by Muslim (140).
 
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BUT i do believe curfews put into place.

:sl:

I think curfew should do the trick. The law in Malaysia is that curfew breakers can be shot on sight without prior warning. No idea if it's the same in Britain. Would be a good start to get things under control again.

However, this does not solve the problem in the long run. I have no statistics to support my theory but my personal viewpoint is that all this rampant rioting and looting had its genesis on the day caning was outlawed in Britain. When children are brought up without any fear of punishment for any wrongdoing and/or disobedience, it is not at all surprising that one day they will grow up thinking that they can do whatever they want to as long as they can get away with it.

In Islam, the way I learned it, wrong-doing and/or disobedience is always rewarded with punishment. Direct effective punishment and not the kind of wishy-washy namby-pamby sweet-talk that some parents are told to use when faced with a child who had stepped out of line. In Islam, justice must be done and seen to done. That's why, for example, executions, in Islam, are held in public.

If you are living in Britain and you really care about your once-great-and-glorious country, it would not hurt to have a closer look at how Islam nips the problem in the bud, so to say, or nips the problem in butt, as the case may be.

WaLLahu aklam.
 
:sl:

Gun control means hitting your target. ;D

Criminals are not going to care anyway about gun control laws, so what you'll end up having is Nazi Germany all over again: armed gangs of thugs terrorizing the general populace who are now unarmed because the government took their guns away. I am against gun control and gun registration for that reason.
 
:sl:

Gun control means hitting your target. ;D

Criminals are not going to care anyway about gun control laws, so what you'll end up having is Nazi Germany all over again: armed gangs of thugs terrorizing the general populace who are now unarmed because the government took their guns away. I am against gun control and gun registration for that reason.

Well, the fact that almost none of the rioters had any guns kind of proves that gun control can work.
 
Well, the fact that almost none of the rioters had any guns kind of proves that gun control can work.

really? if i was a rioter or looter - i'd think twice about walking into an armed premises - even if i was armed.
also - i've grown up in england and currently live in tottenham where all this started - only the thugs have guns - but they never need to use them because the people put their hands up anyway,

give a boy sitting on the wall £20 and say you'll have £500 waiting for him if he gets you a haf decent gun - i'd assume a couple of phone calls at the most.

don't ask the camp man at the lottery stand though - he'll have a heart attack!
 
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But the fact remains, almost none of the rioters had guns, or used guns in any way. Contrary to what gun rights proponents would have you believe, which is that criminals will have guns anyway regardless of the law.
 
most of the ones with guns sell drugs, they don't go to protests or steal trainers from jd, take it from someone who was part of that culture at one time
 
Greetings and peace be with you all,

We have no power to control protesters, only God can control them. We have enough trouble trying to control our own urges and sins, how can we control other people’s wrong doings?

Peace is a long term solution for my generation, my children and my grandchildren. Peace is always one day at a time.

Communities are starting to unite after the riots, they want to work together and clean up after the riots, they want to live in peace with each other.

We as individuals are either a part of the solution, or we are a part of the problem, striving towards a greater interfaith friendship will be a huge part of the solution.

In the spirit of praying for peace with justice for all people.

Eric
 
:sl:

Gun control means hitting your target. ;D

Criminals are not going to care anyway about gun control laws, so what you'll end up having is Nazi Germany all over again: armed gangs of thugs terrorizing the general populace who are now unarmed because the government took their guns away. I am against gun control and gun registration for that reason.

:wa:

I disagree with using guns unless under extreme circumstances.

I personally advocate gun control. The main problem with guns is that your killing an individual who is still technically innocent. I'm certain we all heard of "innocent until proven guilty". The people that were involved in the riots are still innocent and deserve a fair trial. You can only be a criminal if you have been convicted of a criminal offence and sentenced by a judge, though there are some exceptions. There are also situations where you might end up killing innocent civilians or damage property if you miss your target.

The police in the UK did manage to end the riots. It was unexpected which is why the government and the police were "slow" to react. I'm not sure guns would have brought an end to the riots.
 
What you're forgetting is that this was started by police who shot a man to death and lied about it, so what you seem to be saying is that a small minority who lead the country into deceitful wars and kill millions of innocent people- should have the guns, and the ones who get shot dead by them should walk around like sitting ducks?

Watch these through to the end,
Peace,



And watch demOlition man again if yu get a chance,
Peace
 
Greetings and peace be with you Ramadhan;

Salam Eric,

I never argued for guns being freely available to householders, and in fact, if I were a US citizen, I would have voted for gun control.
I don't know how you interpreted my statement that we are commanded to defend our properties when attacked into "guns made freely available to householders"

I am so sorry for misinterpreting your reply; I was reading your post number 55 in response to King of Nines saying, looters would be shot in the US.

I am pleased to hear to advocate gun control, please forgive my foolish mistake.

Blessings and peace be with you during your month of fasting.

Eric
 
I am so sorry for misinterpreting your reply; I was reading your post number 55 in response to King of Nines saying, looters would be shot in the US.

I am pleased to hear to advocate gun control, please forgive my foolish mistake.

Blessings and peace be with you during your month of fasting.

Eric

Salam Eric,

That's allright. It is easy to misinterpret things in a discussion forum.

May Allah SWT guide you to the straight path. ameen.
 
What you're forgetting is that this was started by police who shot a man to death and lied about it, so what you seem to be saying is that a small minority who lead the country into deceitful wars and kill millions of innocent people- should have the guns, and the ones who get shot dead by them should walk around like sitting ducks?

Watch these through to the end,
Peace,



And watch demOlition man again if yu get a chance,
Peace

was just reading today about abuse cases against Muslims in the U.S, with the worst being some hateful red-necker pulling a gun on a young hijabi Somalian woman and her two young children in a supermarket telling her that he has killed Muslims and plans to go on killing them. This really does boil my blood
 
Greetings and peace be with you all,

I believe the faith communities can be a part of the solution to riots and looting, they can offer a softer approach than the police.

I have been a street pastor for the last three and a half years, this involves wondering the streets from around 8.30 pm on a Friday night; and finishing around 3 am the following morning. We come into contact with drugs, gangs, troubled people, violence, fights and loads of good natured people. We are all volunteers, and we
do not go out to preach, but some people will ask us about God, and we do pray for people if asked.

We try and look for the good in all people, and it is difficult to see any good when there is anger and fighting. Recently we saw a dozen people start fighting about fifty metres down the road, it was just after the pubs had closed at 2 am. As we approached I saw one man punched in the face, he went straight down, I saw another man being kicked while he was on the floor, and a lady punched in the face.

I don’t know what we did, other than somehow get amongst the fight, it came to a stop, a few people ran off, by this time a number of onlookers had arrived, some were trying to stir up more trouble.

We stayed with this crowd for about twenty minutes, somehow we helped tempers to calm, and as people calmed down, we saw a nicer side to these people.

I am a mere youngster of 62, I was with two other ladies in their seventies, when we came across this incident. Being a pacifist means I have to do something, I can’t just talk about it.

We pray and put our trust in God

In the spirit of praying for peace in our communities

Eric
 
:sl:

Well, the gun control argument is one for another thread and another day. Bottom line, criminals will still be criminals no matter what weapons are used or not used. Human nature will always be imperfect. God is the only thing that is perfect.
 
As long as people got God Gold & Guns - they're free and independent

i was reading a post on infowars where a woman was stuck in traffic

on one side of her there was a car with a bumper sticker saying:
"Obama - change we can believe in"

on the other side there was a truck with a bumper sticker that said:
"You keep the change - i'll keep my guns and religion"

she was laughing all the way back home.

believe in it all you like - give him a nobel peace prize for doing nothing aswell.
the fact is that he's now running more wars than bush - and doing everything he can to arm rioters all around the world in countries which oppose zionist policy
and people voted him in because he claimed to be a man of peace who wouldn't let lobbyists run the show.
 
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As long as people got God Gold & Guns - they're free and independent

i was reading a post on infowars where a woman was stuck in traffic

on one side of her there was a car with a bumper sticker saying:
"Obama - change we can believe in"

on the other side there was a truck with a bumper sticker that said:
"You keep the change - i'll keep my guns and religion"

she was laughing all the way back home.

believe in it all you like - give him a nobel peace prize for doing nothing aswell.
the fact is that he's now running more wars than bush - and doing everything he can to arm rioters all around the world in countries which oppose zionist policy
and people voted him in because he claimed to be a man of peace who wouldn't let lobbyists run the show.

I remember also that there were fears that Obama would institute Sharia Law in the USA because "he's a Muslim". I admit I believed that myself once upon a time.

His actions have suggested otherwise. I am keeping a wary eye on this administration. I probably won't vote at all in the next election. I can't really stomach either party anymore...
 

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