Cops shoot groom dead

[zaria]

Lol, I think it's safe to say if the bachelors party was at a ... Strip Club... strippers were definately there!

No reason? Have you ever witnessed a real rumble? They involve alot of people!

Guns and Booze - It's always been a lethal combination.

Ninth Scribe

It was not at a strip club. It was at a regular club None the less, May Allah have mercy on him:shade:

 

[Woodrow]

Rest in peace and the bride to has the strength to have a life after his death

Its not supposed the cops to have a more strong temper, don't loose their head when they see drunk men in some car :? I could get lost but the cops should be more trained to deal with drunkers :-[

Drunkers are the most dangerous element a police officer has to deal with. A drunk is totaly unpredictable and virtualy immune to pain or logic. Most police training with a drunk is to incapacitate the drunk as fast as possible and then incarcerate him until he is sober enough to comprehend his surroundings.

A confrontation with a drunk is a loosing battle. No matter how beligerant the drunk is the cop is accused of being insensitive to the drunk.

Reality check. A person gets drunk and they should be fully responsible for their actions and words, even if those actions and words are the result of being drunk. The person willingly put themselves in that state and they are not free to justify their actions because of drunkeness.

That group of people was acting beligerant. They were talking about having guns. Their words and actions were definetly not cooperative and they did show intent to get away no matter who they hurt. Now, it was just alcohol talking and was not the real person. But, that is a result of getting drunk. If somebody says they have a gun, it is best to assume they are telling the truth.

the sadness is because of a stupid party many lives have been damaged. The young Bride to be, Parents, even the lives of the police officer's that shot. Now, they will be forced to live always wondering if they could have handled things different. Police officers are not trained to kill. the use of a weapon is the last resort. The majority of officers who ever use a weapon are so few that anytime one does, it will make national news. That only occurs a handfull of times each year. Most police officers will never take their weapon out of the holster except for the annual qualification marksman ship at the firing range.

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

It was not at a strip club. It was at a regular club None the less, May Allah have mercy on him:shade:

Referring to the opening post that was quoted as follows:

Cops shoot groom dead - Hurt 2 pals in barrage of bullets

By VERONIKA BELENKAYA, ALISON GENDAR, MIKE JACCARINO
and ROBERT F. MOORE
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS

Cops blasted 50 bullets at three unarmed men near a Queens strip club early yesterday, killing a groom hours before his wedding, wounding two of his pals and spurring outraged relatives of the victims to call the shooting unjustified.

 

[zaria]

Drunkers are the most dangerous element a police officer has to deal with. A drunk is totaly unpredictable and virtualy immune to pain or logic. Most police training with a drunk is to incapacitate the drunk as fast as possible and then incarcerate him until he is sober enough to comprehend his surroundings.

A confrontation with a drunk is a loosing battle. No matter how beligerant the drunk is the cop is accused of being insensitive to the drunk.

Reality check. A person gets drunk and they should be fully responsible for their actions and words, even if those actions and words are the result of being drunk. The person willingly put themselves in that state and they are not free to justify their actions because of drunkeness.

That group of people was acting beligerant. They were talking about having guns. Their words and actions were definetly not cooperative and they did show intent to get away no matter who they hurt. Now, it was just alcohol talking and was not the real person. But, that is a result of getting drunk. If somebody says they have a gun, it is best to assume they are telling the truth.

the sadness is because of a stupid party many lives have been damaged. The young Bride to be, Parents, even the lives of the police officer's that shot. Now, they will be forced to live always wondering if they could have handled things different. Police officers are not trained to kill. the use of a weapon is the last resort. The majority of officers who ever use a weapon are so few that anytime one does, it will make national news. That only occurs a handfull of times each year. Most police officers will never take their weapon out of the holster except for the annual qualification marksman ship at the firing range.

May be I'm not reading the same story because it seems like some of you feel that the cops reacted correctly. First they were in plain cloths in a club so if guy comes up to you inbeligerant way you have the right to defend yourself. Did those cops once they had any contact with the wedding party pull out their badge and say we are police officers???? Second, They got hot headed and reacted as if they were not police officers. They shot 50 times with no return fire. Even the Mayor of their city said the cops reacted in an unexcusable way.

 

[zaria]

Referring to the opening post that was quoted as follows:

Cops shoot groom dead - Hurt 2 pals in barrage of bullets

By VERONIKA BELENKAYA, ALISON GENDAR, MIKE JACCARINO
and ROBERT F. MOORE
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS

Cops blasted 50 bullets at three unarmed men near a Queens strip club early yesterday, killing a groom hours before his wedding, wounding two of his pals and spurring outraged relatives of the victims to call the shooting unjustified.

near a Queens strip club... Next to that strip club was a where they hold Cabaret's. So are you saying he should not have been there or this would not have haapend and it is fault because he was wrong for being the in the first place? If that is ot what your saying I apologize for thinking that.:shade:

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Drunkers are the most dangerous element a police officer has to deal with. A drunk is totaly unpredictable and virtualy immune to pain or logic.

Too true. One of the PSAs (public service announcements) on TV now shows an evening played backwards and says: Remember: You can't rewind the night.

Ninth Scribe

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

near a Queens strip club... Next to that strip club was a where they hold Cabaret's. So are you saying he should not have been there or this would not have haapend and it is fault because he was wrong for being the in the first place? If that is ot what your saying I apologize for thinking that.:shade:

Again, referring to the original post:

Bell, a former high school baseball phenom who had been celebrating his bachelor party at the strip club, was fatally hit by two shots to the neck and arm. Two of his friends in the car were rushed to a nearby hospital with bullet wounds, police said.

Also:

An undercover detective, three plainclothes detectives and a police officer in civilian clothes hit Bell's car with 21 rounds about 4 a.m. after the Queens man twice rammed his vehicle into an unmarked NYPD van, police said.

 

[zaria]

Bell, a former high school baseball phenom who had been celebrating his bachelor party at the strip club, was fatally hit by two shots to the neck and arm. Two of his friends in the car were rushed to a nearby hospital with bullet wounds, police said.

Also:

An undercover detective, three plainclothes detectives and a police officer in civilian clothes hit Bell's car with 21 rounds about 4 a.m. after the Queens man twice rammed his vehicle into an unmarked NYPD van, police said.

okay, you have proven they were at a strip club:bravo: But still are you saying that the cops reacted justly??????That is the point I am trying to understand.

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

okay, you have proven they were at a strip club:bravo: But still are you saying that the cops reacted justly??????That is the point I am trying to understand.

Well, let's see. There were 20 in Bell's party, a fight broke out, and one car rammed the cops van, twice and they heard another say, I got my gun.

Now, let's assume for a minute that they weren't taking on cops. Pull those cops out of the picture and put any other group in their place. It still would have been a shoot-out. Only, they would have written it off as gang violence. Whose to blame? The idiot that shot his mouth off about having a gun. That's what caused the shoot-out.

Ninth Scribe

 

[zaria]

Well, let's see. There were 20 in Bell's party, a fight broke out, and one car rammed the cops van, twice and they heard another say, I got my gun.

Now, let's assume for a minute that they weren't taking on cops. Pull those cops out of the picture and put any other group in their place. It still would have been a shoot-out. Only, they would have written it off as gang violence. Whose to blame? The idiot that shot his mouth off about having a gun. That's what caused the shoot-out.

Ninth Scribe

You can't take the cops out of the picture because that is the issue. The cops being trained for their position.Unless they saw someone reacing as if they had a gun, no reason to shoot fifty times. Shoot one time in the air to get the cilvian attention than if it the cilivian shoot back than you take full force of the situation. THE COPS ACTING IRESPONSIBLE AND UNEXCUSABLE. BOTTOM LINE. And who's to say the guys said I got a gun. The cops coould be saying that because thay know they were wrong. And now and days, Most people don't say I got a gun they just statr shooting unfornatley.You can respond but I wont respond backkay: Still got love for you though:happy: Got other threads to look at.

 

[Woodrow]

May be I'm not reading the same story because it seems like some of you feel that the cops reacted correctly. First they were in plain cloths in a club so if guy comes up to you inbeligerant way you have the right to defend yourself. Did those cops once they had any contact with the wedding party pull out their badge and say we are police officers???? Second, They got hot headed and reacted as if they were not police officers. They shot 50 times with no return fire. Even the Mayor of their city said the cops reacted in an unexcusable way.

Going back to the original post:

Bell was at the strip club with about 20 friends, police sources said. Two undercover cops, looking to make prostitution arrests, were also inside.

About 3 a.m., one of the undercover cops heard a bouncer suggest to a dancer that he had a gun, and the cops went outside to warn plainclothes officers in a nearby van, the sources said.

An hour later, a fight erupted outside the club. Bell, Joseph Guzman and Trent Benefield were allegedly among eight men yelling at another man, Kelly said.

One of the undercover cops heard Bell shout, "Let's f--- him up," and Guzman say, "Yo - go get my gun," Kelly said.

"It's getting hot on Liverpool, for real. I think there's a gun," an undercover warned his lieutenant, Kelly said.

One undercover stayed at the club and the other followed the men as they got into Bell's car on Liverpool St. Bell drove forward, brushing that officer before slamming into the unmarked police van as it rounded the corner, Kelly said. The undercover officer then identified himself as a cop and fired the first round, sources said.

Bell threw the car into reverse and slammed into a building, then drove forward into the van again. Plainclothes cops poured from the van. Five officers at the scene began shooting.

Now for your other point:

shot 50 times with no return fire

Yes that does seem like a lot of shooting. But with 5 officers that is really not that much. I know most cops in the US carry 9-mm Glocks with 10 round magazines. It takes about 3 seconds to empty a magazines in rapid fire. If a person has reason to feel threatened, they are going to fire rapidly. So the actually shooting most likely occured in a time frame of 3 to 10 seconds.

Story might sound different if it had read that the police fired for 3 seconds at the vehicle, instead of saying 50 rounds were fired.

Yes, I agree with the mayor that the police did react in an unexcusable manner. I would place the blame for that on poor training rather than the actions of the individual cops. My suspicion is this was the first time any of those 5 police officers were involved in actually using their weapons on duty. Most Cities usually team up inexperienced police officers with experienced ones, sounds like all 5 were inexperienced.

 

[zaria]

Going back to the original post:

Bell was at the strip club with about 20 friends, police sources said. Two undercover cops, looking to make prostitution arrests, were also inside.

About 3 a.m., one of the undercover cops heard a bouncer suggest to a dancer that he had a gun, and the cops went outside to warn plainclothes officers in a nearby van, the sources said.

An hour later, a fight erupted outside the club. Bell, Joseph Guzman and Trent Benefield were allegedly among eight men yelling at another man, Kelly said.

One of the undercover cops heard Bell shout, "Let's f--- him up," and Guzman say, "Yo - go get my gun," Kelly said.

"It's getting hot on Liverpool, for real. I think there's a gun," an undercover warned his lieutenant, Kelly said.

One undercover stayed at the club and the other followed the men as they got into Bell's car on Liverpool St. Bell drove forward, brushing that officer before slamming into the unmarked police van as it rounded the corner, Kelly said. The undercover officer then identified himself as a cop and fired the first round, sources said.

Bell threw the car into reverse and slammed into a building, then drove forward into the van again. Plainclothes cops poured from the van. Five officers at the scene began shooting.

Now for your other point:



Yes that does seem like a lot of shooting. But with 5 officers that is really not that much. I know most cops in the US carry 9-mm Glocks with 10 round magazines. It takes about 3 seconds to empty a magazines in rapid fire. If a person has reason to feel threatened, they are going to fire rapidly. So the actually shooting most likely occured in a time frame of 3 to 10 seconds.

Story might sound different if it had read that the police fired for 3 seconds at the vehicle, instead of saying 50 rounds were fired.

Yes, I agree with the mayor that the police did react in an unexcusable manner. I would place the blame for that on poor training rather than the actions of the individual cops. My suspicion is this was the first time any of those 5 police officers were involved in actually using their weapons on duty. Most Cities usually team up inexperienced police officers with experienced ones, sounds like all 5 were inexperienced.

Fornately there is 3 sides to a story, the cops side, the party guys and the truth. Unfornately the truth would be hard to come about.

 

[Woodrow]

Fornately there is 3 sides to a story, the cops side, the party guys and the truth. Unfornately the truth would be hard to come about.

The real truth is we will never know the truth. Each person, who was involved, has a different viewpoint as to what was happening. Each witness saw something different.

all that can be done is to try to reconstruct the event and then find what are the most probable scenarios, I used the plural form deliberatly. I doubt if there is any one best scenario.

 

[zaria]

The real truth is we will never know the truth. Each person, who was involved, has a different viewpoint as to what was happening. Each witness saw something different.

all that can be done is to try to reconstruct the event and then find what are the most probable scenarios, I used the plural form deliberatly. I doubt if there is any one best scenario.

Agree..
As Salaamu Alkaikum

 

[Tania]

Because they ruined two families life and happiness on this earth, i think the next step would be to train again the whole police section. Here the police are trained to shoot in legs, if the man try to run.3 times in the air and after that in legs. If he has a car and try to drive away, they have the permission to shoot the wheels.

I believe them when they says different versions after the shocking action at which they took part. Its hard to remember when your happy friend died under your eyes without to do anything to save him. It was after all a wedding custom :-[ (here we don't have this custom)

 

[Keltoi]

Because they ruined two families life and happiness on this earth, i think the next step would be to train again the whole police section. Here the police are trained to shoot in legs, if the man try to run.3 times in the air and after that in legs. If he has a car and try to drive away, they have the permission to shoot the wheels.

I believe them when they says different versions after the shocking action at which they took part. Its hard to remember when your happy friend died under your eyes without to do anything to save him. It was after all a wedding custom :-[ (here we don't have this custom)

I'm not sure where you're from, but the violence police have to face in the U.S. doesn't leave much room for worrying about leg shots and the like very often. When many street criminals have semi-automatic weapons it isn't logical for a cop to be looking for leg wounds. That being said, these individuals were unarmed. None of use know the whole story just yet, but I'm sure when the grand jury investigation is over we will have a good idea what happened.

 

[Woodrow]

Because they ruined two families life and happiness on this earth, i think the next step would be to train again the whole police section. Here the police are trained to shoot in legs, if the man try to run.3 times in the air and after that in legs. If he has a car and try to drive away, they have the permission to shoot the wheels.

I believe them when they says different versions after the shocking action at which they took part. Its hard to remember when your happy friend died under your eyes without to do anything to save him. It was after all a wedding custom :-[ (here we don't have this custom)

Here the police are trained to shoot in legs, if the man try to run.3 times in the air and after that in legs.

That is a very dangerous thing for police to be trained to do. Especialy in a city. Bullets shot up into the air come back down just as fast as they went up and will kill innocent bystanders far from the scene if they get hit. Also the problem with trying to shoot for the legs. Outside of the difficulty in hitting a moving target in the legs, is the probability the bullet will pass through and hit bystanders.

 

[Tania]

Its not too often used this methods, i never heard shootings. I will try to find the police site to see how its the warning exactly :-[ i know they must yell to stop, we are shooting and after that they shoot in the air or at legs.

In the last 20 years i know 5 cases where i heard about shootings and involved foreign citizens too. The police was involved in 1.
I will search for the info :-[

 

[Woodrow]

Keltoi brought up a very good point. Here the criminal elemant quite often has much more fire-power than the police. at the moment the weapon of choice for gang members is the UZI with a 50 round magazine and capable of firing over 500 shots a minute.Yes, they are illegal, which explains why only the criminals have them. a police officer responding to a call of possible firearm involvement is most likely to meet up with somebody carrying an UZI. You also have to be aware that our criminals usualy use the so called "Cop Killer" ammunition such as black talons and teflon bullets that are capbale of penetrating bullet proof vests.

A police officer only has a matter of seconds to act and any delay can cost the lives of the police officer and/or any bystanders. We have many more police officers killed each year by criminals then we have people killed by police officers.

Going back to the original story. I do not know if the police acted properly. I do know that since an innocent person was killed there will be a question as to if they did.

Looking at the story. We know there were at least 20 drunk people involved. There was talk of at least one of them having a gun. There were only 2 police officers inside the club. Now, to react to that in a matter of seconds does leave a very wide door open for mistakes. We are told that a police officer did identify himself as a police officer to the vehicle driver and did fire a shot at the vehicle. But, the driver continued to ram the police van and did not stop.

There was a fight involving the people. There was a drunk person ramming the police van with his vehicle.

Kind of a hard thing to react instantly to, without believing that the driver intended to harm people.

 

[Woodrow]

I should also point out that here in the US public intoxication is illegal. So the man was already committing a crime, if he was drunk and was subject to arrest, the moment he came out of the club and was on public property.