Culture more dominant in a persons life than thier religion

[nennar]

salaam alaikum!

its easy for me to see that you dont even take your time to learn about islam

 

[HeiGou]

Culture is what causes some parents to object to their kid marrying someone else, you seem to claim that 'the cultureu wouldnt dictate that if it wasnt that Islam had some hand behind that'... if that's the case.. why does Islam give full right to the kid to get soemone else to sort out theri case if their parents rely on cultural arguments?

Exactly how does Islam allow children to get someone else to handle their case if their parents rely on cultural arguments? I assume that Islam accepts that not all parents will be pious and so provides an escape, but what if the parent is smart enough to phrase their decision in Islamic terms?

now if we apply that to arranged marriages.. the hadith clearly says that the amrriage is void, the marriage is void, the marriage is void (3 times) if the girl's permission isn't saught.. int he case of the virgin, her quietness is a sign of her acceptance.. becasue taht was teh custom.

Void is not the same as annulled. The quietness is backed by Hadith isn't it? So it is more than custom, it is Islamic law no? The question remains - if a child is born from such a marriage is it illegitimate? Surely the marriage is a valid marriage between the time it takes place and the girl gets it voided?

However if she keeps quiet even when teh whole process is taking place, then that's foolish of her if she doesn't speak up or atleast doesn't show some unhapiness on her face! Nothing to do with Islam imposing the marriage on her!

I am not saying that Islam imposes a marriage on her. I am saying it provides a loophole that people can use to get what they want. Foolish? If a Father says to a nine year old girl "if you say a word I'll beat you until you can't walk" and she is terrified that is foolishness? So what if she shows unhappiness on her face - does that prohibit a marriage?

As for your last part.. if a father kills his daughter because seh wants to marry someone then it's the father who gets sinned, he might not be punished in this world becaue of the political situation today, but he will be punished in the hereafter!

He may, but can he get away with it in this world? Holding out threats of punishment in the next world does not stop this because the sort of men who do it are those who don't care enough about the next world anyway, or are so sure they are right they don't think they will be punished in the next world. But let's just say instead of killing her, he beats her until she is cripplied for life.

The girl has full right to get married, and so does the boy. Checkout the thread abotu whether the girl needing a wali for marriage and there's i think enough fatwa backed by evidence to show that she doesn't need her parents permission if she's got Islamically valid reasons for wanting to marry a certain individual... same goes for the boy.

Actually I thought that thread showed that she does need her parents' permission. Can't a Father simply order his child to be divorced anyway?

I'm offended you attributed that to Islam!! ffended

I am sorry you're offended, but I don't think I am attributing that to Islam. It is just that I think Islam shapes custom and custom shapes the way people see Islam. Different claim.

 

[lolwatever]

Exactly how does Islam allow children to get someone else to handle their case if their parents rely on cultural arguments? I assume that Islam accepts that not all parents will be pious and so provides an escape, but what if the parent is smart enough to phrase their decision in Islamic terms?

Luckily in Islam the kid has the chance to validate and check whether his parents reasons are indeed Islamic or not. Some parents rant that 'loving ur country is half of your faith', the kid can either blind follow, or he can go and check for himself whether that hadith is authentic or a load of....

Void is not the same as annulled. The quietness is backed by Hadith isn't it? So it is more than custom, it is Islamic law no? The question remains - if a child is born from such a marriage is it illegitimate? Surely the marriage is a valid marriage between the time it takes place and the girl gets it voided?

Ok i'll say it's an Islamic law, if she's quiet and seems unhappy then that's evidence enough of her rejection, that's assumed understanding, if you take it literally that's your problem. And between her quietness and the marriage is a period of time, as short or as long as it may be, if she's letting the current take her wherever ti pleases, then who is to blame? The parents are following the Islamic law, she knows it's her right to say no or show some sign of unhapiness or tell her friend to tell her parents or something, i think its naive to think what you said.

Hence the second part of the question 'if a kid is born', is actually very irrelevent. One thing though, the marriage is actually anulled if she choses that to be the case. The girl actually has the right to cancel the marriage and leave if she was coerced into it. But if she was quiet all the way through, i think that's foolishness and she wasnt coerced into anything. And i don't think any such girl is as naiive as u make it sound!

I am not saying that Islam imposes a marriage on her. I am saying it provides a loophole that people can use to get what they want. Foolish? If a Father says to a nine year old girl "if you say a word I'll beat you until you can't walk" and she is terrified that is foolishness? So what if she shows unhappiness on her face - does that prohibit a marriage?

If a father does say that, she's got every right to run to a qadhi or someone or state organisation in authority to take care of her. And the father will be rehabilitated accordingly. Today that right is snatcehd from Muslim because there is no such facility or reliable authority to lean onto.

If she shows unhapiness on her face it does prohibit the marriage.. read any book of fiqh and they go on for ever about ways a girl can reject, most of them are not necessarily because she said anything.

He may, but can he get away with it in this world? Holding out threats of punishment in the next world does not stop this because the sort of men who do it are those who don't care enough about the next world anyway, or are so sure they are right they don't think they will be punished in the next world. But let's just say instead of killing her, he beats her until she is cripplied for life.

It's nto a matter of whether he believes or doesn't believe in teh hereafter. It's abotu whether or not he will be brought to justice, we know for fact he will. And we're not saying 'let him do wat he pleases allah will sort him out'.. in an Islamic state he'll be dealt with very severely for being an irresponsible father... but where is the Islamic state today?

Actually I thought that thread showed that she does need her parents' permission. Can't a Father simply order his child to be divorced anyway?

It's nothing to do with permission, its about her needing a guardian to manage the affair, not to decide for her. The only 'yes' or 'no' the parents can use is as far as the suitability of the brother who proposes ISLAMICALLY. So if a theif proposes to her and they say no, then that's when permission kicks in. otherwise, the parents are suppose to listen and obey and be happy as long as the brother is islamically compatable.. that thread explains in more detail..

I am sorry you're offended, but I don't think I am attributing that to Islam. It is just that I think Islam shapes custom and custom shapes the way people see Islam. Different claim.

It's simple.. islam has nothing worng with customs as long as they're not against Islamic teachings. the rest is to be thrown in the tip.

 

[HeiGou]

Exactly how does Islam allow children to get someone else to handle their case if their parents rely on cultural arguments? I assume that Islam accepts that not all parents will be pious and so provides an escape, but what if the parent is smart enough to phrase their decision in Islamic terms?

Luckily in Islam the kid has the chance to validate and check whether his parents reasons are indeed Islamic or not. Some parents rant that 'loving ur country is half of your faith', the kid can either blind follow, or he can go and check for himself whether that hadith is authentic or a load of....

But that is not the issue. Suppose a parent says "I am marrying you to X because he is a pious Muslim" but daughter Y does not like X nor wants to marry him. What can she do?

Void is not the same as annulled. The quietness is backed by Hadith isn't it? So it is more than custom, it is Islamic law no? The question remains - if a child is born from such a marriage is it illegitimate? Surely the marriage is a valid marriage between the time it takes place and the girl gets it voided?

Ok i'll say it's an Islamic law, if she's quiet and seems unhappy then that's evidence enough of her rejection, that's assumed understanding, if you take it literally that's your problem. And between her quietness and the marriage is a period of time, as short or as long as it may be, if she's letting the current take her wherever ti pleases, then who is to blame? The parents are following the Islamic law, she knows it's her right to say no or show some sign of unhapiness or tell her friend to tell her parents or something, i think its naive to think what you said.

Where is the evidence that it is enough if she just seems unhappy? Either way it is not my problem because I am not faced by the issues of Islamic marriages. The question is whether parents can use these rules to get what they want whether it is Islamic or not. She gets married, she is taken against her will to her husband's home, she is not allowed out, she is beaten, and you are saying it is her fault? I also assume you are now agreeing that for that period of time it is a valid legal marriage? We are talking about 12 year old girls from cultures where honour killings and beatings are not exactly unknown. Just how does a 12 year old argue with her father about what she really wants? If fathers listened to that my nieces would have chocolate ice cream for dinner every night!

Hence the second part of the question 'if a kid is born', is actually very irrelevent.

No it is not. It is at the heart of the issue. If a child is born then surely either a marriage existed or adultery took place. Which is it?

I am not saying that Islam imposes a marriage on her. I am saying it provides a loophole that people can use to get what they want. Foolish? If a Father says to a nine year old girl "if you say a word I'll beat you until you can't walk" and she is terrified that is foolishness? So what if she shows unhappiness on her face - does that prohibit a marriage?

If a father does say that, she's got every right to run to a qadhi or someone or state organisation in authority to take care of her. And the father will be rehabilitated accordingly. Today that right is snatcehd from Muslim because there is no such facility or reliable authority to lean onto.

At 12? Just how does a 12 year old fight with her Father in this way? What makes you think that the qadi or any state authority would side with her? This is culture remember - a lot of qadis share that culture. Are we agreed that a Father can say to his daughter that he will beat her if she does not go through with the wedding and there is nothing in the law that says he cannot?

If she shows unhapiness on her face it does prohibit the marriage.. read any book of fiqh and they go on for ever about ways a girl can reject, most of them are not necessarily because she said anything.

Can you give me a reference to one?

He may, but can he get away with it in this world? Holding out threats of punishment in the next world does not stop this because the sort of men who do it are those who don't care enough about the next world anyway, or are so sure they are right they don't think they will be punished in the next world. But let's just say instead of killing her, he beats her until she is cripplied for life.

It's nto a matter of whether he believes or doesn't believe in teh hereafter. It's abotu whether or not he will be brought to justice, we know for fact he will. And we're not saying 'let him do wat he pleases allah will sort him out'.. in an Islamic state he'll be dealt with very severely for being an irresponsible father... but where is the Islamic state today?

The idea that he may be brought to justice in the next life is unlikely to be a big comfort to many. What is the evidence that he would be brought to justice in a proper Islamic state? Where are the judicial decisions that would support that claim?

I am sorry you're offended, but I don't think I am attributing that to Islam. It is just that I think Islam shapes custom and custom shapes the way people see Islam. Different claim.

It's simple.. islam has nothing worng with customs as long as they're not against Islamic teachings. the rest is to be thrown in the tip.

True and so what is the problem with Arranged marriages? Surely they are acceptable as long as they don't go too far into being Forced and they can go a long way into being Forced and still be acceptable.

 

[KAding]

^^ Omg u couldn't hav said it better, man may Allah curse the notion of culture it's soooooooo sickening and annoying and irritating.

nothing wrong with CUSTOMS, but i hate CULTURE.

even the prophet said that will be one thing that will remain from jahiliyyah with his ummah.. disgusting

salams

I don't think you hate culture . Islam is very much part of most Muslim countries culture, so saying you hate the culture makes no sense. You only hate 'culture' that is not Islamic.

It's the same confusion that arrises (with me anyhow) when Muslims say they dislike nationalism, that it is haram. They don't dislike nationalism, they only 'hate' it as long as it is not Islamic nationalism. Islam is highly nationalistic.

 

[lolwatever]

But that is not the issue. Suppose a parent says "I am marrying you to X because he is a pious Muslim" but daughter Y does not like X nor wants to marry him. What can she do?

She can reject if she wants, and the hadith of khansa that bro ansar mentioned in the first page clearly shows that. What i'm saying is, as long as the brother is religious, the parents can't say NO. But she can.

Where is the evidence that it is enough if she just seems unhappy? Either way it is not my problem because I am not faced by the issues of Islamic marriages. The question is whether parents can use these rules to get what they want whether it is Islamic or not. She gets married, she is taken against her will to her husband's home, she is not allowed out, she is beaten, and you are saying it is her fault? I also assume you are now agreeing that for that period of time it is a valid legal marriage? We are talking about 12 year old girls from cultures where honour killings and beatings are not exactly unknown. Just how does a 12 year old argue with her father about what she really wants? If fathers listened to that my nieces would have chocolate ice cream for dinner every night!

And that's the point of this thread, Culture is unforuntaely more dominant in a person's life thant heir religion. So it's culture that causes all what you mentioned, Islam is clearly against it. If the parent is threatening her to get beaten, if that's not beign coerced, then what is?!? same goes if the parents are terrorizing her or forcing her to marry someone just becasue he is religious without HER permission.

No it is not. It is at the heart of the issue. If a child is born then surely either a marriage existed or adultery took place. Which is it?

If you told somoene to sign a document where they ought to give you 1000 euros in cash, and they signed it and kept quiet about it. And they didn't show any sign of unhapiness or unease, that definately is foolishness on part of the person who kept quiet and he definately was not coerced. He was just being stupid. Same applies to a girl who is willing to let an entire engagement period or marriage process go on and she's quiet about it!! In that case, the kid born is definately not born is not considered to be one from adultery.

That's as far as that rare case is concerned. But as i said, in a non culture based family, the girl has no obligations whatsoever to choose whatever her parents impose on her. I repeat, in a non culture based environment.. if the family has the cultural mentality, that's their problem, not Islam's.

At 12? Just how does a 12 year old fight with her Father in this way? What makes you think that the qadi or any state authority would side with her? This is culture remember - a lot of qadis share that culture. Are we agreed that a Father can say to his daughter that he will beat her if she does not go through with the wedding and there is nothing in the law that says he cannot?


Huh wat do you mean? Just because she's 12 doesnt mean she doesn't have a right to accept or reject. Erm the erason why i was saying you don't find that facility and luxury today is because the qadhi's and states are crooks instead of proper Islamic based organisations... hence why i said "Today that right is snatcehd from Muslim because there is no such facility or reliable authority to lean onto."

Can you give me a reference to one?

"Parents forcing their daughter into marriage"
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=4602&dgn=4
"She was forced to marry someone she did not want"
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=47439&dgn=4

as for the ways of rejecting, ill lookup for transaltions of fiqh books, i'm not conviniently trying to by pass it.. there really barely are any fiqh books online! i will get back to you on that though whether i do or do not find.

The idea that he may be brought to justice in the next life is unlikely to be a big comfort to many. What is the evidence that he would be brought to justice in a proper Islamic state? Where are the judicial decisions that would support that claim?

The Above two articles show that was the case way back in the time of the prophet which is the best example of judicial execution of that ruling, as well as in the time of the four imams (abu hanifah et al) and in any era where it was Islam and not culture that was implemented.

True and so what is the problem with Arranged marriages? Surely they are acceptable as long as they don't go too far into being Forced and they can go a long way into being Forced and still be acceptable.

You're implying there that they can go 'to a small extent' in forcing the kids, and that's also not true, the links i posted above show that. If you mean arranged marriage to be the one where teh parents find some person for their son/daughter, and then offer that person to their kids, as long as the son/daughter is happy with it then its fine.. otherwise its void and can be anulled by the kid.

 

[lolwatever]

I don't think you hate culture . Islam is very much part of most Muslim countries culture, so saying you hate the culture makes no sense. You only hate 'culture' that is not Islamic..

Yep you're right i was wrong, thanks for that clarification .

It's the same confusion that arrises (with me anyhow) when Muslims say they dislike nationalism, that it is haram. They don't dislike nationalism, they only 'hate' it as long as it is not Islamic nationalism. Islam is highly nationalistic

lol that's very not true, how so? The prophet got really upset when he saw the aws and khazraj (two tribes in madinah) about to fight over something silly and he said 'are you fighting already when i'm still amonsgt u? verily the one remaining thing that shall stay in my ummah from ignorance is tribalism"

and there's a hadith that says 'leave nationalism, for it is smelly'.

take care all the best

 

[searchingsoul]

^^ i dont understand dude..

Maybe it's hard to define a 2006 christian, but it's straight forward to define a Muslim really... someone who accepts there is no diety worthy of worhsip but Allah adn Muhammad is his final messenger.. and that entails following whatever Allah has ordered and leaving whatever we where commanded to abstain from...

Actually there are MANY differences in Muslim thought. Diversity doesn't belong to Christianity alone.

 

[GARY]

^^ i dont understand dude..

Maybe it's hard to define a 2006 christian, but it's straight forward to define a Muslim really... someone who accepts there is no diety worthy of worhsip but Allah adn Muhammad is his final messenger.. and that entails following whatever Allah has ordered and leaving whatever we where commanded to abstain from...

That is a pretty broad ranging description of what a muslim is, and certainly does not make apparent the diversity in the muslim community.
When this same type of broad discription is applied to christianity, which you have used in comparison, the same could be said for that religion.
For example; "It's straight forward to define a christian really... someone who accepts that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and that salvation is possible only through him." Now, we know that generally speaking this describes christians, but there is much diversity and the definition is a little more difficult at times.
The same can be said for muslims.

 

[lolwatever]

^^ Heya searchingsoul n gary

I disagree, the protestants and catholics seem to have fundamental differences. I'm sure it turns out that one of them will be closer to what original teachings of jesus where.. (or maybe not.. i dont know). But whether or not a "true christian" can be defiend wasn't my point.

But what's important is, you've got this ocean of ideologies and sects and all these mind-boggling theories that engulf Islam and Muslims, and.. drowns alot of Muslims in them too.

But if you just pretend for a minute that none of that exists.. and you pickup the two fundamental sources, Quran and Hadith, it doesn't take much of a brain to figure out what Islam is about and its point.

And really.. if anyone takes a serious read into other sects or culture based religion or whatever its called... most of them don't even try to base their views on anythign that's remotely to do with Hadith or Quran.. and i'm pretty serious.. And the prophet made it clear.. Muslims will split up into 73 sects, all of them in hell except one... and in the other hadith, he made it clear which will endup in Jannah.. the ones that stick to the sources.


so it's that "club" that i was talking about, the ones who stick to the basics. It's not hard to define a a proper Muslim like that

tc all the best

ps: heigou, there's actually not a single fiqh book i found online, i'm still searching and ill get bak 2u as soon as i find.