David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions

['Abdullah]

“ true believers “
Who decides who is a true believer and who is not ?

This is what Quran defines. Why Quran, because that is the living miracle you and I can witness. Every Prophet came with some miracles which were proof that they are messengers sent from God. Prophet Muhammad PBUH came with several miracles and the greatest of that is Quran because it is living miracle. I have discussed this in one of my posts in more details, which is unfortunately still pending administrators review. In summary what it says that Quran is preserved which is a true miracle within itself. There are many established scientific facts which are stated in Quran 1400 years ago and that is only possible if this book is from God almighty.

How do you know Quran is preserved? Let's not go into history of how Quran was written down because I can prove that without going into lengthy debate on that. Quran has been memorized by thousands and millions in every generation. Even today there are more than million people who have memorized Quran letter by letter. Majority of them are those whose first language is not even Arabic (another miracle). Now if for some reason all religious books are burnt and nothing survives, the only book which can be brought back word by word is Quran because so many memorizers of Quran. This also makes it impossible to make any change in the Quran.

My morality is based on rational thought , I’m s secular humanist , I would imagine we share much of the same morality
I think it’s wrong to steal , cheat, lie, murder, etc
I think it’s wrong because I recognise the harm it’s does to other people , and to my own self esteem.

Do you think it’s wrong because it has been decreed by a god ?

What if that god had said those things were not wrong ... would you then rob, cheat , murder ?
Like it or not , you decide what is moral and what is not

You mentioned self esteem and you do good based on your conscious. I mentioned this in one of my previous posts that your conscience is a proof that God exists. God has built in a safety system within us to differentiate between right and wrong. This raises two important questions.
1. Do you always listen to your conscience?
2. There are something which comes very naturally to human beings like love for mother, doing good and refrain from bad things. Islam is also very natural, that's why it attracts to those who are sincerely looking for truth. By the way, believe in God is also natural. Islam tells us that Allah created all souls at one time before the creation of our human bodies. He asked all souls who is your LORD and all souls said Allah is our LORD. Do I and you remember this? I don't, and I am sure you don't either. Why because this life is a test and if everyone remembers that promise then everyone will be a believer. Do you and I remember everything in the womb of our mothers? I don't but I know we were there. This is why when your life is in extreme danger (let's say you have big earth quake) even atheists call out for God to save them. It is a fact and you can deny it if you like but that does not change the fact.

 

[Ahmed.]

My atheism is not dependent on either theory.

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR][TD]https://www.evolutiondeceit.com/
...[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

Oops sorry I liked your post by mistake: Don't want people to get wrong impression now that I'm supporting athiesm.

If it is not ev3n based on the evolution theory then this is even more foolhardy my friend, because it's one thing to be fooled and duped by lying scientists and another to deny the basic logic and common sense of our intellect that tells us this magnificent creation had to have a Creator. So what excuse will you have before God if He asks you why you d3nied Him?

 

[chalks75]

Oops sorry I liked your post by mistake: Don't want people to get wrong impression now that I'm supporting athiesm.

If it is not ev3n based on the evolution theory then this is even more foolhardy my friend, because it's one thing to be fooled and duped by lying scientists and another to deny the basic logic and common sense of our intellect that tells us this magnificent creation had to have a Creator. So what excuse will you have before God if He asks you why you d3nied Him?

I was an atheist before I heard of the theory of evolution , or the Big Bang.

I’m an atheist because when people first started telling me about there being a god ,I didn’t believe them , I didn’t believe the stories surrounding the god, and as I got older I realised cultures all over the world , for the entire recorded history of mankind , people have been making up these kinds of stories.
There have always been people convinced these stories are true.

What’s the difference between you being convinced your god is real
&
An ancient Grecian being convinced Zeus is real
Or
A Hindu being convinced Vishnu is real
Or a Christian being convinced Jesus was god.

Being convinced something is true , does not make it true.
Considering mans propensity for inventing gods and religions , I would be very dubious of believing any ...or claiming that you know it’s true for a fact

 

[chalks75]

I was an atheist before I heard of the theory of evolution , or the Big Bang.

I’m an atheist because when people first started telling me about there being a god ,I didn’t believe them , I didn’t believe the stories surrounding the god, and as I got older I realised cultures all over the world , for the entire recorded history of mankind , people have been making up these kinds of stories.
There have always been people convinced these stories are true.

What’s the difference between you being convinced your god is real
&
An ancient Grecian being convinced Zeus is real
Or
A Hindu being convinced Vishnu is real
Or a Christian being convinced Jesus was god.

Being convinced something is true , does not make it true.
Considering mans propensity for inventing gods and religions , I would be very dubious of believing any ...or claiming that you know it’s true for a fact

( you may not support atheism , but I hope at least you understand it a little more)[emoji3]

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Good talk, like to share

Blurb

Are we seeing the end of the new atheism associated with the likes of Richard Dawkins? If so, what will that mean for our conception of ourselves, and could it lead to progress in science and human knowledge.

Rebellious scientist Rupert Sheldrake has been a thorn in the side of the materialist scientific worldview for decades and has seen a shift over the last few years.

 

[chalks75]

Salaam

Good talk, like to share

Blurb

Are we seeing the end of the new atheism associated with the likes of Richard Dawkins? If so, what will that mean for our conception of ourselves, and could it lead to progress in science and human knowledge.

Rebellious scientist Rupert Sheldrake has been a thorn in the side of the materialist scientific worldview for decades, and has seen a shift over the last few years.

Atheism is the second fastest growing demographic in America and Europe , after Islam ... which is good for us , but bad for you .

 

[Zafran]

Atheism is the second fastest growing demographic in America and Europe , after Islam ... which is good for us , but bad for you .

Christianity and Islam are rising faster then any other religion (universally) - Atheism universally is going to have a smaller share much smaller

Which religions are growing, and where?
Advertisement

The short answer is religion is on the wane in western Europe and North America, and it’s growing everywhere else.

The median age of the global population is 28. Two religions have a median age below that: Muslims (23) and Hindus (26). Other main religions have an older median age: Christians, 30; Buddhists, 34 and Jews, 36. The religiously unaffiliated come in at 34.

Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world – more than twice as fast as the overall global population. Between 2015 and 2060, the world’s inhabitants are expected to increase by 32%, but the Muslim population is forecast to grow by 70%. And even though Christians will also outgrow the general population over that period, with an increase of 34% forecast mainly thanks to population growth in sub-Saharan Africa, Christianity is likely to lose its top spot in the world religion league table to Islam by the middle of this century.

Hindus are set to grow by 27%, and Jews by 15% mainly because of the high birth rate among the ultra-Orthodox. The religiously unaffiliated will see a 3% increase. But proportionately, these religious groupings will be smaller than now because their growth is lower than the increase in the overall global population. And Buddhists are forecast to see a 7% drop in their numbers.

ps - the religiously unaffiliated doesn't mean atheists only.
source
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/27/religion-why-is-faith-growing-and-what-happens-next

 

[keiv]

Atheism is the second fastest growing demographic in America and Europe , after Islam ... which is good for us , but bad for you .

How so?

 

['Abdullah]

Atheism is the second fastest growing demographic in America and Europe , after Islam ... which is good for us , but bad for you .

I have not looked into statistics for your claim but you may be right. If you are then it is because most people in West are born Christians and when they grow up, they start seeing many contradictions in Bible. As a result many are leaving Christianity and becoming agnostic or atheist.

Western media portraits islam as evil and I know for a fact that if anyone is looking for the truth, they look into Islam as the last resort. This is why currently we may have more atheists in the West but Islam will eventually be the largest religion. It is not because I am wish that to be, it is because Islam is simple and very close to human nature. If despite all hate, Islam is the fastest growing religion then one should take it seriously.

 

[Saira Khan]

My morality is based on rational thought , I’m s secular humanist , I would imagine we share much of the same morality
I think it’s wrong to steal , cheat, lie, murder, etc
I think it’s wrong because I recognise the harm it’s does to other people , and to my own self esteem.

Do you think it’s wrong because it has been decreed by a god ?

What if that god had said those things were not wrong ... would you then rob, cheat , murder ?
Like it or not , you decide what is moral and what is not .

So will you please define for us the terms "good" and "bad"? Using your rationality. How will you separate "instincts" from "rationality? And of course please do tell us what is morality? is it something absolute or is it relative as well?

 

[chalks75]

So will you please define for us the terms "good" and "bad"? Using your rationality. How will you separate "instincts" from "rationality? And of course please do tell us what is morality? is it something absolute or is it relative as well?

Good are those things that are beneficial to groups or individuals or the whole
Bad are things that are detrimental to groups or individuals, or the whole.
The balancing act is to be the tide that raises the most boats.

Morality is the recognition that your actions have consequences that affect other people.
And the responsibility to do as little harm and as much good as possible.

There is a notable book by author Sam Harris about the question of morality ,
He would say there is objective morality , if we can agree the human well-being is a common goal we can share.
If we accept this , then we can make objective moral decisions.

In my own opinion , I do not think there is objective morality , we decide what is moral and what is not, not only as individuals but as groups , and cultures.

For example
Some countries , cultures, groups think that the death penalty is morally acceptable , others do not.

There are things that we tend to agree are immoral , lying , stealing , murder for example .... I’m not sure about you , but I don’t need to be told murdering people is wrong.

If all religions and gods were somehow proved wrong tomorrow .... would you go around murdering people ?

I’m sure you would agree you do not need to believe a god is real to behave morally.

 

[chalks75]

I have not looked into statistics for your claim but you may be right. If you are then it is because most people in West are born Christians and when they grow up, they start seeing many contradictions in Bible. As a result many are leaving Christianity and becoming agnostic or atheist.

Western media portraits islam as evil and I know for a fact that if anyone is looking for the truth, they look into Islam as the last resort. This is why currently we may have more atheists in the West but Islam will eventually be the largest religion. It is not because I am wish that to be, it is because Islam is simple and very close to human nature. If despite all hate, Islam is the fastest growing religion then one should take it seriously.

How many people believe something has no bearing on its truth.
Islam is a tiny fraction of the people that hold religious beliefs.

What do you think happens when a religion gains in popularity and gets a large influx of converts ?
It dilutes the number of true believers , it starts to fragment , it creates tensions within the religion as people start turning it to their own ends.
You only have to look at how other religions developed to see this.
If you look at Christianity now , that is how Islam will end up, just give it another 3-4 hundred years.

Islam isn’t evil , Islam is just a collection of claims and ideas.
What people do based on these claims or ideas could be called immoral, or evil.
You may say that they are not following the doctrine correctly , it does not make the action any less evil.

 

[chalks75]

How so?

How many people believe something has no bearing on its truth.
Islam is a tiny fraction of the people that hold religious beliefs.

What do you think happens when a religion gains in popularity and gets a large influx of converts ?
It dilutes the number of true believers , it starts to fragment , it creates tensions within the religion as people start turning it to their own ends.
You only have to look at how other religions developed to see this.
If you look at Christianity now , that is how Islam will end up, just give it another 3-4 hundred years.

 

[chalks75]

Christianity and Islam are rising faster then any other religion (universally) - Atheism universally is going to have a smaller share much smaller



ps - the religiously unaffiliated doesn't mean atheists only.
source
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/27/religion-why-is-faith-growing-and-what-happens-next

I agree that non affiliated does not mean atheist.
I did acknowledge that Islam is the fastest growing demographic.
You are right , non affiliated , does not mean atheist.
But the trend is clear , especially in western Europe and North America.

If you care about Islam , you should not hope for it to become really popular , it will attract converts that are not true believers.
It will dilute the number of true believers , you will end up with Islam lite.

 

['Abdullah]

How many people believe something has no bearing on its truth.
Islam is a tiny fraction of the people that hold religious beliefs.

What do you think happens when a religion gains in popularity and gets a large influx of converts ?
It dilutes the number of true believers , it starts to fragment , it creates tensions within the religion as people start turning it to their own ends.
You only have to look at how other religions developed to see this.
If you look at Christianity now , that is how Islam will end up, just give it another 3-4 hundred years.

Islam isn’t evil , Islam is just a collection of claims and ideas.
What people do based on these claims or ideas could be called immoral, or evil.
You may say that they are not following the doctrine correctly , it does not make the action any less evil.

You are right that once a religion attracts more people then true believers do get diluted but you can’t compare this to Christianity. Christianity has a very fundamental problem. They have mixed up lot of things with Divine message and has corrupted the message so much that it is clear to any sincere person that Bible has been changed just by looking at so many contradictions.

Quran is preserved by Allah Himself because it is the final message for entire humanity until day of judgement. Muhammad PBUH is the last messenger and no guidance is going to come after Quran. As long as we have true source for guidance, we can always turn to it to find the right path. This is not the case with Christianity.

Muslims believe that one day all people will become Muslims ( after Jesus will come back to fight the anti-Christ) and Islam will be the only religion. After Jesus PBUH’s death, people will again start following Satan and a day will come when there will be not a single believer on earth. That’s when trumpet will be blown and everyone will die to be raised again for the Day of Judgement.

Muslims don’t care about number game. If you think that we are spending our time and energy to convert you to Islam just to increase Muslims in the world then you are mistaken. What benefit I would gain if you become Muslim? Nothing I can gain in this world if you accept Islam.

Since no prophet is going to come after prophet Muhammad PBUH, it is duty of every Muslim to share the message with every non Muslim to save them and ourselves from the hell fire. This life is temporary and is a test. How we do in this test, determines our fate on the day of judgement. That’s the only reason we are spending our time and energy is debating with you and other non Muslims. We care about you and want to share the knowledge which is given to us by God Almighty. You have free will to accept this message or reject it but I would hope that you will read Quran and do your research before you reject it or accept it. You admit that you don’t know if God exist. We are giving you the resources which can help you find that answer. If you just reject without looking into those resources then that would be a dishonest effort on your part.

 

[chalks75]

You are right that once a religion attracts more people then true believers do get diluted but you can’t compare this to Christianity. Christianity has a very fundamental problem. They have mixed up lot of things with Divine message and has corrupted the message so much that it is clear to any sincere person that Bible has been changed just by looking at so many contradictions.

Quran is preserved by Allah Himself because it is the final message for entire humanity until day of judgement. Muhammad PBUH is the last messenger and no guidance is going to come after Quran. As long as we have true source for guidance, we can always turn to it to find the right path. This is not the case with Christianity.

Muslims believe that one day all people will become Muslims ( after Jesus will come back to fight the anti-Christ) and Islam will be the only religion. After Jesus PBUH’s death, people will again start following Satan and a day will come when there will be not a single believer on earth. That’s when trumpet will be blown and everyone will die to be raised again for the Day of Judgement.

Muslims don’t care about number game. If you think that we are spending our time and energy to convert you to Islam just to increase Muslims in the world then you are mistaken. What benefit I would gain if you become Muslim? Nothing I can gain in this world if you accept Islam.

Since no prophet is going to come after prophet Muhammad PBUH, it is duty of every Muslim to share the message with every non Muslim to save them and ourselves from the hell fire. This life is temporary and is a test. How we do in this test, determines our fate on the day of judgement. That’s the only reason we are spending our time and energy is debating with you and other non Muslims. We care about you and want to share the knowledge which is given to us by God Almighty. You have free will to accept this message or reject it but I would hope that you will read Quran and do your research before you reject it or accept it. You admit that you don’t know if God exist. We are giving you the resources which can help you find that answer. If you just reject without looking into those resources then that would be a dishonest effort on your part.

I don’t believe Satan exists either.

It’s not just Christianity , it’s any large movement political or religious.

Once true believers are out numbered by the wishy washy believers , people who join for the wrong reasons , then the true believers start to lose control of the movement.

Has Islam not already split into a few different branches, there are different types of Muslims .

When you say that you believe that all people will be Muslims ,,, do you mean they will convert after they die ?
When you say “ all” people , do you mean “ all” people ... so someone like ... George bush , or peadophilles, rapists ,,murderers will all be Muslims?

 

[M.I.A.]

I don’t believe Satan exists either.

It’s not just Christianity , it’s any large movement political or religious.

Once true believers are out numbered by the wishy washy believers , people who join for the wrong reasons , then the true believers start to lose control of the movement.

Has Islam not already split into a few different branches, there are different types of Muslims .

When you say that you believe that all people will be Muslims ,,, do you mean they will convert after they die ?
When you say “ all” people , do you mean “ all” people ... so someone like ... George bush , or peadophilles, rapists ,,murderers will all be Muslims?

I think that's not a true reflection of how things work..

Simply because "control" is not a numbers game in most cases..

I mean, it's not even a religion specific observation on your part..

Countries undergo elections and political reform often, along with changing attitudes and social/economic conditions.

Trumps America is not the same as Obamas America.. the very concept of a morality driven system is subjective.

For all intents and purposes, wishy washy believers are most open to influence.

But personal choice is the overriding factor, simply because the laws of the land apply equally to all..

And avoiding trouble is not the same as avoiding the police. Metaphorically speaking.

Basically in the end it comes down to which muslims will be left.. so making the right life choices is very important.

...probably,

Because they may claim to be wolves but underneath they are pretty much sheep.

im not saying you should kill of all the muslims, but it probably has been touted in some circles.. probably nowhere close to you anyway.

but you cant be held responsible for everyone can you.

 

[chalks75]

I think that's not a true reflection of how things work..

Simply because "control" is not a numbers game in most cases..

I mean, it's not even a religion specific observation on your part..

Countries undergo elections and political reform often, along with changing attitudes and social/economic conditions.

Trumps America is not the same as Obamas America.. the very concept of a morality driven system is subjective.

For all intents and purposes, wishy washy believes are most open to influence.

But personal choice is the overriding factor, simply because the laws of the land apply equally to all..

And avoiding trouble is not the same as avoiding the police. Metaphorically speaking.

Basically in the end it comes down to which muslims will be left.. so making the right life choices is very important.

...probably,

Because they may claim to be wolves but underneath they are pretty much sheep.

I did not say this was solely a religious phenomenon , I said religious , political etc .

It applies to any movement , the more people that become involved , the more different personalities bringing their own ideas and attitudes, the more difficult it becomes to maintain the core message or values.

It’s not country specific , religion specific , or movement specific , it’s people specific.

It’s what happens when larger numbers of people come together , it gets increasingly harder to get the all to agree.

I could sum it up

Less people are easier to control than more people.
Would you agree with that ?

As for wishy washy believers , you are right , they would possibly easier to influence , but that works both ways , they could just as easily be influenced to leave Islam , or take up what you would deem in Islamic practices based on a faulty interpretation of islam.

People will join if it’s fashionable , or popular , but they will not truly believe.
I’m sure there are people today who say they are Muslims , but deep down they don’t believe.

It will come down to the Muslims that are left when exactly ?

 

[M.I.A.]

I did not say this was solely a religious phenomenon , I said religious , political etc .

It applies to any movement , the more people that become involved , the more different personalities bringing their own ideas and attitudes, the more difficult it becomes to maintain the core message or values.

It’s not country specific , religion specific , or movement specific , it’s people specific.

It’s what happens when larger numbers of people come together , it gets increasingly harder to get the all to agree.

I could sum it up

Less people are easier to control than more people.
Would you agree with that ?

As for wishy washy believers , you are right , they would possibly easier to influence , but that works both ways , they could just as easily be influenced to leave Islam , or take up what you would deem in Islamic practices based on a faulty interpretation of islam.

i wouldnt say that, basically the degree of personal choice diminishes with increasing group size.. but only for those in positions of responsibility.

so it very much depends on what you are responsible for and those things in your care.


basically we can establish that control is inherent, it is needed simply because.. and get this..


some life choices are detrimental to the people, the government, the country, the communities, the families.

and these ways of life are unacceptable and in the end.. un-maintainable.

what we should aim for is systems of control that increase reward for compliance.

and in itself serves to be productive for the whole.


but that would require a level of observation that "big brother" can only hope to match.

You could still question such a system for being corruptible morally and unfair for large parts of the population..

But a real system would incorporate these groups to have a function of their own.. as part the larger system.

Which is still morally ambiguous.. but more cleverly efficient.

It will come down to the Muslims that are left when exactly ?

...ah sorry, I didn't mean that in the slightest.. you possibly misinterpreted it because of the subject matter.

Maybe I just meant those that conform to the definition of muslim.. amongst the masses.

I didnt mean to intentionally imply otherwise. Or for anyone to follow such lines of thinking.



I'm not a politician.

 

[chalks75]

i wouldnt say that, basically the degree of personal choice diminishes with increasing group size.. but only for those in positions of responsibility.

so it very much depends on what you are responsible for and those things in your care.


basically we can establish that control is inherent, it is needed simply because.. and get this..


some life choices are detrimental to the people, the government, the country, the communities, the families.

and these ways of life are unacceptable and in the end.. un-maintainable.

what we should aim for is systems of control that increase reward for compliance.

and in itself serves to be productive for the whole.


but that would require a level of observation that "big brother" can only hope to match.

You could still question such a system for being corruptible morally and unfair for large parts of the population..

But a real system would incorporate these groups to have a function of their own.. as part the larger system.

Which is still morally ambiguous.. but more cleverly efficient.

I agree that religion is a system to control people , and the thought of a cosmic over watcher may encourage some people to behave ,
But
If you look at the world around us , religious people of all hues are just as likely to act immorally as those who do not believe in cosmic justice , so it’s not a successful system by any stretch of the imagination.

Couple this with the fact that there are so many religions claiming to be the one true religion it just confuses the matter more.

A better way to improve society would be to encourage people to think about their actions and how they impact others, that they have rights , but the right to swing their arm ends at the tip of my nose.
There are cases which the very belief in a god causes people to behave in ways I would call immoral ... Jews circumcision of children for example.


I think if your acting in a certain way because your afraid of what will happen if you don’t ... isn’t really acting morally , at least not as moral as doing the right thing because it’s the right thing to do