dcalling's questions

[dcalling]

Muhammad,

I come to check this thread because the note you posted in introduction section.

First, Quan was finally codified by Uthman, and he ordered all other copied destroyed (so there are other copies).
Also I don't understand why there are Quran and traditions, shouldn't all Muhammad's verses ben in Quran?

And Christians also have one God, Jesus is the word of God that shows as flesh to show us the way.

And lastly, he killed people even after they surrender, he also talked about Allah's 3 daughters, and it is very possible later Muslims changed Quran to correct that.

 

[greenhill]

Also I don't understand why there are Quran and traditions, shouldn't all Muhammad's verses been in Quran?

No, the Quran are the exact words of Allah. If I were to make it simple, the commandment would be spelt out in the Quran, and Muhammad s.a.w. would be the example how it is to be done. The Quran mentions in snippets about prayers (solat) but it does not tell you exactly how it is to be done and this is where we would need an example to follow. So the prophet's (pbuh) practice with regards to how to 'live' would be the 'sunnah' which has become the 'tradition' as you put it.

And Christians also have one God, Jesus is the word of God that shows as flesh to show us the way.

Yes, but then the Christians believe in the Trinity whereas no other 'people of the Books' ever needed God to transcend as a human to show us the way except Christians (which I believe is the work of Paul and not true to the original teachings).

For the other 'people of the Book', they only needed a prophet to show them the way.

Peace :shade:

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings dcalling,

I've moved your post into a new thread where you can ask questions without taking the thread off-topic.

For others' info, this is the thread being referred to: http://www.islamicboard.com/discove...ight-youre-wrong-no-youre-wrong-im-right.html

 

[greenhill]

Ooops, :embarrass

I wanted to edit the post immediately after clicking on the Post Quick Reply button and realised that it had gone to the Mods, as what we would say in Malay when the 'Oh ****!' situation arises (but with a much better meaning) 'Alamak!' - I cannot always remember what are the procedures for which sections, and I wanted to add further comment(s) on the other points dcalling made, but things worked out in the end hew. Just wanted to share the experience

Peace :shade:

 

[dcalling]

Thank you greenhill. I think Paul is the one that spread the teachings to others than Jews. About trinity, there is no such word in the Bible so I am sure it is what most Christians determined what they think God is. In the Bible however it only talked about they bowed to Jesus, and Jesus talked about been one with Father, so I think Jesus is part of God (or a reflection of God or have spirit of God or something that I can't explain), but Holy spirit might be something like angles or medium, I think Paul is responsible for saying that we should go out spread the Gospel in the name of the Father, son, holy spirit, but I don't think he said all of them are one. I will do more research on why holy spirit got involved as God.

 

[Nur Student]

About trinity, there is no such word in the Bible so I am sure it is what most Christians determined what they think God is. In the Bible however it only talked about they bowed to Jesus, and Jesus talked about been one with Father, so I think Jesus is part of God (or a reflection of God or have spirit of God or something that I can't explain), but Holy spirit might be something like angles or medium, I think Paul is responsible for saying that we should go out spread the Gospel in the name of the Father, son, holy spirit, but I don't think he said all of them are one. I will do more research on why holy spirit got involved as God.

dcalling, here is a commentary on a part of the verse in the Qur'an about believing in the old revelations. I think it might be interesting to you.

الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا اُنْزِلَ اِلَيْكَ وَمَا اُنْزِلَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ وَبِاْلاٰخِرَةِ هُمْ يُوقِنُونَ​

And who believe in that which is revealed to you, and that which was revealed before you, and have certain belief in the hereafter.

(Wa alladhīna yu’minūna bi-mā unzila ilayka wa mā unzila min qablika wa bi’l-ākhirati hum yūqinūn.) (Qur'an 2:4)


“... and that which was revealed before you (wa mā unzila min qablika)”

Consider this: the purpose of descriptions like these is to arouse eagerness, and this implies certain new injunctions: “Believe in such-and-such, and make no distinction between the prophets.” The phrase’s positioning and its ties with what precedes it comprise four subtle points:

Firstly: The argument from what is adduced to the evidence. It is like this:

“O men! If you believe in the Qur’an, believe also in the previous scriptures, for the Qur’an confirms their veracity and testifies to them (their original form).” This is indicated by “a confirmation of what went before.”(2:97)

Secondly: The argument from the evidence to what is adduced, like this:

“O People of the Book! If you believe in the past prophets and scriptures, you should also believe in the Qur’an and Muhammad (UWBP), for the scriptures gave the good news of his coming. Moreover, confirmation of them, and their revelation and evidences of the messengers’ prophethoods are found in reality and in spirit more perfectly in the Qur’an and more clearly in Muhammad (UWBP)." Thus, according to this excellent reasoning, the Qur’an is the Word of Allah and Muhammad (Upon whom be blessings and peace) is His Messenger.

Thirdly: In this is a sign that the outcome (al-ma’āl) of the Qur’an, that is, Islam, which emerged from it in the Era of Bliss, is like a tree whose origin is fastened in the depths of the past. Its spreading roots are fed from the water-sources of that time yielding life and strength. And with its trunk in the skies of the future, its spreading branches are laden with fruit. That is to say, Islam embraces the past and the future.

Fourthly: In this is a sign that it is urging the People of the Book to believe in Islam, for it is making it appear familiar to them, and easy. It is as though the Qur’an is saying:

‘O People of the Book! You should not experience any difficulty in entering this new way, for you are not casting away your outer shell altogether, but only completing your beliefs and building on the fundamentals you already possess.’ For the Qur’an does not bring any new fundamentals or principal beliefs; it modifies and perfects existent ones; and it combines in itself the virtues of all the previous books and the essentials of all the previous laws. It only establishes new ordinances in secondary matters, which are subject to change due to differences in time and place. For just as with the change of seasons, food and dress and many other things are changed; so too the stages of a person’s life warrant changes in the manner of their education and upbringing. Similarly, as necessitated by wisdom and need, religious ordinances concerning secondary matters change in accordance with the stages of mankind’s development. For very many of these are beneficial at one time yet harmful at another, and very many medicines were efficacious in mankind’s infancy yet ceased being remedies in its youth. This is the reason the Qur’an abrogated some of its secondary pronouncements. That is, it decreed that their time had finished and that the turn had come for other decrees.

~Signs of Miraculousness

 

[Nur Student]

Have you ever read any part from the Qur'an?

http://quran.com/2

Peace,

​

Sahih International
They say, "Be Jews or Christians [so] you will be guided." Say, "Rather, [we follow] the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, and he was not of the polytheists." (Qur'an 2:135)

Sahih International
Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." (Qur'an 2:136)

 

[Nur Student]

Please, also refer to this Sixteenth Sign relating some of the signs of prophethood in old scriptures, and the testimony of some of the early followers of the Book.



SIXTEENTH SIGN

The wonders that took place before his prophetic mission, but which were related to it, are called irhasat, and these too were indications and proofs of his prophethood. They were of three kinds:

The First Kind

This kind of irhasat comprises the tidings of Muhammad’s (UWBP) prophethood given by the Torah,the Bible,the Psalms of David, and the scriptures revealed to other prophets, as stated by the Qur’an. Indeed, since those Books are revealed scriptures and those who brought them were prophets, it is necessary and certain that they should have mentioned the one who would supersede their religions, change the shape of the universe, and illuminate half the earth with the light he brought. Is it possible that those scriptures, which foretold insignificant events, would not speak of the most important phenomenon of humanity, the prophethood of Muhammad (UWBP)? Yes, since they would certainly speak of it, they would either denounce it as a falsehood and so save their religions from destruction and their books from abrogation, or they would affirm it, and through that man of truth, save their religions from superstition and corruption. Now, both friend and foe agree that there is no sign of any such denouncement in the scriptures, in which case there must be affirmation. And since there is certain affirmation, and since there is a definite reason and fundamental cause for such affirmation, we too shall demonstrate through three categorical proofs the existence of this affirmation:

F i r s t P r o o f : God’s Noble Messenger (Upon whom be blessings and peace) says to them through the tongue of the Qur’an: “Your scriptures describe and confirm me; they confirm me in the things I say.” He challenges them with verses such as,

Say, “Bring the Torah and read it, if you are men of truth!”(3:93) * Say, “Come, let us gather together, our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves; then let us earnestly pray and invoke the curse of God on those who lie!”(3:61)

Despite his continuously taunting them with verses such as these, no Jewish scholar or Christian priest was able to show that he had made any error. If they had been able to, those very numerous and very obdurate and jealous unbelievers and dissembling Jews and the whole world of unbelief would have proclaimed it everywhere. The Messenger (UWBP) also said: “Either you find any error of mine, or I shall fight you until I destroy you!” And they chose war and wretchedness. That means they could not find any error. For if they had, they would have been saved from all that.

S e c o n d P r o o f : The words of the Torah, the Bible, and the Psalms do not have the miraculousness of those of the Qur’an. They have also been translated again and again, and a great many alien words have become intermingled with them. Also, the words of commentators and their false interpretations have been confused with their verses. In addition, the distortions of the ignorant and the hostile have been incorporated into them. In these ways, the corruptions and alterations have multiplied in those Books. In fact, Shaikh Rahmatullah al-Hindi, the well-known scholar, proved to Jewish and Christian scholars and priests thousands of corruptions in them, and silenced them...

(Continue the Sixteenth Sign here.)

 

[wayseer]

Dear DC

As a previous Christian my sympathies lie with your struggle.

I have a Grad Dip Theology and started a Master of Theology before I literally hit the wall. Christianity is really Churchianity in that it has very little to do with Jesus and very much to do with what the Church tells you to think.

As a result, being a Christian is a very intellectual exercise ... which you must use in order to make any sense of it at all. Eventually the trail simply vanishes ... but this might be something you have to find out for yourself.

Your questions resonate with the intellectualism contained in Christianity ... this is understandable but a hinderance to your progress. The Qur'an in not the Bible. The Qur'an is something totally different so applying the same intellectual questions to the Qur'an only serves to confuse an otherwise already confused mind.

May I make a suggestion ... that you read Bedîüzzaman Said Nursi's Risale-i Nur. Said Nursi died in 1960 and lived in Turkey where he spent much of his life in prison as his country wrestled with secularism, and where he wrote most of his writings. I urge you in this direction as the Master's, may peace abide with him always, words are directed at those wrestling with the very issues with which you must wrestle ... Christianity, secularism, atheism, science, evolution ... and his words are gentle, poetic and filled with grace and compassion. He will answer all your questions that you are likely to articulate.

May Allah bless you in that journey.

 

[greenhill]

May I make a suggestion ... that you read Bedîüzzaman Said Nursi's Risale-i Nur.

Maybe I will read that too!

Thank you

Peace :shade:

 

[dcalling]

Thank you Nur Student. I actually did read the Quran, not all of it of course. I finished the first few chapters, including the story of Abraham (Ibrahim) and the smart man. And others here or there on either pro or anti islam sites. I also did a lot of research on Muhammad's life. I have to say in he is a brilliant man, and his encounters appear to be real (Initially I think his visions make him look like a processed man, but in the old testimony prophets do appears to act that way, in the story of Saul). However on one account his killing of Jewish tribe of Banu turns me off, they did surrender, and his marriage to his adopted son's wife is a bit strange too. I am not judging him, but Jesus did say if anyone let one of the little ones fall, the punishment is sever. He is a prophet and should let an exemplar life on all aspects, and in the 10 commandments, God did say not covet.

I will read the sixteenth sign, and for the first one, I would argue that the Bible did warn against false prophets, that there will be false prophets at the end of times, and many signs point to Jesus. The one thing that might be Muhammad is Jesus said he has to go, else God won't send another in his place, and it is translated as Holy Spirit. I did consider if it is Muhammad, but it can't because it has to arrive then and need to be here forever.

 

[dcalling]

Thank you wayseer. yes I did find myself going over some of the stuff again and again. I thought all I need to do is love God and love others, but as I started to prepare to argue with the Muslims (you guys :statisfie) some of those questions just can't go away. I question Trinity which is not found in Bible but believed by all church members, and Jesus's word and what the disciples described (worshiped him) seems to indicate he is God but his other word indicate he is lesser than God. I remember I listened to a great pastor online, and he think Jesus is archangel Michael (and later find out his branch is labeled as heretic by our church, must because of that). This might be a life and death question since Jesus said you have to believe in him to enter heaven, I hope if I ever understand it wrong God can still accept me out of Grace because I can't understand the secret of heaven.

But I don't agree with you on not intellectually question the Quran, because if one just accept something without intellectual analyze, that is not believing.

I will read Said Nursi, but it will take sometime since I want to read Sixteenth sign first (or maybe I should read Said Nursi first?)

 

[wayseer]

Dear DC

Using the intellect and intellectualizing are two different things.

Let me illustrate.

What are the first words of the Qur'an? ... In the name of Allah, All Merciful, All Compassionate ... depending on the English translation you hold. These words are repeated throughout the Qur'an. Either you accept them or you don't ... it's that simple. You cannot analyze God.

This is where Said Nursi will help out ... and provide you with the reasons you seek. So, be gentle with yourself because there is much we don't understand.

 

[Nur Student]

I will read Said Nursi, but it will take sometime since I want to read Sixteenth sign first (or maybe I should read Said Nursi first?)

Said Nursi is the author of the collection called Risale-i Nur, and the Sixteenth Sign is a short excerpt from the whole collection. You can find some of the books here:

http://www.erisale.com/index.jsp?locale=en#content.en.201.15

And the sixteenth sign, which is part of the 19th Letter here:

http://www.erisale.com/index.jsp?locale=en#content.en.202.197

The one thing that might be Muhammad is Jesus said he has to go, else God won't send another in his place, and it is translated as Holy Spirit. I did consider if it is Muhammad, but it can't because it has to arrive then and need to be here forever.

Can't it be that Paraclete will be with you with his teachings? The prophet (s.a.w.) repeatedly decreed: “I leave you two things. If you adhere to them, you will find salvation: one is God’s Book, the other is my Family.” (1) By family, he means his practices (Sunna) because members of his family were the source and guardians of his Sunna and were charged with complying with them in every respect. So what was intended by this Hadith was adherence to the Book and the Prophet’s practices.

Dipnot-4 Tirmidhi, Manaqib, 31; Musnad, iii, 14, 17, 26.

Best..

 

[Nur Student]

and his marriage to his adopted son's wife is a bit strange too. I am not judging him, but Jesus did say if anyone let one of the little ones fall, the punishment is sever. He is a prophet and should let an exemplar life on all aspects, and in the 10 commandments, God did say not covet.

Here is the answer of your doubt, again from Risale-i Nur by Said Nursi:

The Seventh Letter

In His Name, be He glorified!
And there is nothing but it glorifies Him with praise.(17:44)

​

“Like the dissemblers in early times, the misguided of modern times make the marriage of God’s Messenger (Upon whom be blessings and peace) with Zaynab a pretext for criticism, considering it was intended to satisfy the lusts of the soul.”

T h e A n s w e r : God forbid, a hundred thousand times! Such vile doubts cannot be harboured against that lofty one! The Messenger (UWBP) was such that from the age of fifteen to forty when the blood is fiery and exuberant and the passions of the soul enflamed, with complete chastity and purity he sufficed and was content with a single older woman, Khadija the Great (May God be pleased with her) – as is agreed by friend and foe alike. His having numerous wives after the age of forty, that is, when bodily heat subsides and the passions are quietened, is decisive, self-evident proof for those who are even a little fair-minded that such marriages were not to satisfy the carnal appetites, but were for other important reasons and instances of wisdom.

One of those instances of wisdom is this: as with his words, the actions, states, conduct, and deeds of God’s Messenger (UWBP) are the sources of religion and the Shari‘a, and provide authority for its injunctions. The Companions transmitted the outward, public things, and his wives were the transmitters and narrators of the private matters of religion and injunctions of the Shari‘a that became clear from his private conduct in the personal sphere; they performed that function. Perhaps half of the personal matters of religion and the injunctions concerning them come from them. That is to say, numerous wives of differing temperament were required to perform this necessary duty.

Now let us consider his marriage with Zaynab. In connection with the verse,

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but [he is] the Messsenger of God and the Seal of the Prophets,(33:40)

which is one of the examples given in the Third Ray of the First Light in the Twenty-Fifth Word, it is written that given their many aspects, single verses state meanings that address all classes of men, each with its own understanding.

One class’s share of understanding of the above verse is this: according to a sound narration based on his own admission, Zayd, the Noble Messenger’s (UWBP) servant whom he addressed as “my son,” divorced his proud wife because he did not find himself equal to her. That is to say, with his perceptiveness, Zayd realized that Zaynab had been created with an elevated character different to his and that it was in her nature to be a prophet’s wife. As a spouse he found himself unequal to her and this caused incompatibility, so he divorced her. At God’s command, His Messenger (Upon whom be blessings and peace) took her. That is, as indicated by the verse,

We joined her in marriage to you,(33:37)

which shows that it was a heavenly contract, the marriage was out of the ordinary, above external relations, and entered into purely on the orders of divine determining. Thus, the Noble Messenger (UWBP) submitted to the decree of divine determining and was compelled to do so; it was not at the behest of carnal desire. The verse,

In order that [in future] there may be no difficulty to the believers in [the matter of] marriage with the wives of their adopted sons(33:37)

comprises an important injunction of the Shari‘a, a general instance of wisdom, and a comprehensive, general benefit pertaining to this decree of divine determining; it indicates that adults calling the young “my son” is not forbidden so that it should be the cause of ordinances being changed –as though “zihar,” that is, a man saying to his wife “you are like my mother,” is forbidden. Also, great personages look to their followers in fatherly fashion and address them as such, and divine messengers do the same with their communities. But this is because of their positions as leaders and messengers; it is not in respect of their human personalities making it inappropriate for them to take wives from among them.

Another class’s share of understanding the verse is this: a great ruler looks on his subjects with paternal compassion. If he is a spiritual king holding both outward and inward rule, his compassion will be a hundred times greater than that of a father, and his subjects will look on him as their father as though they were his real sons. The paternal view is not easily transformed into that of a husband, nor a girl’s view into that of a wife. Since according to this the public find it inappropriate that a prophet should take the believers’ daughters in marriage, the Qur’an repels such doubts, saying: By virtue of divine mercy the Prophet (UWBP) is kindly towards you and he deals with you in fatherly fashion, and in the name of messengership you are like his children. But in regard to his human personality he is not your father so that it should be inappropriate for him to take a wife from among you. Even if he calls you “son,” according to the Shari‘a you can’t be his children!”

 

[Muhaba]

Muhammad,

I come to check this thread because the note you posted in introduction section.

First, Quan was finally codified by Uthman, and he ordered all other copied destroyed (so there are other copies).

No, Quran was in written form from the beginning. The Prophet (peace be upon him) had over 40 scribes. Whenever a verse or part of the Quran would be revealed, he would call the scribes and they would write it down. Furthermore, he would instruct them where in the written Quran the verses were to be placed, upon divine instruction.

In one tradition (hadith) it is stated that when the people from Madina first came to meet the Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم and they indicated that they were becoming Muslims, the Prophet (PBUH) sent with them (to Madina) the written down portion of the Quran (what was revealed upto that time) along with a companion who would help them recite it and learn it. That shows that the Quran was being written from the start and reading the written Quran was being implemented from the beginning. Note that the Prophet could've simply sent a Qari (one who memorized the Quran) to help the people recite and learn the Quran. but the Prophet didn't just send a qari. He also sent the written down portion of the Quran.

The copies of the Quran that were destroyed by Uthman were those written by people themselves from oral learning. Remember that all people didn't know how to read or write and the people didn't have one standard language. They didn't have one method of spelling. This was the same as early version of English. In the past, there were many variants of spelling, so the same word might be written using different spellings. In history of the English language it was even written that the same person might spell the same word in different ways in one document! So to keep differences from arising in the future, it was necessary to order that only the official version of the Quran be used and not a self-written version. This is what Uthman did when he ordered all unofficial copies to be destroyed and only the official copy be used for writing all copies of the Quran.

Also I don't understand why there are Quran and traditions, shouldn't all Muhammad's verses ben in Quran?

The Quran is the Word of Allah (God). Traditions of the Prophet are his applications of the religion according to the Quran and God's instructions and are not included in the Quran. Traditions (hadith and Sunnah) are compiled separately in books of hadith. These were written by people in later generations. there are also available commentaries of the Quran that contain the Quranic verses along with translation and explanations. These were also written by common people in later generations. Only the Quran is the exact word of God and it is in its original text in Arabic. It is the same today as it was when it was revealed.

And Christians also have one God, Jesus is the word of God that shows as flesh to show us the way.

And lastly, he killed people even after they surrender, he also talked about Allah's 3 daughters, and it is very possible later Muslims changed Quran to correct that.

I didn't understand what you wrote.

 

[Nur Student]

However on one account his killing of Jewish tribe of Banu turns me off, they did surrender,

To look deeper into the incident, not separate from the context:

According to the treaty between Sons of Qurayza Jews and the Prophet, Sons of Qurayza Jews were supposed to defend Madinah, which was besieged by the enemy, together with Muslims during the Battle of Khandaq.[1]However, they did not do so; besides, they collaborated with the polytheists during the most critical point of the battle by violating the articles of the treaty. They insulted the delegates that the Prophet had sent to investigate the claims and to make peace by saying, “Who is the Messenger of God? We have no agreement or treaty with Muhammad.” They even said bad words against the Prophet.[2]What is more, they attacked on Madinah and tried to kill the Muslim women and children. Thus, they worried and panicked Muslims more than the worry about the battle. It was a clear betrayal and gratitude against the Prophet, who had treated them favorably.

As a result of the Battle of Khandaq, the enemy army that consisted of ten thousand people was defeated heavily and had to retreat. Sons of Qurayza, who had supported the polytheists during the battle also retreated and took shelter in their strong castle, which was two hours away from Madinah, with disappointment.

They were aware of their treacherous act. Therefore, they were worried that the Messenger of God would walk against them. (...)

......................................

[1]Ibn Hisham, Sirah, Vol. 2, p. 147-148.[2]Ibn Hisham, ibid, Vol. 3, p. 233; Ibn Sa’d, Tabaqat, Vol. 2, p. 74; Muslim, Sahih, Vol. 3, p. 1389.

Continue reading here: http://www.questionsonislam.com/article/expedition-sons-qurayza

 

[wayseer]

I didn't understand what you wrote.

And Christians also have one God, Jesus is the word of God that shows as flesh to show us the way.

Even for Christians that 'Jesus is the Word' is a difficult concept (note the capital W). If you go back to the first verses of Genesis creation is begun with God uttering the words ... 'Let there be light'. So before Creation existed the sound of God's voice pervaded the void. In the first verses of the Gospel of John the Creation story is revisited ... 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God'. The writer of the Gospel is clearly telling his reader that Jesus was God who is the Creator ... such claim is supported by the first verses of Genesis.

This is a neat bit of intellectualizing on the part of the author of the Gospel of John but remember this gospel was written at least 70 odd years after Jesus and the author is writing from his present situation in that for those to whom he wrote understood what he meant.

The Church seized on this text for the very reason that it supports the Christian claim that Jesus is God.

If we leave John aside and read Mark (written about 66 CE), the first gospel text, we find no reference of the Word being Jesus. In other words, there is a progression across time and across the gospel texts which adds and embellishes the 'Jesus story' to the point where it is more myth than anything else.

I add these words only to explain how many Christians think (how they have been taught to think) not as in any supporting the misguided use of theology.

 

[dcalling]

I didn't understand what you wrote.

1. I will do more research on the compilation of Quran and see if that is true.

2. The part of Allah's 3 daughters is a well known incident where in ealier years of Muhammand's life he preached Allah has 3 daughters (intersessions is to be hoped for, Sura 53, 19-20. ). Muhammad justified this with other Sura (22:52).

 

[dcalling]

Thank you Writer (for the above post I was posting back to Writer, forget to mention that).

And Thank you Nur Student. It is fair, because there were other evidences on both side so there is no way to know exactly what happened. Also I think David (2nd king of Israel) did something similar (put everyone under the saw, I don't remember the exact incident, and the meaning might be the same). So I will let this one pass.