dead babies go to heaven without baptism?

As Tania mentioned, this issue was a theological theory, as all human beings are born with original sin. Since the answer will lie with God, as all answers do, the Catholic Church left the issue in the hands of God. Which should have been the stance to begin with, but scholars need to debate and theorize.
 
As if babies have a choice :rolleyes:

THey cant think now can they?
they born and thinkin the same way...nvrmind i dunt want no body jumpin at me...but u prolly kno wut i was gna say...lol :X

Wasalaam
 
Relax...Im not trying to start anythin.

We are talking about babies here. Not someone who knows right from wrong. Like truemuslim said, they wouldn't know anything. Thats why I dont agree with original sin....each to their own....
 
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Jazzy said:
Relax...

We are talking about babies here. Not someone who knows right from wrong. Like truemuslim said, they wouldn't know anything. Thats why I dont agree with original sin....each to their own....
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Original sin describes a loss of grace which can only be obtained again through Jesus Christ. Since the issue of infants who pass wasn't addressed in particular, it left many things open for theological theories. The majority of people wouldn't expect God to hold infants accountable for anything, and as far as we know they get a one-way ticket to Heaven. Do we have evidence of that? No. So we leave it in the hands of God, as all things. Since our God is one of mercy and justice it would stand to reason that infants are not held accountable. Which I'm sure is the belief of the vast majority of faithful Christians.
 
^^Yes I get it...which is why I said I don't understand the reason for original sin and I don't agree with it. But then again, it's so closely fit together with your other beliefs. So to leave one means to leave others.
 
Keltoi said:
As Tania mentioned, this issue was a theological theory, as all human beings are born with original sin.
Click to expand...
Well, this is not 100% correct - weren't both Mary and Jesus born without the stain of "original sin"?

Wikipedia:
The Immaculate Conception is, according to Roman Catholic dogma, the conception of Mary, the mother of Jesus without any stain of original sin, in her mother's womb: the dogma thus says that, from the first moment of her existence, she was preserved by God from the lack of sanctifying grace that afflicts mankind, and that she was instead filled with divine grace.
Since the answer will lie with God, as all answers do, the Catholic Church left the issue in the hands of God. Which should have been the stance to begin with, but scholars need to debate and theorize.
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Since according to Catholic doctrine man is born with the sin of Adam and therefore co-guilty, even infants need to be baptized. The Roman Catholic Church considers baptism, even for infants, so important that "parents are obliged to see that their infants are baptised within the first few weeks" and, "if the infant is in danger of death, it is to be baptised without any delay." but yet The Church has no official teaching regarding the fate of infants who die without Baptism, and theologians of the Church hold various views (for instance, some have asserted that they go to Limbo, which has never been official Catholic doctrine). "The Church entrusts these infants to the mercy of God." (Wikipedia infant baptism)

...and yet surely the dead infants have never believed that Jesus was the Son of God and that he died on the cross for their (yet to be committed) sins and hence never accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour. Didn't these infants die outside the realm of Christianity but for infant baptism?
 
http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s3i17800



Roman Catholic Church has effectively buried the concept of limbo, the place where centuries of tradition and teaching held that babies who die without baptism went.


In a long-awaited document, the Church's International Theological Commission said limbo reflected an "unduly restrictive view of salvation," according to the U.S.-based Catholic News Service, which obtained a copy on Friday.

The thumbs-down verdict on limbo had been expected for years and the document, called "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised," was seen as most likely to be final since limbo was never formally part of Church doctrine.

Pope Benedict authorized the publication of the document.

According to the CNS report, the 41-page document says the theologians advising the Pope concluded that since God is merciful he "wants all human beings to be saved."

It says grace has priority over sin, and the exclusion of innocent babies from heaven does not seem to reflect Christ's special love for children, CNS, which is owned by the U.S. Catholic Bishops Conference, quoted the document as saying.

Limbo, which comes from the Latin word meaning "border" or "edge," was considered by medieval theologians to be a state or place reserved for the unbaptised dead, including good people who lived before the coming of Christ.

"Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered ... give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptised infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision (of God)," the document said, according to CNS which is part of the U.S. Catholic Bishops Conference.

The Church teaches that baptism removes original sin which stained all souls since the fall from grace in the Garden of Eden.

The commission has been working on the document for some time and members have said in the past that it would recommend that the concept of limbo be scrapped.

In writings before his election as Pope in 2005, the then
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger made it clear he believed the concept of limbo should be abandoned because it was "only a theological hypothesis" and "never a defined truth of faith."

The Catholic Church's official catechism, issued in 1992 after decades of work, dropped the mention of limbo.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,267420,00.html
 
MustafaMc said:
Well, this is not 100% correct - weren't both Mary and Jesus born without the stain of "original sin"?

Wikipedia:
The Immaculate Conception is, according to Roman Catholic dogma, the conception of Mary, the mother of Jesus without any stain of original sin, in her mother's womb: the dogma thus says that, from the first moment of her existence, she was preserved by God from the lack of sanctifying grace that afflicts mankind, and that she was instead filled with divine grace. Since according to Catholic doctrine man is born with the sin of Adam and therefore co-guilty, even infants need to be baptized. The Roman Catholic Church considers baptism, even for infants, so important that "parents are obliged to see that their infants are baptised within the first few weeks" and, "if the infant is in danger of death, it is to be baptised without any delay." but yet The Church has no official teaching regarding the fate of infants who die without Baptism, and theologians of the Church hold various views (for instance, some have asserted that they go to Limbo, which has never been official Catholic doctrine). "The Church entrusts these infants to the mercy of God." (Wikipedia infant baptism)

...and yet surely the dead infants have never believed that Jesus was the Son of God and that he died on the cross for their (yet to be committed) sins and hence never accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour. Didn't these infants die outside the realm of Christianity but for infant baptism?
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You are correct about Christ and Mary, I excluded them because I assumed that needed no explanation.

As for infants, when we speak of original sin it has nothing to do with sin that will be committed. It refers to a loss of grace for all(exluding Christ and Mary) human beings. It was Christ who returned that grace to us. That is why the theory of limbo doesn't hold up in relation to infants, because grace was returned through Christ. Which I'm sure was the Pope's line of reasoning when he scrapped the idea.
 
...and yet surely the dead infants have never believed that Jesus was the Son of God and that he died on the cross for their (yet to be committed) sins and hence never accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour. Didn't these infants die outside the realm of Christianity but for infant baptism?
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Keltoi said:
As for infants, when we speak of original sin it has nothing to do with sin that will be committed.
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Yes, I know - I was just pointing out that infants have no concept of the Christian plan of salvation or of original or personal sin. Growing up as a Baptist, I had no concept of original sin, but was guilty of my own sin once I hit puberty. Without infant baptism, my limited understanding of Catholicism is that, the dead infants retain the stain of Adam's original sin and Christian doctrine teaches that there must be atonement for sin because God can't be in the presence of sin. "No one comes to the Father, but through the Son."

Is there any Biblical evidence for Mary and Jesus not being born with original sin of Adam's disobedience?
 
So prior to Christs Birth, Original sin existed for all except mary or was the act of giving birth the point where marys original sin vanished?
Or was she chosen for the task, because she was untainted by sin. If so-How so?
 
barney said:
So prior to Christs Birth, Original sin existed for all except mary or was the act of giving birth the point where marys original sin vanished?
Or was she chosen for the task, because she was untainted by sin. If so-How so?
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I understand that Mary was born into a unique "state of Grace". Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings. http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

If one considers that Jesus is God, then how could God be born to a sinful creature? Since Jesus was also a human then he must have also been shielded from the stain of "original sin" else God would bear that sin too.
 
That sounds about right for Christian Doctrine.
Definatly need more christians about to give a wider veiw on it. :)
 
barney said:
So prior to Christs Birth, Original sin existed for all except mary or was the act of giving birth the point where marys original sin vanished?
Or was she chosen for the task, because she was untainted by sin. If so-How so?
Click to expand...

Mary is thought to have been in a state of grace. I say "thought" because it is a matter of reason and not based on anything scriptural, at least not specifically. It would stand to reason that if God chose Mary as the vessel that would bring Christ into the world she would be in a state of grace as a result of that.
 
Keltoi said:
Mary is thought to have been in a state of grace. I say "thought" because it is a matter of reason and not based on anything scriptural, at least not specifically. It would stand to reason that if God chose Mary as the vessel that would bring Christ into the world she would be in a state of grace as a result of that.
Click to expand...



Ok, thanks Kelt. Happy with that.:)
 
Keltoi said:
Everyone's salvation is left to God. Unless you have some power I'm not aware of
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If Christians are saved (past tense) when they accept Jesus as their personal Saviour, isn't it a foregone conclusion that they will go to Heaven? I mean haven't they already accepted (past tense) the free gift of Salvation? The Christians that I know, claim there is no doubt in their heart that they will go to Paradise, nor is there any fear of the Hellfire.

With that said, what does the Judgment Day mean for Christians? Will they be judged or bypass that process altogether? How will babies enter Heaven if they haven't accepted the free gift of Jesus' cleansing blood or been cleansed of the sin of Adam?
 

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