Debate: Why do some people completely reject hadith?

[hakkerz]

Edit: Sorry, i didnt mean to have a go at anybody, and IsaAbdullah, you said nothing of what i was talking about, and i appologise, i just referring to the fact that both of you had long replies. Thank you for the lectures, and for your kind reply.

Salam

 

[InToTheRain]

No i think you should re-read my post, these people i was referring to are people who reject hadith completely and read quran only. wherever in the quran it says u have to pray the person said it means just meditating. sufism is different, they still perform salah

That may be so akhi, but remember even they have sects within them, such as some Shias believe Ali(RA) shouldv'e been the prophet and some shias just didn't like certain Sahabas but say Mohammad(SAW) is the best of mankind.

Similiarly in Sufism we have those who do not do Salat. They just meditate and say their prayer has been done by meditating.

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?boardID=399&discussionID=531320

 

[snakelegs]

i am just beginning to read the hadith and can see the role they play in elaborating on the qur'an, getting to know the prophet more, etc.
question i have is that why, when the hadith are more strict than the qur'an - and the subject matter seems serious enough that if it were truly important, it would be in the qur'an - are the hadith given preference, or followed?
i'm thinking of things like death for apostasy
death for willfully neglecting salat, etc.
some of these harsh judgements seem to be hard to reconcile with god the merciful.

 

[Umar001]

Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah

Hi, Br. Hakkerz,

Edit: Sorry, i didnt mean to have a go at anybody, and IsaAbdullah, you said nothing of what i was talking about, and i appologise, i just referring to the fact that both of you had long replies. Thank you for the lectures, and for your kind reply.

Salam

I was abit confused at what you said, I understood that maybe Br. Ahmed's reply could have been seen as 'stern' but I was just sharing what I knew and I didnt mean to make you think I called you ignorant or thought you were ignorant, I dont think it would be a great thing to go upto anyone and say 'Your Ignorant' as that would hardly work.

I, just had learnt opposite things to what you had said, and I put them accross, as a brother, who was just sharing knowledge, the little I had thats all.

Don't feel I was talking down to you, or belittlelin you, or anything, I actually thought I sounded very open, I tried to.

Anyway, I am sorry if you felt that I had any hate or anger towards you, inshaAllah you don't

Love you for the sake of Allah.

With regards to what your friend asks you, again, you just tell him, that its not just one or two people that classify the hadeeth, yes Bukhari did, but even upto now, Al Albani is still classifyin them, looking at certain areas, you find it articles, 'Tirmithy, classified Sahih by Al Albani' I think personally that there is such alot of work that goes into it, not by one, or two but alot of Muhaddith that it is improbable that they would all lie or make the same mistake.

InshaAllah hope your well.

Assalamu Aleykum, Eesa

 

[hakkerz]

Dear Br.IsaAbdullah

I am sincerely sorry that you felt my message was aimed at you. I thought your first and latest posts were informative, and very well put. You ofended me in no way, and i appreciate your replies, they have taught me a lot. I an truely sorry if you felt i was rude in my reply, that was not my intention, irrespective of whom it was targeted to.

You have a very kind way of putting things, and certainly, didnt feel you attempted to belittle me.

Again, sincere apologies..

Asking for your duaas and supplications in your prayers...

Take care...

Salam. Ahmad.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

i am just beginning to read the hadith and can see the role they play in elaborating on the qur'an, getting to know the prophet more, etc.

Excellent.

question i have is that why, when the hadith are more strict than the qur'an - and the subject matter seems serious enough that if it were truly important, it would be in the qur'an - are the hadith given preference, or followed?

There are several problems with your above comment. First of all you have made an assumption about what kind of content is found in the Qur'an and what kind is found in the Sunnah, but your assumption is false. The division between content is not based on 'more important' or 'less important'. Every teaching of Islam is significant. So this is not the point of distinction. Rather, as I mentioned numerous times in this thread, in general the fundamentals of the message of Islam and its guidance are found in the Qur'an, whereas the practical implementation, the laws, details and explanations, specific prophecies are found in the Sunnah.
Secondly, the hadith are not more strict than the Qur'an. I assume that you are thinking of penal law, but there is still no case where the hadith prescribe a more severe punishment than the Qur'an. They clarify the context and conditions of those punishments. Lastly, the Qur'an and Ahâdîth are taken together. We don't take from one instead of the other in some cases. We follow the Qur'an in light of the Ahâdîth NOT taking the Ahâdîth instead of the Qur'an.

i'm thinking of things like death for apostasy

Here but I'm sure you've alreadey seen this.

death for willfully neglecting salat, etc.

Where did you get this from?! The only way this can occur is in the case of apostasy in which case you were wrong in distinguishing it from the above.

some of these harsh judgements seem to be hard to reconcile with god the merciful.

No, they are not. God is Merciful, but He is Just. ANYONE who repents no matter WHAT they have done, they will be forgiven. THAT is God's mercy. God's punishment only comes upon those who persist in their misguidance and stubbornly refuse to repent. He has made it so easy for people to accept the truth but they still turn away and reject the bounties of God.

16:33 ...And in no way was God unjust to them, but rather they were unjust to themselves.

 

[Hijrah]

Excellent.

There are several problems with your above comment. First of all you have made an assumption about what kind of content is found in the Qur'an and what kind is found in the Sunnah, but your assumption is false. The division between content is not based on 'more important' or 'less important'. Every teaching of Islam is significant. So this is not the point of distinction. Rather, as I mentioned numerous times in this thread, in general the fundamentals of the message of Islam and its guidance are found in the Qur'an, whereas the practical implementation, the laws, details and explanations, specific prophecies are found in the Sunnah.
Secondly, the hadith are not more strict than the Qur'an. I assume that you are thinking of penal law, but there is still no case where the hadith prescribe a more severe punishment than the Qur'an. They clarify the context and conditions of those punishments. Lastly, the Qur'an and Ahâdîth are taken together. We don't take from one instead of the other in some cases. We follow the Qur'an in light of the Ahâdîth NOT taking the Ahâdîth instead of the Qur'an.

Here but I'm sure you've alreadey seen this.

Where did you get this from?! The only way this can occur is in the case of apostasy in which case you were wrong in distinguishing it from the above.

No, they are not. God is Merciful, but He is Just. ANYONE who repents no matter WHAT they have done, they will be forgiven. THAT is God's mercy. God's punishment only comes upon those who persist in their misguidance and stubbornly refuse to repent. He has made it so easy for people to accept the truth but they still turn away and reject the bounties of God.

16:33 ...And in no way was God unjust to them, but rather they were unjust to themselves.

Brother, 3 of the 4 major schools of fiqh, agree that the punishment for willfully neglecting salat is death

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Brother, 3 of the 4 major schools of fiqh, agree that the punishment for willfully neglecting salat is death

You're confusing two things. It is not a seperate punishment from apostasy, what they are saying is that wilfully neglecting salah IS apostasy, because how can someone who purposefully rejects and abandons the salah be considered Muslim? And once one understands that this is an issue of apostasy, all the points I mentioned before on apostasy apply here as well and it has to be clear that the person has actually disbelieved in the way described and refuses to repent.

 

[Hijrah]

You're confusing two things. It is not a seperate punishment from apostasy, what they are saying is that wilfully neglecting salah IS apostasy, because how can someone who purposefully rejects and abandons the salah be considered Muslim? And once one understands that this is an issue of apostasy, all the points I mentioned before on apostasy apply here as well and it has to be clear that the person has actually disbelieved in the way described and refuses to repent.

o so if someone repents for neglecting salah, they go free?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

o so if someone repents for neglecting salah, they go free?

Of course!

 

[snakelegs]

There are several problems with your above comment. First of all you have made an assumption about what kind of content is found in the Qur'an and what kind is found in the Sunnah, but your assumption is false. The division between content is not based on 'more important' or 'less important'. Every teaching of Islam is significant. So this is not the point of distinction. Rather, as I mentioned numerous times in this thread, in general the fundamentals of the message of Islam and its guidance are found in the Qur'an, whereas the practical implementation, the laws, details and explanations, specific prophecies are found in the Sunnah.
Secondly, the hadith are not more strict than the Qur'an. I assume that you are thinking of penal law, but there is still no case where the hadith prescribe a more severe punishment than the Qur'an. They clarify the context and conditions of those punishments. Lastly, the Qur'an and Ahâdîth are taken together. We don't take from one instead of the other in some cases. We follow the Qur'an in light of the Ahâdîth NOT taking the Ahâdîth instead of the Qur'an.

Here but I'm sure you've alreadey seen this.

thanks for your reply. yes, there is much i don't know and i probably am guilty of making assumptions. the qur'an is the word of god and the hadiths are writings by the companions of the prophet. how can they be of equal weight?
you say the hadiths are not more harsh than the qur'an, but the qur'an does not prescribe death for apostasy, does it?
yes, i had read the link you gave before.

Where did you get this from?! The only way this can occur is in the case of apostasy in which case you were wrong in distinguishing it from the above.

well, if a person deliberately neglects his prayers, he is guilty of apostasy, which is punishable by death - so the end result is the same....

No, they are not. God is Merciful, but He is Just. ANYONE who repents no matter WHAT they have done, they will be forgiven. THAT is God's mercy. God's punishment only comes upon those who persist in their misguidance and stubbornly refuse to repent. He has made it so easy for people to accept the truth but they still turn away and reject the bounties of God.

yes, i am aware of this. but the fact remains, if the apostate persists in his apostasy, he deserves to be killed. i understand this in the times when islam was young and under attack - that these people could be seen as traitors, and a very real liability to the community so they were considered deserving of death. but i don't understand it in modern times.

16:33 ...And in no way was God unjust to them, but rather they were unjust to themselves.

i do unerstand the concept of the door to repentance is always open and that god is merciful. but i have trouble understanding why, in a matter as grave as death, god does not mention it in the qur'an.
there is a lot i don't understand, but i am learning - at first i couldn't figure out the need for the hadiths at all. :giggling:
but i do have trouble grasping certain concepts.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

and THAT'S the mercy of Allah(swt). SubhanAllah, even after such a thing as apostasy.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

i understand this in the times when islam was young and under attack - that these people could be seen as traitors, and a very real liability to the community so they were considered deserving of death. but i don't understand it in modern times.

That still applies to today bro. There are people who leave Islam and find it amusing to bash Islam and produce books on it. You know Salman Rushdies book are accepted in some universities? How would i take that? Is that not being traitors? People actually defend their biases with things like that.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Snakelegs,

thanks for your reply. yes, there is much i don't know and i probably am guilty of making assumptions. the qur'an is the word of god and the hadiths are writings by the companions of the prophet. how can they be of equal weight?

I don't know how much of this thread you've read/understood but it should have been clear why your above comment is wrong. The Ahadith constitute the documentation of the Sunnah, which we can describe as the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. BOTH the Qur'an and Sunnah are revelation from God. The Qur'an is divinely revealed in both meaning and words while the Ahadith are only divinely revealed in meaning and the words are those of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. We understand the Qur'an in light of the Ahadith, we don't see it as a competition between the two sources as to which is weightier because that whole mentality is flawed. They are taken together not in opposition to one another. When we follow the Qur'an, we follow it in accordance with the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Can you understand from this perspective why it is absurd to pit the two against eachother and ask which would win?

you say the hadiths are not more harsh than the qur'an, but the qur'an does not prescribe death for apostasy, does it?

But since it is silent on the legal punishment altogether you cannot claim that one is more harsh than the other. If the hadith said that the punishment was death and the Qur'an said that it wasn't or that it was just a fine, THEN you could make such a claim of the hadith being more harsh. But when the Ahadith discusses a subject that is not discussed altogether in the Qur'an, making such a comparison is illogical.

well, if a person deliberately neglects his prayers, he is guilty of apostasy, which is punishable by death - so the end result is the same....

But it is not a different punishment, in both cases the punishment being discussed IS the punishment for apostasy.

yes, i am aware of this. but the fact remains, if the apostate persists in his apostasy, he deserves to be killed.

How can you be merciful to someone who does not want and rejects your mercy?? Think about the use of the word. "He was begging for mercy", "she was at his mercy", "please have mercy on me!", etc. In all cases the person has to be receptive of the opportunity of forgiveness offered.

i understand this in the times when islam was young and under attack - that these people could be seen as traitors, and a very real liability to the community so they were considered deserving of death. but i don't understand it in modern times.

We are getting way off topic here so if you want to discuss this further I advise pm. But briefly, the punishment is not for one who makes a personal change in religious belief or convictions and does not make it a public affair. The punishment comes into play when someone openly renounces their faith, challenging the state and damaging the teamwork of the Muslim community. And it is not about the faith of others being weak as I have repeatedly mentioned before, it is about the strength of the community as a team in their relationship before God.

i do unerstand the concept of the door to repentance is always open and that god is merciful. but i have trouble understanding why, in a matter as grave as death, god does not mention it in the qur'an.

Why do you have this erroneous assumption that such a matter should be found in the content of the Qur'an?

but i do have trouble grasping certain concepts.

Learning is a process

Peace.

 

[snakelegs]

The Qur'an is divinely revealed in both meaning and words while the Ahadith are only divinely revealed in meaning and the words are those of Prophet Muhammad pbuh.?

actually, they are the words of prophet muhammad as reported by the companions (human beings - i realize that there is a whole science built around what is authentic and what is not - but that to, is according to human beings, who, unlike god, are fallible.
i had written:
"i do unerstand the concept of the door to repentance is always open and that god is merciful. but i have trouble understanding why, in a matter as grave as death, god does not mention it in the qur'an."
[COLOR][/SIZE]

Why do you have this erroneous assumption that such a matter should be found in the content of the Qur'an?

to tell you the truth, i am not sure why. if i tried to answer, i would just be repeating myself. but i do have a hard time grasping this one. so for now, it will be one more thing in my Things I Don't Understand file. thanks for your replies.
i have not read this whole thread yet, but i intend to because i find this topic very interesting.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

actually, they are the words of prophet muhammad as reported by the companions (human beings - i realize that there is a whole science built around what is authentic and what is not - but that to, is according to human beings, who, unlike god, are fallible.

One of the things you will find out once you read this thread is that the same people who preserved the Qur'an preserved the Ahadith - it was God who enabled that preservation and ensured that it would stand eternally. So it is inconsistent to say this is what the prophet pbuh says as reported by the companions but then not include the same interjection when speaking about the Qur'an. Both the Ahadith and the Qur'an are divinely protected; the companions were only the means by which this happened. Please see:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=434&section=indepth&subsection=Hadeeth

Peace!

 

[snakelegs]

hi ansar,
thanks for the link. a lot of info in that article - i learned a few things about the hadiths.
i also thought it was interesting that "hikma" - wisdom - comes from the same root as "hukam" - command. i never connected the 2 words.

 

[Abu Zakariya]

Since the issue of apostasy has come up, I would recommend everyone to read this article:

http://www.islamhouse.com/en/articles/apostasy.htm

 

[AceOfHearts]

Brother, I think the whole reason scholars say hadith-rejectors are non-muslims are because they deny or delibarately disobey verses of the Qur'an which tell us to obey the Prophet PBUH. If one was to delibarately reject the sayings of the prophet pbuh, surely he is rejecting the will of Allah. If you were a companion at the time of the prophet PBUH would you even think of rejecting him? So what difference does it make now that he is not here??

No, it is obey the "messenger", the "rasool", that is the wording used in the Qur'an through out, not obey the "prophet".

Think of it this way:

A messenger carries a message. And the messenger's message is the Qur'an. What you are doing is that you are taking 'obeying Allah', and 'obeying His messenger' as two seperate things, whereas in truth, they are but one.

The messenger was sent and narrated Allah's message, the Qur'an. For us, whomsoever follows and obeys the contents of the Qur'an, has automatically obeyed the messenger.

Allah narrates His message (the Qur'an) through His agency to mankind, the messenger. 'Allah and His messenger' are but one identity (so to speak). That is why 'Allah and His messenger' has also been identified as one in the following verses of the Qur'an:

"O Ye who believe! Put not yourselves forward before Allah and His Messenger; but fear Allah: for Allah is He Who hears and knows all things." [Qur'an 49:1]

and...

"And an announcement from Allah and His messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His messenger are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve." [Qur'an 9:3]

The Qur'an is making the announcement, yet this announcement is from both "Allah and His messenger", proving that they are both a single "identity", and that 'Allah and His messenger' both manifest in the Qur'an. The following verse also shows us that 'Allah and His Messenger' are one "identity":

"Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God; and whoever turns away, We have not sent you as a guardian over them." [Qur’an 4:80]

The Qur'an encompasses both God's message and His messenger's message. 'Obeying Allah and obeying the messenger' is therefore (for us) obeying a single source revealed for mankind, the Qur'an. When the physical messenger passes away, obedience is due to his message (the Qur'an) only.

When one obeys and follows what is in the Qur'an, s/he automatically obeys the messenger.

I hope the above is clear for all.

 

[Rou]

IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN HADITH YOU ARE NOT MUSLIM. The Quran sayis you must obey God and the Messenger, therefore as a Muslim you have an obligation to believe in sound authentic hadith. Why dont you go join the International Submitters or whatever the followers of Rashid Khilafah call themselves, either way those who do not believe in hadith are KAFAR!

And yes Muslims are to kill those who first believe in the oneness of God then do not believe in the Oneness of God. This is apart of Islam just like it is in Judaism and Christianity whether you like it or not.

but in islam those who have no compulsion are those outside of Islam, the people of the book and the kafars. those who leave islam have been infected with a disease of the heart and mind injected by secular materialist ideologies and powers.

for one brother calm down calling fellow muslims kafar is a very big statment...it is stated no where that if we dont follow the hadith that youare not a muslim?

i beleive in the quran without doubt but i am careful with the hadith as not all hadith can be trusted so it is better to becarful when studying the hadith...

the quran is the word of allah where as the hadith is the word of men who say they heard our prophet stating these things and indeed much can be true but we cannot what is true and what is not heance why only certain ones are trusted...so no one states not to beleive as it harms you not at the point where it does then that is a mans choice that does not make him kafar...

you state in the quran it states that follow allah and his prophet and indeed that is what muslims do...

it also states in the quran that the quran is allahs final message to us and the quran has all within it to sustain muslims in this world...

the hadiths cannot be guarnteed where as the quran can...

within the hadiths themselves prophet muhammed (PBUH) states that "write nothing of what i say down expect the quran!"

and this appears a few times in the hadith yet still the hadith exist?

a contradiction...there is not one contradiction in the quran....

also if we look at the hadith things are out of place for example...

there is a hadith that states it is forbidden to wear gold , or that if you die while wearing gold you will not receive the gold of jannat...

now...how detailed is the quran? as stated by allah the quran is the path for muslims and his full and final message..yet it mentions nothing of not wearing gold or to becareful with gold??

it but only mentions gold in the stages of not being greedy with such things as gold and silver or that we will wear gold braclets in jannat...

if the hadith were true then that would be a contradiction...

also you talk of salat as in namaz...the quran states many verses on praying so not quite sure where this has risen from?

no one states not to beleive the hadith as inded there is much truth but be careful as words of men are in the end words of men...