Debate: Why do some people completely reject hadith?

[Rou]

Thank you for complete ignoring my comments and repeating the sameincoherent argument founded upon your own conjecture. I thought you were actually sincere about learning but your comments indicate otherwise.I hate to repeat myself, but here goes: YES we DO know which hadiths precede other hadiths just like we know which verses precede other verses from what we call contextual or circumstantial evidence - you know, the stuff they use in court to determine the guilt of the accused! Perhaps if you studied the sciences relating to An-Nâsikh wal Mansûkh or Asbâb an-Nuzûl then you would realize it is the exact same process in determining the order of revelation when it comes to the Qur'an. The fallacy in your argument is that you want specific dates but you are forced to appeal to the same arbitrary historical periods when it comes to defending the verses of the Qur'an against anti-islamic allegations. I know because of the articles I've written on the subject. Study Usûl al-Fiqh, or the logic behind the deductions of jurisprudential rulings, and you will learn about how apparently conflicting texts are resolved, one way being through the examination of the historical contexts. This understanding of the texts transmitted through the companions elucidates for the historical context involved. For instance, the hadith of Abu Shah shows how the writing of hadith was permissable by the time of the conquest of Makkah. So there are numerous evidences pertaining to the historical context of the hadith which place one earlier on the timeline than the other.

Your reference to "hearsay" is only a reflection of your own uncertainty about the sciences behind the historical documentation of the early history of Islam, which has the greatest amount of information transmitted to us through authentic chains and written records in stark contrast to what you ignorantly labelled "hearsay".

No it is not; your looking for excuses to misquote an earlier hadith and deny its place on a greater historical timeline. I've provided you with the answer to your objection, the fact that you cling to it only represents a stubborn unwillingness on your part to adapt your views in accordance with that which is most logically coherent and stubstantiated.









Thank you for proving that you have failed to read even the most significant points in the article; Imam Nawawi said:

There are countless instructions from the Prophet instructing his companions to write down some ahadeeth.​

And the article proceeded to list several explicit unequivocal examples.

Why don't you answer the challenges that our earlier hadith-rejectors have failed to answer one after another? Why do you celebrate Eid? Why do you pray the number of raka'ah that you do? What argument do you have against someone who claims that "salah" in the Qur'an just means to meditate? And the countless other arguments that our previous ahadith-rejectors have left UNANSWERED throughout this thread. Hadith-rejectors thrive on self-imposed ignorance and irrational obstinacy.

You have clearly proven that you are uninterested in objective debate on this topic but are only looking for excuses to justify your own misguided ill-informed understanding of Islam.

One - i never said not to follow hadith nor rejected it..therefore to answer such questions as to why we would not follow eid or do salah are irrelevent to what i am trying to merely ask..perhaps it is better to understand that you are trying to strongly prove that the hadith are ALL to be followed where as i am stating that we should be careful of misguidence within hadith as they are third party and have never stated to reject them.

if you read what i wrote you will see i ASKED if they are dated or have kind of circumstance that shows there date you have explained they do thank you for answering my question...i would like to see an example of these..NO not to prove you wrong or the hadith wrong i have no intrest in proving you wrong or the haidth you and me are but a spec compared to allahs great religon i wish to see for my personal intrest and i would understand if you feel it is not ur duty to show such a thing!? no matter i can look myself if this is the case...however you seem to think that islam is in your backyard and i am trying to take it!? all muslims have a right to look into there religon without having to be bombareded with anger and being called ignorant for asking a question!?


Two - The state of mind in which you respond seems quite disturbing you are enraged you hate that i ask questions on the hadith and you answer with a disrespect that is the opposite of what our prophet taught and what is stated in the quran remember you are talking to a muslim brother not a kafir who is attacking your religon it is your ignorant view of what i am saying that has led to your anger and misguidence, do you really think by answering in such a manner you help spread clarity? do you actully beleive you are doing good by reacting the way you are to fellow muslims???

do you beleive that after reading your words i will take in the information that you have provided? or hear the anger and spite in your answers? these times are confusing enough without those who DO seem to hold information throwing it in the faces of there brothers instead of explaining it like a rational human being!

Now as stated the hadith have what you call dates of circumstance and that is what i wished to know about if they are strong facts then indeed they prove certain things in the hadith yet still they do not provide the clarity of certain hadiths that state not to write things down compared to the ones that state something may be written down for one man...

in plain our prophet pbuh was clear when he stated not to write things down apart from the quran and in other hadith states that ceratin things may be written down but weighing it out it seems the hadith that state not to write anything but the quran are stated in a clear form where as the others stating we may now write (all information as it is looked upon) are not so clear in there words...

also the hadith themselves at certain points seem unlclear no not beacuse of lack of understanding no compared to the clarity of the qurans verses and the fact that they are known to be the words of men which we all know are able to be misquoted and misinterprted...

on THAT basis it is better to take heed rather than take the hadith as allahs commands for the hadith compared to the quran are not close in any matter or form...

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I see you have not provided logical objections to my individual arguments but instead have vociferated emotional complaints?

One - i never said not to follow hadith nor rejected it..

Demonstrated your own uncertainty about your postion; your words:

and also that the quran is the full message for muslims??

without confirmation of date of that single hadith there is no real way of telling that our prophet pbuh ever wanted us to write such a thing as the hadith?

he clearly stated not to worship him or his image only allah and to follow allahs path that is stated in the quran!?

yet many talk of what the prophet pbuh did and how we should follow the hadith!?
​

Either the Qur'an alone is sufficient or we NEED other sources to follow our religion. When it comes to taking a position here, you waffle in your uncertainty. Your silence on my questions is a concession that we NEED the sunnah of the Prophet saws to practice our religion, but the implication of your comments is that Allah swt failed to preserve a source that we need for our religion and that one of the vital sources of our religion has been flooded with confusion! We seek refuge in Allah swt from such misguidance! If you agree that we need a source other than the Qur'an then you've shot yourself in the foot with all the red-herrings you made highlighted above in purple. You say that the Qur'an is the full message, we shouldn't worship Muhammad pbuh, and you ask with incredulity about people being asked to follow the Hadith...and then you affirm yourself that we are required to follow the Ahâdîth anyway in order to practice oru religion properly!! Allahu'l Musta'ân.

you are trying to strongly prove that the hadith are ALL to be followed

The problem is that you don't realize that we ALREADY have a detailed methodology in sorting out which hadith we need to follow and which hadith we don't. The whole science of Mustalah al-Hadîth is something you've neglected entirely though over a millenia of Islamic scholarship has scrutinised the Ahâdîth according to stringent conditions to ascertain their authenticity. What you are saying we should do, has already been done!! The scholars have already sorted through the Ahâdîth, examined each person in each chain of narration and they have written HUGE commentaries on each hadith, explaining exactly why it is or is not authentic and the fiqhî rulings that are derived from it. And you act as though we need to repeat the whole processs even though you are not in the least familiar with the original process!

if you read what i wrote you will see i ASKED if they are dated or have kind of circumstance that shows there date you have explained they do thank you for answering my question

You are always welcome, but the thing is - when I first answered it you repeated the same excuses and actually were trying to dismiss the answer, which isn't appropriate for one who wants to learn.

...i would like to see an example of these..

Okay, go to any commentary on the historical context of Ahâdîth - a good place to start would be the english commentary on the forty hadith of Imam Nawawi by Jamal Al-Din Zarabozo, found in the left link in my sig.

and being called ignorant for asking a question!?

I did not call you ignorant for asking a question. My comment was in reference to how you attempted to disregard the answer to your question by repeating the same excuses.

do you really think by answering in such a manner you help spread clarity?

Depending on the atittude of the questioner, I respond accordingly. Look around the forum at my answers - I am kind and helpful to those who want to learn, and I am stern with those who are looking for excuses to attack the religion of Islam.

yet still they do not provide the clarity of certain hadiths that state not to write things down

This is laughable. Why not?? Why do you claim that "still they do not provide clarity" when the answer has been explained in the most clear and lucid fashion. Can you provide a concrete rational objection to the answer I have provided on these Ahâdîth or can you only say that "it still is not clear" ?

where as the others stating we may now write (all information as it is looked upon) are not so clear in there words...

What is unclear about their wording??

I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth(haqq). So, do write. (Abu Dawood; Tabaqaat ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik ul Haakim)

If it is my hadeeth you may seek help from your hand besides your heart. (Daarimi)

One of the Ansaar (The Helpers) asked the Prophet if there was another way to preserve ahadeeth as he sometimes forgets them. The Prophet replied:

Seek help from your right hand, and pointed out to a writing. (Tirmidhi)
​

Raafi ibn Khadij (May Allaah be pleased with him) said: I said to the Prophet that we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied: You may write. There is no harm. (Tadreeb ar Raawi)

Take this with the fact that all the companions DID write many many Ahadith - how can anyone claim that they were all disobedient to the Prophet saws when he himself endorsed them?

 

[GARY]

do you beleive that after reading your words i will take in the information that you have provided? or hear the anger and spite in your answers? these times are confusing enough without those who DO seem to hold information throwing it in the faces of there brothers instead of explaining it like a rational human being!

LOL! I am sorry Ansar! I know I am likely not supposed to comment like this, but I just have to! This member that is accusing you of what he is accusing you of, is being quite hypocritical. This very member lashes out often at others, and berates people for holding different opinions or not understanding his point of view.
There is some evidence of this in a search of his past posts, but often the remarks are so awful, that more are deleted by mods than what are left. That's how often it happens, as I am sure you are aware.

LOL! I am sorry Ansar, as I know this only makes your job more difficult,
it was just too funny for me to not comment! LOL! Now Ansar is the bad guy!

Hypocrite....LOL!

 

[Rou]

I see you have not provided logical objections to my individual arguments but instead have vociferated emotional complaints?



Demonstrated your own uncertainty about your postion; your words:

and also that the quran is the full message for muslims??​

without confirmation of date of that single hadith there is no real way of telling that our prophet pbuh ever wanted us to write such a thing as the hadith?​

he clearly stated not to worship him or his image only allah and to follow allahs path that is stated in the quran!?​

yet many talk of what the prophet pbuh did and how we should follow the hadith!?​

Either the Qur'an alone is sufficient or we NEED other sources to follow our religion. When it comes to taking a position here, you waffle in your uncertainty. Your silence on my questions is a concession that we NEED the sunnah of the Prophet saws to practice our religion, but the implication of your comments is that Allah swt failed to preserve a source that we need for our religion and that one of the vital sources of our religion has been flooded with confusion! We seek refuge in Allah swt from such misguidance! If you agree that we need a source other than the Qur'an then you've shot yourself in the foot with all the red-herrings you made highlighted above in purple. You say that the Qur'an is the full message, we shouldn't worship Muhammad pbuh, and you ask with incredulity about people being asked to follow the Hadith...and then you affirm yourself that we are required to follow the Ahâdîth anyway in order to practice oru religion properly!! Allahu'l Musta'ân.

The problem is that you don't realize that we ALREADY have a detailed methodology in sorting out which hadith we need to follow and which hadith we don't. The whole science of Mustalah al-Hadîth is something you've neglected entirely though over a millenia of Islamic scholarship has scrutinised the Ahâdîth according to stringent conditions to ascertain their authenticity. What you are saying we should do, has already been done!! The scholars have already sorted through the Ahâdîth, examined each person in each chain of narration and they have written HUGE commentaries on each hadith, explaining exactly why it is or is not authentic and the fiqhî rulings that are derived from it. And you act as though we need to repeat the whole processs even though you are not in the least familiar with the original process!

You are always welcome, but the thing is - when I first answered it you repeated the same excuses and actually were trying to dismiss the answer, which isn't appropriate for one who wants to learn.

Okay, go to any commentary on the historical context of Ahâdîth - a good place to start would be the english commentary on the forty hadith of Imam Nawawi by Jamal Al-Din Zarabozo, found in the left link in my sig.

I did not call you ignorant for asking a question. My comment was in reference to how you attempted to disregard the answer to your question by repeating the same excuses.

Depending on the atittude of the questioner, I respond accordingly. Look around the forum at my answers - I am kind and helpful to those who want to learn, and I am stern with those who are looking for excuses to attack the religion of Islam.

This is laughable. Why not?? Why do you claim that "still they do not provide clarity" when the answer has been explained in the most clear and lucid fashion. Can you provide a concrete rational objection to the answer I have provided on these Ahâdîth or can you only say that "it still is not clear" ?

What is unclear about their wording??

I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth(haqq). So, do write. (Abu Dawood; Tabaqaat ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik ul Haakim)

If it is my hadeeth you may seek help from your hand besides your heart. (Daarimi)



One of the Ansaar (The Helpers) asked the Prophet if there was another way to preserve ahadeeth as he sometimes forgets them. The Prophet replied:

Seek help from your right hand, and pointed out to a writing. (Tirmidhi)​

Raafi ibn Khadij (May Allaah be pleased with him) said: I said to the Prophet that we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied: You may write. There is no harm. (Tadreeb ar Raawi)

Take this with the fact that all the companions DID write many many Ahadith - how can anyone claim that they were all disobedient to the Prophet saws when he himself endorsed them?

You seem not to understand or wish to accept your attiude towards your answer and are telling me that there is a reason for the way you answer and that i must accept this!?? unfortunatly this is but only your view and i suggest you learn to talk to people with some respect give when it is given to you your view of me attacking islam is only in your eyes allah knows what is in all our hearts and needs not you to judge people and react in a negative way to them beacuse you dont grasp that not all my questions were answered in your orignal post!?

as stated i wished to see if the hadith were dated i also wishe to see an example of some of the dating via circumstance that you refer to that is not attacking islam!? only in your eyes...and you state that you are kind etc etc that is good you do no one but yourself a favour by being good but i can tell you straight your form of arguing as you stated is not helpful tothose seeking there own answers you seem to strangley think you are doing a great deed by protecting your view that you help islam...brther you but make the opposition want to take a stubborn stance and you come across abusive i suggest calming down.

and you ask why i state these as you call them emotinal complaints beacuse a muslim leads by example that is our biggest weapon be good and spread this...by acting the way you are towards the hadith question you help no one you but only push younger muslims who read this thread and have doubt on hadith further away...think...that is all i ask...you state this to be an argument that was your view to em i was but talking with my brothers you have obviously made a strong point that that is not your view on the matter?

well you have answered my questions on circumstantiul evidence and as i stated i will look at this evidence for my own sake and the sake of my religon however the hadith as i have stated and repeted as you kindley pointed out are the words of men and nothing will ever change that and they are not directly from the companions but recorded by third parties on that basis i will always advise caution...

as we both know they are not as pure as the words of the quran nor is it stated in the quran to hear the word of any mortal over the words of allah...

but the hadith as you have stated seem to show diffrent...

Take this with the fact that all the companions DID write many many Ahadith - how can anyone claim that they were all disobedient to the Prophet saws when he himself endorsed them?

Again you are seeing something or reading that which i have not stated!? i state that many hadith are true but many seem not to run along with what the quran has said to us and contradictions can be seen..unlike the quran on that basis i advise caution and beleive not all hadith can be authentic as is known that many are not regarded as authentic and many are that is the issue that if some can be wrong then who are we mere humans to judge what the word of allah is and isnt who are we to state this one can be trusted and this cant we are but the creation of allah we have not his power of judgment yet we seem to think every hadith that was taken down is gaurnteed!??? i think not...

hopefully with more clarity on the circumstances that show the dates within this more clarity can be seen and if it cant again this is but my opinion i dont force it upon anyone..

however you seem quite adment that all haith must be followed otherwise that is not full islam that again is your opinion..not allahs command...

i suggest you look at debates as a brother trying to talk with another brother
for you do no favours to islam itself by your attitude and i have no wish to argue over faith in this way...

i insult no one nor disrespect so a little respect in the words used would not go astray...

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Lol bro Rou, thats why we look to the Noble Qur'an as our source and reject what is contradictory. Why is that HARD TO UNDERSTAND! I'm not referring to u. Its just insane so many pages went through over this issue, yet here we are....Ya Allah...
The point is we cannot reject the Ahadith as it is narrations of the Beloved Prophet, but also should use the Qur'an as our backup source.
Plain and simple! Unless someone thinks otherwise...

 

[ameen]

Re: Ahadith Rejection?

as-salamu'alaikum,

Using the Qur'an tell me how many rak'ah in each salat, what must be recited in salah, how do we shorten our salat when travelling?

I have already answered your question, which you even quoted in your reply, but you seem to repeat the same arguments yourself, while accusing others of doing this:

actually, if you read the Qur'an, you will find that the Qur'an actually does mention the important aspects of Salah, including the prostration, the bowing, the standing, qiblah, wudhu etc. So No - a person cannot just pray 'any way they like' - as they must be fulfilling these criteria for prayer mentioned in the Qur'an. Similarly, the manner of performing hajj is also outlined in the Qur'an. Furthermore, the manner of Salah is more easily and accurately passed on through generations, than are the words recorded in the hadith, because they were mostly passed on by 'mouth' - so their accuracy deteriorates throughout the decades.

In other words, the manner of Salah / Prayer has been passed on from the Prophet's time throughout the generations, and so it is still alive today. This should not be very difficult for you to accept, because you believe that even the 'word-of-mouth' can be very accurately passed on throughout the ages. You should therefore be able to realise that the Salah, which is an action - not 'word-of-mouth' - is more easily passed on because it is practised by millions of Muslims around the world, five times day, and on a daily basis.

Similarly, Hajj is practiced annually by millions of Muslims every year, so in addition to the details of Hajj outlined in the Qur'an, the manner of Hajj too is passed on throughout the years. As for your question about Zakat / Charity and Fasting in Ramadan, I don't see what you are asking for, because everything we are required to know about giving Charity and Fasting is already all there in the Qur'an. If the Qur'an does not mention a minimum percentage of wealth to be given as Zakat - which it does not - then Allah has deliberately left this open and has not set a permanent minimum percentage of wealth to be given as Charity.

The Quran tells you to cut off the hand of the theif. Will you cut it off of children? An insane man? Or a person that was starving to death so he had to steal food?

It is true that the Qur'an was the Only revelation sent to the Prophet, but this is not to say that the Prophet did not also have a brain. Therefore, the Prophet would not cut off the hands off children, or an insane man. Likewise, we too should use our logic and common-sense in judging these matters, which you agreed to recently in another thread:

And since you reject Ahadith, take Quran 4:3 as your evidence and your own common sense. Or will you reject common sense since it isnt mentioned in the Quran?

Exactly. Just by using our common-sense, it is enough to prevent us from cutting off the hands of an immature child, or an insane man. Furthermore, it makes more sense for Allah to leave such a judgement up to us, instead of fixing a minimum age for theft-punishment, because maturity and juvenility of children may vary according to society and era. For example, the age at which a child develops full understanding and sense of right and wrong may be different at different parts of the world, and in different time-zones.

Now let's take a look at the 'challenge' which has been repeatedly put forward several times in this thread, to try and prove the Divine authority of Hadith:

If you claim that there are no revelations to the Porphet Muhammad pbuh outside the Qur'an, then I have a challenge for you...

66:3 And when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a certain matter; and then, when she told of it, and God disclosed that to him, he made known part of it, and turned aside from part; then, when he told her of it, she said, 'Who told thee this?' He said, 'I WAS TOLD OF IT BY THE ALL-KNOWING, THE ALL-AWARE.'

The Prophet pbuh says in the above ayat that God informed him about what his wives had done (naba'aniyal aleem al-khabeer) : show me the ayat in the Qur'an where Allah swt disclosed this information. If you cannot then you must concede that the Prophet pbuh recieved other divine information not mentioned in the Qur'an.

In this verse, we learn that after the wife of the Prophet had disclosed a secret matter which was supposed to be between the Prophet and his wife, the Prophet told her that he had recieved this knowledge from Allah. Does this mean that the knowledge has to be in a revealed verse of the Qur'an? Of-course not, because when the Prophet recieved the knowledge, this may well be in the form of another person who has overheard the conversation of the wife, informing the Prophet about this incident, and all of this would be done by the Will of Allah. Therefore, it was Allah Who allowed the Prophet to find out about what had happened, and that is why the Prophet would tell his wife that he was told of it 'by the All-Knowing, the All-Aware'.

In support of this, please look at the following verse, which shows that although believers may perform an action, the actual source of this may be referred to as Allah:

"It was not you (believers) who killed them; but it was Allah Who killed them ; and you did not throw when you did throw, but it was Allah Who threw, so that He might confer on the believers a fair benefit from Himself. Surely, Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing." - (8:17)

Just like this, although a companion of the Prophet (a believer) may have informed the Prophet about the incident, the source of this action may also be referred to as Allah, because the incident occured by the permission of Allah, and it was Allah who willed that this companion would tell the Prophet. In light of all of this, it makes more sense that the Prophet did not tell his wife the specific name of the companion who had informed him, but instead decided to keep them anonymous, by simply telling her that he was told of it 'by the All-Knowing, the All-Aware'. This is because exposing the name of the companion to his wife can potentially develop a mistrust and a grudge between his wife and the companion.

Now that your questions and 'challenges' are being answered, my only ONE challenge to you still remains - and that is for you to please show me a single verse from the Holy Qur'an, which confers Divine authority to Hadith as a source of Law in Islam. You will find - contrary to meeting this end - that any interpretation of a verse which you bring forward, can be exposed of the deceit, trickery, and sheer guile, which are aimed towards diverting Muslims away from the Book of Allah (The Holy Qur'an), and rather devoting themselves to the books of Hadith.


wsalam

 

[Umar001]

It amazes me what arguements are brought forward, totally amazing.

 

[Hijrah]

It amazes me what arguements are brought forward, totally amazing.

i remember a comment in this thread lol

"i don't reject hadith, I just don't blindly follow them"

That's a characteristic of the qur'aaniyyah they just follow whatever it is of the sunnah that suits them.

 

[Umar001]

Well to me its abit amazing that someone would accept something that hadeeth does, but hadeeth does it more safely, anyhow, im gonna leave the space for those adressed.

 

[AceOfHearts]

I am 'Companion' recently changed to 'AceOfHearts'.

Peace be to all.

Ahmed,

You had to stop me from speaking by threatening to delete my post, because you know that the refutations I gave (and Ameen) to the twists of the Qur'anic verses you and Ansar put up are totally unrefutable.

How do you pray?

The authentic hadiths will not show you how to do Salah completely the way you do it today (an assuption which you and many make when they ask "how do we pray?"). There are some hadith that comment on certain aspects of Salah; however, not all the details of Salah exist even within the entire collection of hadith. According to the Qur'an, Prophet Ibraham also offered Salah at the Kabaa:

(Ibrahim said,) 'Our Lord! I have settled some of my offspring by Your Sacred House in an uncultivated valley. Our Lord! Let them perform Salah! Make the hearts of mankind incline towards them and provide them with fruits, so that hopefully they will be thankful.' [Qur'an 14:37]

(Ibrahim said,) 'My Lord" Make me and my descendants people who perform Salah. My Lord accept my prayer! [Qur'an 14:40]

As we can see, Salah was not something new with the Prophet Muhammad. All the Prophets before Prophet Muhammad also performed Salah, as well as their followers:

We revealed to Musa and his brother: 'Settle your people in houses in Egypt and make your houses places of worship and perform Salah and give good news to the believers.' [Qur'an 10:87]

('Isa said,) 'He commanded me to perform Salah, to give alms as long as I live' [Qur'an 19:31]

Also mention in the Book (the story of) Isma'il: He was (strictly) true to what he promised, and he was a messenger (and) a prophet. He used to enjoin on his people Salah and Charity, and he was most acceptable in the sight of his Lord. [Qur'an 19:54-55]

Allah made a covenant with the tribe of Israel and We raised up twelve leaders from among them. Allah said, ‘I am with you. If you perform Salah and give the alms, and believe in my Messengers and respect and support them, and make a generous loan to Allah, I will erase your wrong actions from you and admit you into gardens with rivers flowing under them. Any of you who disbelieve after that have gone astray from the right way.’ [Qur’an 5:12]

Salah was a familiar concept to the Arabs who heard the Qur'an back then, which was telling them to perform Salah to Allah alone, without associating any partners. For example, if I tell you to ride a bicycle, I assume you already know how to ride one. If I tell you that you should eat apples as it is good for you, you know what I am talking about. Likewise, the Qur'an tells us to perform the Salah for our benefit. We all know what Salah is.

Historically, even one of the earliest Surahs talk about Salah in the Qur'an, which suggests that Salah was a familiar ritual. Remember, those around the Kaa'baa, were Arabs who were trying to follow Prophet Ibraham who had lived and performed Salah at the same place, some of them were even descendants of him.

Then how is Salah learnt today? If you are like most, you learnt Salah through your parents or care-takers as you grew up. That is how it is really passed down - throughout the generations, as a ritual practice.

That is why we perform Salah with those who do their Salah:

Perform Salah and give the alms and bow with those who bow (in worship). [Qur'an 2:43]

Just like Maryam was commanded to do:

O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow with those who bow (in worship). [Qur'an 3:43]

People have been performing Salah at the sight of the Ka'baa from the days of Prophet Ibrahim, continuing through Prophet Muhammad, and continue to do so today in millions. :

And when we made the house (Kaaba) a place of return, a sanctuary for mankind: They took the place where Ibrahim stood (to pray) as a place of Salah. We contracted with Ibrahim and Isma’il: ‘Purify my house for those who circle it, and those who stay there, and those who bow and prostrate.’ [Qur’an 2:125]

The ritual of Hajj too is passed on in this manner, with the Qur'an detailing its essential components.

The Qur'an confirms the compulsory positions of Salah that must be there. Which is, standing, bowing (Rukuh) and prostration (Sujuud). These are all in the Qur'an. If we deviate from having these primary positions in Salah, then we would know that we are moving away from the correct Salah.

The good thing is that all Muslims who perform their Salah today, do it according to these positions. If you do your five daily Salah like this (as most do), you are doing it correctly. If you take the Qur'anic view, all the different madhabs' versions of Salah, are infact correct, although it is interesting that the secterian view entails ones own sect is right and all the other sects are wrong!

The Qur'an gives the Wudu sequence that has to be performed before Salah, as well as tayammum, including the prayer-times and Qiblah.

Since you claim that without the hadith we are lost with regards to Salah, here is my request to you: Please show me the hadiths which tell us the rakah sequence of 2, 4, 4, 3, 4.

Lastly to Ansar-al-Adl, yes, Rou may well be a sincere enquirer. Your wrong definition of being a sincere enquirer is that one has to accept your belief of hadith the way you do. You seem to behave reasonably politely so long as one is adhering to your ways, but become rude and disrespectful to others when they do not.

You, as well as Ahmed, often just speak with emotional outbursts. Can we not speak with logic and intellect, maturely and with respect without being rude? If you don't, you are only a detriment to your own cause, because you may move people further away from what you believe.

33:21 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

Why are we instructed to follow the Prophet pbuh's pattern of conduct if the Qur'an is our only source?

Indeed, in the messenger of God a good example (uswatun hasanatun) has been set for you for he who seeks God and the Last Day and thinks constantly about God. [Qur'an 33:21]

Allah also says about Prophet Ibrahim and his companions, that they had a good example for us to follow:

There has been a good example (uswatun hasanatun) set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides God. [Qur’an 60:40]

So do we look into books of Hadith of Prophet Ibrahim to follow his example? No, we look into the Qur’an where we find his example, and to no other source. Likewise, the very same applies to the Prophet Muhammad. This good example of both Prophet Muhammad and Prophet Ibrahim is to be followed by us according to what we learn about them in the Qur’an.

The truth can withstand any level of criticism. If what you follow is the truth from your Lord, you need not display insecurity in your faith by being aggressive and rude.

Peace be to all.

 

[Hijrah]

I am 'Companion' recently changed to 'AceOfHearts'.

Peace be to all.

Ahmed,

You had to stop me from speaking by threatening to delete my post, because you know that the refutations I gave (and Ameen) to the twists of the Qur'anic verses you and Ansar put up are totally unrefutable.

How do you pray?

The authentic hadiths will not show you how to do Salah completely the way you do it today (an assuption which you and many make when they ask "how do we pray?"). There are some hadith that comment on certain aspects of Salah; however, not all the details of Salah exist even within the entire collection of hadith. According to the Qur'an, Prophet Ibraham also offered Salah at the Kabaa:

(Ibrahim said,) 'Our Lord! I have settled some of my offspring by Your Sacred House in an uncultivated valley. Our Lord! Let them perform Salah! Make the hearts of mankind incline towards them and provide them with fruits, so that hopefully they will be thankful.' [Qur'an 14:37]

(Ibrahim said,) 'My Lord" Make me and my descendants people who perform Salah. My Lord accept my prayer! [Qur'an 14:40]

As we can see, Salah was not something new with the Prophet Muhammad. All the Prophets before Prophet Muhammad also performed Salah, as well as their followers:

We revealed to Musa and his brother: 'Settle your people in houses in Egypt and make your houses places of worship and perform Salah and give good news to the believers.' [Qur'an 10:87]

('Isa said,) 'He commanded me to perform Salah, to give alms as long as I live' [Qur'an 19:31]

Also mention in the Book (the story of) Isma'il: He was (strictly) true to what he promised, and he was a messenger (and) a prophet. He used to enjoin on his people Salah and Charity, and he was most acceptable in the sight of his Lord. [Qur'an 19:54-55]

Allah made a covenant with the tribe of Israel and We raised up twelve leaders from among them. Allah said, ‘I am with you. If you perform Salah and give the alms, and believe in my Messengers and respect and support them, and make a generous loan to Allah, I will erase your wrong actions from you and admit you into gardens with rivers flowing under them. Any of you who disbelieve after that have gone astray from the right way.’ [Qur’an 5:12]

Salah was a familiar concept to the Arabs who heard the Qur'an back then, which was telling them to perform Salah to Allah alone, without associating any partners. For example, if I tell you to ride a bicycle, I assume you already know how to ride one. If I tell you that you should eat apples as it is good for you, you know what I am talking about. Likewise, the Qur'an tells us to perform the Salah for our benefit. We all know what Salah is.

Historically, even one of the earliest Surahs talk about Salah in the Qur'an, which suggests that Salah was a familiar ritual. Remember, those around the Kaa'baa, were Arabs who were trying to follow Prophet Ibraham who had lived and performed Salah at the same place, some of them were even descendants of him.

Then how is Salah learnt today? If you are like most, you learnt Salah through your parents or care-takers as you grew up. That is how it is really passed down - throughout the generations, as a ritual practice.

That is why we perform Salah with those who do their Salah:

Perform Salah and give the alms and bow with those who bow (in worship). [Qur'an 2:43]

Just like Maryam was commanded to do:

O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow with those who bow (in worship). [Qur'an 3:43]

People have been performing Salah at the sight of the Ka'baa from the days of Prophet Ibrahim, continuing through Prophet Muhammad, and continue to do so today in millions. :

And when we made the house (Kaaba) a place of return, a sanctuary for mankind: They took the place where Ibrahim stood (to pray) as a place of Salah. We contracted with Ibrahim and Isma’il: ‘Purify my house for those who circle it, and those who stay there, and those who bow and prostrate.’ [Qur’an 2:125]

The ritual of Hajj too is passed on in this manner, with the Qur'an detailing its essential components.

The Qur'an confirms the compulsory positions of Salah that must be there. Which is, standing, bowing (Rukuh) and prostration (Sujuud). These are all in the Qur'an. If we deviate from having these primary positions in Salah, then we would know that we are moving away from the correct Salah.

The good thing is that all Muslims who perform their Salah today, do it according to these positions. If you do your five daily Salah like this (as most do), you are doing it correctly. If you take the Qur'anic view, all the different madhabs' versions of Salah, are infact correct, although it is interesting that the secterian view entails ones own sect is right and all the other sects are wrong!

The Qur'an gives the Wudu sequence that has to be performed before Salah, as well as tayammum, including the prayer-times and Qiblah.

Since you claim that without the hadith we are lost with regards to Salah, here is my request to you: Please show me the hadiths which tell us the rakah sequence of 2, 4, 4, 3, 4.

Lastly to Ansar-al-Adl, yes, Rou may well be a sincere enquirer. Your wrong definition of being a sincere enquirer is that one has to accept your belief of hadith the way you do. You seem to behave reasonably politely so long as one is adhering to your ways, but become rude and disrespectful to others when they do not.

You, as well as Ahmed, often just speak with emotional outbursts. Can we not speak with logic and intellect, maturely and with respect without being rude? If you don't, you are only a detriment to your own cause, because you may move people further away from what you believe.



Indeed, in the messenger of God a good example (uswatun hasanatun) has been set for you for he who seeks God and the Last Day and thinks constantly about God. [Qur'an 33:21]

Allah also says about Prophet Ibrahim and his companions, that they had a good example for us to follow:

There has been a good example (uswatun hasanatun) set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides God. [Qur’an 60:40]

So do we look into books of Hadith of Prophet Ibrahim to follow his example? No, we look into the Qur’an where we find his example, and to no other source. Likewise, the very same applies to the Prophet Muhammad. This good example of both Prophet Muhammad and Prophet Ibrahim is to be followed by us according to what we learn about them in the Qur’an.

The truth can withstand any level of criticism. If what you follow is the truth from your Lord, you need not display insecurity in your faith by being aggressive and rude.

Peace be to all.

With The revelations given to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) it abrogates everything else, did you know that statues were commonly used by some prophets, not for worshipping but still, to this day it is Haraam.

As far as salaah, how to perform it is strictly in the sunnah, does the qur'an tell you to say al-fatihah in every rak'ah give me a break

May Allah guide you, that's all I have top say...

 

[GARY]

I am happy to see that a certain someone has actually heard my words and has decided to finally be respectful when addressing others (I hope it is not only because the other is a mod), this will be a refreshing change.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Bro Ace, i have but one thing to say. At the start of ur post u said "How do you pray?" What i found odd is that you started with that specific title, yet u only gave verses that said that you "should" perform Salah. Only one said prostrate. That still does not answer the question. How do u know what to say? Does the Qu'ran say it? If so, then please provide a verse, then i can totally agree with you. You gave good info on how long it existed and where it started. I dont think anyone disagreed on the fact that your supposed to pray. If they did, then I most likely missed it.

The authentic hadiths will not show you how to do Salah completely the way you do it today (an assuption which you and many make when they ask "how do we pray?"). There are some hadith that comment on certain aspects of Salah; however, not all the details of Salah exist even within the entire collection of hadith.

No doubt that the Noble Qur'an tells you the preferred movements, but does it tell you what to say? How many each? How times? Thats why we say you cannot completely reject the Ahadiths and why u would use both the Qur'aan and Sunnah as the sources. Of course the Ahadiths aren't perfect like the Qur'an, thats why we use the Qur'an as our main source so we may know what contradicts the Qur'an. Well this is the most i have to say.

Take Care
Salaam Alaikum

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

You seem not to understand or wish to accept your attiude towards your answer and are telling me that there is a reason for the way you answer and that i must accept this!?? unfortunatly this is but only your view and i suggest you learn to talk to people with some respect give when it is given to you your view of me attacking islam is only in your eyes allah knows what is in all our hearts and needs not you to judge people and react in a negative way to them beacuse you dont grasp that not all my questions were answered in your orignal post!?

I suggest you review the discussion and re-read my posts since this issue has still eluded you. Your attitude towards learning will dictate the way in which you are given answers. By example, when a non-muslim asks me "how can you believe in a barbaric religion that commands you to chop hands off?!?!" the answer they get will get will differ manifestly from the answer to the question, "Could you explain the truth about the punishment of amputating hands and the conditions and wisdoms for this?"
Can you appreciate the difference between those two attitudes? Now with that in mind reflect on your own comments in this thread and the incredulity that punctuates every other sentence in your posts.

but i can tell you straight your form of arguing as you stated is not helpful

Thanks for your opinion but after several years of debates, dialogues and discussions with Muslims and Non-muslims on almost every topic I am quite comfortable with my methods. Maybe its time for you to reflect on your own.

you state this to be an argument that was your view to em i was but talking with my brothers you have obviously made a strong point that that is not your view on the matter?

What are you trying to say here? It is not clear at all what you are referring to.

out are the words of men and nothing will ever change that and they are not directly from the companions but recorded by third parties on that basis i will always advise caution...

No, only mursal hadiths are not directly from the companions so please look into the classifications before making such blunders.

as we both know they are not as pure as the words of the quran nor is it stated in the quran to hear the word of any mortal over the words of allah...

Double red-herrings. The Qur'an is of divine origin in both phrase and meaning while the Ahâdîth are divine in meaning since they come from the Prophet pbuh who was divinely inspired by God.

Take this with the fact that all the companions DID write many many Ahadith - how can anyone claim that they were all disobedient to the Prophet saws when he himself endorsed them?

Again you are seeing something or reading that which i have not stated!? i state that many hadith are true but many seem not to run along with what the quran has said to us and contradictions can be seen..

Again, you have missed the entire argument completely! Do I have to make it more simple or are you purposefully neglecting it? YOU claimed that the hadith forbidding writing was more clear and that the others were ambiguous (though you failed to substantiate this assertion). Now my argument is that all these companions DID write ahadith, so does this mean that they were all disobeying the Prophet's clear prohibition? How can anyone believe they were disobedient when the Prophet himself endorsed them?

unlike the quran on that basis i advise caution and beleive not all hadith can be authentic as is known that many are not regarded as authentic and many are that is the issue that if some can be wrong then who are we mere humans to judge what the word of allah is and isnt

Strawman. The scholars judge the authenticity of the hadith through text and transmission. Maybe you should learn about the process of authenticating a hadith before you advance the fanciful notion that it is arbitrary! You think these scholars just pick a label according to their whims? Go and look at the VOLUMES AND VOLUMES devoted to this science and scrutinising every single aspect of the Ahadith.

If the unanimous consensus of hadith scholars has always been erroneous, why don't you find this error for me and tell me what it is. Tell me which chain of narration for which hadith has this magical error that has eluded every hadith scholar for over a millenium. Note also that you are not saying that the entire consensus of hadith scholars agreed on one error for one hadith, you are saying that they have milliions of scholars have conspired over THOUSANDS of hadith! These millions of scholars over hundreds of years who spent their lives devoted to this study made so many blunders that Br. Rou with no background education in hadith sciences needs to correct them by suggesting beginning the whole process all over again? You can't just toss 1400 years of Islamic scholarship in the rubbish bin like that without providing strong evidence to expose these supposed massive errors in their works.

however you seem quite adment that all haith must be followed otherwise that is not full islam that again is your opinion..not allahs command...

It is not my opinion, it is what Allah says.


4:65 But no, by your Lord (O Muhammad), they have no Faith, until they make thee judge in ALL disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

Until you accept ALL of the prophetic teachings, you have NO faith. You can't say, "Well I'll follow this saying narrated from the Prophet, but not that other one of the same authenticity because I don't like it". Now you can ONLY justify rejecting the validity of a hadith if it falls short in its authenticity which is something that must be researched not arbitrarily claimed!

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Ahadith Rejection?

ameen,

actually, if you read the Qur'an, you will find that the Qur'an actually does mention the important aspects of Salah, including the prostration, the bowing, the standing, qiblah, wudhu etc. So No - a person cannot just pray 'any way they like' - as they must be fulfilling these criteria for prayer mentioned in the Qur'an.

All of these can be subjected to the same ta'weel which you apply on the other verses. For instance, the Qur'an says 'prostrate' but what if someone points out that it uses the same word for the sun, the trees, the moon, the stars and the mountains (22:18). So what if they say, "Oh we really just have to be in a constant state of submission to God like the sun and the moon and so we don't have to perform the five daily prayers". Likewise, they could place the same figurative interpretation on any word since your approach leaves the Qur'an completely open to the misinterpretations of masses (which is how so many verses get misquoted). Whereas taking Islam as it was revealed in the Qur'an, explained and implemented by the Prophet and as it was understood by the companions does not leave room for such baseless and imaginative distortions of this religion.
So according to your methodology there is no proof for any prayers.

And suppose they did not even go to the extreme of placing figurative interpretations on the verses but they just placed these actions out of order. Can anyone who just reads the Qur'an and reads these actions alluded to in references scattered throughout the text - can any such person come up with a coherent understanding of Salah? Of course not! So your words serve only to refute yourself here.

And what about the specifics of these actions? Take wudu. When is the water used for wudu classifed as taahir and when is it najis? There are HUGE fiqhi discussions on this issue. If someone uses a bucket of water to make their wudu can I make my wudu with the same water? If an animals comes and licks my wudu water can I still make wudu with that water?

Furthermore, the manner of Salah is more easily and accurately passed on through generations, than are the words recorded in the hadith, because they were mostly passed on by 'mouth' - so their accuracy deteriorates throughout the decades.

Wrong. If we abandon definitive texts and rely on just imitiating the actions of whoever we see then we would be lost in a myriad of confusing innovations and mistakes! We need a definitive reference to turn to, in order to ensure that we are practicing the religion properly.

In other words, the manner of Salah / Prayer has been passed on from the Prophet's time throughout the generations, and so it is still alive today.

So is witr three raka'ah with one tasleem and two tasha'hud? Or three raka'ah with two tasleems? or three raka'ah with one tasleem and one tasha'hud? Please answer with evidence.

is more easily passed on because it is practised by millions of Muslims around the world, five times day, and on a daily basis.

The vast majority of whom follow the hadith and even a madh'hab! If there were no definitive reference then the practices would never have been able to proliferate to such an extent.

Similarly, Hajj is practiced annually by millions of Muslims every year, so in addition to the details of Hajj outlined in the Qur'an, the manner of Hajj too is passed on throughout the years.

And yet we know how many deviations and innovations crept into the pilgrimage during jahiliyah until the time of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. We would have had the same fate if it were not that our sources have been preserved and in this case that entails the sunnah as well.

And you don't seem to realize the scope of the fiqhi differences involved here. There are many jurisprudential differences relating to issues of the Hajj and these are even with the scholar's use of hadith!

As for your question about Zakat / Charity and Fasting in Ramadan, I don't see what you are asking for, because everything we are required to know about giving Charity and Fasting is already all there in the Qur'an.

Is there zakat on jewellery? What nullifies one's fast? What are the conditions involved in fasting? What is the threshold value for zakat? These are all up to our whims?

If the Qur'an does not mention a minimum percentage of wealth to give as Zakat - which it does not - then Allah has deliberately left this open and has not set a permanent minimum percentage of wealth to be given as Charity.

So how much does the Islamic government take? Can someone give a piece of lint as zakat if they are a multi-millionare?

It is true that the Qur'an was the Only revelation sent to the Prophet, but this is not to say that the Prophet did not also have a brain. Therefore, the Prophet would not cut off the hands off children or an insane man.

What if you meet another hadith-rejector who believes we should cut off the hand for everyone who is above the age of 6 years. And what if you meet one who says that even if someone steals something as minor as a walnut, they should have their hand cut off? You can't just set the limits according to your whims because that completely deprives the verses of any meaning. And is this burglarly, theft, pick-pocketing or what? There are very strict conditions for the implementation of these punishments based on the ahadith but hadith-rejectors could do whatever they want and wreak havoc.

Exactly. Just by using our common-sense, it is enough to prevent us from cutting off the hands of an immature child, or an insane man.

What about a father who steals from his son or a wife who steals from her husband? Is that 'common-sense'? If you leave it up to people, people will do whatever they like at the expense of others' rights and will spread destruction.

Furthermore, it makes more sense for Allah to leave such a judgement up to us, instead of fixing a minimum age for theft-punishment, because maturity and juvenility of children may vary according to society and era. For example, the age at which a child develops full understanding and sense of right and wrong may be different at different parts of the world, and in different time-zones.

If you make that arbitrary then it opens the gates to injustice as you will chop off the hand of one fifteen year old and leave the hand of an eighteen year old who acts immature. Even all the western countries stipulate minimum ages for offences, but you come up with fantasies that don't apply in any society.

In this verse, we learn that after the wife of the Prophet had disclosed a secret matter which was supposed to be between the Prophet and his wife, the Prophet told her that he had recieved this knowledge from Allah. Does this mean that this knowledge has to be in a revealed verse of the Qur'an? Of-course not, because when the Prophet recieved the knowledge, this may well be in the form of another person (who has overheard the conversation of the wife) informing the Prophet about this incident, and all of this would be done by the Will of Allah. Therefore, it was Allah who allowed the Prophet to find out about what had happened, and that's why the Prophet would tell his wife that he was 'told of it by the All-Knowing, the All-Aware'.

You evidently haven't thought much about this since you are denying the ayaat of Allah. The wives of the Prophet saws were shocked when he asked them about it since it was only known between the two of them and that is why it was miraculous that the Prophet pbuh found out about it. Furthermore, your interpretation renders the verse incoherent since the Prophet says that he was informed by the ALL-KNOWING, ALL-AWARE! Why would he say this if it was just some random person who came and told him? That doesn't demonstrate the omniscience of God!! But he says that he was told by the one who knows and is aware of everything so immeidately he attributes the knowledge to miraculous means.

Now that your questions and 'challenges' are being answered, my only ONE challenge to you still remains - and that is for you to please show me a single verse from the Holy Qur'an, which confers Divine authority to Hadith as a source of Law in Islam.

You haven't answered ANY of my posts in which I have done this and you want to restart the whole discussion?!? You ignored my latest response to you four weeks ago in which I debunked your feeble attempt to deny the proof in the verse I provided:
http://www.islamicboard.com/528430-post174.html
I see quite clearly the tactics of hadith-rejectors. You periodically pop in with same rhetoric every month, get disgraced when your arguments are completely annihilated, lie low for another month, and then pop in with the exact same claims. I think you need to seriously reform your attitude if you hope for any intellectual growth in life.

 

[AceOfHearts]

Re: Ahadith Rejection?

I see quite clearly the tactics of hadith-rejectors. You periodically pop in with same rhetoric every month, get disgraced when your arguments are completely annihilated, lie low for another month, and then pop in with the exact same claims. I think you need to seriously reform your attitude if you hope for any intellectual growth in life.

Peace,

People have other things to do in life than just to sit on this thread looking for posts to respond to as soon as they come up.

We reply when it is convenient for us to do so around other schedules of life.

Peace be to you.

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

10: 39. Rather they deny what they cannot understand and when the explanation of it comes to them. Such is the denial of those who preceded them and look at the outcome of the deniers of the truth.


Imaam Ahmed (may Allah Most High have mercy upon him) has said “Whosoever rejects the hadeeth of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is on the brink of destruction”

Ishaaq ibn Raahuwayh said: “Whosoever has received information from the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) confirms its authenticity and then rejects it without knowledge (i.e evidence to the contrary) is a disbeliever (kaafir).”

Abu Muhammad Al-Barbahaari stated in his Sharhus-Sunnah “If you hear a man who discredits the traditions and does not accept them or he denies something of the information from the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam), then doubt his Islam for he is a man of the vilest thought and speech. He is in fact discrediting the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and his Sahaabah.” He also stated “Any one of the people of the qiblah is not expelled from the fold of Islam until he has rejected a verse of the Book of Allah the Mighty and Sublime or has rejected something from the traditions of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam), or prays to other than Allah or slaughters for other than Allah. If so, it is your duty to expel him from the fold of Islam.”

He further stated “Whosoever rejects a single verse from Allah's Book has rejected the Book in its entirety, and whosoever rejects ahadeeth of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) has certainly rejected the entirety of the traditions and is by that a disbeliever in Allah the Most Great.”

Ibraaheem ibn Ahmed ibn Shaaqilaa has said “Whoever opposes news [of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and insolently dares to reject what has been transmitted by a trustworthy narrator (adl) who has transmitted directly from someone who is also adl - with no break in the chain of narration and no criticism of transmitters (narrators) - has forced his way into the rejection of Islam”.

Ibn Hazm stated in Kitaabul Ahkaam “When there comes the text (of a hadeeth) and no two Muslims differ on its correctness and authenticity as having come from the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and being what he has in fact said, then it is obligatory to follow it. It (i.e. the sunnah) is the explanation of what Allah intends in the Qur'aan and clarification of what has been mentioned without details.”

 

[Rou]

Lol bro Rou, thats why we look to the Noble Qur'an as our source and reject what is contradictory. Why is that HARD TO UNDERSTAND! I'm not referring to u. Its just insane so many pages went through over this issue, yet here we are....Ya Allah...
The point is we cannot reject the Ahadith as it is narrations of the Beloved Prophet, but also should use the Qur'an as our backup source.
Plain and simple! Unless someone thinks otherwise...

No i agree this is indeed the case that the quran should be used to back up that which we follow in the hadith i have never stated otherwise...

to reject hadith is not what is being suggested by me no to tread carefully when accepting hadith as allahs command that is what i ask to be careful of...

overall i agree with your statment that if you reject ALL hadith then there is information there that will be lost however again if you accept without thinking or reffering to the quran on many hadith you will then be but a blind follower of information and that is all...

 

[Rou]

i remember a comment in this thread lol

"i don't reject hadith, I just don't blindly follow them"

That's a characteristic of the qur'aaniyyah they just follow whatever it is of the sunnah that suits them.

indeed i beleive that may have been my comment..it amazes me that many who claim to beleive in allah souly and follow only his path and never to follow idols or to idelise anyone but allah take so easy to words that are third party and question them not even for a second?

that amazes me..that to follow that what was written by allahs command and that which was written by the words of men are two diffrent things and to take them souly as allahs command without thinking about them even for a second indeed this amazes me....

no one is saying you have not looked at them what i am stating is that many seem to find it strange that they are questioned!??

think....

if millions were taken down and then only a few were trusted what does that tell you!??

that there is easily a chance of mischief if many wanted and that we must take heed when looking at such things...

 

[Rou]

I suggest you review the discussion and re-read my posts since this issue has still eluded you.(Your attitude towards learning will dictate the way in which you are given answers. By example, when a non-muslim asks me "how can you believe in a barbaric religion that commands you to chop hands off?!?!" the answer they get will get will differ manifestly from the answer to the question, "Could you explain the truth about the punishment of amputating hands and the conditions and wisdoms for this?"
Can you appreciate the difference between those two attitudes? Now with that in mind reflect on your own comments in this thread and the incredulity that punctuates every other sentence in your posts.

Thanks for your opinion but after several years of debates, dialogues and discussions with Muslims and Non-muslims on almost every topic I am quite comfortable with my methods. Maybe its time for you to reflect on your own.

What are you trying to say here? It is not clear at all what you are referring to.

No, only mursal hadiths are not directly from the companions so please look into the classifications before making such blunders.

Double red-herrings. The Qur'an is of divine origin in both phrase and meaning while the Ahâdîth are divine in meaning since they come from the Prophet pbuh who was divinely inspired by God.


Again, you have missed the entire argument completely! Do I have to make it more simple or are you purposefully neglecting it? YOU claimed that the hadith forbidding writing was more clear and that the others were ambiguous (though you failed to substantiate this assertion). Now my argument is that all these companions DID write ahadith, so does this mean that they were all disobeying the Prophet's clear prohibition? How can anyone believe they were disobedient when the Prophet himself endorsed them?

Strawman. The scholars judge the authenticity of the hadith through text and transmission. Maybe you should learn about the process of authenticating a hadith before you advance the fanciful notion that it is arbitrary! You think these scholars just pick a label according to their whims? Go and look at the VOLUMES AND VOLUMES devoted to this science and scrutinising every single aspect of the Ahadith.

If the unanimous consensus of hadith scholars has always been erroneous, why don't you find this error for me and tell me what it is. Tell me which chain of narration for which hadith has this magical error that has eluded every hadith scholar for over a millenium. Note also that you are not saying that the entire consensus of hadith scholars agreed on one error for one hadith, you are saying that they have milliions of scholars have conspired over THOUSANDS of hadith! These millions of scholars over hundreds of years who spent their lives devoted to this study made so many blunders that Br. Rou with no background education in hadith sciences needs to correct them by suggesting beginning the whole process all over again? You can't just toss 1400 years of Islamic scholarship in the rubbish bin like that without providing strong evidence to expose these supposed massive errors in their works.

It is not my opinion, it is what Allah says.


4:65 But no, by your Lord (O Muhammad), they have no Faith, until they make thee judge in ALL disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

Until you accept ALL of the prophetic teachings, you have NO faith. You can't say, "Well I'll follow this saying narrated from the Prophet, but not that other one of the same authenticity because I don't like it". Now you can ONLY justify rejecting the validity of a hadith if it falls short in its authenticity which is something that must be researched not arbitrarily claimed!

ok brother it seems you know the science i know nothing and much seems to but elude me!??

Brother you seem adment this is a fight to be won by either you or me!? i see it not in the same manner i do not fight with my own brothers over the belif of things i merely ask questions yet you seem to think i am out to prove the hadith fake and you wrong!?

This is no game to me no is it about winning thank you for your insight on the matter brother for if this is a game then you win...for me i will continue to look into my religon and to learn further without blindfolds or pressure from other muslims to beleive that which they have been programmed to beleive and then call it the will of allah..and i suggest you do relook how you present yourself to fellow muslims and non muslims for you help no one in this way..

you cannot beat anyone in to being a muslim...

you will but beat them into defince...

lead by example by being a good muslim and what is a good muslim well he who claims he is,is but a fool the judgments of humans are but a joke that is for allah to decide and we will see one day i guess...



I wish no insult to you brother but it is comments as such below that lead me to the belif that your view of what is happening is quite diffrent to what is really going for you are not being attacked and nor is there anyone out to take what you seem to think is your religon alone therefore it is better
not to argue in such a way....Thank you for your time...


"I see quite clearly the tactics of hadith-rejectors. You periodically pop in with same rhetoric every month, get disgraced when your arguments are completely annihilated, lie low for another month, and then pop in with the exact same claims. I think you need to seriously reform your attitude if you hope for any intellectual growth in life"