Decline of Modesty

[Latitudinarian]

You bet. It was called burlesque. Burlesque was popular in small part because of the scantily clad women.

You can also look up famous celebrities of the past like Gypsy Rose Lee

No doubt, there have always been forms of exotic entertainment like burlesque. I'm not sure what the 1870's versions of hardcore porn or on stage sex would be but I suspect they didn't go that far back then. Also, back in those days, I don't think it was common for the female masses to copy the scantily clad women in their everyday lives, unless they were prostitutes.

Over the past 25 years the divorce rate has actually been in a fairly constant decline in the US.
As for the others the reason is the advance in technology, not necessarily a decline in morals.

Go figure about the divorce rate - I wasn't aware that it was declining.

I agree that technology plays a bit part in the decline of modesty. Videos, images and text can reach the masses fast and the masses are able to be much more candid about themselves to willing eyes.

 

[tango92]

threads like this are themselves immodest......

 

[Latitudinarian]

threads like this are themselves immodest......

Wow, that's quite the statement. I can only guess that some of the words used in this thread have made you uncomfortable. Hopefully you're not offended by the indecency here.

 

[syed_z]

threads like this are themselves immodest......

thank you very much...

 

[S<Chowdhury]

I actually enjoy a well-produced Bollywood film and have come to think of the singing and dancing as intrinsically and uniquely part of such movies. The older movies come across as too archaic to hold my attention.
Just out of curiosity, from your perspective, as a Muslim, do women with hijab draw your attention more or less than women without hijab?

No the new bollywood films are filth but anyway uhm yeah women not with hijabs particularly but niqabs, full face veils and so on do stand out from the crowd so you do defo notice it.

 

[Hiroshi]

I saw the news on television last night about France moving to ban the niqab. Other countries are following suit aren't they? I wonder where this is all leading. There is a mosque in Wembley near to where I work and Muslims there were handing out leaflets calling for public demonstrations over what they see as an outrage. I don't think that all this bad feeling is going to die down quickly.

 

[Latitudinarian]

I saw the news on television last night about France moving to ban the niqab. Other countries are following suit aren't they? I wonder where this is all leading. There is a mosque in Wembley near to where I work and Muslims there were handing out leaflets calling for public demonstrations over what they see as an outrage. I don't think that all this bad feeling is going to die down quickly.

In Quebec, Bill 94 was brought forward by the government to ban the burqa and niqab in dealings with government services and for provincial employees. Reasons cited for the proposal include the importance of identifiability in the public sector, the protection of gender equality, the avoidance of unreasonable accommodation and the respect for common values. Most secular people I know of are actually opposed to any outright ban on the burqa since it violates the individual's freedom of expression but, at the same time, there seems to be support for veil restrictions when it comes to security issues, aligned with what Quebec is doing.

 

[Hiroshi]

I think that there is need for reasonableness and common sense on both sides. Nobody wants their freedom taken away. But the problem with security and the importance of identification is a most serious concern in today's worsening world. I saw a woman wearing a niqab who was being interviewed on the television. She said that she would continue to wear the dress even if it meant getting arrested because of her conscience. But why is a matter of conscience when the niqab appears to be a cultural thing? Surely the Qur'an does not insist that the garment be worn. If it did then all Muslim women would wear it.

 

[Ramadhan]

Surely the Qur'an does not insist that the garment be worn. If it did then all Muslim women would wear it.

You reasoning is illogical (this is aside from the ruling whether niqaab is compulasory or not).

Just because it is said in the Qur'an that muslims must do certain thing, does not automatically mean that all muslims will do it.
Example: Allah SWT in the Qur'an tells repeatedly to avoid zina and has promised great punishments for it, and yet many muslims have fallen into it.

 

[Latitudinarian]

You reasoning is illogical (this is aside from the ruling whether niqaab is compulasory or not).

Just because it is said in the Qur'an that muslims must do certain thing, does not automatically mean that all muslims will do it.
Example: Allah SWT in the Qur'an tells repeatedly to avoid zina and has promised great punishments for it, and yet many muslims have fallen into it.

I was under the impression that there is some ambiguity as to whether even the headscarf is required of female Muslims. From what I read, in the early days of Islam, your Prophet required women to wear hijab in his presence but this didn't apply to others. In the Quran, I believe the verses say things along the lines of "cover your shame", "guard your modesty, covering your bosoms" and "draw your cloaks around you", but none of that definitively states you need to cover your face or your head for the matter. Could someone clarify that?

 

[Hiroshi]

You reasoning is illogical (this is aside from the ruling whether niqaab is compulasory or not).

Just because it is said in the Qur'an that muslims must do certain thing, does not automatically mean that all muslims will do it.
Example: Allah SWT in the Qur'an tells repeatedly to avoid zina and has promised great punishments for it, and yet many muslims have fallen into it.

Let's say then for arguments sake that some people's consciences prompt them to act in a better way than others. I still don't see the virtue of covering a woman's entire face when she is in public. And I don't know any command in the Qur'an that says she has to do that.

 

[Ramadhan]

Let's say then for arguments sake that some people's consciences prompt them to act in a better way than others. I still don't see the virtue of covering a woman's entire face when she is in public. And I don't know any command in the Qur'an that says she has to do that.

Thankfully Islam is not operating under your rules, whether you find them virtuous or not is inconsequential.

As a christian, instead of making enquiries about facets of islam you are ignorant of, you have been making (laughable) statements about Islam as if you know Islamic jurisprudence which you do not at all.

So, since you are acting as if you are an expert in ushool fiqh, can you please tell me how a woman should be dressing according to the teachings of prophet Muhammad SAW as ordained by Allah SWT?

The burden is on you since you made the claim as above.

 

[Lynx]

Let's say then for arguments sake that some people's consciences prompt them to act in a better way than others. I still don't see the virtue of covering a woman's entire face when she is in public. And I don't know any command in the Qur'an that says she has to do that.

To put in my two cents, the virtue of covering the face in public is the same as not walking around in a mini skirt or naked or in your underwear. For some people, what is acceptable to display to the public is nothing; that is, for some women they honestly think that their face should only be seen by family, other women, and/or the husband. In other words, it's the same as not walking around in underwear for some women who genuinely believe it's immodest to show their face. Moreover, you're right there's no explicit verse in the Quran that says to wear face veil but on some interpretations of the verses that tell women to cover, some scholars have said that a woman should cover everything including the face except an eye (or two in some interpretations that I've read). But even if there is no verse that commands to wear the full veil, it is generally accepted by Muslims, and Muslims here can verify this, that it's a good act to wear the face veil and it further shows one's devotion to modesty. Having said that, I don't think any reasonable person who believes in democratic freedoms that are supposed to be enjoyed in the Western democratic countries ought to support the outright ban of Niqabs. If there's a security issue in some parts of society then at the very most, there could be a law to ban women from wearing it in those particular places if there is no other way to get around it.

@OP

I think the root of the decline of modesty is that the moral outlook has changed amongst the people, or to put it in a different way, the common morality has changed. People are now consequentalists in that they measure the rightness or wrongness of actions based on the consequences of those actions. Hence, actions and behavior like casual sex or wearing revealing or 'immodest' clothes don't necessarily harm anyone and so people are starting to find that 'hey, there's nothing wrong with being open about sexuality'. I suspect the reason for this shift of morality is the decline of religion which has traditionally promoted more duty based & divine command type ethics. Consequentalism appears really convincing these days especially when our governments essentially work in this cost-benefit framework.

 

[Latitudinarian]

I think the root of the decline of modesty is that the moral outlook has changed amongst the people, or to put it in a different way, the common morality has changed. People are now consequentalists in that they measure the rightness or wrongness of actions based on the consequences of those actions. Hence, actions and behavior like casual sex or wearing revealing or 'immodest' clothes don't necessarily harm anyone and so people are starting to find that 'hey, there's nothing wrong with being open about sexuality'. I suspect the reason for this shift of morality is the decline of religion which has traditionally promoted more duty based & divine command type ethics. Consequentalism appears really convincing these days especially when our governments essentially work in this cost-benefit framework.

I agree that the public idea of morality has shifted more towards consequentialism. There are many factors behind this transformation, including grassroots social and ideological movements, highly accessible communications technologies and mediums, the promotion of undaunted consumerism as well as the influence of the mainstream media. While consequentialism is distinctly benign compared to the more traditional systems of moral doctrine, it has a number of flaws which I'll try to outline briefly.

Besides the standard criticism of it's lack of guidance for what one ought to do, the first problem I have with it is that actions usually do effect other people even when the effects are not immediately apparent. For example, a couple may think that making out on a crowded subway doesn't hurt anyone but they aren't taking into account the psychological effects on a child who witnesses such an overt display of public affection. The second problem I have with it is that doesn't seem to address individual integrity for it's own sake; I think that actions helping or harming only the actor ought to be considered in the moral sphere as well as those that effect others. For example, self-abuse is immoral regardless of it's external effects, as far as I'm concerned. Finally, Utilitarian systems while practical, don't have much regard for intentions yet there's a world of difference between well-meaning and malicious motives.

 

[Hiroshi]

To put in my two cents, the virtue of covering the face in public is the same as not walking around in a mini skirt or naked or in your underwear. For some people, what is acceptable to display to the public is nothing; that is, for some women they honestly think that their face should only be seen by family, other women, and/or the husband. In other words, it's the same as not walking around in underwear for some women who genuinely believe it's immodest to show their face. Moreover, you're right there's no explicit verse in the Quran that says to wear face veil but on some interpretations of the verses that tell women to cover, some scholars have said that a woman should cover everything including the face except an eye (or two in some interpretations that I've read). But even if there is no verse that commands to wear the full veil, it is generally accepted by Muslims, and Muslims here can verify this, that it's a good act to wear the face veil and it further shows one's devotion to modesty.

Fair enough, I guess. But I have three daughters and I know that the natural feminine desire is to look pretty to other people. Obviously this can lead to extremes that should be avoided such as mini skirts and revealing styles of dress. But to cover even the face completely seems to go to the other extreme which is equally unwelcome.

I think the root of the decline of modesty is that the moral outlook has changed amongst the people, or to put it in a different way, the common morality has changed. People are now consequentalists in that they measure the rightness or wrongness of actions based on the consequences of those actions. Hence, actions and behavior like casual sex or wearing revealing or 'immodest' clothes don't necessarily harm anyone and so people are starting to find that 'hey, there's nothing wrong with being open about sexuality'. I suspect the reason for this shift of morality is the decline of religion which has traditionally promoted more duty based & divine command type ethics. Consequentalism appears really convincing these days especially when our governments essentially work in this cost-benefit framework.

Very true.

 

[Hiroshi]

Thankfully Islam is not operating under your rules, whether you find them virtuous or not is inconsequential.

As a christian, instead of making enquiries about facets of islam you are ignorant of, you have been making (laughable) statements about Islam as if you know Islamic jurisprudence which you do not at all.

So, since you are acting as if you are an expert in ushool fiqh, can you please tell me how a woman should be dressing according to the teachings of prophet Muhammad SAW as ordained by Allah SWT?

The burden is on you since you made the claim as above.

Styles of dress change with different countries and cultures. But according to the Bible a woman should dress themselves with modesty and soundness of mind and in a way that befits women professing to reverence God (1 Timothy 2:9-10). That should be sufficient guidelines without imposing strict rigid rules of dress.

 

[Lynx]

Besides the standard criticism of it's lack of guidance for what one ought to do, the first problem I have with it is that actions usually do effect other people even when the effects are not immediately apparent. For example, a couple may think that making out on a crowded subway doesn't hurt anyone but they aren't taking into account the psychological effects on a child who witnesses such an overt display of public affection. The second problem I have with it is that doesn't seem to address individual integrity for it's own sake; I think that actions helping or harming only the actor ought to be considered in the moral sphere as well as those that effect others. For example, self-abuse is immoral regardless of it's external effects, as far as I'm concerned. Finally, Utilitarian systems while practical, don't have much regard for intentions yet there's a world of difference between well-meaning and malicious motives.

there's much truth in what you say. i am not a consequentialist myself but i do think that consequentalism is the only practical ethic for politics in a democratic society. this is kind of going off topic though !

Fair enough, I guess. But I have three daughters and I know that the natural feminine desire is to look pretty to other people. Obviously this can lead to extremes that should be avoided such as mini skirts and revealing styles of dress. But to cover even the face completely seems to go to the other extreme which is equally unwelcome.

Well I am a conservative person myself when it comes to views of how modest one should be and I do think face veil is somewhat extreme . But I imagine we agree that a woman should have every right to wear a face veil if she wants to so long as it doesn't pose a real security threat to everyone else.

 

[Ramadhan]

Styles of dress change with different countries and cultures. But according to the Bible a woman should dress themselves with modesty and soundness of mind and in a way that befits women professing to reverence God (1 Timothy 2:9-10). That should be sufficient guidelines without imposing strict rigid rules of dress.

Are you for real?

This is ISLAMIC Board.

and muslims do not take bible as our guidance, so no matter how many biblical verses you throw out there (most bible verses are not authentic, by the way), it does not change one bit guidance for dressing.

Anyway, mary (which christians consider the mother of god) wore such garments that is she lived today, people would think she is a MUSLIM.

Just a bit of advice:
you keep spewing forth biblical verses outside the comparative religion section, and see how soon you will disappear from this board.

 

[aadil77]

Styles of dress change with different countries and cultures. But according to the Bible a woman should dress themselves with modesty and soundness of mind and in a way that befits women professing to reverence God (1 Timothy 2:9-10). That should be sufficient guidelines without imposing strict rigid rules of dress.

Majority of christians even fail to do that, I think you're already aware of biblical verses telling women to cover their hair

btw although we believe in the previous scriptures, we do not take the bible as completely the truth - so please do not quote from it unless its in the comparitive religion section - remember its islamicboard.com

 

[Hiroshi]

Majority of christians even fail to do that, I think you're already aware of biblical verses telling women to cover their hair

btw although we believe in the previous scriptures, we do not take the bible as completely the truth - so please do not quote from it unless its in the comparitive religion section - remember its islamicboard.com

Are you for real?

This is ISLAMIC Board.

and muslims do not take bible as our guidance, so no matter how many biblical verses you throw out there (most bible verses are not authentic, by the way), it does not change one bit guidance for dressing.

Anyway, mary (which christians consider the mother of god) wore such garments that is she lived today, people would think she is a MUSLIM.

Just a bit of advice:
you keep spewing forth biblical verses outside the comparative religion section, and see how soon you will disappear from this board.

I will take your advice, both of you. I was not aware that Islamic Board were so offended by quotations the Bible. The rules that I read only mentioned that things like insulting and obscene language were unacceptable.

But, aadil77, I don't know of any biblical verses that tell women to cover their hair (a slightly different issue) although it discourages showy, expensive and elaborate styles of braiding. Can you show me (without breaking any more rules)?