Demographic time bomb

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Nice sob story but EVERY IMMIGRANT story is similar or far worse many peoples great grandparents were in a similar sitiution and now lets just say They are doing better then before.

See my posts above.

I used the story to make a point not to gain sympathy for my long dead grandparents. The point was about being responsible parents and citizens and restricting yourself to the number of children that you can provide for. It is a fact that better educated more affluent parents have less children that uneducated poor people - why is that?
 
I suggest that (immigrant or not) parents would be more likely to provide greater support and put in greater resources to a smaller family rather than a large family and that if muslims concentrated their efforts on baby production rather than accruing prosperity, they may be lots of them but they are going to remain poor, uneducated, unemployed and angry.

a bit like the people who have small families or even better no children so they can live in there hednostic lifestyle of pre martial sex and drinking heavily on a saturday night and teenage pregancies - lets not forget about children who dont even know who there fathers are - then they complian that the immigrants are taking over!! grow up!
 
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See my posts above.

I used the story to make a point not to gain sympathy for my long dead grandparents. The point was about being responsible parents and citizens and restricting yourself to the number of children that you can provide for. It is a fact that better educated more affluent parents have less children that uneducated poor people - why is that?

not true at all - I know many families who have large families and far better off then small families as the big families actually help each other out and have a stronger bound - they even have more man power making them more richer especaiily if its a family business which is what most immigrants do later on - not the case with small ones - soon as the kids grow they leave and dump there parents in an old peoples home and never bother to visit them - they dont want the burden want to stay "free" with there hednositc lifestyle.
 
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lol 'Leicester ghetto' if you drive for 10 mins you'll be out that 'ghetto' and into areas with houses costing close to a million and more, with muslims living there

you know even in the 'ghettos' you get well off muslims even millionaires living there purely to be closer to the many mosques

the point is people actually want to live there, they'll move from fancy areas to be in that muslim community

Entirely so and your post goes some way to confirm the fears expressed by that author of the article in the Telegraph – a Demographic Time Bomb. You confirm that some Muslims don’t want to integrate, they want to live amongst those of the same culture (and I suspect same ethnic origin) and they want to preserve and reinforce the cultural values they or their parents brought with them. So what, you might ask? Because they came from a country that failed and on the presumption that the people themselves are as bright and industrious as anybody else, it was probably those cultural values that caused the failure and they want to import them into my country – that’s the ‘time bomb.’
 
Entirely so and your post goes some way to confirm the fears expressed by that author of the article in the Telegraph – a Demographic Time Bomb. You confirm that some Muslims don’t want to integrate, they want to live amongst those of the same culture (and I suspect same ethnic origin) and they want to preserve and reinforce the cultural values they or their parents brought with them. So what, you might ask? – that’s the ‘time bomb.’

A bit like British cultural values that are trying export there hedonism of of binge driniking, mini skirts and greedy people - maybe its the culture and its greedy and hoarding nature. - Two can play at that game - your remarke is incredibly offences and racist - specifically this part

Because they came from a country that failed and on the presumption that the people themselves are as bright and industrious as anybody else, it was probably those cultural values that caused the failure and they want to import them into my country

You ran away from your country for greed - you wanted a tax benefit - you ran away anyway.

Th reasons why Mulsims stay in specfically area has been sated before here

Yeah thats another reason why people live in Ghettos

1 - near mosques
2 - safety like most ethnic minorities.

But ofcourse blame the immigrants even though you ran away from the UK!
 
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your remark is incredibly offences and racist - specifically this part

Hmmm – if identifying a failed country as a failure and saying that it is the citizens of that country that caused the failure is racist then I hold my hands up – it’s still true though.

A bit like British cultural values that are trying export there hedonism of binge drinking mini skirts and greedy people - maybe it’s the culture and its greedy and hoarding nature.

I’m not so sure that these feature of the cultural character of the Brits is all bad. They were the same people, few in number, that won an empire; that beat the Germans in Normandy, the French at Waterloo, the Spanish Armada, the Boers in SA and numerous others and who, even in defeat find glory in charging the Russian cannons at Balaclava; those binge drinking thugs are the same men that when told to charge those guns said, “ours not to reason why, ours not to make reply, ours just to do and die.” Yes they are mindless drunken thugs and I wouldn’t p*** on them if they were on fire but I also would want to be on the opposing side if they were called up and formed into an army.

You ran away from your country for greed - you wanted a tax benefit - you ran away anyway.

You do yourself a disservice - please try and stick to rational debate.
 
Hmmm – if identifying a failed country as a failure and saying that it is the citizens of that country that caused the failure is racist then I hold my hands up – it’s still true though.



I’m not so sure that these feature of the cultural character of the Brits is all bad. They were the same people, few in number, that won an empire; that beat the Germans in Normandy, the French at Waterloo, the Spanish Armada, the Boers in SA and numerous others and who, even in defeat find glory in charging the Russian cannons at Balaclava; those binge drinking thugs are the same men that when told to charge those guns said, “ours not to reason why, ours not to make reply, ours just to do and die.” Yes they are mindless drunken thugs and I wouldn’t p*** on them if they were on fire but I also would want to be on the opposing side if they were called up and formed into an army.



You do yourself a disservice - please try and stick to rational debate.


Hmmm – if identifying a failed country as a failure and saying that it is the citizens of that country that caused the failure is racist then I hold my hands up – it’s still true though.

How is that true at all and thats not how you put it - you blamed the culture and left out political, colonalists (lets not forget about that you are a Brit!) economic etc etc - your blaming the people living in the UK for the failure of the other country??? which is very racist/imperilaistic and preety much stupid -

Its a bit like me blaming you for the UKs problem because you ran away from the UK. Immigrants!

I’m not so sure that these feature of the cultural character of the Brits is all bad. They were the same people, few in number, that won an empire; that beat the Germans in Normandy, the French at Waterloo, the Spanish Armada, the Boers in SA and numerous others and who, even in defeat find glory in charging the Russian cannons at Balaclava; those binge drinking thugs are the same men that when told to charge those guns said, “ours not to reason why, ours not to make reply, ours just to do and die.” Yes they are mindless drunken thugs and I wouldn’t p*** on them if they were on fire but I also would want to be on the opposing side if they were called up and formed into an army.

This is nonsesne anyway - the people of the past would be shocked at the people of today in any country. How do you know they were the same people have met the people in SA - you know the aprthied or the conquest of India or dumping the convicts in australia, racism to the africans and bombimg civilains in dresden - millions of good memories - there are also the shocking once that we forget about. :)
 
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A bit like British cultural values that are trying export there hedonism of of binge driniking, mini skirts and greedy people - maybe its the culture and its greedy and hoarding nature. - Two can play at that game - your remarke is incredibly offences and racist - specifically this part


Read this . . http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-support/134286018-proposal.html

This is an example of some of the cultural values some strive to retain and you are calling me racist!! This girls parents are hypocrites and racists and I am sure their views are mirrored amongst many in the UK.
 
Read this . . http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-support/134286018-proposal.html

This is an example of some of the cultural values some strive to retain and you are calling me racist!! This girls parents are hypocrites and racists and I am sure their views are mirrored amongst many in the UK.


Yes......You are - You ran away to cyprus and now are talking about British culture - Hypocricy there - you should look at yourself before talking about the other people.

your views are probably mirrored by the people that love the BNP.

what are your cultural values that You want to retain??? white Britain while you live in cyprus??? Bing drinking while you gte the tax benefits? seems like hypocricy.
 
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Indeed - but the direction of these posts started when a member here posted the below message . . . . .

the imam at our mosque has encouraged families to have as many children as possible to spread islam and strengthen the ummah. If every family has it arab style 10, 20 children then who knows how fast islam will spread.
That's a bit of a non-sequitur given that the post of yours I was replying to was a different subject, but whatever.

I suggest that (immigrant or not) parents would be more likely to provide greater support and put in greater resources to a smaller family rather than a large family and that if muslims concentrated their efforts on baby production rather than accruing prosperity, they may be lots of them but they are going to remain poor, uneducated, unemployed and angry.
I don't really agree with people who say 'Have a loads of babies to increase the population of X Community! It doesn't matter what else you do so long as you breed like mad!' It sends the wrong message on many levels.

I don't see what this has to do with immigrant/immigration/ghetto bashing as outlined in the post of yours to which I replied.
 
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Some of you don’t want to integrate, you want to change the British culture to something similar to what you or your parents had in Pakistan.
Noone wants to change british culture. Quit with your xenophobia, it's embarrasing. Plus, don't you live in Cyprus?!

..in short they come for better access to worldly benefits.
Indeed, like ALL imigrants!

What I struggle to understand is the Muslims that want to change the country into the same thing that they left – what happens then do you move on to the next country and ruin that one?
Again, more xenophobia. This isn't Independance Day - we are not aliens from space!

Look around you, most of you are living in squalid ghettos, yes it’s better than what you had in Pakistan but surely you left there for something better. I am starting to wonder if you know what you want.
I live in no ghetto, thank you very much for generalising. And I do happen to know what I want: money and lots of it. Like you. And everyone else.

Is there is any aspect of the quality of life you enjoy in the UK that would be improved by changing the culture to that of your forebears?
No gambling, no drinking and no adultery. But hey, if you want to frollick in those areas, by all means do - I don't actually care. Go waste your money (but remember to gambleaware.com!), go drink until you vomit out your guts (booze is cheaper than water at tescos!), go screw everything that breathes (incest, beastiality, whatever you fancy!).

Just don't be suprised when muslims express their disgust at those things.
 
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Hmmm – if identifying a failed country as a failure and saying that it is the citizens of that country that caused the failure is racist then I hold my hands up – it’s still true though.
The way you're using it renders it simply illogical and circular reasoning. You're saying 'All immigrants only emigrate because the country they're leaving has failed' (which is demonstratably false, or at the very least a matter of interpretation rather than an empirical fact).

Following this line of reasoning, you yourself, living in a country that is not Britain, have rendered Britain a failure. Otherwise, why would you have moved?

Which is all a roundabout way of saying - instead of assuming other people's motives, shall we actually, genuinely, ask them?
 
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The way you're using it renders it simply illogical and circular reasoning. You're saying 'All immigrants only emigrate because the country they're leaving has failed' (which is demonstrably false, or at the very least a matter of interpretation rather than an empirical fact).

Following this line of reasoning, you yourself, living in a country that is not Britain, have rendered Britain a failure. Otherwise, why would you have moved?

Which is all a roundabout way of saying - instead of assuming other people's motives, shall we actually, genuinely, ask them?

First let me answer the easy bit – I haven’t emigrated from the UK, I still hold a British passport, I still have property and other assets in the UK, I still pay taxes there and spend several months of the year there; I am, for all intent and purpose on a long holiday in Cyprus at the invitation of the Cypriot government who want people like me (my money) here and offer us incentives to be here.

Now let me turn to your allegation that I am xenophobic (a Greek word meaning fear of foreigners). Without getting into semantics I’ll presume you meant racist. That’s a word which is too easily thrown around and which comes loaded with massive negative connotations. In simple terms a racists believes that some races are superior to another. I have suggested that one culture is better than another, not race. I have mentioned Pakistan because, using the universal measure of success, Pakistan as a country is a (relative) failure. There are other countries which are bigger failures but as Pakistanis are the predominant group amongst the Muslim population of the UK and as this is a Muslim forum it seemed appropriate to mention that country. The question that follows is – why is Pakistan a failure? Of course it is natural to try and blame someone else and blaming colonialism is always a popular choice. Britain was colonised by the Romans, we didn’t blame the Romans for any failings we had as a nation, in fact, I believe it to be the case that Britons believe we benefited from being colonised and influenced by a superior culture. With regards to that excuse and Pakistan the problem is that India was a part of the same colony and compared to Pakistan, they seem to be progressing and prospering. Clearly the Indians and the Pakistani’s are part of the same race so why is that? I believe the reason why Pakistan is less prosperous than India is cultural and I believe the reason why India is less prosperous than the UK is cultural. Does that make me racist – I suggest not, I am not racists and I am certainly not xenophobic, I am however worried, even fearful of the importation of a culture which has produced failure.

The author of the article was suggesting the Islam/Muslims are a demographic time bomb, I suggested that the importation of a failed culture and refusal to integrate was the demographic time bomb.
 
^ I do not think culture is the main reason why a country is less weathly or less properouss than other countries. Mainly it is to do with the enconomy, how the government is structured and how efficient they are. There is too much corruption that needs to be dealth within Pakistan. If a country is filled with corrupt officials then foreign influence and interference will have a greater impact upon the whole population. If law enforcement is deteriorating then so will the nation.

If you look at America they were quite financially successful. However over the years they have gotten into debt. It hasn't got much to do with culture but strategic decisions they made.
 
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The example of the romans and the British is a terrible one because there was no such thing as "Britian" until well later in the 17th century. Lets not forget The UK has not been invaded for a long time. 1066 is the last invasion I believe.

Back to Pakistans failure - thats easy - economy, unstable politcally, no unity due to different ethnic groups - social reasons, no serious system of governanace - thats why you get militery take overs like latin america and recently outside intervention eg the US and its war has destablized the country even more - giving more blame to the outsiders. You have refugees and more hatred of the US developing there - thanks to the drone bombings

so as you can see the reasons are hugely broad and to say the UK is better beacsue of its culture - is bogus - UK has a strong financial power - nothing to do with culture - Good social system - again nothing to do with the culture - very little or no outside intervention (it does the interventions) - on and on.

what do you mean UK culture is "better"??? it couldnt even walk on its own if it didnt have serious people making serious decisions about economy, politics etc - just like any other culture on earth.

why is India so prosperous - it isnt - it has a growing middle class but most of india is still heavily poor.

furthermore coloanialism leaves the slave mentality behind. Its also very very recent.

Edit - I can even take it so far and say what is British culture anyway - the welsh, the Irish, the English and ofcourse the scotts - democracy?tolerance?,liberal? - thats not cultural thats based on indoctrination or education and choices the people make - If they want they can just kick out all the people who dont fit there "Bristish culture" or even worse repeat history.
 
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First let me answer the easy bit – I haven’t emigrated from the UK, I still hold a British passport, I still have property and other assets in the UK, I still pay taxes there and spend several months of the year there; I am, for all intent and purpose on a long holiday in Cyprus at the invitation of the Cypriot government who want people like me (my money) here and offer us incentives to be here.
Your immigration argument, as I understand it, is still flawed. You still seem to be saying 'People only emigrate because their original countries have failed'. This would mean, as a result of every British person who has ever emigrated to another country, that Britain itself is a failure.

Now let me turn to your allegation that I am xenophobic (a Greek word meaning fear of foreigners).
I know what it means. That's why I did not make any such allegation.

Without getting into semantics I’ll presume you meant racist.
Since I did not make such allegations, I'll presume you're replying to someone else.

That’s a word which is too easily thrown around and which comes loaded with massive negative connotations. In simple terms a racists believes that some races are superior to another. I have suggested that one culture is better than another, not race. I have mentioned Pakistan because, using the universal measure of success, Pakistan as a country is a (relative) failure.
This begs the question - what is the universal measure of a culture's success?

There are other countries which are bigger failures but as Pakistanis are the predominant group amongst the Muslim population of the UK and as this is a Muslim forum it seemed appropriate to mention that country. The question that follows is – why is Pakistan a failure?
Assuming it is a 'failure' according to some mystical universal measure, the main reason is that its government is full of corrupt beuraucrats, which in turn weakens the economy. Most politically aware Pakistanis will tell you this. What this has to do with Pakistani culture I don't know.

Of course it is natural to try and blame someone else and blaming colonialism is always a popular choice. Britain was colonised by the Romans, we didn’t blame the Romans for any failings we had as a nation, in fact, I believe it to be the case that Britons believe we benefited from being colonised and influenced by a superior culture.
Don't be absurd. It's been a matter of centuries since the Roman colonisation of Britain. It's been a matter of decades since the British colonisation of Asia. Some countries take longer to adjust than others. To say the relative slowness of certain countries to adjust than others is due solely to those certain countries' 'inferior' cultures is inaccurate to say the least.

With regards to that excuse and Pakistan the problem is that India was a part of the same colony and compared to Pakistan, they seem to be progressing and prospering. Clearly the Indians and the Pakistani’s are part of the same race so why is that? I believe the reason why Pakistan is less prosperous than India is cultural and I believe the reason why India is less prosperous than the UK is cultural.
I believe you're ignoring the elephant in the room that is the corrupt Pakistani government, as opposed to the 'inferior' Pakistani culture.

Does that make me racist – I suggest not, I am not racists and I am certainly not xenophobic, I am however worried, even fearful of the importation of a culture which has produced failure.
Name me a culture that has never produced any failure of any kind.

Anyway, were a culture you deem to be a 'failure' imported into the UK, how precisely does this lead the entire country to ruin? You know, in practice. Are you downplaying the role of government? Are you saying that products of a 'failed culture' should not be allowed to hold governmental positions?
 
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