Zafran
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Do you think his posts have addressed the questions I raised? I'm afraid I've yet to see an explanation of the lack of mention of the Ishmaelites in Deuteronomy.
Salam,
Shoes
salaam
If you read the thread he ahs posted he gives a whole explanation of how this verse applies to the Ishmealites or arabs.
To begin let’s go to Genesis and see if we discover any clues there.
Genesis 37:
25 As they sat down to eat their meal, they looked up and saw a
caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead. Their camels
were loaded with spices, balm and myrrh, and they were on their
way to take them down to Egypt.
26 Judah said to his brothers, "What will we gain if we kill our
brother and cover up his blood?
27 Come, let's sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our
hands on him; after all, he is our brother, our own flesh and
blood." His brothers agreed.
28 So when the Midianite merchants came by, his brothers pulled
Joseph up out of the cistern and sold him for twenty shekels
of silver to the Ishmaelites, who took him to Egypt.
29 When Reuben returned to the cistern and saw that Joseph was
not there, he tore his clothes.
30 He went back to his brothers and said, "The boy isn't there!
Where can I turn now?"
31 Then they got Joseph's robe, slaughtered a goat and dipped
the robe in the blood.
32 They took the ornamented robe back to their father and said,
"We found this. Examine it to see whether it is your son's
robe."
33 He recognized it and said, "It is my son's robe! Some
ferocious animal has devoured him. Joseph has surely been
torn to pieces."
34 Then Jacob tore his clothes, put on sackcloth and mourned for
his son many days.
35 All his sons and daughters came to comfort him, but he
refused to be comforted. "No," he said, "in mourning will I
go down to the grave to my son." So his father wept for
him.
36 Meanwhile, the Midianites sold Joseph in Egypt to
Potiphar, one of Pharaoh's officials, the captain of the
guard.
Genesis 39:
1 Now Joseph had been taken down to Egypt. Potiphar, an
Egyptian who was one of Pharaoh's officials, the captain
of the guard, bought him from the Ishmaelites who had
taken him there.
Here we see that Ishmaelite and Midianite were used interchangeably, thus implying that they are one and the same. Is this done anywhere else in the Bible? Let’s take a look at Judges to see if we can find any more clues.
Judges 6:
2 Because the power of Midian was so oppressive, the Israelites
prepared shelters for themselves in mountain clefts, caves
and strongholds.
Judges 7:
8 ... Now the camp of Midian lay below him [Gideon] in the valley.
9 During that night the LORD said to Gideon, "Get up, go down
against the camp, because I am going to give it into your
hands.
10 If you are afraid to attack, go down to the camp with your
servant Purah
11 and listen to what they are saying. Afterward, you will be
encouraged to attack the camp." So he and Purah his servant
went down to the outposts of the camp.
12 The Midianites, the Amalekites and all the other eastern
peoples had settled in the valley, thick as locusts. Their
camels could no more be counted than the sand on the
seashore.
and
Judges 8:
22 The Israelites said to Gideon, "Rule over us--you, your son
and your grandson--because you have saved us out of the hand
of Midian."
23 But Gideon told them, "I will not rule over you, nor will my
son rule over you. The LORD will rule over you."
24 And he said, "I do have one request, that each of you give me
an earring from your share of the plunder." (It was the
custom of the Ishmaelites to wear gold earrings.)
25 They answered, "We'll be glad to give them." So they spread
out a garment, and each man threw a ring from his plunder
onto it.
26 The weight of the gold rings he asked for came to seventeen
hundred shekels, not counting the ornaments, the pendants
and the purple garments worn by the kings of Midian or the
chains that were on their camels' necks.
To make it easy on me, I copies the verses from this website:
http://www.********************/BibleCom/gen37-25.html
which, by the way also includes this:
Let me quote from the footnotes of the NIV Study Bible:
37:25 Ishmaelites. Also called Midianites (v. 28; see Judges 8:22,24,26) and Medanites (see NIV text note on v. 36). These various tribal groups were interrelated, since Midian and Medan, like Ishmael, were also sons of Abraham (25:2).
Here also we see the 2 mentioned in similar context. In fact many commentaries on the bible that claim that: “the term "Ishamelite" was synonymous with the term "Midianites."
http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulti...-or-midianites
Another website says:
Incidentally, the Midianites and the Ishmaelites were related. The Ishmaelites were descendents of Abraham through Hagar. And the Midianites were descendants of Abraham through Keturah.
I have seen commentary from Christian researchers that claim that the terms "Midianites" and "Ishmaelites" were interchangeable. This is partly based on the use of the two tribal names in Judges 8:22 and Judges 8:24, which indicate that the names might have been interchangeable. Perhaps the names were interchangeable because the two tribes were intermixed to the extent that either name would suffice in describing them.
http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/q12.htm
When we look back at an earlier post we see that both Ishmael and Midian are offspring of Abraham, Alaihe Salaam and that Hagar, according to Jewish Midrash, is actually Keturah:
Quote:
Keturah is Hagar, who received this name because her deeds were as beautiful as incense [ketores]; also because she remained chaste…from the time she had separated from Abraham (Midrash; Rashi).
In light of this information, can we place any Ishmaelites at Sinai with Moses, Alaihe Salaam? And if so, can we place them in close proximity to Moses, Alaihe Salaam?
Read the thread its preety intresting.
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifi...ng-their-brethren-jewish-brethren-only-3.html
This is a valid question, can we use the Torah, as it is today to attempt to discover the identity of “them?” I’m pretty sure that we can, so lets’ take a look at the event which brings us to Mt.’s Sinai & Horeb. It’s called EXODUS! So, let’s look there to see if we can find any clues.
Now, I’m sure that we can all agree that the descendants of Jacob are at times referred to as the “children of Israel”, AND we know that Ishmael is Jacob’s Uncle, so in that manor, they ARE brethren. But let’s take a look at Exodus to see what we can learn there. What we find is a term from Genesis itself used to differentiate the “children of Israel” from the Egyptians, and that is the term Hebrews. The term itself is from an ancestor of Abraham, a descendant of Shem, Eber. Now, the descendants of Shem are referred to as Semites and those of Eber as Hebrews. In the 11th Chapter of Genesis we read in part” …and Shem begot Arpachshad…and Arpachshad begot Shelah…and Shelah begot Eber. So we see here that Eber is Shem’s great grandson. Reading further we read: and Eber begot Peleg…and Peleg begot Reu…and Reu begot Serug...and Serug begot Nahor…and Nahor begot Terah…and Terah begot Abram. That makes Eber Abraham’s great-great-great-great grandfather! (And Shem his great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather! Phew!)
In chapter 9 verse 26 of Genesis we read in part: Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem; and let Canaan be his servant. One wonders why the Lord is called the God of Shem. We find an “undercover” clue in Genesis chapter 14, to wit:
17 After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley).
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem [d] brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,
"Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator [e] of heaven and earth.
20 And blessed be [f] God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand."
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
So who is this mysterious Melchizedek, priest of God Most High? First of every Christian and his brother will of course say “its Jesus, Jesus!” Why, because that’s what Christians do with the Tanakh, they try to turn everything into Jesus!
But what do the Jewish say about our mysterious high priest? Lets look at the notes for verse 18 in the Artscroll Tanach Series Bereishsis/ Genesis A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized From Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic Sources Translation and commentary by Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz with Overviews by Rabbi Nosson Scherman and a Foreword by HaGoan HaRav Mordechai Gifter, published by Mesorah Publication Ltd:
…The sages unanimously identify Malchizedek, King of Salem as Shem, son of Noah (Rashi). He was so called because he was king [melech] over a place known for its righteousness [zedek] (Ibn Ezra); a place which would not tolerate any form of injustice or abomination for an extended time period (Radak); or, according to Ramban, because he ruled over the future site of the Temple, home of the zedek, the righteous Shechinah, which was known even then to be sacred. Thus, Malchizedek might designate him as “king of the place of zedek, righteousness.”
Just below wee see a reference to Shem on 10:21, among others, which reads in part: Why should the Torah associate him (Shem) with Eber more than any other of his offspring? …Shem was the primogenitor of all the descendants of Eber from who came forth the Hebrews (Radak, Ibn Ezra)…Although Shem had may descendants, Eber’s children were the most favored of his offspring because they were righteous like him (Arbarbanel). Sforno comments that those who believed in god were called I(b)rim, after Eber their teacher. Shem, because he was also their teacher, is called the “father” of Eber’s “children” meaning his “students”, because students are called the children of their teacher. [As a side note, it is also Jewish a belief that Jacob spent 14 years engaged at the Academy of Eber in Jerusalem]
Back to the notes on 14:18: Ramban explains that Shem was the most honored among the generation of Canaanites, and he therefore became the priest of God the most high in Jerusalem…
Back to the topic at hand, is the term Hebrew used in the Exodus story? Why yes it is, in fact is used at least 9 times:
Chapter 1:15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live." 17 The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. 18 Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, "Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?"
19 The midwives answered Pharaoh, "Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive."
2:6 She opened it and saw the baby. He was crying, and she felt sorry for him. "This is one of the Hebrew babies," she said.
7 Then his sister asked Pharaoh's daughter, "Shall I go and get one of the Hebrew women to nurse the baby for you?"
11 One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. 12 Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. 13 The next day he went out and saw two Hebrews fighting. He asked the one in the wrong, "Why are you hitting your fellow Hebrew?"
21:2 "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.
Now, even more phenomenally, the God of the Patriarchs transforms into none other than the God of the Hebrews! We see this at least 6 times:
Exodus 3:18
"The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God.
Exodus 5:3
Then they said, "The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Now let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God, or he may strike us with plagues or with the sword."
Exodus 7:16
Then say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has sent me to say to you: Let my people go, so that they may worship me in the desert. But until now you have not listened
Exodus 9:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: "Let my people go, so that they may worship me."
Exodus 9:13
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me
Exodus 10:3
So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, "This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: 'How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me? Let my people go, so that they may worship me
peace
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thumbs_up); the second quote...well what does it argue?? Is there possibly a way to summarise the argument somehow into logical steps so that we can discuss it? I'm afraid I just can't decipher it, and the complete lack of engagement with the actual context of the prophecy (Deut 18 and preceding chapters) strikes me as bizarre.