Deutronomy 18:18

[Ali_Cena]

I am well aware of that. Do you have a copy of the original Torah lying around?

Hi, well if you was aware of that then why would you be questioning?, i have a copy of the Torah, in the internet, but not at home at the current time. Why would you ask such a question anyway?

I'm aware of that also, not really what I meant though. I was interested in his views on this specific point.
This forum is for the discussion of Islam and that's what I'm trying to do.

I dont think you were aware of that eiather as you said "I'm still trying to ascertain exactly what it is that you do believe"-meaning you still dont know. so no you wasent aware of that. Furthermore, if you was aware of that you wouldnt be saying what you just said.

Regarding my way of life, it is not so much a matter of it being undisclosed as undefined. I'm not a follower of any particular religion or ideology, I'm flexible and my opinions or actions could change from one day to the next. The only rules I tend to follow are those of the land, maybe I should put 'British Citizen' in there.

well you should change your way of life everyday... so you dont confuse us.

If it is intended to mean my spiritual leanings I should put agnostic, but that isn't an all-encompassing way of life in the same way as Islam or Judaism.

Spot on. Thats what i think and i think you should learn more about the Quran and Hadeeth, rather than the Torah. Ask people if they got a spare Quran in the house so you can start reading.

 

[Ali_Cena]

I'm not sure how a perfectly pertinent question can be seen as turning this into an 'anti-Islam hatefest'.

Are we to discuss the topic at hand or just make personal accusations?

as you can see both...

 

[Azy]

Hi, well if you was aware of that then why would you be questioning?, i have a copy of the Torah, in the internet, but not at home at the current time. Why would you ask such a question anyway?

Well that wasn't what I asked. I said 'original' Torah.

I dont think you were aware of that eiather as you said "I'm still trying to ascertain exactly what it is that you do believe"-meaning you still dont know. so no you wasent aware of that. Furthermore, if you was aware of that you wouldnt be saying what you just said.

So I don't even know what I don't know. How do I manage to tie my laces?

Spot on. Thats what i think and i think you should learn more about the Quran and Hadeeth, rather than the Torah. Ask people if they got a spare Quran in the house so you can start reading.

I have internet access so I can look at 20 translation at once. People keep telling me that's no good though as you don't really understand the message if you aren't fluent in Classical Arabic.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I'd like to thank doorster for posting one of the most obviously circular arguments I've ever seen on this board:

The Qur'an is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Qur'an is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.'' Consequently, the Qur'an is trustworthy, a witness, and dominant over every Scripture that preceded it.

Also, asking questions about Islam does not equal a "hate-fest". If you can't think critically, or ask questions that may upset received ideas, how is intellectual progress possible?

Peace

 

[doorster]

Greetings,

I'd like to thank doorster for posting one of the most obviously circular arguments I've ever seen on this board:



Also, asking questions about Islam does not equal a "hate-fest". If you can't think critically, or ask questions that may upset received ideas, how is intellectual progress possible?

Peace

if you were not so quick to celebrate, you may have noticed me quoting that from Muhammad the site admin and tried to add that for kafirs and non-Muslims and Muslim, it is all different

example: If it [Quraan]were not proof enough for me, I would either be an evangelising kafir trickster/distorter like you, or a preacher of Christianity like graceseeker,follower glo et al and vice versa

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

if you were not so quick to celebrate, you may have noticed me quoting that from Muhammad the site admin and trying to add that for kafirs and non-Muslims and Muslim, it is all different

I did notice it was from Muhammad. Does that change things somehow?

example: If it were not proof enough for me, I would either be an evangelising kafir like you, or a preacher of Christianity like graceseeker,follower glo et al and vice vaers

So are you saying that you do find circular arguments like that convincing?

Sorry I can't make out exactly what you mean here.

Peace

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

an evangelising kafir trickster/distorter like you

So now you're insulting me - that's bound to win the argument. :hmm:

Peace

 

[doorster]

I never give a toss about winning arguments whereas your kind does and your saying that will cause one of your mates to ban me for 30 days regardless of you twisting post,

for example last month my little chat http://www.islamicboard.com/news-ga...g-graphic-images-post1082740.html#post1082740 with trumble started an argument with an annonymous mod in PMs and he banned me

and you people know this well thus take full advantage of their fawning over you!

 

[Cabdullahi]

BROTHER take is easy when you are addressing others!.....

The quran says 'call onto the way of thy lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching and reason with them in ways that are best''

so im afraid to say we have failed on laying the first brick that would make a strong foundation where we can talk to ppl without scaring them away

peace

 

[doorster]

BROTHER take is easy when you are addressing others!.....

The quran says 'call onto the way of thy lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching and reason with them in ways that are best''

so im afraid to say we have failed on laying the first brick that would make a strong foundation where we can talk to ppl without scaring them away

peace

you mean like you do?

demonising entire communities and countries is "Islamic" but getting sick of any individual and telling him so after putting up with him 100s of times is bad manners?

 

[Cabdullahi]

brother relax

 

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings,

Well that wasn't what I asked. I said 'original' Torah.
So I don't even know what I don't know. How do I manage to tie my laces?

Please. Azy if you want to start argueing at least make sense. I mean "How do I manage to tie my laces?" what on earth is that?, i think you are confusing yourself^o). Secondly, no one has the original Torah, if you do then let us know, becuase i dont and no one does have the exact original copy, from were it was first made.

I have internet access so I can look at 20 translation at once. People keep telling me that's no good though as you don't really understand the message if you aren't fluent in Classical Arabic.

Well thats true, on the other hand, if you look at prominant ones, like pickthall, Yusuf Ali, whilst having the commentaried versions, you can understand why they have the words there or understand the senario, you get what i mean? Furthermore its good to have more than 1 translation as Allah SWT might want to give a word with 2 correct meanings, like explaining why Deed X is wrong by using the words lets saying Y which could mean bad, dirty, disgusting or unclean.

Peace to you Azy.

 

[Azy]

what on earth is that?

That was a little joke.

Secondly, no one has the original Torah, if you do then let us know, becuase i dont and no one does have the exact original copy, from were it was first made.

My point exactly, how can the author of the document in the original post claim such accuracy when nobody knows the wording of the original, let alone the spellings to the exact letter?

Peace to you Azy.

Peace

 

[Ali_Cena]

That was a little joke.

Ok, your sense of humour is a funny one

My point exactly, how can the author of the document in the original post claim such accuracy when nobody knows the wording of the original, let alone the spellings to the exact letter?

well thats true, but the editing has even happened like 100-200 years ago, not just from the first ever Torah, I mean i was reading something; which i cant find the source to, but i am sure someone can, where the pope even admits, the church edited the bible, YES EDITING the bible, for the reason you might ask, is that they wanted to answer quetsions that couldnt be answerd at the time, so the editied and even admited that.

So you can see if the pope even admited it, then, you know its been changed, and if the first ever copy can not be found, then you cant even UNEDIT it, so...unreliable to some extent.

Peace

Peace to you to.

 

[Follower]

Your Quran confirms the Torah and Gospels.

We have the original Aramaic Gospels. I have linked to John 1 for you.

http://www.aramaicpe****ta.com/AramaicNTtools/Pe****tainterlinear/4_John/Yukhnch1.pdf

I have been to Bible studys that specifically ask for each person to bring various translatons. The main theme never changes, but various translations add fuller meaning or easier understanding the scripture.

Look at all the translations of the Quran.

 

[Follower]

http://www.aramaicpe****ta.com/AramaicNTtools/Pe****tainterlinear/4_John/Yukhnch1.pdf

 

[Follower]

LOL!! It keeps blocking out the full word.

p e s h i t t a

 

[Follower]

Ali Cena we know from hadith that the Quran was edited by some of the scribes.

http://isaalmasih.net/archaeology-isa/quran-archaeology.html

The torah is the same one from Jesus time and the Gospel is from the time of Paul and Polycarp, this is fact.

What has changed or happened in Islam that the Quran confirms the Torah and Gospel and

Ali al-Tabari (died 855) accepted the Gospel texts
Amr al-Ghakhiz (869) accepted the Gospel texts
BUKHARI (810-870) accepted the Gospel texts (he gathered some of the earliest tradition of Islam quoted the Quran itself to support his belief in the text of the Bible Sura 3:72,78)
Al-Mas’udi (956) accepted the Gospel texts
Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina (1037) accepted the Gospel texts
AL-GHAZZALI (1111) accepted the Gospel texts (probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings)
Ibn-Khaldun (1406) accepted the Gospel texts (he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings but rather believed the earlier Islamic teachers.)
Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College "In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved that corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced."
Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew of Muhammed, "The Jews and early Christians were suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil; but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians it was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because those Scriptures were generally known and widely circulated, having been handed down from generation to generation." (The Muhammedan Commentary, pp 79 f.).

 

[Zafran]

Ali Cena we know from hadith that the Quran was edited by some of the scribes.

http://isaalmasih.net/archaeology-isa/quran-archaeology.html

The torah is the same one from Jesus time and the Gospel is from the time of Paul and Polycarp, this is fact.

What has changed or happened in Islam that the Quran confirms the Torah and Gospel and

Ali al-Tabari (died 855) accepted the Gospel texts
Amr al-Ghakhiz (869) accepted the Gospel texts
BUKHARI (810-870) accepted the Gospel texts (he gathered some of the earliest tradition of Islam quoted the Quran itself to support his belief in the text of the Bible Sura 3:72,78)
Al-Mas’udi (956) accepted the Gospel texts
Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina (1037) accepted the Gospel texts
AL-GHAZZALI (1111) accepted the Gospel texts (probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings)
Ibn-Khaldun (1406) accepted the Gospel texts (he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings but rather believed the earlier Islamic teachers.)
Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College "In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved that corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced."
Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew of Muhammed, "The Jews and early Christians were suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil; but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians it was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because those Scriptures were generally known and widely circulated, having been handed down from generation to generation." (The Muhammedan Commentary, pp 79 f.).

salaam

most of that is for that famous anti Islamic site - You should also check answering chrisatinty it rebuttals most of those claims :smile:


and the "The Muhammedan Commentary" - sounds orientalists work to me.

nice try though.

Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"



peace.

 

[Grace Seeker]

http://home.comcast.net/~rzuberi/articles/Deuteronomy1818.pdf

Alcurad, not to be insulting, but I have heard all of this before, and I just don't find any of it at all convincing. I think the plain sense of the passage, a refernce to some prophet of the original author's day and from the tribes he was a part of, is the most reasonable understanding. Personally, I suspect it refers to Joshua. I don't even like the Christian application of this to Jesus as the original intent, even if some might aruge it as a secondary interpretation.