Dhul Qarnayn: Quranic Error?

[mirage41]

Actually, I should also point out that horned helmets are noted battle-gear for several ancient civilizations.

yeah. so? The horns are not just any horns. They are rams horns. The horns of AMON. Alexander the Great was anointed as the SON OF AMON.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun

Likewise, in Libya, there remained an oracle of Amun in the desert, at the oasis of Siwa. Such was its reputation among the Greeks that Alexander the Great journeyed there, after the battle of Issus, and during his occupation of Egypt, in order to be acknowledged the son of the god. Even during this occupation, Amun, identified as a form of Zeus, continued to be the great god of Thebes,

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

1) Dhul Qarnain means "two horned one"
2) Dhul Qarnain is described in Quran as a great leader that reaches the far ends of the earth.
3) Therefore Dhul Qarnain CANNOT be a simple goat (lol)

How about someone with one of these on their head?

4) Alexander the Great is the only leader known in the Mid-East to be anointed as the son of Amon (a ram figure) and displayed by locals as being with "two horns"

Where in the Qur'an does it say Dhul-Qarnayn was anointed as the son of Amon?

5) Alexander the Great also reached the far reaches of the known world (at his times)

There have been NUMEROUS conquerors who have had such territorial span in ancient times.

6) Since the Quran was written in the Mideast the only known figure that matches the Quranic "Dhul Qarnain" is ALEXANDER THE GREAT!

Keyword - 'known'. That proves? Nothing.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

yeah. so? The horns are not just any horns. They are rams horns.

Where does the Qur'an say he had ram horns?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Some Muslims have speculated that Cyrus may have been Dhul-Qarnayn.

Cyrus' dominions must have comprised the largest empire the world had yet seen​

Again, it's just speculation.

 

[mirage41]

Where in the Qur'an does it say Dhul-Qarnayn was anointed as the son of Amon?


There have been NUMEROUS conquerors who have had such territorial span in ancient times.


Keyword - 'known'. That proves? Nothing.

I never said the Quran did.

Actually no, Alexander the Great was the only one known to have gone that far. That's the only really big hero the Arabs really knew of.

 

[mirage41]

Some Muslims have speculated that Cyrus may have been Dhul-Qarnayn.

Cyrus' dominions must have comprised the largest empire the world had yet seen​

Again, it's just speculation.

Yes, but Cyrus has no imagery of "two horns" associated with him. You see the KEY to this issue is the "two horns". Once again - ONLY Alexander was given this imagery. It really CAN'T POSSIBLY be anyone else.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Yes, but Cyrus has no imagery of "two horns" associated with him. You see the KEY to this issue is the "two horns". Once again - ONLY Alexander was given this imagery. It really CAN'T POSSIBLY be anyone else.

Actually:

Furthermore, two horns and two horned symbolism was not an unknown emblem of the kingdoms of Persia and its predecessors, for we see that Elamite kings used this symbol routinely in their insignia.​

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great_in_the_Quran

So your claim is actually wrong on numerous levels. According to historical evidence, NUMEROUS kings were known to have used this symbolism. Also, the horned feature of a battle helmet could have adorned NUMEROUS historical figures. There is no logical basis for restricting it to Alexander the great.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I never said the Quran did.

In which case the point is meaningless.

Actually no, Alexander the Great was the only one known to have gone that far.

Wrong. Cyrus is just one other example.

That's the only really big hero the Arabs really knew of.

Why does it have to be a hero that arabs knew of? You're presupposing that the Qur'an was written by man. You can't assume that it was written by men in order to prove it was written by men!

 

[mirage41]

Actually:

Furthermore, two horns and two horned symbolism was not an unknown emblem of the kingdoms of Persia and its predecessors, for we see that Elamite kings used this symbol routinely in their insignia.​

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great_in_the_Quran

So your claim is actually wrong on numerous levels. According to historical evidence, NUMEROUS kings were known to have used this symbolism. Also, the horned feature of a battle helmet could have adorned NUMEROUS historical figures. There is no logical basis for restricting it to Alexander the great.

No! The Arabs would not have known of these other kings! But in addition to the Amon imagery there is the fact that he reached where the "sun sets". THATS ALEXANDER!

 

[mirage41]

Why does it have to be a hero that arabs knew of? You're presupposing that the Qur'an was written by man. You can't assume that it was written by men in order to prove it was written by men!

Of course it was written by men. Have you ever read Surat Al Kafirun? Dude, come one, no wise god would possibly write that stuff. Only a pretty angry dude can write that!

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

No! The Arabs would not have known of these other kings!

Even if that were true, would that prove anything? No.

But in addition to the Amon imagery there is the fact that he reached where the "sun sets". THATS ALEXANDER!

According to your favourite source, wikipedia, it fits Cyrus even better:

"The limit where the sun set" does not mean the "place" of the setting of the sun. According to Ibn Kathir, it means that he marched to the West conquering one country after the other till he reached the last boundary of the land, beyond which there was ocean. "He found the sun setting in black muddy waters of the sea": if Dhul-Qarnain was Cyrus, then that place would be the western limit of Asia Minor and the "black waters" would be the Aegean Sea. This interpretation is supported by the use of the word "`ain" instead of "bahr" in the Qur'an.

...Thus in the light of the above, it is easy to conclude that of all the conquerors who had passed away before the revelation of the Qur'an, Cyrus alone is the one to whom the characteristics of "Dhul-Qarnain" are most applicable. There is no other conqueror to whom the characteristics stated in the Qur'an are as much applicable as to Cyrus.​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great_in_the_Quran

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Of course it was written by men.

You've just conceded the flaw in your argument. You cna't assume the Qur'an was written by men to prove it was written by men!!

Talk about twisted reasoning!

Have you ever read Surat Al Kafirun?

Yes, but now you're switching subject. You dropped the DhulQarnayn charge. Why? Realized you lost the debate?

Dude, come one, no wise god would possibly write that stuff.

Why not? Can you provide objective reasoning that logically negates the possibility of such a passage arising from an AllWise God?

 

[mirage41]

E

"The limit where the sun set" does not mean the "place" of the setting of the sun. According to Ibn Kathir, it means that he marched to the West conquering one country after the other till he reached the last boundary of the land, beyond which there was ocean. "He found the sun setting in black muddy waters of the sea": if Dhul-Qarnain was Cyrus, then that place would be the western limit of Asia Minor and the "black waters" would be the Aegean Sea. This interpretation is supported by the use of the word "`ain" instead of "bahr" in the Qur'an.
​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great_in_the_Quran

Cyrus was NOT an Elamite King! The two horned imagery was NEVER associated with Cyrus. The article never says that. Also saying Qarnain was Cyrus will only reveal another Quranic error. Cyrus was "made" into a Monotheist by the grateful Jew (since he was lenient on them) and he was inducted as a righteous king into the Jewish hall of fame. So are you saying Allah was reading up on jewish legends and decided to include it in the Quran?

 

[Nicola]

=Ansar Al-'Adl;271931]What you mean is that we do not know whether the identity of Dhul-Qarnayn is known to historians and archaeologists by another name or whether it has yet to be discovered. But we know who he was from what the Qur'an has told us about him.

Dhul-Qarnayn (Arabic ذو القرنين), literally meaning "He of the Two Horns", is a figure mentioned in the Qur'an, the sacred scripture of Islam, where he is described as a great and righteous ruler who built a long wall that keeps Gog and Magog from attacking the people of the West. Moreover, he is regarded by some Muslims as a prophet. Historically, Dhul-Qarnayn has been identified as Alexander the Great, and this remains the opinion of most secular historians, while contemporary Islamic scholars are divided on the issue. The epithet was also familiar among the pre-Islamic Arabs, who applied it to at least three different kings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhul-Qarnayn

Do you know who the other three kings could have been that are mentioned here?...From the above it looks like there are scholars that believe Dhul-Qarnayn was Alexander the Great...so I guess it's a matter of opinion. Because the Quran isn't clear enough.

I don't think any Muslim has ever claimed that every historical figure mentioned in the Qur'an has been realized by archaeological and historical evidence.

I was talking about all world leaders, political leader mentioned in the Quran.
What names of world leaders mentioned in the Quran have not be discovered yet?

Again, we know who they were from what it says in the Qur'an. But if you mean anyone who's identity remains a mystery to modern historians and archaeologists, then why not start with Adam?

I'm not talking about digging up the bones from Adam...but surely there would be some historical evidence elsewhere in the world...He of two horns built a long wall that keeps Gog and Magog from attacking the people of the West
Looking at the evidence, how many people in history does this...it seems very likely that Mohammed was referring to Alexander the Great.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Cyrus was NOT an Elamite King! The two horned imagery was NEVER associated with Cyrus. The article never says that.

Yes, the article says in plain english that considering the familiarty of the 'two-horned' symbolism to the Jews, it is massively likely that it could have applied to Cyrus.

Also saying Qarnain was Cyrus will only reveal another Quranic error. Cyrus was "made" into a Monotheist by the grateful Jew (since he was lenient on them) and he was inducted as a righteous king into the Jewish hall of fame.

Actually his religious beliefs remain unknown.

So are you saying Allah was reading up on jewish legends and decided to include it in the Quran?

Please tell me your reasoning is not as distorted as the above statement! An omniscient God does need to read up on anything!

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Do you know who the other three kings could have been that are mentioned here?...From the above it looks like there are scholars that believe Dhul-Qarnayn was Alexander the Great...so I guess it's a matter of opinion. Because the Quran isn't clear enough.

It has nothign to do with the Qur'an clarity, because the Qur'an never sought to identify Dhul-Qarnayn with a historically known figure in the first place.

I was talking about all world leaders, political leader mentioned in the Quran.
What names of world leaders mentioned in the Quran have not be discovered yet?

How about all the Prophets mentioned in the Qur'an and Bible?

I'm not talking about digging up the bones from Adam...

Why do you not expect to know the historical identity of Adam but you do for Dhul-Qarnayn?

Looking at the evidence, how many people in history does this...it seems very likely that Mohammed was referring to Alexander the Great.

Read the Cyrus link.

Regards

 

[Abu Zakariya]

There's an explanation of Surat al-Kahf (by Bilal Philips), at this link:

http://nwapp.emirates.net.ae/channel/albahhar/english/islamic/lectures2.jsp

Watch this video from the 26th minute: http://213.42.1.10/ramgen/eim/bilal/0002-9.rm

Dr. Philips explains how he got to be known as Dhul-Qarnayn.
It has got nothing to do with horns.
Ali ibn Abi Talib was asked about this and he explained that during his call to righteousness he was struck twice on the tip of his head. The tip of the head, in arabic, is refered to as "al-Qarn". The same way, the top of the sun during sunrise is called Qarn and so is the peak of the mountain.
It has nothing to do with horns.

Thus, the fact that Alexander the Great was depicted as having horns on a coin is irrelevant. Dhul-Qarnayn wasn't called what he was called because of horns, but because of the fact that he was struck two times on his head.
Watch the video for more information.

SubhanAllah, this really shows the importance of knowing one's Deen and the explanation of the Qur'an, so we can answer these kind of things.

 

[extinction]

this topic is still going on? didnt bro ansar al adl answer more than enough?

 

[Muslim Knight]

Is this conclusive evidence he was a goat?
http://www.pandausa.com/image/lunar/australian/gold/2003110goatback.jpg


or...the devil, or a cow, or anything else depicted with two horns.

Hehehe :giggling: OK Bro. Ansar, you've managed to get my attention to the whole discussion. This is really funny. Hahahaha! ;D

Another point come in mind. Dhul-Qarnayn mentioned in the Quran was a pious Believer of the One God, Allah. It is because of his piety (mentioned in the Quran) that Allah endowed him with the ability to construct the wall to separate between the people (who was beleaguered) from the Gog and Magog tribes.

They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story." (Q 18:83)

He (Dhul-Qarnayn) said: "(The power) in which my Lord has established me is better (than tribute): Help me therefore with strength (and labour): I will erect a strong barrier between you and them (Q 18:95)

He said: "This is a mercy from my Lord: But when the promise of my Lord comes to pass, He will make it into dust; and the promise of my Lord is true" (Q 18:98)

The verses explain themselves clearly.

Alexander the Great, on the other hand, was a Greek Pagan, a worshipper of the gods and goddesses in ancient Greece. Nowhere in the records mention him as the worshipper of the one God.

Additionally, there is a lie perpretrated by modern historical books (in Malaysia, for example) where they (modern historians) try to equate Dhul-Qarnayn with Alexander the Great by inserting (a supposed transliteration) "Iskandar" into his name (transforming it into "Iskandar Zulkarnain"). My reasoning is that nowhere in the Quran did it mention Dhul-Qarnayn as having alternate name as "Iskandar" or "Alexander". There is "Dhul Qarnayn" in the Quran, but no "Alexander".

 

[Mohsin]

There's an explanation of Surat al-Kahf (by Bilal Philips), at this link:

http://nwapp.emirates.net.ae/channel/albahhar/english/islamic/lectures2.jsp

Watch this video from the 26th minute: http://213.42.1.10/ramgen/eim/bilal/0002-9.rm

Dr. Philips explains how he got to be known as Dhul-Qarnayn.
It has got nothing to do with horns.
Ali ibn Abi Talib was asked about this and he explained that during his call to righteousness he was struck twice on the tip of his head. The tip of the head, in arabic, is refered to as "al-Qarn". The same way, the top of the sun during sunrise is called Qarn and so is the peak of the mountain.
It has nothing to do with horns.

Thus, the fact that Alexander the Great was depicted as having horns on a coin is irrelevant. Dhul-Qarnayn wasn't called what he was called because of horns, but because of the fact that he was struck two times on his head.
Watch the video for more information.

SubhanAllah, this really shows the importance of knowing one's Deen and the explanation of the Qur'an, so we can answer these kind of things.

Jk khairun for that, i think from this post it is quite conclusive now, i'd like to see what mirage has to say now