Did Jesus (p) Deny Being God?

[HeiGou]

I disgree. The Qur'an does, indeed say that Mary is a virgin and Muslims believe it. And firstly, do not imply that I am saying anything I am not. I am telling you that the Isaiah 7:14 is not a prophecy of Jesus(p).

Ahh a more interesting claim.

The church must hold this position because Matthew 1:22-23 translates alma in Isaiah 7:14 as “virgin.” The first Gospel quotes this well-known verse to provide the only “Old Testament” proof text for the supposed virgin birth of Jesus.

Well no. Christians would say it is not about proof but about facts.

Back to the Hebrew "Alma."

If the Hebrew word alma means virgin, then each usage in the Bible must be either a clear reference to a virgin or at least be ambiguous. The word alma appears in the Jewish scriptures seven times.

Which it is. Notice that the Jews translated the term in Greek as parthenos which also means virgin - before Jesus was born. Several hundred years before Jesus was born.

If even one reference clearly refers to a woman who is not a virgin, then Matthew’s rendition of Isaiah 7:14 becomes untenable. Sorry to say.

I am unconvinced of that but let's move a long.

One of the places where the uncommon Hebrew word alma appears in the Bible is in Proverbs 30:18-20 which reads,

There are three things which are too wonderful for me, four which I do not understand: the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the middle of the sea, and the way of a man with a young woman [b’alma]. This is the way of an adulterous woman: she eats and wipes her mouth, and says, “I have done no wrong.”​

Now, Heigou, what is that verse saying? In the above three verses, King Solomon compares a man with an alma to three other things: an eagle in the sky, a serpent on a rock, and a ship in the sea. What do these three things all have in common? They leave no trace. After the eagle has flown across the sky, determining that the eagle had ever flown there is impossible. Once a snake has slithered over a rock, there is no way to discern that the snake had ever crossed there (as opposed to a snake slithering over sand or grass, where it leaves a trail). After a ship has moved across the sea, the water comes together behind it and there is no way to tell that a ship had ever passed through there. Similarly, King Solomon informs us that once a man has been with an alma there is also no trace of the fornication that had occurred between them. Therefore, in the following verse (verse 20) King Solomon explains that once this adulterous woman has eaten (a metaphor for her fornication), she removes the trace of her sexual activity by exclaiming, “I have done no wrong.”

First of all Proverbs is a collection of short sayings with no relation to each other. Compare with a fuller version

[17] The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it.
[18] There be three things which are too wonderful for me, yea, four which I know not:
[19] The way of an eagle in the air; the way of a serpent upon a rock; the way of a ship in the midst of the sea; and the way of a man with a maid.
[20] Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.
[21] For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear:​

Clearly 17 is not related to 18 which is related to 19 and 20 is not related to 21. Now the question is, is 19 related to 20. I think not. As neither 18 nor 19 refer to an adulterous woman. Solomon is not comparing a man's way with a maid to any of these. He says four things perplex him - how on Earth an Eagle stays up in the air, how a ship floats on the ocean, how a snake does not slip off a rock and what moves between a man and a woman. You notice they all seem precarious and unsupported. They all seem dangerous and exciting. Now a ship clearly does leave a wake. And clearly if a man has his wicked way with a maid he too leaves a trace, and perhaps a pregnancy. So "your" interpretation cannot be true. And clearly 20 does not relate to 18 and 19 at all.

The point that there are "anti-Catholic" Bibles has nothig to do with the wording of the verse. It clearly has two meanings, however, the Jewish Bible uses the correct one.

Yes. Parthenos. A virgin. The title of Athena. Actually it has a lot to do with it. Until the modern period no one thought that this did not refer to a virgin. Suddenly they do? uh huh.

In Genesis 28:19 we read "And he called the name of that place Bethel (house of God)". Since the place was named "house of God," does this mean that God lived inside this house?

No, it means it is a house dedicated to God. House of God.

Self-evidently there is a difference between The House of God and God is With Us. In one God is the active party, in the other He is not. The house is merely dedicated to him. Same with God Hears. Not God's hearing.

There is a difference, however, the point is because the name Immanuel means, "God with us." Does it automatically refer to Jesus(p)?

Not automatically. At least not to me.

 

[HeiGou]

well bro heigou i knew alot about ''christian'' and no he was not god! he was son of god!

You wrere CofE right? From the Book of Common Prayer,

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty
Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible:

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds;
God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by Whom all things were made:
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man:
And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried:
And the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures:
And ascended into Heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father:
And he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead:
Whose Kingdom will have no end:​

Or from the even older Athanasian Creed

Whoever wants to be saved should above all cling to the catholic faith.
Whoever does not guard it whole and inviolable will doubtless perish eternally.
Now this is the catholic faith: We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being.
For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another.
But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, coeternal in majesty.
What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit.
Uncreated is the Father; uncreated is the Son; uncreated is the Spirit.
The Father is infinite; the Son is infinite; the Holy Spirit is infinite.
Eternal is the Father; eternal is the Son; eternal is the Spirit:
And yet there are not three eternal beings, but one who is eternal;
as there are not three uncreated and unlimited beings, but one who is uncreated and unlimited.
Almighty is the Father; almighty is the Son; almighty is the Spirit:
And yet there are not three almighty beings, but one who is almighty.
Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God:
And yet there are not three gods, but one God.
Thus the Father is Lord; the Son is Lord; the Holy Spirit is Lord:
And yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.
As Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten;
the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father;
the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.
Thus there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three spirits.
And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other;
but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.
Whoever wants to be saved should think thus about the Trinity.
It is necessary for eternal salvation that one also faithfully believe that our Lord Jesus Christ became flesh.
For this is the true faith that we believe and confess: That our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and man.
He is God, begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father, and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother --
existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body;
equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity.
Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ.
He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity.
He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures.
For as the rational soul and body are one person, so the one Christ is God and man.
He suffered death for our salvation.
He descended into hell and rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people shall rise bodily to give an account of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith.
One cannot be saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.​

but then again people believe in different way it depends what your parents believe

Indeed. I don't want to be nasty about this, but do you think that perhaps you should study Christianity a little bit more before telling Christians what they should or should not believe?

you just don't understand at all! izlam is the best religion!

please go and do some research on it

Well I am happy to accept that you think the first, and I am doing just that on the second.

 

[Kittygyal]

exuse us i don't want to study on christianity as i already know and first off all i don't want to go in this cause i have converted it's just to much for me!

and i am saying this to the christians cause they don't believe can't take it that izlam is a truth religion

wish you gud luk in you research!

take care

 

[رياح_الشمال]

slm
u right sis islamgyal

and i am saying this to the christians cause they don't believe can't take it that izlam is a truth religion

da other thing is how can christians believe wat comes in da bible and there is several copies of it which1 do u guyz believe
am nt making fun bt seriously
blus how can a human being be a God
dat in itself unbelievable
n i gt another ques
was it mentioned in da bible a prophet who will comes after jesus?
if so wat is his name?
and wen will he comes?
w salm

 

[Kittygyal]

at least somone agrees thanks sis

take care

 

[HeiGou]

da other thing is how can christians believe wat comes in da bible and there is several copies of it which1 do u guyz believe
am nt making fun bt seriously

Well most Christians are Catholics or Orthodox and they believe that Jesus is working within the Christian community today in the form of His Church. So they have the authority to comment on what is or is not in the Bible. As for the several versions, some of the Churchs have different opinions about which books are canonical, and there are different translations, is that what you mean?

blus how can a human being be a God
dat in itself unbelievable

Why is that unbelievable? God can do anything can't He? Why not be a human being?

n i gt another ques
was it mentioned in da bible a prophet who will comes after jesus?
if so wat is his name?
and wen will he comes?

No. Only the Anti-Christ and then Jesus Again.

As I said, Muslims are to Christians like Bahais are to Muslims. All three monotheistic religions claim to be the Last and do not like those that come after.

 

[Ahmad]

Bismillah

I disagree with your logic, HeiGou. Thr proof is in the pudding. The arguments you set forth are interesting, but not convincing. You can complain about the facts I set forth as you like, however, the truth is there.

Lahdinas siraatal mustaqeem...

It says specifically Luke that with God all things are possible; however, like I posted that in the book of Numbers it states that God is not a man (humanbeing).

Moreover, the Prophets of the Jewish Bible made it more than clear the nature of God. Even the Almighty in the Bible make a multitude of explicit statements Himself on His absolute ONENESS and authority.

Now, the verses that Christians use are merely implicit statements that are vague and can be interpreted either way. However, the context of the verse answers the question to the most often used Christian claims of the divinity of Jesus(p) and His being God.

 

[Ahmad]

HeiGou said:
"No. Only the Anti-Christ and then Jesus Again."

That is not right, brother.

 

[nimrod]

Skillganon “You see the word worship has been wrongly translated!” I am sorry I had overlooked your post. I asked a scholar of the Hebrew language and this is his answer:

“The word Shehah is not associated with worship at all. "Shay-wah"(Shehah) Means "Sleep".

There are 3 words used in Hebrew for worship.
One is "Yadah", meaning to worship with hands lifted towards heaven.
Then "Barak", which is to kneel or to bow to a superior power.
Then there is Tehillah, simply to pray out loud and to sing your prayer as the words comes into your mind and the body sways back and forth.
These are the 3 forms of Hebrew Worship.

Most of the times that Barak is used, it is in Human to human worship such as a king, the Hebrews did not worship God with their heads to the ground
Except when God appeared in person.

A good example is Daniel who prayed 3 times a day, kneeling (Barak) towards Jerusalem”.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[nimrod]

Thanks for the explanation Islam Gyal.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[nimrod]

Ahmad do you think Jesus is the only name that has been given or that will be given to Jesus? There are many of us that use the name “Immanuel” in reference to Jesus.

It is interesting that you also mention another name given to Jesus. “Faithful and True”, the rider on the white horse.
Could you expand a bit on the prophet that you refer to as coming after Jesus?

Of all the links I have seen provided, I wish someone would provide a link to a specific list verses in the Bible that Islam accepts as true and a list of those Islam accepts as false.

To try to have a discussion about scripture is a bit trying when the end result is “well we know the Bible has suffered changes so I don’t accept that verse”. It would be much easier if a person knew ahead of time what common ground there was to work from.

Ahmad when you try and take a single verse Isaiah 7:14 and try to build an entire argument around it you are more times than not setting yourself up for failure.

Isaiah 7:14 isn’t the only scripture in the Bible explaining who Jesus is. If a person looks on the totality of scripture concerning Jesus then you will have a very hard time coming to the conclusions you have.

Isaiah 9
To Us a Child Is Born
1 Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan-
2 The people walking in darkness have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.
3 You have enlarged the nation and increased their joy;
they rejoice before you as people rejoice at the harvest, as men rejoice
when dividing the plunder.
4 For as in the day of Midian's defeat, you have shattered
the yoke that burdens them, the bar across their shoulders,
the rod of their oppressor.
5 Every warrior's boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood
will be destined for burning, will be fuel for the fire.
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.

The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

Isaiah 11
The Branch From Jesse
1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him— the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the
LORD -
3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.
He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his
ears;
4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.
5 Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist.
6 The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, and the young child put his hand into
the viper's nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.
10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will
rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.
11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that
is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush,
from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.
12 He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.
13 Ephraim's jealousy will vanish, and Judah's enemies will be cut off;
Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim.
14 They will swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west;
together they will plunder the people to the east.
They will lay hands on Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites will be subject to them.
15 The LORD will dry up the gulf of the Egyptian sea;
with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand over the Euphrates River.
He will break it up into seven streams so that men can cross over in sandals.
16 There will be a highway for the remnant of his people that is left from Assyria,
as there was for Israel when they came up from Egypt.


That is just one or two chapters from one book of the Old Testament. Surely you aren’t sticking to your current argument that the one referred to in Isaiah 7:14 doesn’t refer to Jesus.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[Shadow_of_White]

mashAllah
we can indetify with soo many truth things said here..
mashAllah to all the sisters and brothers for these great replies...:statisfie

that just shows how the passionate and strong faith of Muslims are...:rollseyes


take care :sister: :thankyou:

 

[Al-Mu'min]

Nimrod,
It's good to be back. Lets see you asked a few questions in your last post.

About the prophet after Jesus please read about "Mohammed in the Bible"
by shiekh Ahmed Deedat:
http://www.islamworld.net/Muhammad.in.Bible.html

Nimrod you also asked what parts of the bible do muslims believe in:

The Noble Quran came to confirm Truth that exists in the Manuscripts in the different canons and to filter out Truth from falsehood in them. Allah Almighty never claimed that the bible is fully and 100% Divine. Islam is a witness on the Bible. It filters out the truth from falsehood and corruption in the Bible. The Noble Quran only recognizes the Bible as a HISTORY BOOK with errors and man's alteration in it. Anything that agrees 100% with Islam is valid, and anything else that has even the slightest disagreement with Islam is discarded:

"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper. (The Noble Quran, 7:157)"

"It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment be tween right and wrong). (The Noble Quran, 3:3)"

"To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; (The Noble Quran, 5:48)"

"That which We have revealed to thee of the Book is the Truth,- confirming what was (revealed) before it: for God is assuredly- with respect to His Servants - well acquainted and Fully Observant. (The Noble Quran, 35:31)"

That is why we Muslims believe in only the parts of the Bible that agree with the Noble Quran. The parts that contradict the Noble Quran are not the Truth:

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

"Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book (i.e., the Bible), but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-78)"

"O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment. (The Noble Quran, 5:41)"

"Say: 'O People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians)! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.' If then they turn back, say ye: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).' (The Noble Quran, 3:64)"


Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!" (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"

Peace out.

 

[Kittygyal]

Thanks for the explanation Islam Gyal.

Thanks
Nimrod

no worries

take care

 

[Arch_warrior]

Quote:
blus how can a human being be a God
dat in itself unbelievable


Why is that unbelievable? God can do anything can't He? Why not be a human being?


sorrry why would god choose to be the creation he is testing!!! , see thats pagan thinking!!! , thats why many christians are converting to islam , they cant come to accept that god is human face the facts!!

 

[Kittygyal]

Quote:
blus how can a human being be a God
dat in itself unbelievable


Why is that unbelievable? God can do anything can't He? Why not be a human being?


sorrry why would god choose to be the creation he is testing!!! , see thats pagan thinking!!! , thats why many christians are converting to islam , they cant come to accept that god is human face the facts!!

that is so true bro cause i have converted and believe me i have learnt alot we all know the ''bible'' was changed and also we know Jesus was not god or son of god!

we all know izlam is the truth religion and most christians can not take that!

take care

 

[HeiGou]

blus how can a human being be a God. dat in itself unbelievable

Why is that unbelievable? God can do anything can't He? Why not be a human being?

sorrry why would god choose to be the creation he is testing!!! , see thats pagan thinking!!! , thats why many christians are converting to islam , they cant come to accept that god is human face the facts!!

Why wouldn't God do that? He chose to manifest Himself as a Burning Bush. Hwo is it pagan thinking? And many Christians are not converting to Islam. Some are. Especially if they meet a nice Muslim man. The number of Christians who are convinced of the logic of Islam is probably no higher than the number of Muslims who are convinced of the logic of Christianity.

Are you saying God is inhuman?

What facts are there to face?

 

[HeiGou]

that is so true bro cause i have converted and believe me i have learnt alot we all know the ''bible'' was changed and also we know Jesus was not god or son of god!

we all know izlam is the truth religion and most christians can not take that!

Who is this "we" you keep going on about? What is your evidence that the Bible has been changed and that Jesus was neither God nor the Son of God?

Of course most Christians do not accept Islam is the true religion. Or they would become Muslims.

 

[Kittygyal]

all the muzlims

take care

 

[Skillganon]

Why wouldn't God do that? He chose to manifest Himself as a Burning Bush. Hwo is it pagan thinking? And many Christians are not converting to Islam. Some are. Especially if they meet a nice Muslim man. The number of Christians who are convinced of the logic of Islam is probably no higher than the number of Muslims who are convinced of the logic of Christianity.

Are you saying God is inhuman?

What facts are there to face?

Are you saying God is human?