Did Jesus (p) Deny Being God?

sumay28 said:
Most muslims know the bible better than a Christian! And I've seen on this thread alone, many quotes from the bible that I consider significant proof that 1.) Jesus is NOT God, and 2.) The Bible has been corrupted. ONE GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The fact that some Muslims can go to an Atheist or Apologetics site and cut and paste is hardly proof that they know the Bible better than Christians. Although there are former Christians here who apparently wouldn't recognise the Bible if it hit them on the head.

What proof have you seen that the Bible has been corrupted?
 
sumay28 said:
If you've got a gallon of apple juice, and a drop of urine is in it.. would you drink it?
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does urine and apple juice even look a like? exactly.... well like I would like to state is that if their is no resurrection of the dead then our faith is futile and if our faith is futile then we are still in our sins... but thanks be to God that we are no longer in our sins.. but then again you say we are anti-christ.
 
bro the only thing that all muzlims will say that the ''bible'' is wrong nd yea the christains say that the koran is wrong and NOt the truth but then again if you think about itm that's what the muzlims believe and that's what christains believe :)

take care
 
salam,

I admit i dont know much about christianity. All i know uis some things I read about it when I studied english literature in the university. All I ve leant from my studies that the European world in the 11 th century undergoing a critical circumstances: corruption on different levels and diseases. The church men had so many priviliges and they used to use religion as means to exploit people and serve their own interests. Their religious doctrines were very strict but most church men were not practising their religion as it should be.
200 years, the Western world had spent to seperate religion from all domains of life not only from politics. I agree with them to do so because the Western world has been developed after the rejection the strict religious teachings. Of course, islam is different, islam motivates Muslims to worship god and to be succesful in all domains of life mainly science. I know there are many stupid Muslims but those are not following the right path.

What i want to say, that as Muslims we are not against christianity or any other religion. In Islam, if you disbelief in any of the previous Divine messages or disbelieve in any Prophet, one's iman or faith is incomplete. We are sure that Bible from God, no suspiscion bout that. I have already read some chapters in the bible and I found that some things in the Bible similar to quran especiallt the issues related to death, the torment or the comfort that the person will witness in his tomb, and the paradise and hell. Adultey is not allowed in christianity, and many other things mentioned in the bible are similar to Quran. But what we do believe that some things mentioned in the bible has been modified and re-written by other people. Now, we can not know what is written by God and what is written by human beings. since we can not make this difference, we prefer not to take into consideration its teachings. We do believe and respect christianity and the Bible , but we cant follow not agree with what is mentioned in it because it is not 100% from God.

Listen, dont tell me to provide you with a proof which shows that the Bible has been modified somewhere else except from Quran. Do you prefer to provide with a reference or a book written by an ordinary human being instead of providing you with prooves taken from Quran.

Even, if you believe that there are no scintific facts in Quran, our Book is a miracle. the language used in it is a miracle in itself, you cant understand this if you dont read Quran in arabic. The Arab linguists are fascinated by the perfect language used in Quran. Our Book describes many incidents happened in the past with a clarity not found in anywhere else. In surah "Joseph", God mentions the whole life of joseph in few sentences focusing on the most important events of the story. This cant written by ordinary human being, this cant be written by our Prophet because we know that Mohammes "PBUH" was illitrate. i know also there many great writters and dramatist like shakespear, Oscar wild, DHLaurence, Samuel becket and many others in different centuries have good style,too, but they can never reach the level of perfection in which our Book is written.

What is the problem if you believe in our book and in our Prophet. Our religion is like yours, but the main diffrence is that we believe in goid without associating anything and anyone with him, and you, Christians say that God has son. We believe that Jesus is a Prophet and Messenger of God like our Prophet Mohammed and other Prophets. We just believe that quran and our Prophet is better that the other Prophets because He is the seal of all
Prophets. Islam is a message delivered to all humanity without exceptiion and other religions are sent to some nation without the other. Islam is a religion of equilibruim between body and soul a,d Judaism and christianism are religions of spiritualism.

Please read these two verses which proove that the quran stresses the prophecy of Jesus and falsity of monasticism which was fabricated by christians. In surah "Al-Hadded or Iron" ,verse (25,26,27) God says: " And We sent Noah and Abraham, and established in their line Prophethood and Revelation: and some of them were on right guidance, but many of them became rebellious transgressors / Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of Allah; but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors".

If you dont believe in Quran, of course, you will care about this proof. But I belive that this proof is more precious that any other proof found in any other book written by chomsky, Darwin, Marx, or whoever.

Thanks
 
thanks sis for the info and i agree with you what ever the ''christains'' believe thats them and what muzlim believe thats them if you think about it thats there religion :happy:
 
how can anyone dispute the authenticity of the quran people like me have been memorizing its content word for every word...cover to cover since the time of the prophet p.b.u.h
 
well bro you have to think about the ''christains'' point of view too :)

take care
 
hafizmo said:
how can anyone dispute the authenticity of the quran people like me have been memorizing its content word for every word...cover to cover since the time of the prophet p.b.u.h
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For the Quran to be authentic it has to be transmitted from God to Gabriel to Muhammed to his Followers, among His Followers for a while before being written down under Umar or Uthman. How does the fact that people like you have memorized its content word for word, cover to cover, prove that every single link in that chain is certain and guaranteed? Only one of them has to be wrong for the wole chain to be worthless. Now I do not dispute the fact that the chain may be right, but I fail to see how your memorisation proves that chain is right.
 
ivanna25 said:
The church men had so many priviliges and they used to use religion as means to exploit people and serve their own interests. Their religious doctrines were very strict but most church men were not practising their religion as it should be.
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Not entirely unknown in the Muslim world either. And interesting (but perhaps a little advanced) question would be why that exploitation should have produced two very dissimilar responses.

Of course, islam is different, islam motivates Muslims to worship god and to be succesful in all domains of life mainly science. I know there are many stupid Muslims but those are not following the right path.
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What makes you say that? Most Muslim sites will claim that Islam and science are reconcilable and Islam has no problem with science, but any too strong defence of evolution will still get you banned on many of them.

What i want to say, that as Muslims we are not against christianity or any other religion. In Islam, if you disbelief in any of the previous Divine messages or disbelieve in any Prophet, one's iman or faith is incomplete.
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Except surely Muslims are required to believe what Muslim say Christianity and Judaism really are, and not what Jews says Judaism is or what Christians say Christianity is. So the statement is simply illogical. I am happy to agree that Muslims venerate Issa, but there is a very different understanding of who He is compared to the Christian understanding of Jesus.

We are sure that Bible from God, no suspiscion bout that.
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Except by "Bible" you mean some other more authentic Bible and not the one that Christians believe in and by "Torah" you mean some other OT, and not the one that Jews believe in?

We do believe and respect christianity and the Bible , but we cant follow not agree with what is mentioned in it because it is not 100% from God.
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Again you cannot say that you believe and respect Christianity while also saying you think it is a human invention. Not unless you mean something totally different to the rest of us by "believe" and "respect". What you mean is that you know better than Christians what Christianity is about and they are wrong.

Listen, dont tell me to provide you with a proof which shows that the Bible has been modified somewhere else except from Quran. Do you prefer to provide with a reference or a book written by an ordinary human being instead of providing you with prooves taken from Quran.
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Well yes I do actually. But I won't ask. I'll just point out the obvious - to people who do not believe in the Quran, the Quran is not going to be very convincing.

Please read these two verses which proove that the quran stresses the prophecy of Jesus and falsity of monasticism which was fabricated by christians.
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There you go - fabrication. You can't make that claim and still claim to respect Christians or Christianity. Now I do not care much what you believe and I wouldn't want to try to talk you into becoming anything else, but you need to be honest about what you believe. And what you believe is grossly offensive to Christians and, I assume, Jews.
 
"What i want to say, that as Muslims we are not against christianity or any other religion. In Islam, if you disbelief in any of the previous Divine messages or disbelieve in any Prophet, one's iman or faith is incomplete."

I am not so sure that is a very complete statement after seeing the news items about the fellow in Afganistan being threatened with beheading.

Thanks
Nimrod
 
May peace and blessings be upon you all.
Going through the thread, the argument is still about wether the Bible is corrupted or not. Most christians , I know believe that it was. But i just don't understand why some members in here argue that it isn't. There are many questions that those who believe that the bible is uncorrupted have to answer. One of them is: Why does it contain a lot of contradictions?

This is an article by Bassam Zawadi. Here is a list of few contradictions in the Bible that no Christian has a logical explanation for:

1)How many generations were there between Abraham to David? Matthew 1:17 lists fourteen generations. Matthew 1:12-16 lists thirteen generations.

2)Who approached Jesus? (Matthew 8:5-7) The Centurion approached Jesus, beseeching help for a sick servant. (Luke 7:3 & 7:6-7) The Centurion did not approach Jesus. He sent friends and elders of the Jews.

3) Paul’s attendants heard the miraculous voice and stood speechless. Acts 9:7 Paul’s attendants did not hear the voice and were prostrate. Acts 22:9 & 26:14

For a detailed regarding this issue, read
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1994/1/1voice94.html

4) Was she dead or just dying? (Matthew 9:18) He asked for help, saying his daughter was already dead. (Luke 8:41-42) Jairus approached Jesus for help, because his daughter was dying.

5) Just what did Jesus instruct them to take? (Matthew 10:10) Jesus instructed them not to take a staff, not to wear sandals. (Mark 6:8-9) Jesus instructed his disciples to wear sandals and take a staff on their journey.

6) When did the fig tree hear of its doom? (Matthew 21:17-19) Jesus cursed the fig tree after purging the temple. (Mark 11:14-15 & 20) He cursed it before the purging.

7) Was John the Baptist Elias? "This is Elias which was to come." Matthew 11:14 "And they asked him, what then? Art thou Elias? And he said I am not." John l:21

8) Where was the infant taken? Matthew 2:15, 19 & 21-23 The infant Christ was taken into Egypt. Luke 2:22 & 39 The infant Christ was NOT taken to Egypt.

9) Where did Christ preach his first sermon? Matthew 5:1-2 Christ preached his first sermon on the mount. Luke 6:17 & 20 Christ preached his first sermon in the plain.

10) Where did the devil take Jesus first? (Matthew 4:5-8) The Devil took Jesus first to the parapet of the temple, then to a high place to view all the Kingdoms of the world. (Luke 4:5-9) The Devil took Jesus first to a high place to view the kingdoms, then to the parapet of the temple.

11) What color was the robe the blessed Jesus was put in? And they stripped him and put a scarlet robe upon him. (Matthew 27:28). And the soldiers plaited a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and arrayed him in a purple robe. (John 19:2)

12) In 1 Corinthians 1:17 ("For Christ sent me [Paul] not to baptize but to preach the gospel") Paul said Jesus was wrong when he said in Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them…" Clearly one of these people is wrong, either way, it’s a contradiction. On top of that even Peter taught it, 1 Pet. 3:21, "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also -- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

13) Has anyone ascended up to heaven? Elijah went up to heaven: "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2 Kings 2:11 "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man." John 3:13

14) How many angels were within the sepulcher? John 20:11-12 two, Mark 16:5 one. Just incase that they are not mutually exclusive then say that in Mark 16:6 it shows that one person was talking but in John 20:13 it shows two people talking. Now that is mutually exclusive.

15) Where did Jesus first appear to the eleven disciples? In a room in Jerusalem. Luke 24:32-37 On a mountain in Galilee. Matthew 28:15-17

16) Where did Christ ascend from? From Mount Olives. Acts 1:9-12 From Bethany. Luke 24:50-51

17) The Elijah mystery: (Malachi 4:5) Elijah must return before the final days of the world. (Matthew 11:12-14) Jesus said that John the Baptist was Elijah. (Matthew 17:12- 13) Jesus insists that Elijah has already come, and everyone understood him to mean John the Baptist. (Mark 9:13) Jesus insists that Elijah has already come. (John 1:21) John the Baptist maintained that he was not Elijah.

18) NO of days. Jesus took Peter, James and John up the mountain six days (Matthew 17:1) or eight days (Luke 9:7) after he told them that they will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

19 Matthew 4:18-20 shows that Jesus talked to Peter and Andrew together and they both followed him together but John 1:40-42, shows Andrew followed Jesus first and then he went and informed Peter.

20) Who bought the Sepulcher? Jacob, Josh 24:32 Abraham, Acts 7:16

21) Are we saved by works as well as faith? Ephesians 2:8-9 says no and James 2:24 says yes.

22) James 1:13 says God tempts no man but Genesis 22:1 says that God tempted Abraham.

This is a very small sample of thousands of other contradictions. Probably most of them are answered by Christians, however there are still dozens and dozens of more contradictions which are important and relate to key issues of doctrine that have not been logically answered.

I only provided a small sample, which I find to be enough to show that the New Testament cannot be the complete true word of God when it contains these errors.

Peace and blessings.
 
A few things I have learned from this thread. The rift between Islam and Christianity is more basic than I had thought. When I read the Koran the first time and as I re-read it now, I had assumed that there was much common ground to work from.

I have been amazed at the number of times the “well your bible has been corrupted so we don’t believe any or most of it” card has been played when there is no other logical reason left for dismissing a cited scripture.

I have been amazed to see folks say that God has protected the Koran from corruption so that its basic message remains true to the original understanding, all the while believing that God didn’t or couldn’t do so for the Bible.

I have been amazed to see the number of times that Muslims while agreeing that man can’t stop God’s good work, then go on to assume that the Bible had became so corrupted by mankind that it no longer allowed God’s good work to go forward and that a new revelation had to be brought forth. To believe that is to believe that God is a poor planner and a poor thinker.

How does the Koran fulfill the Bible's New Testament? To believe the Koran you have to pretty much throw out the Bible's New Testament.

God’s good work goes forward in spite of man, not because of man. There is nothing a man can do to stop God’s good work. God won’t allow it.
Do you really believe that God would allow his word to become so corrupt that its basic message would be lost and changed to the point that believing the New Testament message of “Jesus is Lord” would be wrong and the cause of a man, who believes the message, being sent to Hell?

Jesus explained the whole message of the Bible perfectly in his answer to the question about which was the most important part of the Law.

#1 To know God is God and to respect God and God’s wish’s.
#2 To love our fellow man as we love ourselves.

The Old Testament teaches the lesson of #1 over and over. That IS the core message of the Old Testament.

The New Testament teaches the lesson of #2 over and over. That IS the core message of the New Testament.

The Old Testament contains many verses stating just who Jesus is. The New Testament contains many verses showing how Jesus fulfilled those Old Testament verses.

Where is the logic in this:

God protects the Koran from corruption so that its followers don’t become mislead, but somehow he didn’t/couldn’t do the same thing for the Bible so that its followers don’t become mislead?

It makes no sense.

Some folks on this thread have wondered why I remain unconvinced of Islam.

The arguments I have seen put forth on this thread make no sense.

May God bless and enlighten us all.

Thanks
Nimrod
 
excuse us i have reverted and i did no about ''christainity'':offended: :offended: :offended: :offended:
 
islamgyal said:
excuse us i have reverted and i did no about ''christainity'':offended: :offended: :offended: :offended:
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Well don't be offended. I am glad you have found a faith that agrees with you so well. May I ask what you were before you became a Muslima?
 
Al-Mu’min, pick out what you feel is the best example (from your posted list) of a scripture that has been corrupted, so it that no longer shows that Jesus is Lord, or, that has been corrupted so now it shows the Jesus is Lord.

Pick one out, argue it either way you wish, to show it was corrupted in favor of ”Jesus is Lord”, or, that the probable original scripture was against “Jesus is Lord”.

Pick one out and we will discuss it. Other wise your list is meaning less to the thread’s title.

Thanks
Nimrod
 
HeiGou said:
For the Quran to be authentic it has to be transmitted from God to Gabriel to Muhammed to his Followers, among His Followers for a while before being written down under Umar or Uthman. How does the fact that people like you have memorized its content word for word, cover to cover, prove that every single link in that chain is certain and guaranteed? Only one of them has to be wrong for the wole chain to be worthless. Now I do not dispute the fact that the chain may be right, but I fail to see how your memorisation proves that chain is right.
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sorry I used the wrong wording then i guess I meant like nothing has been changed in it...like the script has been preserved
 

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