Did Jesus (p) Deny Being God?
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Ivanna "Why you want me to go to your bible to find the proves that Jesus is God's son or he is God Himself"
If a Mormon came to you with his "New Revelation" wouldn't you point out that it doesn't agree with your Holy Book? Wouldn't you cite your Holy Book and show him why his "Holy Book" is wrong?
If his arguements made no sense would you believe him?
Thanks
Nimrod
If a Mormon came to you with his "New Revelation" wouldn't you point out that it doesn't agree with your Holy Book? Wouldn't you cite your Holy Book and show him why his "Holy Book" is wrong?
If his arguements made no sense would you believe him?
Thanks
Nimrod
*Hana*
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Peace Nimrod:
I could easily answer that for you, however, this has been thoroughly discussed on this forum and, quite frankly, you made the false statement before checking the authenticity of it, so I feel it is your responsibility to locate the information yourself rather than me answering what has already been answered in its entirety. It would also be far more beneficial for you to read, learn and understand for yourself.
Sincerely, and with Peace,
Hana
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Peace Nimrod:
Ok, I had a change of heart,
I'll give you one link that you can read and, inshallah (God willing), you will have much better knowledge regarding the preservation of the Qur'an. Click Here
Peace,
Hana
Ok, I had a change of heart,
I'll give you one link that you can read and, inshallah (God willing), you will have much better knowledge regarding the preservation of the Qur'an. Click HerePeace,
Hana
Hana_Aku, I have seen that information discussed before, that is why I asked the questions I asked.
Why was what was burned, burned? What reason was cited? What are the implacations of the reason given?
BTW THANKS!!!! for relenting and providing a link. I can use all the learning I can get.
Thanks
Nimrod
Why was what was burned, burned? What reason was cited? What are the implacations of the reason given?
BTW THANKS!!!! for relenting and providing a link. I can use all the learning I can get.
Thanks
Nimrod
*Hana*
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Peace Nimrod:
You are more than welcome for the link. I read it to ensure it would answer all your questions, and it does.
It's not a matter of what was in them, as you will see, it was the concern of different dialects in the area using, for example, different words that might alter the meaning over time. As I'm sure you are aware, there are some words in one language that cannot be translated exactly into another. The perfect example is Allah. The arabic word Allah cannot be made gender specific, pluralized or added to other words to make new words. The nearest translation in English is the word God. However, this word, in English, does not stand alone as it does in Arabic. It can become goddess, gods, godmother, etc. That's just a simple example, but I'm confident once you read the link you will have a perfect understanding, inshallah
Peace,
Hana
Hana_Aku, you have been most kind in your responses. Not only to me but to everyone else as well. I thank you for that.
There is more than a little bit of illogic in your last post though. The hour is late, so I so address it tommorow, God willing.
I do want to end this post with a word of thanks to you for how you have conducted yourself though, THANKS!!
May God bless and enlighten us all.
Thanks
Nimrod
There is more than a little bit of illogic in your last post though. The hour is late, so I so address it tommorow, God willing.
I do want to end this post with a word of thanks to you for how you have conducted yourself though, THANKS!!
May God bless and enlighten us all.
Thanks
Nimrod
I know of no evidence that any Jew has ever claimed that Ezra is the Son of God. Ansar Al-Adl has said that there was a sect of Jews in Arabia way back then who thought that. But try to find some evidence of such a sect ever existing. Indeed I would argue that if they did, they ceased to be Jews.
Not really. No one is saying that God produced sons like human beings do. In fact I don't see much difference between the Christian view of how Jesus was born and the Muslim.
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Peace Nimrod:
As I said this was just a simple example so I don't see where illogic comes into play here. Unless you feel that every word in every language can be translated exactly? Don't forget, we are talking about a period of over 1400 years. Uthman was well aware of what can happen over a period of time to text that is translated, re-translated, over and over and over. He saw what happened to the revelation given the Christians and Jews as his own example. Not to mention the fact that original revelation, manuscripts, get lost, destroyed, etc.
But, I'll wait to hear what you mean by illogical.
Take care and peace,
Hana
ps: Thank you for your kind words, and I pray Allah, swt, blesses you with guidance. Ameen
Last edited:
I am sorry for my last post to you in a sense was not a good one.. it seemed like I was angered or frusterated. that is not who I am I am not angered and I am not frusterated.
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Peace PrIM3:
No, not a problem. I didn't take it that you were angry....a little frustrated perhaps, but that's to be expected sometimes when we are passionate about our beliefs. Not to worry...I wasn't the least bit offended and have been known to get a little frustrated myself sometimes. :statisfie
Peace,
Hana
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May peace and blessings be upon you all.
Thank you sister Hana for answering the questions of our Christian brothers. Now it's interesting that Paul was mentioned and I taught we should first study how the doctrine of the Trinity got started. Since the topic is about Jesus' divinity, it's interesting to know that this concept was formulated a few hundred years after his [PBUH] death. Here is a brief history of events leading to the establishment of the doctrine:
Who invented the trinity?
The three monotheistic religions - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam -
all purport to share one fundamental concept: belief in God as the
Supreme Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Known as
"tawhid" in Islam, this concept of the Oneness of God was stressed by
Moses in a Biblical passage known as the "Shema," or the Jewish creed of
faith: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4)
It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus
when he said: "...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel;
the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)
Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same
message again: "And your God is One God: There is no God but He, ..."
(The Qur'an 2:163)
Christianity has digressed from the concept of the Oneness of God,
however, into a vague and mysterious doctrine that was formulated during
the fourth century. This doctrine, which continues to be a source of
controversy both within and without the Christian religion, is known as
the Doctrine of the Trinity. Simply put, the Christian doctrine of the
Trinity states that God is the union of three divine persons - the
Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - in one divine being.
If that concept, put in basic terms, sounds confusing, the flowery
language in the actual text of the doctrine lends even more mystery to
the matter:
"...we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity... for there is
one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost
is all one... they are not three gods, but one God... the whole three
persons are co-eternal and co-equal... he therefore that will be save
must thus think of the Trinity..." (excerpts from the Athanasian Creed)
Let's put this together in a different form: one person, God the Father
+one person, God the Son + one person, God the Holy Ghost =one person,
God.
It is said that Athanasius, the bishop who formulated this doctrine,
confessed that the more he wrote on the matter, the less capable he was
of clearly expressing his thoughts regarding it.
How did such a confusing doctrine get its start?
2. Trinity in the Bible
References in the Bible to a Trinity of divine beings are vague, at
best.
In Matthew 28:19, we find Jesus telling his disciples to go out and
preach to all nations. While the "Great Commission" does make mention of
the three persons who later become components of the Trinity, the phrase
"...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the
Holy Ghost" is quite clearly an addition to Biblical text - that is, not
the actual words of Jesus - as can be seen by two factors:
1) Baptism in the early Church, as discussed by Paul in his letters, was
done only in the name of Jesus; and
2) The "Great Commission" was found in the first gospel written, that of
Mark, bears no mention of Father, Son and/or Holy Ghost - see Mark
16:15.
The only other reference in the Bible to a Trinity can be found in the
Epistle of I John 5:7, Biblical scholars of today, however, have
admitted that the phrase "...there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is
definitely a "later addition" to Biblical test, and it is not found in
any of today's versions of the Bible.
It can, therefore, be seen that the concept of a Trinity of divine
beings was not an idea put forth by Jesus or any other prophet of God.
This doctrine, now subscribed to by Christians all over the world, is
entirely man-made in origin.
3. The Doctrine Takes Shape
While Paul of Tarsus, the man who could rightfully be considered the
true founder of Christianity, did formulate many of its doctrines, that
of the Trinity was not among them. He did, however, lay the groundwork
for such when he put forth the idea of Jesus being a "divine Son." After
all, a Son does need a Father, and what about a vehicle for God's
revelations to man? In essence, Paul named the principal players, but it
was the later Church people who put the matter together.
Tertullian, a lawyer and presbyter of the third century Church in
Carthage, was the first to use the word "Trinity" when he put forth the
theory that the Son and the Spirit participate in the being of God, but
all are of one being of substance with the Father.
4. Formal Doctrine is Drawnup
When controversy over the matter of the Trinity blew up in 318 between
two church men from Alexandria - Arius, the deacon, and Alexander, his
bishop - Emperor Constantine stepped into the fray.
Although Christian dogma was a complete mystery to him, he did realize
that a unified church was necessary for a strong kingdom. When
negotiation failed to settle the dispute, Constantine called for the
first ecumenical council in Church history in order to settle the matter
once and for all.
Six weeks after the 300 bishopsfirst gathered at Nicea in 325, the
doctrine of the Trinity was hammered out. The God of the Christians was
now seen as having three essences, or natures, in the form of the
Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
5.Church Puts its Foot down
The matter was far from settled, however, despite high hopes for such on
the part of Constantine. Arius and the new bishop of Alexandria, a man
named Athanasius, began arguing over the matter even as the Nicene Creed
was being signed; "Arianism" became a catch-word from that time onward
for anyone who did not hold to the doctrine of the Trinity.
It wasn't until 451, at the Council of Chalcedon that, with the approval
of the Pope, the Nicene/Constantinople Creed was set as authoritative.
Debate on the matter was no longer tolerated; to speak out against the
Trinity was now considered blasphemy, and such earned stiff sentences
that ranged from mutilation to death. Christians now turned on
Christians, maiming and slaughtering thousands because of a difference
of opinion.
6. The Debate Continues...
Brutal punishments and even death did not stop the controversy over the
doctrine of the Trinity, however, and the said controversy continues
even today.
The majority of Christians, when asked to explain this fundamental
doctrine of their faith, can offer nothing more than "I believe it
because I was told to do so." It is explained away as "mystery" - yet
the Bible says in I Corinthians 14:33 that "... God is not the author of
confusion..."
The Unitarian denomination of Christianity has kept alive the teachings
of Arius in saying that God is one; they do not believe in the Trinity.
As a result, mainstream Christians abhor them, and the National Council
of Churches has refused their admittance. In Unitarianism, the hope is
kept alive that Christians will someday return to the preachings of
Jesus: "...Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou
serve." (Luke 4:8)
7. Islam and the Matter of The Trinity
While Christianity may have a problem defining the essence of God, such
is not the case in Islam.
"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for
there is no god except One God." (Qur'an 5:73) It is worth noting that
the Arabic language Bible uses the name "Allah" as the name of God.
Suzanne Haneef, in her book WHAT EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW ABOUT ISLAM AND
MUSLIMS (Library of Islam, 1985), puts the matter quite succinctly when
she says, "But God is not like a pie or an apple which can be divided
into three thirds which form one whole; if God is three persons or
possesses three parts, He is assuredly not the Single, Unique,
Indivisible Being which God is and which Christianity professes to
believe in." (pp. 183-184)
Looking at it from another angle, the Trinity designates God as being
three separate entities - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If
God is the Father and also the Son, He would then be the Father of
Himself because He is His own Son. This is not exactly logical.
Christianity claims to be a monotheistic religion. Monotheism, however,
has as its fundamental belief that God is One; the Christian doctrine of
the Trinity - God being Three-in-One - is seen by Islam as a form of
polytheism. Christians don't revere just One God, they revere three.
This is a charge not taken lightly by Christians, however. They, in
turn, accuse the Muslims of not even knowing what the Trinity is,
pointing out that the Qur'an sets it up as Allah the Father, Jesus the
Son, and Mary his mother. While veneration of Mary has been a figment of
the Catholic Church since 431 when she was given the title "Mother of
God" by the Council of Ephesus, a closer examination of the verse in the
Qur'an most often cited by Christians in support of their accusation,
shows that the designation of Mary by the Qur'an as a "member" of the
Trinity, is simply not true.
While the Qur'an does condemn both trinitarianism (the Qur'an 4:17) and
the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Qur'an 5:116), nowhere
does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity.
The position of the Qur'an is that WHO or WHAT comprises this doctrine
is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity
is an affront against the concept of One God.
In conclusion, we see that the doctrine of the Trinity is a concept
conceived entirely by man; there is no sanction whatsoever from God to
be found regarding the matter simply because the whole idea of a Trinity
of divine beings has no place in monotheism. In the Qur'an, God's Final
Revelations to mankind, we find His stand quite clearly stated in a
number of eloquent passages:
"...your God is One God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work
righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as
partner." (Qur'an 18:110)
"...take not, with God, another object of worship, lest you should be
thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected." (Qur'an 17:39)
"...Because, as God tells us over and over again in a Message that is
echoed throughout All His Revealed Scriptures:
"...I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore, serve Me (and no other)..."
(Qur'an 21:92)
-- Aisha Brown
Towards better understanding. Until then,
peace and blessings.
Thank you sister Hana for answering the questions of our Christian brothers. Now it's interesting that Paul was mentioned and I taught we should first study how the doctrine of the Trinity got started. Since the topic is about Jesus' divinity, it's interesting to know that this concept was formulated a few hundred years after his [PBUH] death. Here is a brief history of events leading to the establishment of the doctrine:
Who invented the trinity?
The three monotheistic religions - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam -
all purport to share one fundamental concept: belief in God as the
Supreme Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Known as
"tawhid" in Islam, this concept of the Oneness of God was stressed by
Moses in a Biblical passage known as the "Shema," or the Jewish creed of
faith: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4)
It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus
when he said: "...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel;
the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)
Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same
message again: "And your God is One God: There is no God but He, ..."
(The Qur'an 2:163)
Christianity has digressed from the concept of the Oneness of God,
however, into a vague and mysterious doctrine that was formulated during
the fourth century. This doctrine, which continues to be a source of
controversy both within and without the Christian religion, is known as
the Doctrine of the Trinity. Simply put, the Christian doctrine of the
Trinity states that God is the union of three divine persons - the
Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - in one divine being.
If that concept, put in basic terms, sounds confusing, the flowery
language in the actual text of the doctrine lends even more mystery to
the matter:
"...we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity... for there is
one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost
is all one... they are not three gods, but one God... the whole three
persons are co-eternal and co-equal... he therefore that will be save
must thus think of the Trinity..." (excerpts from the Athanasian Creed)
Let's put this together in a different form: one person, God the Father
+one person, God the Son + one person, God the Holy Ghost =one person,
God.
It is said that Athanasius, the bishop who formulated this doctrine,
confessed that the more he wrote on the matter, the less capable he was
of clearly expressing his thoughts regarding it.
How did such a confusing doctrine get its start?
2. Trinity in the Bible
References in the Bible to a Trinity of divine beings are vague, at
best.
In Matthew 28:19, we find Jesus telling his disciples to go out and
preach to all nations. While the "Great Commission" does make mention of
the three persons who later become components of the Trinity, the phrase
"...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the
Holy Ghost" is quite clearly an addition to Biblical text - that is, not
the actual words of Jesus - as can be seen by two factors:
1) Baptism in the early Church, as discussed by Paul in his letters, was
done only in the name of Jesus; and
2) The "Great Commission" was found in the first gospel written, that of
Mark, bears no mention of Father, Son and/or Holy Ghost - see Mark
16:15.
The only other reference in the Bible to a Trinity can be found in the
Epistle of I John 5:7, Biblical scholars of today, however, have
admitted that the phrase "...there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is
definitely a "later addition" to Biblical test, and it is not found in
any of today's versions of the Bible.
It can, therefore, be seen that the concept of a Trinity of divine
beings was not an idea put forth by Jesus or any other prophet of God.
This doctrine, now subscribed to by Christians all over the world, is
entirely man-made in origin.
3. The Doctrine Takes Shape
While Paul of Tarsus, the man who could rightfully be considered the
true founder of Christianity, did formulate many of its doctrines, that
of the Trinity was not among them. He did, however, lay the groundwork
for such when he put forth the idea of Jesus being a "divine Son." After
all, a Son does need a Father, and what about a vehicle for God's
revelations to man? In essence, Paul named the principal players, but it
was the later Church people who put the matter together.
Tertullian, a lawyer and presbyter of the third century Church in
Carthage, was the first to use the word "Trinity" when he put forth the
theory that the Son and the Spirit participate in the being of God, but
all are of one being of substance with the Father.
4. Formal Doctrine is Drawnup
When controversy over the matter of the Trinity blew up in 318 between
two church men from Alexandria - Arius, the deacon, and Alexander, his
bishop - Emperor Constantine stepped into the fray.
Although Christian dogma was a complete mystery to him, he did realize
that a unified church was necessary for a strong kingdom. When
negotiation failed to settle the dispute, Constantine called for the
first ecumenical council in Church history in order to settle the matter
once and for all.
Six weeks after the 300 bishopsfirst gathered at Nicea in 325, the
doctrine of the Trinity was hammered out. The God of the Christians was
now seen as having three essences, or natures, in the form of the
Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
5.Church Puts its Foot down
The matter was far from settled, however, despite high hopes for such on
the part of Constantine. Arius and the new bishop of Alexandria, a man
named Athanasius, began arguing over the matter even as the Nicene Creed
was being signed; "Arianism" became a catch-word from that time onward
for anyone who did not hold to the doctrine of the Trinity.
It wasn't until 451, at the Council of Chalcedon that, with the approval
of the Pope, the Nicene/Constantinople Creed was set as authoritative.
Debate on the matter was no longer tolerated; to speak out against the
Trinity was now considered blasphemy, and such earned stiff sentences
that ranged from mutilation to death. Christians now turned on
Christians, maiming and slaughtering thousands because of a difference
of opinion.
6. The Debate Continues...
Brutal punishments and even death did not stop the controversy over the
doctrine of the Trinity, however, and the said controversy continues
even today.
The majority of Christians, when asked to explain this fundamental
doctrine of their faith, can offer nothing more than "I believe it
because I was told to do so." It is explained away as "mystery" - yet
the Bible says in I Corinthians 14:33 that "... God is not the author of
confusion..."
The Unitarian denomination of Christianity has kept alive the teachings
of Arius in saying that God is one; they do not believe in the Trinity.
As a result, mainstream Christians abhor them, and the National Council
of Churches has refused their admittance. In Unitarianism, the hope is
kept alive that Christians will someday return to the preachings of
Jesus: "...Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou
serve." (Luke 4:8)
7. Islam and the Matter of The Trinity
While Christianity may have a problem defining the essence of God, such
is not the case in Islam.
"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for
there is no god except One God." (Qur'an 5:73) It is worth noting that
the Arabic language Bible uses the name "Allah" as the name of God.
Suzanne Haneef, in her book WHAT EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW ABOUT ISLAM AND
MUSLIMS (Library of Islam, 1985), puts the matter quite succinctly when
she says, "But God is not like a pie or an apple which can be divided
into three thirds which form one whole; if God is three persons or
possesses three parts, He is assuredly not the Single, Unique,
Indivisible Being which God is and which Christianity professes to
believe in." (pp. 183-184)
Looking at it from another angle, the Trinity designates God as being
three separate entities - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If
God is the Father and also the Son, He would then be the Father of
Himself because He is His own Son. This is not exactly logical.
Christianity claims to be a monotheistic religion. Monotheism, however,
has as its fundamental belief that God is One; the Christian doctrine of
the Trinity - God being Three-in-One - is seen by Islam as a form of
polytheism. Christians don't revere just One God, they revere three.
This is a charge not taken lightly by Christians, however. They, in
turn, accuse the Muslims of not even knowing what the Trinity is,
pointing out that the Qur'an sets it up as Allah the Father, Jesus the
Son, and Mary his mother. While veneration of Mary has been a figment of
the Catholic Church since 431 when she was given the title "Mother of
God" by the Council of Ephesus, a closer examination of the verse in the
Qur'an most often cited by Christians in support of their accusation,
shows that the designation of Mary by the Qur'an as a "member" of the
Trinity, is simply not true.
While the Qur'an does condemn both trinitarianism (the Qur'an 4:17) and
the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Qur'an 5:116), nowhere
does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity.
The position of the Qur'an is that WHO or WHAT comprises this doctrine
is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity
is an affront against the concept of One God.
In conclusion, we see that the doctrine of the Trinity is a concept
conceived entirely by man; there is no sanction whatsoever from God to
be found regarding the matter simply because the whole idea of a Trinity
of divine beings has no place in monotheism. In the Qur'an, God's Final
Revelations to mankind, we find His stand quite clearly stated in a
number of eloquent passages:
"...your God is One God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work
righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as
partner." (Qur'an 18:110)
"...take not, with God, another object of worship, lest you should be
thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected." (Qur'an 17:39)
"...Because, as God tells us over and over again in a Message that is
echoed throughout All His Revealed Scriptures:
"...I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore, serve Me (and no other)..."
(Qur'an 21:92)
-- Aisha Brown
Towards better understanding. Until then,
peace and blessings.
Last edited:
Hello and peace Al-Mu'min
I dare to debate this... because there are verses in the OT that say God walked around with His creation protecting them.. which I'll find verses later...
but to name one. God walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.. He clothed them with clothes made from animals.. I wonder if this is the invisible God that did this or if God incarnated Himself and Shed blood for His people? because their clothes were from animals and they had to come from some dead animal...
Peace and blessings to you my friend Amen
Al-Mu'min
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Hi PrIM3,
May peace and blessings be upon you brother. I'm not sure i undrestand your point. I was talking about the formation of the trinity. Jesus, as i am aware is a part of it right? Iwas talking about the formation of the trinity.
I was not talking about God, or in your faith God the father. I believe God( the father in your case) was with Adam and Eve. Not sure about the walking part( Since our concept of Allah's figure in islam is unimaginable to us. We certainly believe He is nothing like a human being so I don't know if he "walked" with them.) though. Anyway what i am saying is the actions of clothing and the likewise was done( in my belief) by God. Not Jesus.
Are you saying a God incarnate( Jesus) is talked about in the OT walking around with Adam and Eve? Or is it God( the father) that is mentioned? As i know the OT only talks about God ( the father) right? And what does this have to do with dead animals?
Please ellaborate your point my friend and thank you for your interest.
Peace and blessings to you.
Al-Mu'min
Esteemed Member
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May peace and blessings be upon you all.
To follow up my previous post on the history of the Trinity, I want also discuss what the early Christians believed:
The Jews where not the only ones to reject the Trinity. In addition to the them, the very first groups of Christianity such as the Ebonites, the Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians, and the Hypisistarians never know about trinity doctrine at all. The Arians, Paulicians and Goths also accepted Jesus (peace be upon him) as a prophet of God and against the trinity.
Even in the modern age there are churches in Asia, in Africa, the Unitarian church, the Jehovah's witnesses, and even the majority of today's Anglican Bishops do not worship Jesus (peace be upon him) as one in three, as what been report by the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops."
Moreover, the 'Socinianism', the 17th-century Christian also rejects such traditional doctrines as the Trinity and original sin, the founder is Socinus, and his Latinized name of Lelio Francesco Maria Sozzini (1525-1562), the Italian Protestant theologian.
Johannes Greber (1874) a former of Catholic priest in his book 'The Communication with the Spirit World of God' in page 371 was written, "As you see, the doctrine of a triune Godhead is not only contrary to common sense, but is entirely unsupported by the Scriptures". So another priest who was deny the trinity.
A theologians, Edouard Schillebeeckx of the Netherlands in 1979 was writings some article that rejects the doctrine of the Trinity. This caused concern to the Vatican.
My questions are :
1.Why, for thousands of years, did none of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity?
2.At the least, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers?
3.Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the "central doctrine" of faith?
Towards better understanding with
peace and blessings.
To follow up my previous post on the history of the Trinity, I want also discuss what the early Christians believed:
The Jews where not the only ones to reject the Trinity. In addition to the them, the very first groups of Christianity such as the Ebonites, the Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians, and the Hypisistarians never know about trinity doctrine at all. The Arians, Paulicians and Goths also accepted Jesus (peace be upon him) as a prophet of God and against the trinity.
Even in the modern age there are churches in Asia, in Africa, the Unitarian church, the Jehovah's witnesses, and even the majority of today's Anglican Bishops do not worship Jesus (peace be upon him) as one in three, as what been report by the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops."
Moreover, the 'Socinianism', the 17th-century Christian also rejects such traditional doctrines as the Trinity and original sin, the founder is Socinus, and his Latinized name of Lelio Francesco Maria Sozzini (1525-1562), the Italian Protestant theologian.
Johannes Greber (1874) a former of Catholic priest in his book 'The Communication with the Spirit World of God' in page 371 was written, "As you see, the doctrine of a triune Godhead is not only contrary to common sense, but is entirely unsupported by the Scriptures". So another priest who was deny the trinity.
A theologians, Edouard Schillebeeckx of the Netherlands in 1979 was writings some article that rejects the doctrine of the Trinity. This caused concern to the Vatican.
My questions are :
1.Why, for thousands of years, did none of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity?
2.At the least, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers?
3.Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the "central doctrine" of faith?
Towards better understanding with
peace and blessings.
arabianprincess
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the thing that i dont get is that .. how u ppl write many different books of the bible and change them . and i mean how could they change it and write new things , i mean who tells them that is has been changed, isnt werid.
Kittygyal
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Al-Mu'min
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Hi guys,
May peace and blessings be upon you all.
For anyone who wants to learn more about Islam and Islam's relationship with other faiths, check this site out:
Beconvinced.com
It also has a good search engine which allows you to get what you are looking for.
May Allah grant us peace and understanding.
May peace and blessings be upon you all.
For anyone who wants to learn more about Islam and Islam's relationship with other faiths, check this site out:
Beconvinced.com
It also has a good search engine which allows you to get what you are looking for.
May Allah grant us peace and understanding.
Kittygyal
IB GrandMaster
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Al-Mu'min
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Salaams again,
Since we have now understood the history of the trinity and the beliefs of early Christians, a lot of questions arise from it. It's important for one to understand the answers to these questions before having complete faith in the doctrine. Looking into the Bible, these questions may come to mind:
1. Did Jesus Christ have two fathers? The Father is the Father of the Son (I John 1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35). Which one is the true father? Some trinitarians say that the Holy Ghost was merely the Father's agent in conception - a process they compare to artificial insemination.
2. How many Spirits are there? God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24), the Lord Jesus is a Spirit (II Corinthians 3:17), and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit by definition. Yet there is one Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).
3. If Father and Son are co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the Father? (Matthew 11:25). May God pray to God?
4. Similarly, how can the Son not know as much as the Father? (Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32).
5. Similarly, how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? (John 5:19, 30; 6:38).
6. Similarly, what about other verses of Scripture indicating the inequality of the Son and the Father? (John 8:42; 14:28; I Corinthians 11:3).
7. Did "God the Son" die? The Bible says the Son died (Romans 5:10). If so, can God die? Can part of God die?
8. How can there be an eternal Son when the Bible speaks of the begotten Son, clearly indicating that the Son had a beginning? (John 3:16; Hebrews 1:5-6).
9. If the Son is eternal and existed at creation, who was His mother at that time? We know the Son was made of a woman (Galatians 4:4).
10. Did "God the Son" surrender His omnipresence while on earth? If so, how could he still be God?
11. If the Son is eternal and immutable (unchangeable), how can the reign of the Son have an ending? (I Corinthians 15:24-28).
12. If in answer to questions 3 through 11 we say only the human Son of God was limited in knowledge, was limited in power, and died, then how can we speak of "God the Son"? Are there two Sons?
13. Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father (John 4:21-24), yet Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts 7:59-60).
14. Can there be more than three persons in the Godhead? Certainly the Old Testament does not teach three but emphasizes oneness. If the New Testament adds to the Old Testament message and teaches three persons, then what is to prevent subsequent revelations of additional persons? If we apply trinitarian logic to interpret some verses of Scripture, we could teach a fourth person (Isaiah 48:16; Colossians 1:3; 2:2; I Thessalonians 3:11; James 1:27). Likewise, we could interpret some verses of Scripture to mean six more persons (Revelation 3:1; 5:6).
15. Are there three Spirits in a Christian's heart? Father, Jesus, and the Spirit all dwell within a Christian (John 14:17, 23; Romans 8:9; Ephesians 3:14-17). Yet there is one Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).
16. There is only one throne in heaven (Revelation 4:2). Who sits upon it? We know Jesus does (Revelation 1:8,18, 4:8). Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?
17. If Jesus is on the throne, how can He sit on the right hand of God? (Mark 16:19). Does He sit or stand on the right hand of God? (Acts 7:55). Or is He in the Father's bosom? (John 1:18).
18. Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus? Colossians 2:9 says the latter.
19. Given Matthew 28:19, why did the apostles consistently baptize both Jews and Gentiles using the name of Jesus, even to the extent of rebaptism? (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; I Corinthians 1:13).
20. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father (Ephesians 1:20), or Jesus (John 2:19-21), or the Spirit? (Romans 8:11).
21. If Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? (Luke 12:10).
22. If the Holy Ghost is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always speak of Him being sent from the Father or from Jesus? (John 14:26; 15:26).
23. Does the Father know something that the Holy Spirit does not know? If so, how can they be co-equal? Only the Father knows the day and hour of the Second Coming of Christ (Mark 13:32).
24. Did the trinity make the Old and New covenants? We know the LORD (Jehovah) did (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-13). If Jehovah is a trinity then Father, Son, and Spirit all had to die to make the new covenant effective (Hebrews 9:16-17).
25. If the Spirit proceeds from the Father, is the Spirit also a son of the Father? If not, why not?
26. If the Spirit proceeds from the Son, is the Spirit the grandson of the Father? If not, why not?
If, if , if... I'm sure you have many, many more. Don't you?
Ask yourself. Ask the All-Knower and All-Wise to help you answer these questions. Afterall, God is not the Author of confusion, is He? Ask Him how you can bet your soul, on something you don't have all the answers for.
Towards better understanding. Ameen
Since we have now understood the history of the trinity and the beliefs of early Christians, a lot of questions arise from it. It's important for one to understand the answers to these questions before having complete faith in the doctrine. Looking into the Bible, these questions may come to mind:
1. Did Jesus Christ have two fathers? The Father is the Father of the Son (I John 1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35). Which one is the true father? Some trinitarians say that the Holy Ghost was merely the Father's agent in conception - a process they compare to artificial insemination.
2. How many Spirits are there? God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24), the Lord Jesus is a Spirit (II Corinthians 3:17), and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit by definition. Yet there is one Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).
3. If Father and Son are co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the Father? (Matthew 11:25). May God pray to God?
4. Similarly, how can the Son not know as much as the Father? (Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32).
5. Similarly, how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? (John 5:19, 30; 6:38).
6. Similarly, what about other verses of Scripture indicating the inequality of the Son and the Father? (John 8:42; 14:28; I Corinthians 11:3).
7. Did "God the Son" die? The Bible says the Son died (Romans 5:10). If so, can God die? Can part of God die?
8. How can there be an eternal Son when the Bible speaks of the begotten Son, clearly indicating that the Son had a beginning? (John 3:16; Hebrews 1:5-6).
9. If the Son is eternal and existed at creation, who was His mother at that time? We know the Son was made of a woman (Galatians 4:4).
10. Did "God the Son" surrender His omnipresence while on earth? If so, how could he still be God?
11. If the Son is eternal and immutable (unchangeable), how can the reign of the Son have an ending? (I Corinthians 15:24-28).
12. If in answer to questions 3 through 11 we say only the human Son of God was limited in knowledge, was limited in power, and died, then how can we speak of "God the Son"? Are there two Sons?
13. Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father (John 4:21-24), yet Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts 7:59-60).
14. Can there be more than three persons in the Godhead? Certainly the Old Testament does not teach three but emphasizes oneness. If the New Testament adds to the Old Testament message and teaches three persons, then what is to prevent subsequent revelations of additional persons? If we apply trinitarian logic to interpret some verses of Scripture, we could teach a fourth person (Isaiah 48:16; Colossians 1:3; 2:2; I Thessalonians 3:11; James 1:27). Likewise, we could interpret some verses of Scripture to mean six more persons (Revelation 3:1; 5:6).
15. Are there three Spirits in a Christian's heart? Father, Jesus, and the Spirit all dwell within a Christian (John 14:17, 23; Romans 8:9; Ephesians 3:14-17). Yet there is one Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).
16. There is only one throne in heaven (Revelation 4:2). Who sits upon it? We know Jesus does (Revelation 1:8,18, 4:8). Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?
17. If Jesus is on the throne, how can He sit on the right hand of God? (Mark 16:19). Does He sit or stand on the right hand of God? (Acts 7:55). Or is He in the Father's bosom? (John 1:18).
18. Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus? Colossians 2:9 says the latter.
19. Given Matthew 28:19, why did the apostles consistently baptize both Jews and Gentiles using the name of Jesus, even to the extent of rebaptism? (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; I Corinthians 1:13).
20. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father (Ephesians 1:20), or Jesus (John 2:19-21), or the Spirit? (Romans 8:11).
21. If Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? (Luke 12:10).
22. If the Holy Ghost is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always speak of Him being sent from the Father or from Jesus? (John 14:26; 15:26).
23. Does the Father know something that the Holy Spirit does not know? If so, how can they be co-equal? Only the Father knows the day and hour of the Second Coming of Christ (Mark 13:32).
24. Did the trinity make the Old and New covenants? We know the LORD (Jehovah) did (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-13). If Jehovah is a trinity then Father, Son, and Spirit all had to die to make the new covenant effective (Hebrews 9:16-17).
25. If the Spirit proceeds from the Father, is the Spirit also a son of the Father? If not, why not?
26. If the Spirit proceeds from the Son, is the Spirit the grandson of the Father? If not, why not?
If, if , if... I'm sure you have many, many more. Don't you?
Ask yourself. Ask the All-Knower and All-Wise to help you answer these questions. Afterall, God is not the Author of confusion, is He? Ask Him how you can bet your soul, on something you don't have all the answers for.
Towards better understanding. Ameen