Did Jesus Predict Muhammad?

[talibilm]

To continue addressing the points you raised yesterday:


13. You claim that the NT was distorted. Please provide specific examples,dates ?? hew, places, and names. Please also provide the original text alongside the later distorted text, so that we can compare and see if changes were made.

Lol, No History can be PROVED since there is no eye witness now. Historians write the History by taking events from their own resources and conclude what the Event PROBABLY COULD BE. ( Talibilm's conclusion is better since he takes the resources from outside sources as well, not only islamic )

if you ask a Historian did a incident happened EXACTLY AT that particular date & time ?? No one could reply it since there is no eye witness who live now and even eye witness may make some mistakes of ASSUMPTION hew if you ask a greatest historian his views and other Historian views (dates, proofs ) are not the same . Like in the battle of -------- ive forgot the incident just during or after Crusades the History from the most Civilsed nation in Europe cannot exactly say how the hero of the Battle died ? they give three Scenarios.

But All we can declare is from the Noble Quran which even foretold about the saving of the body of Pharoah which even its first source THE OLD TESTAMENT utterly Missed it when the Pharoh's body was discovered in 1896 in a miraculously preserved form proves that the Noble Quran is from the Same Creator of Moses who saved Moses(who foretold coming of Jesus & Muhammad pbut) and his people and who saved the Pharaoh's body from the depth of the ocean's Sea Bed as he was in forefront leading his army when all other's at his back disappeared like a needle in the Red sea. A greatest unthinkable miracle ONLY THE ALL WISE NOBLE QURAN OWNS and not even the OT, its first source ;D

Only this POINT of 'date & time ' of Your's will take me many many pages to explain and there still plenty in the history of Prophets , Incidents, moral, laws etc but i will make it some of them mainly on the Main point of One God .(heard apologetics take the Muslim critics view like me and are planning to re-correct their books in their future , hope you are not studying for it when you ask all THESE numerous Q;s)

LIKE Changes made in the NT in the event of Satan's dispute with Allah on Adam's Creation.


NOBLE QURAN 2:30 '' Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." .....We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.


Noble Quran ''And the jinn We created before from scorching fire.''

Iblees the servant & Jinn was created from fire but was the head of the angels as also seen from the below verses of Hebrew.


We can say these following verses RELATE THE SAME STORY in the above verse of Noble Quran though you might not accept it. This the replacement of words from its real places as the Noble Quran exposes.



1) “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”?[b]

Also, God never said of any angel,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son.”[c]

6 And again, when God brings his Firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[d]

7 Indeed, when speaking of angels, he says,

“. . . who makes his angels winds
and his servants fiery flames”;





The fault or replacement abovein the Hebrews 1:7 is '' My son'' which is ''My Vicegerent or Calipha '' in our book and ''worship him'' is supposed to be ''Prostrate to him '' (out of respect ) as in the Noble quran

'' God's FIRSTBORN '' is obvious a contradiction too in Hebrews when it contradicts itself in EXODUS below

Exodus 4:22 (KJV)


22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn .

That will Make Jesus 3nd born after David who is also called the son. So 'My frstborn' as in above is an interpolation.


So first cannot be Two so both are mistakes but it ought to MAXIMUM be Only the SON ( Close to God like Vicegerent or Caliph in Arabic) and the Son being used as a figure of Speech.


2) Genesis 1:27[Full Chapter]
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Note : This does not mean God's own Image ( Bible says no Image for God ) but it rather Implies to the REAL OWN IMAGE OF ADAM's YOUTH not in form of baby or Toddler which every man human has to go through in stages .
Other verses of bible like God walking to Sarah and eating Hot cakes & fried calf meat and doing that to her are ridiculous when Compared to the enlightener Noble Quran when The True Creator need not Eat and giggle and walk to Sarah but Sends his order of Spirit to Sarah through his servant Angel above from the skies from his throne, the arsh as seen . Lot,


HOW MEANING CAN CHANGE IN TRANSLATION IN BIBLE
To find the exact meaning in modern English of those ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek terms, phrases, and sentences is very challenging. Sometimes the original words have no exact counterpart in English, so several English words may be required to reproduce the precise meaning. And English is constantly changing, as some of our words take on new meanings like the 4 letter filthy word F are used to mean which in not filthy anymore . For example, the word "gay" means something quite different today than it meant fifty years ago.

like in this funny video 'I am happy & Gay ' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5lX96qH4bQ

Just fifty years can make such difference so how about 2000 years ??


JESUS ATTENDED THE SYNOGOGUE, SO WHOM DID HE WORSHIP ?
In the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5–7), Jesus continually affirmed the authority of the Torah and the Prophets (Matthew 5:17) even in the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 5:19-20). He regularly attended synagogue (Luke 4:16), and His teaching was respected by the other Jews of His day (Luke 4:15). He taught in the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (Luke 21:37), and if He were not a Jew, His going into that part of the Temple would simply not have been allowed (Acts 21:28-30 )

So If Jesus's teachings were respected by those contemporary orthodox Jews why it was NOT respected later and Now when the Jews called the followers of Christians as Polytheists ??



Noble Quran 19:88-92 says


''They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!''


"Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!''


'At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin''

''That they should invoke a son for (Allah) THE Most Gracious.''

''For it is not consonant with THE Majesty of (Allah) ''
'
'THE Most Gracious that He should beget a son''





Noble Quran 3:66 ''Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have NO knowledge ??? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not.''


"I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god, [FONT=&quot]Who is like me?[/FONT] " (Isaiah 44:6-7. The bible)


So the rest in next inshallah.

14. Sura 5, which you quoted, goes on to say in verse 47 that Christians should judge Islam by the Gospel (the original Greek word for Gospel, “euangelion,” became “injil” in Arabic). The Quran takes it for granted that: (A) the Gospel was preserved until the time of Muhammad; (B) that the Gospel was still found among Christians; and (C) that the Gospel was still authoritative. Moreover, the sura implies that if the Quran disagrees with the Gospel, Christians should reject Islam. This is a valid principle, since if a prophet comes whose message disagrees with previous Divine revelation, that prophet should not be accepted.


15. Jesus spoke Aramaic, but who says He did not know Greek? Who said the apostle Paul determined the language of the NT? The apostle Paul only wrote part of the NT. Your conjectures and opinions do not constitute valid objections. Greek was widely known in the 1st century A.D., much like English is widely known today. Since the NT was written in Greek, it was accessible to more readers. The Gospel was not meant for only Aramaic speakers. The Gospel is meant for everyone. Even Jesus’s disciple, Peter the fisherman, knew Greek.


16. You say the Quran was written in the Quraishi dialect. But greenhill says in this thread that the the Hafs and the Warsh versions of the Quran represent dialectal differences. Which Quran version is the true Quran in the Quraishi dialect?


17. If we accept hadith 510 at face value, it shows that different versions of the Quran existed in Uthman’s time. But ask yourself—Was Uthman a prophet? Who says Uthman chose the right manuscripts? Being a fallible human, Uthman may have mistakenly burned good manuscripts and kept bad ones.


18. Besides, Uthman’s Quran was not universally accepted by Muslims. Abdullah ibn Masud called it a deception: “The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur’an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him [i.e. Muhammad] whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit” (Ibn Sa’d, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p. 444).


19. Ubayy ibn Ka’b also disagreed with Uthman’s Quran. Sahih al-Bukhari 500: Umar said, “Ubayy was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an), yet we leave some of what he recites.” Ubayy says, “I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Messenger and will not leave it for anything whatever.”


20. Before Uthman, even Muslim sources say that parts of the Quran were lost:
Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif: “Many (of the passages) of the Qur’an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama . . . but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur’an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them.”


21. Muhammad’s companion Abu Musa reported that two surahs of the Quran had been forgotten. Sahih Muslim 2286: Abu Musa al-Ash’ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur’an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara’at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: “If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust.” And we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it…


22. In addition, a sheep ate part of the original Quran, and so this part was lost too:
Sunan ibn Majah 1944: “It was narrated that Aishah said: ‘The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.’” (Hasan)


For context regarding the breastfeeding of adults and the verses’ initial inclusion in the Quran, see Sahih Muslim 3597 & 3598: “It was narrated that Aishah said: ‘Among the things that were revealed of the Quran was that ten definite breastfeeding make a person a Mahram, then that was abrogated and replaced with five definite breastfeedings, and the Messenger of Allah passed away when this was among the things that were recited of the Quran.’” And, “It was narrated from Amrah that she heard Aishah say when she was mentioning what kind of breastfeeding makes a person a Mahram—Ten definite breastfeedings were revealed in the Quran, then five definite breastfeeding were revealed too.” And Sahih Muslim 3600: “It was narrated that Aishah said: ’Sahlah bint Suhail came to the prophet and said: O Messenger of Allah, I see (signs of displeasure) on the face of Abu Hudhaifah when Salim—who was his ally—comes in. The Prophet said: “Breastfeed him.” She said: “How can I breastfeed him? He is a grown man.” The Messenger of Allah smiled and said: “I known that he is a grown man.”’”


Note these verses were said to be “revealed in the Quran,” and yet they are missing from all Qurans today.

23. Finally, Quranic manuscript scholar Tayyar Altıkulaç says of the earliest manuscripts (mushaf): “There are small differences in spelling that do not affect the basic essence, but there is nothing at all affecting the essence.” (The original Turkish is just as redundant: Küçük, basit esasıyla ilgisi olmayan imla farklılıkları var ama esası ilgilendiren hiçbir şey yok.) Altıkulaç was trying to put a positive spin on his research, but he is essentially admitting that the ancient Quranic manuscripts that he knows of do not agree perfectly with today’s Qurans. (The original article in Turkish is here: http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/kuran-i-kerimin-degismedigi-ispatlandi-mi-1013554/ )

 

[dwa2day]

A Biblical Portal Between Christianity and Islam

There is no better ................................God. I do not have space in this article to explore the many Qur’anic verses directly addressed to Christians, but if we were to receive them our religion would be transformed for the better and would come into balance with Judaism and Islam.
- Shabnam Mayet

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ian-mevorach/did-jesus-predict-muhammad_b_9762934.html

Now that would make Satan shake turn cold in fear and kill hells fires. Actually the contemplation of this brings tears of joy to my eyes.

 

[dwa2day]

Wow what a lesson. Thank you. I have just started exploring Islam, never expected this divergence in Islam.

Look forward to the next installment.


Regards
Doug

 

[Abz2000]

Would like to add some info on 14, 15 and 22 by goodwill
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...predict-muhammad-post2926005.html#post2926005
it seems that some prefer to argue in bad faith than to come together upon the truth..indicates volumes as regards motive. Real believers in Allah who accepted the signs and messengers of Allah and did their best to obey Allah will be united in paradise.

Bear in mind that these are not answers, just info:

In point 14, you implied that since it is atated in the Quran:
وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ الإِنجِيلِ بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فِيهِ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ {47
005:047 Khan
:
Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fasiqun (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allah.


it might mean that Allah is saying that the books remain in pristine condition.
However the fact that they have been edited is clarified in Chapter 2 of the Quran, here:

فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَـذَا مِنْ عِندِ اللّهِ لِيَشْتَرُواْ بِهِ ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُمْ مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ {79
002:079 Khan
:
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby.

You may already know of the biblical curses condemning the corrupt scribes and pharisees.

It appears that Allah, by telling them to judge by what Allah has reavealed therein will come to the truth anyway, this can be seen in the fact that once Allah sent the Prophet pbuh, He made him an automatic reference point just as they had previously with Jesus, though they had the book before them they would come to him for judgement, and even though some of them falsely claimed to disbelieve in what he had been sent with, they would still have to come to him ultimately (though some of them tried to get concessions via deception and false symmetrical hacks (ancient babylonian sorcey), this can be seen again in the following verse:


وَكَيْفَ يُحَكِّمُونَكَ وَعِندَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللّهِ ثُمَّ يَتَوَلَّوْنَ مِن بَعْدِ ذَلِكَ وَمَا أُوْلَـئِكَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ {43
005:043
:
But how do they come to you for decision while they have the Taurat (Torah), in which is the decision of Allah; yet even after that, they turn away. For they are not (really) believers.


Notice that a question is posed requiring them to probe their own minds.
For if they accept the guidance of those books they would come to the truth anyway, and if they believed in them sincerely, they would try to adhere to them completely, then they would end up upgrading to Islam anyway since they would see the truth and more fitting guidance.

For those who reject what they don't like of the previous scriptures, Allah asks them: is it that you believe in a part if the book and reject a part?
If it's all true and no additions have been made, you may ask yourself why nobody has implemented it since just before the advent of Muhammad pbuh despite there being no political constraint.

Allah sent the new law when people needed it.
The tribal experiment was over and people were beginning to mingle more.
He wasn't making their faith vain, but rather upgrading and completing it.

In point 15, you memtioned greek, although most of us know that Aramaic was the spoken language, greek appears to have only become a big factor after the dawah was spread to the region, the initial target audience were the jews, as can be seen from the crumbs under table statement.
Not that there's much to argue about.


Regarding point 22 on the issue of suckling, the five and ten feeds thing appears to be about babies who were within the age of suckling, that a one off or so feed doesn't make a person a foster child.



Regarding the suckling of salim the ex-adopted son and later slave, there is much confusion and Allah knows best, but the older and more mature mothers of the believers appear to have taken Aishah (ra)'s claim at face value but stated that it would have been a one off for salim, and that it was unacceptable for them.
I cannot find any reports that indicate that the Prophet pbuh had made that concession for anybody else.



Ibn Abu Mulaika reported that al-Qasim b. Muhammad b. Abu Bakr had narrated to him
that 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail b. 'Amr came to Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) and said:
Messenger of Allah, Salim (the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa) is living with us in our house, and he has attained (puberty) as men attain it and has acquired knowledge (of the sex problems) as men acquire, whereupon he said: Suckle him so that he may become unlawful (in regard to marriage) for you He (Ibn Abu Mulaika) said: I refrained from (narrating this hadith) for a year or so on account of fear. I then met al-Qasim and said to him: You narrated to me a hadith which I did not narrate (to anyone) afterwards. He said: What is that? I informed him, whereupon he said: Narrate it on my authority that 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) had narrated that to me.

وَحَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ رَافِعٍ، - وَاللَّفْظُ لاِبْنِ رَافِعٍ - قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ، أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ جُرَيْجٍ، أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ، أَنَّ الْقَاسِمَ بْنَ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ، أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّ عَائِشَةَ أَخْبَرَتْهُ أَنَّ سَهْلَةَ بِنْتَ سُهَيْلِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو جَاءَتِ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَتْ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنَّ سَالِمًا - لِسَالِمٍ مَوْلَى أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ - مَعَنَا فِي بَيْتِنَا وَقَدْ بَلَغَ مَا يَبْلُغُ الرِّجَالُ وَعَلِمَ مَا يَعْلَمُ الرِّجَالُ ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏ "‏ أَرْضِعِيهِ تَحْرُمِي عَلَيْهِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَمَكَثْتُ سَنَةً أَوْ قَرِيبًا مِنْهَا لاَ أُحَدِّثُ بِهِ وَهِبْتُهُ ثُمَّ لَقِيتُ الْقَاسِمَ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ لَقَدْ حَدَّثْتَنِي حَدِيثًا مَا حَدَّثْتُهُ بَعْدُ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَمَا هُوَ فَأَخْبَرْتُهُ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَحَدِّثْهُ عَنِّي أَنَّ عَائِشَةَ أَخْبَرَتْنِيهِ ‏.‏
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1453 c
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 35
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3426
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Umm Salama said to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her):
A young boy who is at the threshold of puberty comes to you. I, however, do not like that he should come to me, whereupon 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) said: Don't you see in Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) a model for you? She also said: The wife of Abu Hudhaifa said: Messenger of Allah, Salim comes to me and now he is a (grown-up) person, and there is something that (rankles) in the mind of Abu Hudhaifa about him, whereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: Suckle him (so that he may become your foster-child), and thus he may be able to come to you (freely).

وَحَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ، عَنْ حُمَيْدِ بْنِ نَافِعٍ، عَنْ زَيْنَبَ بِنْتِ أُمِّ سَلَمَةَ، قَالَتْ قَالَتْ أُمُّ سَلَمَةَ لِعَائِشَةَ إِنَّهُ يَدْخُلُ عَلَيْكِ الْغُلاَمُ الأَيْفَعُ الَّذِي مَا أُحِبُّ أَنْ يَدْخُلَ عَلَىَّ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَقَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ أَمَا لَكِ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أُسْوَةٌ قَالَتْ إِنَّ امْرَأَةَ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ قَالَتْ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنَّ سَالِمًا يَدْخُلُ عَلَىَّ وَهُوَ رَجُلٌ وَفِي نَفْسِ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ مِنْهُ شَىْءٌ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ أَرْضِعِيهِ حَتَّى يَدْخُلَ عَلَيْكِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1453 d
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 36
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3427
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Zainab daughter of Abu Salama reported:
I heard Umm Salama, the wife of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon himy, saying to 'A'isha: By Allah, I do not like to be seen by a young boy who has passed the period of fosterage, whereupon she ('A'isha) said: Why is it so? Sahla daughter of Suhail came to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and said: Allah's Messenger, I swear by Allah that I see in the face of Abu Hudhaifa (the signs of disgust) on account of entering of Salim (in the house), whereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: Suckle him. She (Sahla bint Suhail) said: He has a heard. But he (again) said: Suckle him, and it would remove what is there (expression of disgust) on the face of Abu Hudhaifa. She said: (I did that) and, by Allah, I did not see (any sign of disgust) on the face of Abu Hudhaifa.

وَحَدَّثَنِي أَبُو الطَّاهِرِ، وَهَارُونُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ الأَيْلِيُّ، - وَاللَّفْظُ لِهَارُونَ - قَالاَ حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ وَهْبٍ، أَخْبَرَنِي مَخْرَمَةُ بْنُ بُكَيْرٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ حُمَيْدَ بْنَ نَافِعٍ، يَقُولُ سَمِعْتُ زَيْنَبَ، بِنْتَ أَبِي سَلَمَةَ تَقُولُ سَمِعْتُ أُمَّ سَلَمَةَ، زَوْجَ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم تَقُولُ لِعَائِشَةَ وَاللَّهِ مَا تَطِيبُ نَفْسِي أَنْ يَرَانِي الْغُلاَمُ قَدِ اسْتَغْنَى عَنِ الرَّضَاعَةِ ‏.‏ فَقَالَتْ لِمَ قَدْ جَاءَتْ سَهْلَةُ بِنْتُ سُهَيْلٍ إِلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَتْ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهِ إِنِّي لأَرَى فِي وَجْهِ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ مِنْ دُخُولِ سَالِمٍ ‏.‏ قَالَتْ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ أَرْضِعِيهِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالَتْ إِنَّهُ ذُو لِحْيَةٍ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ أَرْضِعِيهِ يَذْهَبْ مَا فِي وَجْهِ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالَتْ وَاللَّهِ مَا عَرَفْتُهُ فِي وَجْهِ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ ‏.‏
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1453 e
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 37
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3428
(deprecated numbering scheme)

Umm Salama, the wife of Allah's Apostle (ﷺ), used to say that all wives of Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) disclaimed the idea that one with this type of fosterage (having been suckled after the proper period) should come to them. and said to 'A'isha:
By Allah, we do not find this but a sort of concession given by Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) only for Salim, and no one was going to be allowed to enter (our houses) with this type of fosterage and we do not subscribe to this view.

حَدَّثَنِي عَبْدُ الْمَلِكِ بْنُ شُعَيْبِ بْنِ اللَّيْثِ، حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي، عَنْ جَدِّي، حَدَّثَنِي عُقَيْلُ بْنُ، خَالِدٍ عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، أَنَّهُ قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ زَمْعَةَ، أَنَّ أُمَّهُ، زَيْنَبَ بِنْتَ أَبِي سَلَمَةَ أَخْبَرَتْهُ أَنَّ أُمَّهَا أُمَّ سَلَمَةَ زَوْجَ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَانَتْ تَقُولُ أَبَى سَائِرُ أَزْوَاجِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنْ يُدْخِلْنَ عَلَيْهِنَّ أَحَدًا بِتِلْكَ الرَّضَاعَةِ وَقُلْنَ لِعَائِشَةَ وَاللَّهِ مَا نَرَى هَذَا إِلاَّ رُخْصَةً أَرْخَصَهَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم لِسَالِمٍ خَاصَّةً فَمَا هُوَ بِدَاخِلٍ عَلَيْنَا أَحَدٌ بِهَذِهِ الرَّضَاعَةِ وَلاَ رَائِينَا.
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1454
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 38
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3429
(deprecated numbering scheme)
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'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) visited me when a man was sitting near me, and he seemed to disapprove of that. And I saw signs of anger on his face and I said: Messenger of Allah, he is my brother by forsterage, whereupon he said: Consider who your brothers are because of fosterage since fosterage is through hunger (i. e. in infancy).


حَدَّثَنَا هَنَّادُ بْنُ السَّرِيِّ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الأَحْوَصِ، عَنْ أَشْعَثَ بْنِ أَبِي الشَّعْثَاءِ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ مَسْرُوقٍ، قَالَ قَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ دَخَلَ عَلَىَّ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَعِنْدِي رَجُلٌ قَاعِدٌ فَاشْتَدَّ ذَلِكَ عَلَيْهِ وَرَأَيْتُ الْغَضَبَ فِي وَجْهِهِ قَالَتْ فَقُلْتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنَّهُ أَخِي مِنَ الرَّضَاعَةِ ‏.‏ قَالَتْ فَقَالَ ‏ "‏ انْظُرْنَ إِخْوَتَكُنَّ مِنَ الرَّضَاعَةِ فَإِنَّمَا الرَّضَاعَةُ مِنَ الْمَجَاعَةِ‏".
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1455 a
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 39
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3430
(deprecated numbering scheme)
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http://sunnah.com/muslim/17



The narration goes as;
عن عائشة قالت لقد نزلت آية الرجم ورضاعة الكبير عشرا ولقد كان في صحيفة تحت سريري فلما مات رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وتشاغلنا بموته دخل داجن فأكلها
Reported 'Aisha (RA): ‘the verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times was revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) expired and we were occupied by his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.’ (Sunan Ibn Majah, Hadith 1944)
1- Authenticity of the narration:
Whenever we have a narration we ought to see whether it is authentic or not? The narration infact has some problems.
The particular chain given in Sunan Ibn Majah finds one of the narrators Muhammad bin Ishaq narrating it using the word عن ('an) which is rather an ambiguous way of narration and renders the narration weak when used by a narrator known for practicing Tadlis [practice of subtly missing a link] and Muhammad Ibn Ishaq is indeed such a narrator. Thus through particular chain of narration in Sunan Ibn Majah the narration is weak and unauthentic due the above mentioned defect though it has other issues as well as mentioned in the lines to follow. This is clarified by Shaykh Muhammad Taqi Usmani in Takmala Fath Al-Mulhim 1/69 pub. Darul Ahya Al-Turath Al-Arabi, Beirut.
In Musnad Ahmad the same narration is given through the same chain but with an explicit way of narration i.e. it does not have the defect like the narration in Ibn Majah’s collection. But the narration is exposed to more criticism because many other narrators have related from 'Aisha (RA) about the suckling/breastfeeding but no one has narrated the words found in this chain even though the narrators in those cases are more reliable and consistent than Muhammad bin Ishaq. And due to thefact of these words being narrated solely by him and in defiance to other much more reliable narrators, scholars have questioned its authenticity. Shaykh Shu’aib Arnaud has classified it as Da’if in his classification of Musnad Ahmad. See Musnad Ahmad 6/269 Hadith 26359.
2- The narration no way questions Qur’an infallibility:

1- One of the two allegedly lost verses as per this narration was about stoning i.e. punishment of married adulterers. But other narrations prove that a commandment was revealed about stoning but the Holy Prophet (PBUH) did not allow it to be written as a part of the Qur’an implying that it was not meant to be Qur’an integral part. Following narrations testify to this;
a-It is reported in a narration from Kathir bin Salt that: Zaid (b. Thabit) said: 'I heard the Messenger of Allah say, 'When a married man or woman commit adultery stone them both (to death)', (hearing this) Amr said,
فقال عمرو : لما نزلت أتيت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقلت : أكتبها ؟ فكأنه كره ذلك

'When this was revealed I came to Prophet and asked if I could write it, he (the Prophet) disliked it.' (Mustadrik Al-Hakim, Hadith 8184. Hakim called it Sahih)
b- About this 'verse' Kathir bin Salt says that he, Zaid bin Thabit and Marwan bin Hakam were discussing as to why it is not written in the Quranic manuscript and Umar bin Khattab was present with them and listening to their discussion he said he knew it better then them and told them that he came to Messenger of Allah and said:
يا رسول الله أكتبني آية الرجم قال فأتيته فذكرته قال فذكر آية الرجم قال فقال يا رسول الله أكتبني آية الرجم قال لا استطيع ذاك
"'O Messenger of Allah, let the verse about stoning be written for me.' He (the Prophet) said, 'I can't do this.'" (Sunan Al-Kubra Baihiqi 8/211 & Sunan Al-Kubra Nasai Hadith 7148. Albani (in Sahiha 6/412) said Baihiqi pointed to its authenticity)
Had it meant to be a part of the Qur’an why would Holy Prophet (PBUH) dislike its being written and who could stop him from doing it?
2- The second allegedly lost verse was about suckling of an adult ten times buut in this case too we have other narrations which categorically say that the verse was abrogated. And interestingly those narrations come through 'Aisha (RA) only. In Sahih Muslim we read;

عَنْ عَائِشَةَ أَنَّهَا قَالَتْ كَانَ فِيمَا أُنْزِلَ مِنْ الْقُرْآنِ عَشْرُ رَضَعَاتٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ يُحَرِّمْنَ ثُمَّ نُسِخْنَ بِخَمْسٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ فَتُوُفِّيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَهُنَّ فِيمَا يُقْرَأُ مِنْ الْقُرْآنِ

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings ... (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 2634)

This narration explicitly says that verse about ten sucklings was abrogated, one could wonder how it could have been under her pillow after the completion of revelation.

Having known that neither of them was meant to be part of the Qur’an; even if we accept the narration in question we will have to say that perhaps 'Aisha (RA) had kept them with her as a historical record and nothing more.


Also the claim of stoning being a Quranic verse and not a statement of the Prophet pbuh is to be looked at:

Ibn Majah
Hadith no: 2553
Narrated / Authority Of: Ibn Abbas
that Umar bin Khattab said: "I fear that after a long time has passed, some will say: 'I do not find (the sentence of) stoning in the Book of Allah (saw),' and they will go astray by abandoning one of the obligations enjoined by Allah (SWT). Rather stoning is a must if a man is married (or previously married) and proof is established, or if pregnancy results or if he admits it. I have read it (in the Quran). "And if an old man and an old woman commit adultery, stone them both." The Messenger of Allah (saw) stoned (adulterers) and we stoned (them) after him.' " Sahih

It appears here that it is a previous sunnah revived by the Prophet pbuh which sheds light on why he wouldn't allow it to be written down:

Ibn Majah
Hadith no: 2558
Narrated / Authority Of: Bara bin Azib
"The Messenger of Allah (saw) passed by a Jew with a blackened face who had been flogged. He called them and said: 'Is this the punishment for the adulterer that you find in your Book?' They said: 'Yes.' Then he called one of their scholars and said: 'I adjure you by Allah (SWT) Who sent down the Tawrah (Torah) to Musa! Is this the punishment for the adulterer that you find in your Book?' He said: 'No; if you had not adjured me by Allah (SWT), I would not have told you. The punishment for the adulterer that we find in our Book is stoning, but many of our nobles were being stoned (because of the prevalence of adultery among them), so if we caught one of our nobles (committing adultery), we would let him go; but if we caught one of the weak among us, we would carry out the punishment on him. We said: "Come, let us agree upon something that we may impose on both noble and weak alike." So we agreed to blacken the face and whip them, instead of stoning.' The Prophet (saw) said: 'O Allah (SWT), I am the first of those who revive your command which they had killed off,' and he issued orders that (the man) be stoned." Sahih





There does appear to be much confusion with this stoning and suckling and goat eating thing and Allah knows best, it may possible have been built up on the confusion caused during the accusations..
..

My sickness was aggravated, and when I returned home, Allah's Apostle came to me, and after greeting he said, 'How is that (girl)?' I requested him to allow me to go to my parents. I wanted then to be sure of the news through them I Allah's Apostle allowed me, and I went to my parents and asked my mother, 'What are the people talking about?' She said, 'O my daughter! Don't worry much about this matter. By Allah, never is there a charming woman loved by her husband who has other wives, but the women would forge false news about her.' I said, 'Glorified be Allah! Are the people really taking of this matter?' That night I kept on weeping and could not sleep till morning. In the morning Allah's Apostle called Ali bin Abu Talib and Usama bin Zaid when he saw the Divine Inspiration delayed, to consul them about divorcing his wife (i.e. 'Aisha). Usama bin Zaid said what he knew of the good reputation of his wives and added, 'O Allah's Apostle! Keep you wife, for, by Allah, we know nothing about her but good.' 'Ali bin Abu Talib said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Allah has no imposed restrictions on you, and there are many women other than she, yet you may ask the woman-servant who will tell you the truth.' On that Allah's Apostle called Buraira and said, 'O Burair. Did you ever see anything which roused your suspicions about her?' Buraira said, 'No, by Allah Who has sent you with the Truth, I have never seen in her anything faulty except that she is a girl of immature age, who sometimes sleeps and leaves the dough for the goats to eat.' On that day Allah's Apostle ascended the pulpit and requested that somebody support him in punishing 'Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul. Allah's Apostle said, 'Who will support me to punish that person ('Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul) who has hurt me by slandering the reputation of my family? By Allah, I know nothing about my family but good, and they have accused a person about whom I know nothing except good, and he never entered my house except in my company.'

Sad bin Mu'adh got up and said, 'O Allah's Apostle! by Allah, I will relieve you from him. If that man is from the tribe of the Aus, then we will chop his head off, and if he is from our brothers, the Khazraj, then order us, and we will fulfill your order.' On that Sad bin 'Ubada, the chief of the Khazraj and before this incident, he had been a pious man, got up, motivated by his zeal for his tribe and said, 'By Allah, you have told a lie; you cannot kill him, and you will never be able to kill him.' On that Usaid bin Al-Hadir got up and said (to Sad bin 'Ubada), 'By Allah! you are a liar. By Allah, we will kill him; and you are a hypocrite, defending the hypocrites.' On this the two tribes of Aus and Khazraj got excited and were about to fight each other, while Allah's Apostle was standing on the pulpit. He got down and quietened them till they became silent and he kept quiet. On that day I kept on weeping so much so that neither did my tears stop, nor could I sleep......


http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/bukhari/bh3/bh3_828.htm

 

[dwa2day]

Hi Talibilm.
I have been following this thread and mind the discussion most informative. I am realy intrested in the your claim regarding the NT contradictions.

there are 110,000 contradictions in the NT and am tired of teaching this to Christians who keep arguing , …….
Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know."
John 5:30 '' I can’t do anything by myself.''

Goodwill ask you

13. You claim that the NT was distorted. Please provide specific examples, dates, places, and names. Please also provide the original text alongside the later distorted text, so that we can compare and see if changes were made.

Your reply to this is

Lol, No History can be PROVED since there is no eye witness now.

This total avoids your claim that there are 110,000 contradictions. You state you have these contradictions in detail and are tired of teaching them. Yet fail to offer a reference to your source. However later on you suddenly have certain referances.

Exodus 4:22 (KJV)
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn .

With a reference one has the opertunity to confirm your claim with in your argument. As with Exodus 4:22 you have quoted it correctly.
However with reference to your 110,000 contradictions it is clear you have fabricated and changed and or omitted words to make a point that is untrue. For example your first contradiction is Act 2:22 noted above and again here.

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know."

You even highlighted your deceit. I have referenced for you four different translation for you, all have through Him as part of the text.
[SUP]Acts 2:22 KJV 22 [/SUP]“O men of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus of Nazareth by doing tremendous miracles through him, as you well know.
[SUP]Acts 2:22 NKJV [/SUP]“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—
[SUP]Acts 2:22 NIV [/SUP]‘Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
[SUP]Acts2:22 TLB [/SUP]“O men of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus of Nazareth by doing tremendous miracles through him, as you well know.


So what is my point.
I started exploring this site a few days ago, my aim to learn about Islam as my understanding is it is a rich solid faith. However you are the second person who openly has changed text to make an unfounded case for Islam. So here is my question to you.
Is Islam based of a principle of truth or deceit? If truth why is it an accept practise to openly deceive others?
Regards
Doug

 

[dwa2day]

Would like to add some info on 14, 15 and 22 by goodwill
..............................

Your explanation is detailed and informative, however is miss the fact and based on the evidence presented the Quran has been changed, there are different versions in circulation today, historic leaders of the Islamic community have known this. A therefore does not support the Islamic claim the Quran is the unchanged words of Allah as claimed.

 

[talibilm]

Hi Talibilm.
I have been following this thread and mind the discussion most informative. I am realy intrested in the your claim regarding the NT contradictions.

Goodwill ask you

Your reply to this is


This total avoids your claim that there are 110,000 contradictions. You state you have these contradictions in detail and are tired of teaching them. Yet fail to offer a reference to your source. However later on you suddenly have certain referances.

With a reference one has the opertunity to confirm your claim with in your argument. As with Exodus 4:22 you have quoted it correctly.
However with reference to your 110,000 contradictions it is clear you have fabricated and changed and or omitted words to make a point that is untrue. For example your first contradiction is Act 2:22 noted above and again here.


You even highlighted your deceit. I have referenced for you four different translation for you, all have through Him as part of the text.
[SUP]Acts 2:22 KJV 22 [/SUP]“O men of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus of Nazareth by doing tremendous miracles through him, as you well know.
[SUP]Acts 2:22 NKJV [/SUP]“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—
[SUP]Acts 2:22 NIV [/SUP]‘Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
[SUP]Acts2:22 TLB [/SUP]“O men of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus of Nazareth by doing tremendous miracles through him, as you well know.


So what is my point.
I started exploring this site a few days ago, my aim to learn about Islam as my understanding is it is a rich solid faith. However you are the second person who openly has changed text to make an unfounded case for Islam. So here is my question to you.
Is Islam based of a principle of truth or deceit? If truth why is it an accept practise to openly deceive others?
Regards
Doug

Hi Doug ,It appears you jump into conclusion in hurry since you had already judged some one (like me ) before you write
I've taken from my files where i had stored in my file with other Acts verses LONG AGO , but the version is not noted with it OR It might be I 've taken from a website . so let me FIRST paste my quote

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know."

So It ALL THE SAME LIKE YOUR OTHER QUOTES ABOVE & BELOW


[SUP]Acts 2:22 KJV 22 [/SUP]“O men of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus of Nazareth by doing tremendous miracles through him, as you well know.
[SUP]Acts 2:22 NKJV [/SUP]“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—
[SUP]Acts 2:22 NIV [/SUP]‘Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
[SUP]Acts2:22 TLB [/SUP]“O men of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus of Nazareth by doing tremendous miracles through him, as you well know.


Lol, SO WHERE IS THE DECEIT ??? BUT I WILL FORGIVE YOU FOR YOUR SLIP OF WORDS SINCE ALL PROPHETS TOLD ME TO DO THAT.

ABOUT 110,000 CONTRADICTIONS , I GET THIS FROM candyapple of the ummah .com who is an EXPERT in debates with so many Apologetics Like Arbed, Causative, aj4u etc etc who NEVER EVER refused or refuted that claim when argued with them & you are the first to raise . Frankly I do not have time Or wished to see into those LONG LIST of 110,000 contradictions ;D nor I am interested to finds those lengthy lists of faults but am arguing only on those which i see it clearly by my conscience MAINLY MY INTEREST ON THE ISSUE OF ONE INCOMPARABLE GOD, THE CREATOR.

I was not free enough to answer you or Goodwills LENGTHY LIST since i had already answered goodwill's lengthy lists IN A SHORT ANSWER though Inshallah I will answer other Q's of goodwill later which you may also find in Ummah .com '' Misquoted Noble Quran verses by Apologetics '' thread

So i will answer other questions IF Am FREE ENOUGH WITH A MOOD FOR IT since they are nothing new except the 26 versions Quran question which I already replied to Muslim writers here, can check from my todays or yesterdays posts.

 

[dwa2day]

Hi Doug ,It appears you jump into conclusion in hurry since you had already judged some one (like me ) before you write ………………………….

Hi Taliblm
Please know it is not my intention to Judge or my right, I simply have presented the argument and offered you the opportunity to respond. I thank you for that.
And by correcting your miss quoted passage as you have it clears up the claim and stated contradiction. John 5:30 '' I can’t do anything by myself.''
When you find the time please do this on the other 109,999 contradictions so boldly claim to have in your possession and I am sure you will find your claim to dwindle to ZERO.
Regards
Doug

 

[dwa2day]

Hi Doug ,It appears you jump into conclusion in hurry since you had already judged some one (like me ) before you write ………………………….

Hi Taliblm
Please know it is not my intention to Judge or my right, I simply have presented the argument and offered you the opportunity to respond. I thank you for that.
And by correcting your miss quoted passage as you have it clears up the claim and stated contradiction. John 5:30 '' I can’t do anything by myself.''
When you find the time please do this on the other 109,999 contradictions so boldly claim to have in your possession and I am sure you will find your claim to dwindle to ZERO.
Regards
Doug

 

[Abz2000]

Your explanation is detailed and informative, however is miss the fact and based on the evidence presented the Quran has been changed, there are different versions in circulation today, historic leaders of the Islamic community have known this. A therefore does not support the Islamic claim the Quran is the unchanged words of Allah as claimed.

Would you prefer that i argue based on blind defensiveness, or out of the fear that others may doubt Islam? That's for them to decide after studying the facts. Since claims have been made, i would like to see the parchments of san'a myself and am dismayed at the fact that they have been hidden from the world, it is essential that people can make an objective study.
I want to pass on the truth to my children, not to follow the path of the nations before us who hid the truth they knew out of haughtiness to defend their previous position.
I am seriously not about to get into a useless argument, i want to know the facts.

 

[dwa2day]

Would you prefer that i argue based on blind defensiveness, or out of the fear that others may doubt Islam? That's for them to decide after studying the facts. Since claims have been made, i would like to see the parchments of san'a myself and am dismayed at the fact that they have been hidden from the world, it is essential that people can make an objective study.
I want to pass on the truth to my children, not to follow the path of the nations before us who hid the truth they knew out of haughtiness to defend their previous position.
I am seriously not about to get into a useless argument, i want to know the facts.

Hi Abz200
Wow, a man after my own heart. What goodwill has written opens up hours of studying to come to one’s own conclusion? What you say is what I have been taught, search the scriptures to find the truth and by this you (I) will find my own salvation, although the road may be painful and long.
In light of what you said, would you agree that there should be agreement in the approach or methodology of a comparative study? If so what would you suggest?
Regards
Doug

 

[Abz2000]

Hi Abz200
Wow, a man after my own heart. What goodwill has written opens up hours of studying to come to one’s own conclusion? What you say is what I have been taught, search the scriptures to find the truth and by this you (I) will find my own salvation, although the road may be painful and long.
In light of what you said, would you agree that there should be agreement in the approach or methodology of a comparative study? If so what would you suggest?
Regards
Doug

Every scholar and intellectual has a differing approah to study, some seek to confirm what they know to be true, others fear for "national security" and fear what people might think, some will,just seek to find the truth, others will be highly critical and suspicious, i believe we need to let them all study it and present their opinions and findings whilst seeking to be truthful and objective.
Interesting to note that the differences of opinion on mushadf (scripture) by Abdullah ibn Mas'ud and Ubayy ibn Ka'b are usually found as rebuttals to critics, now i have noticed that some of those critics had zero scholarly intention and complete belligerent intention with desire to mudsling by which they harm themselves, howeverr, they did source and collect the ahadith and historical observations supporting their claims and the rebutting scholars also critiqued the sources and clarified much - although i did notice a tendency with some to avoid unorthodox/politically incorrect thinking and avoid division on what is available. For me it was a wonderful study theatre

Allahu Akbar, i certainly believe that there should be a central khilaafah authority on the path of Prophethood who should have had the texts photographed immediately and made them available for study on the net.
The fact that the yemeni government first handed them over to a museum in a country known for corruption, then paid a german team to preserve and catalogue them, that many of them disappeared and ended up on the blackmarket, then funds ran out before they could be catalogued is highly suspect and actually criminal.

Reading the Quran itself tells me that there are parts missing, studying the seerah and biographies of the khulafa tells me that there is a human aspect to collection and preservation of the texts, and having spent hours debating bible students who told me that it i must beware of questioning anything despite being shown the obvious tells me that i don't want to be naive in my conclusions but that i want to be truthful and open to new knowledge, especially after all those debates i've seen on evolution - some that i've participated in myself - only to find out after further study and deep thought that there was more to the story than i had grown up believing.
It's easy to unite on the truth when we are all truthful, sincere, objective and passionate in coming to the bottom of a story and passing facts on to our children, it knocks a lot of people's faith in Allah when they grow up and find that santa isn't real, especially with the corrupt secularists actively trying to pervert and corrupt them, there are also others who began to doubt Allah's existence as they came face to face with the facts of evolution, especially given that they grew up being told that it was a lie - the reason being that their ancestors had come to the conclusion that the Quran rejected the idea (which is very far from the truth).
Like when my brother told me how kids are conceived and i was shocked, i asked him if he thoufht mom and dad really did that, he was like, yes. I asked him if he thought the prophets had done it and he was like, yes. I accused him of sin and slander lol. When i went straight to my mom and asked her how kids are born, she told me that they just appear, i asked why not before marriage, she told me that God makes them appear after marriage.
Well, now i know that i was too young for my brother's story and too old for my mom's story, and i know that Allah is wise when He explains things in a subtle manner and lets humans reach maturity before they figure out the facts

 

[goodwill]

Lol, No History can be PROVED since there is no eye witness now. Historians write the History by taking events from their own resources and conclude what the Event PROBABLY COULD BE. ( Talibilm's conclusion is better since he takes the resources from outside sources as well, not only islamic )

if you ask a Historian did a incident happened EXACTLY AT that particular date & time ?? No one could reply it since there is no eye witness who live now and even eye witness may make some mistakes of ASSUMPTION hew if you ask a greatest historian his views and other Historian views (dates, proofs ) are not the same . Like in the battle of -------- ive forgot the incident just during or after Crusades the History from the most Civilsed nation in Europe cannot exactly say how the hero of the Battle died ? they give three Scenarios.

But All we can declare is from the Noble Quran which even foretold about the saving of the body of Pharoah which even its first source THE OLD TESTAMENT utterly Missed it when the Pharoh's body was discovered in 1896 in a miraculously preserved form proves that the Noble Quran is from the Same Creator of Moses who saved Moses(who foretold coming of Jesus & Muhammad pbut) and his people and who saved the Pharaoh's body from the depth of the ocean's Sea Bed as he was in forefront leading his army when all other's at his back disappeared like a needle in the Red sea. A greatest unthinkable miracle ONLY THE ALL WISE NOBLE QURAN OWNS and not even the OT, its first source ;D

Only this POINT of 'date & time ' of Your's will take me many many pages to explain and there still plenty in the history of Prophets , Incidents, moral, laws etc but i will make it some of them mainly on the Main point of One God .(heard apologetics take the Muslim critics view like me and are planning to re-correct their books in their future , hope you are not studying for it when you ask all THESE numerous Q;s)

LIKE Changes made in the NT in the event of Satan's dispute with Allah on Adam's Creation.


NOBLE QURAN 2:30 '' Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." .....We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.


Noble Quran ''And the jinn We created before from scorching fire.''

Iblees the servant & Jinn was created from fire but was the head of the angels as also seen from the below verses of Hebrew.


We can say these following verses RELATE THE SAME STORY in the above verse of Noble Quran though you might not accept it. This the replacement of words from its real places as the Noble Quran exposes.



1) “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”?[b]

Also, God never said of any angel,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son.”[c]

6 And again, when God brings his Firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[d]

7 Indeed, when speaking of angels, he says,

“. . . who makes his angels winds
and his servants fiery flames”;





The fault or replacement abovein the Hebrews 1:7 is '' My son'' which is ''My Vicegerent or Calipha '' in our book and ''worship him'' is supposed to be ''Prostrate to him '' (out of respect ) as in the Noble quran

'' God's FIRSTBORN '' is obvious a contradiction too in Hebrews when it contradicts itself in EXODUS below

Exodus 4:22 (KJV)


22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn .

That will Make Jesus 3nd born after David who is also called the son. So 'My frstborn' as in above is an interpolation.


So first cannot be Two so both are mistakes but it ought to MAXIMUM be Only the SON ( Close to God like Vicegerent or Caliph in Arabic) and the Son being used as a figure of Speech.


2) Genesis 1:27[Full Chapter]
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Note : This does not mean God's own Image ( Bible says no Image for God ) but it rather Implies to the REAL OWN IMAGE OF ADAM's YOUTH not in form of baby or Toddler which every man human has to go through in stages .
Other verses of bible like God walking to Sarah and eating Hot cakes & fried calf meat and doing that to her are ridiculous when Compared to the enlightener Noble Quran when The True Creator need not Eat and giggle and walk to Sarah but Sends his order of Spirit to Sarah through his servant Angel above from the skies from his throne, the arsh as seen . Lot,


HOW MEANING CAN CHANGE IN TRANSLATION IN BIBLE
To find the exact meaning in modern English of those ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek terms, phrases, and sentences is very challenging. Sometimes the original words have no exact counterpart in English, so several English words may be required to reproduce the precise meaning. And English is constantly changing, as some of our words take on new meanings like the 4 letter filthy word F are used to mean which in not filthy anymore . For example, the word "gay" means something quite different today than it meant fifty years ago.

like in this funny video 'I am happy & Gay ' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5lX96qH4bQ

Just fifty years can make such difference so how about 2000 years ??


JESUS ATTENDED THE SYNOGOGUE, SO WHOM DID HE WORSHIP ?
In the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5–7), Jesus continually affirmed the authority of the Torah and the Prophets (Matthew 5:17) even in the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 5:19-20). He regularly attended synagogue (Luke 4:16), and His teaching was respected by the other Jews of His day (Luke 4:15). He taught in the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (Luke 21:37), and if He were not a Jew, His going into that part of the Temple would simply not have been allowed (Acts 21:28-30 )

So If Jesus's teachings were respected by those contemporary orthodox Jews why it was NOT respected later and Now when the Jews called the followers of Christians as Polytheists ??



Noble Quran 19:88-92 says


''They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!''


"Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!''


'At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin''

''That they should invoke a son for (Allah) THE Most Gracious.''

''For it is not consonant with THE Majesty of (Allah) ''
'
'THE Most Gracious that He should beget a son''





Noble Quran 3:66 ''Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have NO knowledge ??? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not.''


"I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god, Who is like me? " (Isaiah 44:6-7. The bible)


So the rest in next inshallah.

Talibilm,
thank you for explaining where you got your material. I thought it looked like a copy-and-paste job. It would be preferable to discuss matters with someone in their own words.
To continue addressing your and candyapple’s points:
24. Do not call people liars or make ad hominem attacks at all. It is impolite. Christ Jesus taught that you should treat others as you would have others treat you. This is known as the Golden Rule. Therefore, in the absence of clear proof to the contrary, we each should assume the other is honest, even if each thinks the other is mistaken.
25. You should not blindly listen to any so-called expert. Do your own research. Besides, according to what you quoted, candyapple misunderstands Christian doctrine, thinking that God had sex to beget Jesus. Christians do not teach this. You should first try to understand Christian doctrine before you presume to criticize it.
26. You apparently allege that, according to the Bible, Jesus accused the Jews of changing the Scriptures. Please indicate the exact verse in the Bible where Jesus said that.
27. You keep saying to listen to Bart, but you have not answered my question. Do you also listen to Bart when he rejects the Quran?
28. You disbelieve me when I say, contrary to your “Muslim scholars who do not lie,” that “periklutos” was never in the original Greek of the NT. Please show one example of an ancient NT manuscript where “periklutos” is found as a name for the Holy Spirit.
29. You laugh, saying “So Everyone became Jesus , Yeah ”
but you are closer to the truth than you think. In the Bible, Christians are even called the members of Jesus Christ’s body.
30. You rightly stated that Peter denied knowing Jesus. Peter denied Him in Jerusalem, however—not in Italy.
31. You claimed that “Holy spirit here and in many places in John does not mean literally but in figure of speech.” If you were correct, Jesus would have referred to the Holy Spirit with the neuter pronoun “it” (Greek has three genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter, and the word for “spirit,” pneuma, in Greek, is in the neuter gender). But Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit using a masculine pronoun, “He.”
32. You claimed that Muslims have fewer than 10 sects. Are Wahabbism, Daesh, and Boko Haram among them?
33. You invited me to “Bring those verses that Noble Quran said to abide by the NT and lets see what it really said about.” That might be worthwhile, but can you reply in your own words?
34. Thank you for explaining your view of historical evidence by saying, “Lol, No History can be PROVED since there is no eye witness now…and even eye witness may make some mistakes of ASSUMPTION ” You have thus admitted that Bart’s historical claims are not necessarily reliable.

 

[dwa2day]

Every scholar and intellectual has a differing approah to study, .............................. explains things in a subtle manner and lets humans reach maturity before they figure out the facts

Hi Abz2000
What a statement and I too believe that God holds our every thought and move in His hands. My life stems from a protected privileged western culture of South Africa. You may have been there on your travels between Venus and Mars. My parents were free willed and religion was about their responsibility not faith. South Africa has 11 official languages so you can imagine how that translates into religious groups. Thus a problem, freedom of choice, there are no consequence for ones actions, thus in a matter of a week one could jump in and out of several religious and no one would care or hold me accountable. Most people are not serious about their stand on religious matters as long as we not fighting. So discussions are short and generally avoid.
My views on the bible are strong, yet Islam is a force one cannot ignore, I trust God for my position and path travelled yet would like to understand Islam, both the difference and similarities but it is true what you say, we are guilty promoting our view at the expense of other without truly finding out their point of departure and thus miss out on making a more informed choice. I trust you could give me the correct perspective on this from a Muslims point of view.
In the same manner I feel I could offer you a tremendous insight into the Bible, but am hesitant as it seems you have walk a long road in you studying already and do not wish re travel a road already taken.
A question I am currently working through is the relationship between the Quran and Hadeeth. Could you assist in me in a better understanding of this?
Regards
Doug

 

[talibilm]

Talibilm,
thank you for explaining where you got your material. I thought it looked like a copy-and-paste job. It would be preferable to discuss matters with someone in their own words.
To continue addressing your and candyapple’s points:
24. Do not call people liars or make ad hominem attacks at all. It is impolite. Christ Jesus taught that you should treat others as you would have others treat you. This is known as the Golden Rule. Therefore, in the absence of clear proof to the contrary, we each should assume the other is honest, even if each thinks the other is mistaken.

Hi Goodwill,

Yep,Agreed here.

25. You should not blindly listen to any so-called expert. Do your own research. Besides, according to what you quoted, candyapple misunderstands Christian doctrine, thinking that God had sex to beget Jesus. Christians do not teach this. You should first try to understand Christian doctrine before you presume to criticize it.

Experts are important because One can't become expert in everything like I can't become my own doctor etc (If am not one , But Even the doctors discuss among themselves for better solutions) But I agree we have to use our brain too rather than believing ONLY the experts blindly because for every human God has given intellect to think and decide what is right & wrong unless he becomes BIASED & UNJUST. with his injustice he hurts none but him selves in the Long run.

Sorry to say that NOT every Christian THINKS THE SAME EVEN WITH THE BASIC ARTICLES OF FAITH and this not new but was also seen from records of oldest tafsir (extended minqabbas ibn abbas) among Christians a four fundamental groups were existing even during Prophets time itself seen through our records as on 610-620 AD only in Bahrain they were 1)Yaqubi group who claimed Esa is a God 2)Murhisia who claimed Esa was 3 in 1 3)melkunia two in one 4) the other being Begotten Son of God. BUT also a type of Christianity which was very close to Islam was also there like the one followed by Negus or the king of Abyssinia or Ethopia ( they fleed far when Nazareens were executed by Romans and Paul supporters), so that's why It seems our Prophet ordered the first 100 odd muslims to take asylum with Christian king of Abyssinia (Ethopia) which was much farer Though Najran in Yemen was nearer with the head quarters for Christians there, those days.


Candyapple has loads of info but some slip of words does happen with everyone of us

26. You apparently allege that, according to the Bible, Jesus accused the Jews of changing the Scriptures. Please indicate the exact verse in the Bible where Jesus said that.

I have yet to find THE exact verse but their actions with outside world and Noble Quran's proofs and the verses of NT like ''Jesus said:

“I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” IMPLIES that CLEARLY

Zaboor or Psalms of Prophet David was altered by the Jews. Many Prophets including John , the Baptist Yahya (as) was killed .This was the Reason for Jesus calling them frequently' Ye people of inequity( Injustice) 'with the jews on many issues since they did not follow their torah and verses condemning killing of Prophets as said in the Noble Quran Idolatory , adultery with NT etc are a proof since a part of them took Ezra as a son of God too.

27. You keep saying to listen to Bart, but you have not answered my question. Do you also listen to Bart when he rejects the Quran?

Bart actually is confirming the Noble Quran without his knowledge by repeating these words frequently '' If God revealed those verses he would have protected it '' But he fails to think all the scriptures before were sent Only For a particular Nation and untill a particular time or era and NOT FOREVER as in John https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14:16&version=KJ21

28. You disbelieve me when I say, contrary to your “Muslim scholars who do not lie,” that “periklutos” was never in the original Greek of the NT. Please show one example of an ancient NT manuscript where “periklutos” is found as a name for the Holy Spirit.

I am weak in remembering those precise words but the fact is even today I found the Proof that Jewish translators had ALWAYS translated names which I saw from Isaiah ' Baca' (or Mecca) has been translated into 'Pilgrimage ' in CJB translations . That's not fair and it will mislead the lay readers.

29. You laugh, saying “So Everyone became Jesus , Yeah ”
but you are closer to the truth than you think. In the Bible, Christians are even called the members of Jesus Christ’s body.

Because ' Like me' you had given a general explanation that every Pious person does. When we look out for the special charecterstics of the Comforter what Jesus is explaining in his last moments of this world WHICH OUGHT TO BE VERY SPECIAL
Particular.

30. You rightly stated that Peter denied knowing Jesus. Peter denied Him in Jerusalem, however—not in Italy.

I was probably talking on the probability of the assembly of the 150 disciples in a months times after this great times of tension of Jesus's Crucifixion. Its like saying some terrorists or Laden's students openly assembled again in New york just in a month times after the twin tower tragedy , lol ;D IMPOSSIBLE. sorry I do not mean the Nazareens were terrorists but the Roman Rule & Jews had become their enemies.

31. You claimed that “Holy spirit here and in many places in John does not mean literally but in figure of speech.” If you were correct, Jesus would have referred to the Holy Spirit with the neuter pronoun “it” (Greek has three genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter, and the word for “spirit,” pneuma, in Greek, is in the neuter gender). But Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit using a masculine pronoun, “He.”

Jesus was a Jew and was sent to the Lost sheep of Israel and not to Polytheists Greeks with their Nude idols of Jupieter so I am sure Jesus mostly spoke Aramaic and in Hebrew but Bart Confirms Jesus lived among the aramaic peasants . So Jesus Never Spoke Greek . though you may say his disciple was a greek but kindy prove it. even if you prove it still i will say the disciple spoke in his master's language than vice versa.

32. You claimed that Muslims have fewer than 10 sects. Are Wahabbism, Daesh, and Boko Haram among them?

Some shias claiming Ali is God are not muslims and are from Ibn sabah - Paul like groups who were Hypocritic Jews who came to mislead the Monotheists .(Muslims , Nazareens) I am not supposed to say someone who claim to be a muslim (unless he contradicts 5 pillars of Islam like Bahais is a difference of opinions) to be a non muslim. Daesh is the worst and Prophet :saws: already predicted some youth will come to spoil Islam's name and it would also be right to kill them,Hope Turkey does that.

33. You invited me to “Bring those verses that Noble Quran said to abide by the NT and lets see what it really said about.” That might be worthwhile, but can you reply in your own words?

If those verses which you have or means to say that Muslims MUST follow the NT OR OT are not specified in this thread please list them and we will find out the truth.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?424656-MISQUOTED-Noble-Quran-verses-by-Apologetics

34. Thank you for explaining your view of historical evidence by saying, “Lol, No History can be PROVED since there is no eye witness now…and even eye witness may make some mistakes of ASSUMPTION ” You have thus admitted that Bart’s historical claims are not necessarily reliable.

No I didn't mean so since he uses very known Historical facts to the world from various sources outside christendom , like the Roman Kings never gave a decent burial to those criminals nailed on the cross and let them rot eaten by scavengers as a lesson to the bystander public etc but as per my reading of Bart's Minds from his several speeches he is still in very MUCH love with his Christian brethren that's why he gives so many proofs from their books against them and also from various world histories which is THE TRAIT OF AN UNBIASED Good class HISTORIAN but Never gives a direct VERDICT on them but says ' let the listeners decide themselves' since he does not want to HURT his loved ones. His loyalty and straightforwardness has won the confidence of the Shrewd archeological Dept of Israel who all ways invites Bart to decide in case they find any antiquities of Judeo christian origin and I believe as he claims he is agnostic , upset with God for not safeguarding his scriptures which is very obvious when he says something like its painful :exhausted to know the truth after a long service 30 years to his Christendom since he has high spirit to stick ONLY to the truth.

 

[goodwill]

Would like to add some info on 14, 15 and 22 by goodwill
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...predict-muhammad-post2926005.html#post2926005
it seems that some prefer to argue in bad faith than to come together upon the truth..indicates volumes as regards motive. Real believers in Allah who accepted the signs and messengers of Allah and did their best to obey Allah will be united in paradise.

Bear in mind that these are not answers, just info:

In point 14, you implied that since it is atated in the Quran:
وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ الإِنجِيلِ بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فِيهِ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ {47
005:047 Khan
:
Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fasiqun (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allah.


it might mean that Allah is saying that the books remain in pristine condition.
However the fact that they have been edited is clarified in Chapter 2 of the Quran, here:

فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَـذَا مِنْ عِندِ اللّهِ لِيَشْتَرُواْ بِهِ ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُمْ مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ {79
002:079 Khan
:
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby.

You may already know of the biblical curses condemning the corrupt scribes and pharisees.

It appears that Allah, by telling them to judge by what Allah has reavealed therein will come to the truth anyway, this can be seen in the fact that once Allah sent the Prophet pbuh, He made him an automatic reference point just as they had previously with Jesus, though they had the book before them they would come to him for judgement, and even though some of them falsely claimed to disbelieve in what he had been sent with, they would still have to come to him ultimately (though some of them tried to get concessions via deception and false symmetrical hacks (ancient babylonian sorcey), this can be seen again in the following verse:


وَكَيْفَ يُحَكِّمُونَكَ وَعِندَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللّهِ ثُمَّ يَتَوَلَّوْنَ مِن بَعْدِ ذَلِكَ وَمَا أُوْلَـئِكَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ {43
005:043
:
But how do they come to you for decision while they have the Taurat (Torah), in which is the decision of Allah; yet even after that, they turn away. For they are not (really) believers.


Notice that a question is posed requiring them to probe their own minds.
For if they accept the guidance of those books they would come to the truth anyway, and if they believed in them sincerely, they would try to adhere to them completely, then they would end up upgrading to Islam anyway since they would see the truth and more fitting guidance.

For those who reject what they don't like of the previous scriptures, Allah asks them: is it that you believe in a part if the book and reject a part?
If it's all true and no additions have been made, you may ask yourself why nobody has implemented it since just before the advent of Muhammad pbuh despite there being no political constraint.

Allah sent the new law when people needed it.
The tribal experiment was over and people were beginning to mingle more.
He wasn't making their faith vain, but rather upgrading and completing it.

In point 15, you memtioned greek, although most of us know that Aramaic was the spoken language, greek appears to have only become a big factor after the dawah was spread to the region, the initial target audience were the jews, as can be seen from the crumbs under table statement.
Not that there's much to argue about.


Regarding point 22 on the issue of suckling, the five and ten feeds thing appears to be about babies who were within the age of suckling, that a one off or so feed doesn't make a person a foster child.



Regarding the suckling of salim the ex-adopted son and later slave, there is much confusion and Allah knows best, but the older and more mature mothers of the believers appear to have taken Aishah (ra)'s claim at face value but stated that it would have been a one off for salim, and that it was unacceptable for them.
I cannot find any reports that indicate that the Prophet pbuh had made that concession for anybody else.



Ibn Abu Mulaika reported that al-Qasim b. Muhammad b. Abu Bakr had narrated to him
that 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail b. 'Amr came to Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) and said:
Messenger of Allah, Salim (the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa) is living with us in our house, and he has attained (puberty) as men attain it and has acquired knowledge (of the sex problems) as men acquire, whereupon he said: Suckle him so that he may become unlawful (in regard to marriage) for you He (Ibn Abu Mulaika) said: I refrained from (narrating this hadith) for a year or so on account of fear. I then met al-Qasim and said to him: You narrated to me a hadith which I did not narrate (to anyone) afterwards. He said: What is that? I informed him, whereupon he said: Narrate it on my authority that 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) had narrated that to me.

وَحَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ رَافِعٍ، - وَاللَّفْظُ لاِبْنِ رَافِعٍ - قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ، أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ جُرَيْجٍ، أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ، أَنَّ الْقَاسِمَ بْنَ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ، أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّ عَائِشَةَ أَخْبَرَتْهُ أَنَّ سَهْلَةَ بِنْتَ سُهَيْلِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو جَاءَتِ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَتْ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنَّ سَالِمًا - لِسَالِمٍ مَوْلَى أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ - مَعَنَا فِي بَيْتِنَا وَقَدْ بَلَغَ مَا يَبْلُغُ الرِّجَالُ وَعَلِمَ مَا يَعْلَمُ الرِّجَالُ ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏ "‏ أَرْضِعِيهِ تَحْرُمِي عَلَيْهِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَمَكَثْتُ سَنَةً أَوْ قَرِيبًا مِنْهَا لاَ أُحَدِّثُ بِهِ وَهِبْتُهُ ثُمَّ لَقِيتُ الْقَاسِمَ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ لَقَدْ حَدَّثْتَنِي حَدِيثًا مَا حَدَّثْتُهُ بَعْدُ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَمَا هُوَ فَأَخْبَرْتُهُ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَحَدِّثْهُ عَنِّي أَنَّ عَائِشَةَ أَخْبَرَتْنِيهِ ‏.‏
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1453 c
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 35
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3426
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Umm Salama said to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her):
A young boy who is at the threshold of puberty comes to you. I, however, do not like that he should come to me, whereupon 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) said: Don't you see in Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) a model for you? She also said: The wife of Abu Hudhaifa said: Messenger of Allah, Salim comes to me and now he is a (grown-up) person, and there is something that (rankles) in the mind of Abu Hudhaifa about him, whereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: Suckle him (so that he may become your foster-child), and thus he may be able to come to you (freely).

وَحَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ، عَنْ حُمَيْدِ بْنِ نَافِعٍ، عَنْ زَيْنَبَ بِنْتِ أُمِّ سَلَمَةَ، قَالَتْ قَالَتْ أُمُّ سَلَمَةَ لِعَائِشَةَ إِنَّهُ يَدْخُلُ عَلَيْكِ الْغُلاَمُ الأَيْفَعُ الَّذِي مَا أُحِبُّ أَنْ يَدْخُلَ عَلَىَّ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَقَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ أَمَا لَكِ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أُسْوَةٌ قَالَتْ إِنَّ امْرَأَةَ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ قَالَتْ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنَّ سَالِمًا يَدْخُلُ عَلَىَّ وَهُوَ رَجُلٌ وَفِي نَفْسِ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ مِنْهُ شَىْءٌ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ أَرْضِعِيهِ حَتَّى يَدْخُلَ عَلَيْكِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1453 d
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 36
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3427
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Zainab daughter of Abu Salama reported:
I heard Umm Salama, the wife of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon himy, saying to 'A'isha: By Allah, I do not like to be seen by a young boy who has passed the period of fosterage, whereupon she ('A'isha) said: Why is it so? Sahla daughter of Suhail came to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and said: Allah's Messenger, I swear by Allah that I see in the face of Abu Hudhaifa (the signs of disgust) on account of entering of Salim (in the house), whereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: Suckle him. She (Sahla bint Suhail) said: He has a heard. But he (again) said: Suckle him, and it would remove what is there (expression of disgust) on the face of Abu Hudhaifa. She said: (I did that) and, by Allah, I did not see (any sign of disgust) on the face of Abu Hudhaifa.

وَحَدَّثَنِي أَبُو الطَّاهِرِ، وَهَارُونُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ الأَيْلِيُّ، - وَاللَّفْظُ لِهَارُونَ - قَالاَ حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ وَهْبٍ، أَخْبَرَنِي مَخْرَمَةُ بْنُ بُكَيْرٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ حُمَيْدَ بْنَ نَافِعٍ، يَقُولُ سَمِعْتُ زَيْنَبَ، بِنْتَ أَبِي سَلَمَةَ تَقُولُ سَمِعْتُ أُمَّ سَلَمَةَ، زَوْجَ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم تَقُولُ لِعَائِشَةَ وَاللَّهِ مَا تَطِيبُ نَفْسِي أَنْ يَرَانِي الْغُلاَمُ قَدِ اسْتَغْنَى عَنِ الرَّضَاعَةِ ‏.‏ فَقَالَتْ لِمَ قَدْ جَاءَتْ سَهْلَةُ بِنْتُ سُهَيْلٍ إِلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَتْ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهِ إِنِّي لأَرَى فِي وَجْهِ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ مِنْ دُخُولِ سَالِمٍ ‏.‏ قَالَتْ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ أَرْضِعِيهِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالَتْ إِنَّهُ ذُو لِحْيَةٍ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ أَرْضِعِيهِ يَذْهَبْ مَا فِي وَجْهِ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالَتْ وَاللَّهِ مَا عَرَفْتُهُ فِي وَجْهِ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ ‏.‏
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1453 e
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 37
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3428
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Umm Salama, the wife of Allah's Apostle (ﷺ), used to say that all wives of Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) disclaimed the idea that one with this type of fosterage (having been suckled after the proper period) should come to them. and said to 'A'isha:
By Allah, we do not find this but a sort of concession given by Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) only for Salim, and no one was going to be allowed to enter (our houses) with this type of fosterage and we do not subscribe to this view.

حَدَّثَنِي عَبْدُ الْمَلِكِ بْنُ شُعَيْبِ بْنِ اللَّيْثِ، حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي، عَنْ جَدِّي، حَدَّثَنِي عُقَيْلُ بْنُ، خَالِدٍ عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، أَنَّهُ قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ زَمْعَةَ، أَنَّ أُمَّهُ، زَيْنَبَ بِنْتَ أَبِي سَلَمَةَ أَخْبَرَتْهُ أَنَّ أُمَّهَا أُمَّ سَلَمَةَ زَوْجَ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَانَتْ تَقُولُ أَبَى سَائِرُ أَزْوَاجِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنْ يُدْخِلْنَ عَلَيْهِنَّ أَحَدًا بِتِلْكَ الرَّضَاعَةِ وَقُلْنَ لِعَائِشَةَ وَاللَّهِ مَا نَرَى هَذَا إِلاَّ رُخْصَةً أَرْخَصَهَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم لِسَالِمٍ خَاصَّةً فَمَا هُوَ بِدَاخِلٍ عَلَيْنَا أَحَدٌ بِهَذِهِ الرَّضَاعَةِ وَلاَ رَائِينَا.
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1454
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 38
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3429
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'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) visited me when a man was sitting near me, and he seemed to disapprove of that. And I saw signs of anger on his face and I said: Messenger of Allah, he is my brother by forsterage, whereupon he said: Consider who your brothers are because of fosterage since fosterage is through hunger (i. e. in infancy).


حَدَّثَنَا هَنَّادُ بْنُ السَّرِيِّ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الأَحْوَصِ، عَنْ أَشْعَثَ بْنِ أَبِي الشَّعْثَاءِ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ مَسْرُوقٍ، قَالَ قَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ دَخَلَ عَلَىَّ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَعِنْدِي رَجُلٌ قَاعِدٌ فَاشْتَدَّ ذَلِكَ عَلَيْهِ وَرَأَيْتُ الْغَضَبَ فِي وَجْهِهِ قَالَتْ فَقُلْتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنَّهُ أَخِي مِنَ الرَّضَاعَةِ ‏.‏ قَالَتْ فَقَالَ ‏ "‏ انْظُرْنَ إِخْوَتَكُنَّ مِنَ الرَّضَاعَةِ فَإِنَّمَا الرَّضَاعَةُ مِنَ الْمَجَاعَةِ‏".
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1455 a
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 39
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3430
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http://sunnah.com/muslim/17



The narration goes as;
عن عائشة قالت لقد نزلت آية الرجم ورضاعة الكبير عشرا ولقد كان في صحيفة تحت سريري فلما مات رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وتشاغلنا بموته دخل داجن فأكلها
Reported 'Aisha (RA): ‘the verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times was revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) expired and we were occupied by his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.’ (Sunan Ibn Majah, Hadith 1944)
1- Authenticity of the narration:
Whenever we have a narration we ought to see whether it is authentic or not? The narration infact has some problems.
The particular chain given in Sunan Ibn Majah finds one of the narrators Muhammad bin Ishaq narrating it using the word عن ('an) which is rather an ambiguous way of narration and renders the narration weak when used by a narrator known for practicing Tadlis [practice of subtly missing a link] and Muhammad Ibn Ishaq is indeed such a narrator. Thus through particular chain of narration in Sunan Ibn Majah the narration is weak and unauthentic due the above mentioned defect though it has other issues as well as mentioned in the lines to follow. This is clarified by Shaykh Muhammad Taqi Usmani in Takmala Fath Al-Mulhim 1/69 pub. Darul Ahya Al-Turath Al-Arabi, Beirut.
In Musnad Ahmad the same narration is given through the same chain but with an explicit way of narration i.e. it does not have the defect like the narration in Ibn Majah’s collection. But the narration is exposed to more criticism because many other narrators have related from 'Aisha (RA) about the suckling/breastfeeding but no one has narrated the words found in this chain even though the narrators in those cases are more reliable and consistent than Muhammad bin Ishaq. And due to thefact of these words being narrated solely by him and in defiance to other much more reliable narrators, scholars have questioned its authenticity. Shaykh Shu’aib Arnaud has classified it as Da’if in his classification of Musnad Ahmad. See Musnad Ahmad 6/269 Hadith 26359.
2- The narration no way questions Qur’an infallibility:

1- One of the two allegedly lost verses as per this narration was about stoning i.e. punishment of married adulterers. But other narrations prove that a commandment was revealed about stoning but the Holy Prophet (PBUH) did not allow it to be written as a part of the Qur’an implying that it was not meant to be Qur’an integral part. Following narrations testify to this;
a-It is reported in a narration from Kathir bin Salt that: Zaid (b. Thabit) said: 'I heard the Messenger of Allah say, 'When a married man or woman commit adultery stone them both (to death)', (hearing this) Amr said,
فقال عمرو : لما نزلت أتيت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقلت : أكتبها ؟ فكأنه كره ذلك

'When this was revealed I came to Prophet and asked if I could write it, he (the Prophet) disliked it.' (Mustadrik Al-Hakim, Hadith 8184. Hakim called it Sahih)
b- About this 'verse' Kathir bin Salt says that he, Zaid bin Thabit and Marwan bin Hakam were discussing as to why it is not written in the Quranic manuscript and Umar bin Khattab was present with them and listening to their discussion he said he knew it better then them and told them that he came to Messenger of Allah and said:
يا رسول الله أكتبني آية الرجم قال فأتيته فذكرته قال فذكر آية الرجم قال فقال يا رسول الله أكتبني آية الرجم قال لا استطيع ذاك
"'O Messenger of Allah, let the verse about stoning be written for me.' He (the Prophet) said, 'I can't do this.'" (Sunan Al-Kubra Baihiqi 8/211 & Sunan Al-Kubra Nasai Hadith 7148. Albani (in Sahiha 6/412) said Baihiqi pointed to its authenticity)
Had it meant to be a part of the Qur’an why would Holy Prophet (PBUH) dislike its being written and who could stop him from doing it?
2- The second allegedly lost verse was about suckling of an adult ten times buut in this case too we have other narrations which categorically say that the verse was abrogated. And interestingly those narrations come through 'Aisha (RA) only. In Sahih Muslim we read;

عَنْ عَائِشَةَ أَنَّهَا قَالَتْ كَانَ فِيمَا أُنْزِلَ مِنْ الْقُرْآنِ عَشْرُ رَضَعَاتٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ يُحَرِّمْنَ ثُمَّ نُسِخْنَ بِخَمْسٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ فَتُوُفِّيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَهُنَّ فِيمَا يُقْرَأُ مِنْ الْقُرْآنِ

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings ... (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 2634)

This narration explicitly says that verse about ten sucklings was abrogated, one could wonder how it could have been under her pillow after the completion of revelation.

Having known that neither of them was meant to be part of the Qur’an; even if we accept the narration in question we will have to say that perhaps 'Aisha (RA) had kept them with her as a historical record and nothing more.


Also the claim of stoning being a Quranic verse and not a statement of the Prophet pbuh is to be looked at:

Ibn Majah
Hadith no: 2553
Narrated / Authority Of: Ibn Abbas
that Umar bin Khattab said: "I fear that after a long time has passed, some will say: 'I do not find (the sentence of) stoning in the Book of Allah (saw),' and they will go astray by abandoning one of the obligations enjoined by Allah (SWT). Rather stoning is a must if a man is married (or previously married) and proof is established, or if pregnancy results or if he admits it. I have read it (in the Quran). "And if an old man and an old woman commit adultery, stone them both." The Messenger of Allah (saw) stoned (adulterers) and we stoned (them) after him.' " Sahih

It appears here that it is a previous sunnah revived by the Prophet pbuh which sheds light on why he wouldn't allow it to be written down:

Ibn Majah
Hadith no: 2558
Narrated / Authority Of: Bara bin Azib
"The Messenger of Allah (saw) passed by a Jew with a blackened face who had been flogged. He called them and said: 'Is this the punishment for the adulterer that you find in your Book?' They said: 'Yes.' Then he called one of their scholars and said: 'I adjure you by Allah (SWT) Who sent down the Tawrah (Torah) to Musa! Is this the punishment for the adulterer that you find in your Book?' He said: 'No; if you had not adjured me by Allah (SWT), I would not have told you. The punishment for the adulterer that we find in our Book is stoning, but many of our nobles were being stoned (because of the prevalence of adultery among them), so if we caught one of our nobles (committing adultery), we would let him go; but if we caught one of the weak among us, we would carry out the punishment on him. We said: "Come, let us agree upon something that we may impose on both noble and weak alike." So we agreed to blacken the face and whip them, instead of stoning.' The Prophet (saw) said: 'O Allah (SWT), I am the first of those who revive your command which they had killed off,' and he issued orders that (the man) be stoned." Sahih





There does appear to be much confusion with this stoning and suckling and goat eating thing and Allah knows best, it may possible have been built up on the confusion caused during the accusations..
..

My sickness was aggravated, and when I returned home, Allah's Apostle came to me, and after greeting he said, 'How is that (girl)?' I requested him to allow me to go to my parents. I wanted then to be sure of the news through them I Allah's Apostle allowed me, and I went to my parents and asked my mother, 'What are the people talking about?' She said, 'O my daughter! Don't worry much about this matter. By Allah, never is there a charming woman loved by her husband who has other wives, but the women would forge false news about her.' I said, 'Glorified be Allah! Are the people really taking of this matter?' That night I kept on weeping and could not sleep till morning. In the morning Allah's Apostle called Ali bin Abu Talib and Usama bin Zaid when he saw the Divine Inspiration delayed, to consul them about divorcing his wife (i.e. 'Aisha). Usama bin Zaid said what he knew of the good reputation of his wives and added, 'O Allah's Apostle! Keep you wife, for, by Allah, we know nothing about her but good.' 'Ali bin Abu Talib said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Allah has no imposed restrictions on you, and there are many women other than she, yet you may ask the woman-servant who will tell you the truth.' On that Allah's Apostle called Buraira and said, 'O Burair. Did you ever see anything which roused your suspicions about her?' Buraira said, 'No, by Allah Who has sent you with the Truth, I have never seen in her anything faulty except that she is a girl of immature age, who sometimes sleeps and leaves the dough for the goats to eat.' On that day Allah's Apostle ascended the pulpit and requested that somebody support him in punishing 'Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul. Allah's Apostle said, 'Who will support me to punish that person ('Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul) who has hurt me by slandering the reputation of my family? By Allah, I know nothing about my family but good, and they have accused a person about whom I know nothing except good, and he never entered my house except in my company.'

Sad bin Mu'adh got up and said, 'O Allah's Apostle! by Allah, I will relieve you from him. If that man is from the tribe of the Aus, then we will chop his head off, and if he is from our brothers, the Khazraj, then order us, and we will fulfill your order.' On that Sad bin 'Ubada, the chief of the Khazraj and before this incident, he had been a pious man, got up, motivated by his zeal for his tribe and said, 'By Allah, you have told a lie; you cannot kill him, and you will never be able to kill him.' On that Usaid bin Al-Hadir got up and said (to Sad bin 'Ubada), 'By Allah! you are a liar. By Allah, we will kill him; and you are a hypocrite, defending the hypocrites.' On this the two tribes of Aus and Khazraj got excited and were about to fight each other, while Allah's Apostle was standing on the pulpit. He got down and quietened them till they became silent and he kept quiet. On that day I kept on weeping so much so that neither did my tears stop, nor could I sleep......


http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/bukhari/bh3/bh3_828.htm

Abz2000, I appreciate your candor. On surah 5:47, I agree that this verse implies that the books of the Christians are “pristine” or at least sufficiently so. Surah 2:79 does not necessarily contradict 5:47. If it does, then there is a contradiction in the Quran.

On your point about the Lord Jesus, it is true that the Lord Jesus condemned the scribes and Pharisees, but He never accused them of deliberately corrupting the Scriptures. Indeed, throughout the NT, Jesus takes the preservation of the Scriptures for granted. God is faithful, after all, and preserves knowledge.

Like 5:47, surah 5:43, which you also mentioned, confirms the preservation of the Torah. So then in these verses and others, the Quran confirms the Scriptures of both the Jews and the Christians.


On breastfeeding adults in Islam, you described Sunan ibn Majah 1944 as “weak,” but the Arabic-English edition that I quoted from rates the hadith as “hasan,” and so the hadith is considered by the experts to be probably reliable. I can provide my source, if you like. As mentioned before, it was recorded in Sunan ibn Majah 1944 that, according to Aishah, a sheep ate the verse about about breastfeeding. In addition, two ahadith in Sahih Muslim say that the verses on breastfeeding had been “in the Holy Qur'an.” You quoted from this source, The Book of Suckling at http://sunnah.com/muslim/17 , but in your post you did not include these two ahadith which are also there :


1. 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur'an (and recited by the Muslims).
Reference
: Sahih Muslim 1452 a
In-book reference
: Book 17, Hadith 30
USC-MSA web (English) reference
: Book 8, Hadith 3421
(deprecated numbering scheme)


and
2. 'Amra reported that she heard 'A'isha (Allah he pleased with her) discussing fosterage which (makes marriage) unlawful; and she ('A'isha) said:There was revealed in the Holy Qur'an ten clear sucklings, and then five clear (sucklings).
Reference
: Sahih Muslim 1452 b
In-book reference
: Book 17, Hadith 31
USC-MSA web (English) reference
: Book 8, Hadith 3422
(deprecated numbering scheme)


So, in summary, if today’s Quran lacks the verse on breastfeeding, and two reliable ahadith and one probably reliable hadith all agree that the verse on breastfeeding was originally in the Quran but was later lost, then the conclusion according to the Muslim sources themselves is that the Quran has not been perfectly preserved.

 

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