Differences between The Qur'an, The Tanakh and The Bible

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Please tell me then, when was it changed? We have a few copies from times long before Jesus, and they are no different than today.

Well, I wasn't planning on entering a discussion on textual integrity in this thread, but I'll just ask you very simply:
Open up the Tanakh to Yechezkiel 23. Did God really reveal that chapter? Can any moral human being really attribute such literature to God??

Did we accept Jesus? He was also beyond the time of prophecy (Malachi was the last). He came to replace the law, and as God commanded us, we knew that was wrong.

That's not true at all.
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

2:40. O Children of Israel! Remember My Favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfill (your obligations to) My Covenant (with you) so that I fulfill (My Obligations to) your covenant (with Me), and fear none but Me.


41. And believe in what I have sent down (this Qur'ân), confirming that which is with you, and be not the first to disbelieve therein, and buy not with My Verses a small price (i.e. getting a small gain by selling My Verses), and fear Me and Me Alone.

2:87. And indeed, We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear signs and supported him with Rûh-ul-Qudus (Gabriel). Is it that whenever there came to you a Messenger with what you yourselves desired not, you grew arrogant? Some, you disbelieved and some, you killed.

It is a different religion

2:132. And this (submission to Allâh, Islâm) was enjoined by Abraham upon his sons and by Jacob (Israel), (saying), "O my sons! Allâh has chosen for you the (true) religion, then die not except in the Faith of Islâm (as Muslims - Islâmic Monotheism)."

that demands a belief in a different prophet that no Jew can accept

2:91. And when it is said to them (the Jews), "Believe in what Allâh has sent down," they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us." And they disbelieve in that which came after it, while it is the truth confirming what is with them. Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him to them): "Why then have you killed the Prophets of Allâh aforetime, if you indeed have been believers

2:136. Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Jacob], and that which has been given to Moses and Jesus, and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm)

2:146. Those to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognise him as they recongise their sons. But verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it - [i.e. the qualities of Muhammad which are written in the Torah and the Injeel (Gospel)].

147. (This is) the truth from your Lord. So be you not one of those who doubt

We cannot reject what God gave us.

Evidently, that is not what the Qur'an is asking you to do.

He was also beyond the time of prophecy (Malachi was the last).

Let's discuss this. Why don't you show me the evidence about an end in Prophecy.

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

Open up the Tanakh to Yechezkiel 23. Did God really reveal that chapter? Can any moral human being really attribute such literature to God??

Although it is inspired by God, only the Torah (which is the written law), and the Oral law (comparable to Sunnah being the way of Muhammed in the Quran, Talmud is the way of the Torah) were given directly to Moses. The rest of the Tanakh came later.

That's not true at all.

Officially, he didn't come to replace the law, but even according to the christian scriptures he commanded acts that contradict the law, and belief in Jesus (both as God, saviour, messiah, and prophet) has led to deviance from the law.

Let's discuss this. Why don't you show me the evidence about an end in Prophecy.

Well, according to christians, the time of prophecy continues until armageddon. According to Muslims (I think) prophecy ends with Muhammed.

The Talmud (Sanhedrin 11a, Yoma 9b, Sotah 48b, Tosefta Sotah 13:4, Shir HaShirim Rabbah 8:11) records a formal decision made by the Sanhedrin that the office of prophet was formally closed with Malachi.

This coincided with the destruction of the First Temple, which had housed the ark which God in the Torah said He would speak to the prophet through. Although the Temple was rebuilt, the Second Temple did not contain the ark (as it has been hidden somewhere in Israel, although some say it is being kept by God, who will return it to Moshaich). Hence, prophecy ended with Malachi, who was the last prophet to have lived while the First Temple stood.

The Torah source is Exodus 25:22: "I will commune with you there [through the Tabernacle/Temple], speaking to you from above the ark-cover, from between the two cherubs that are on the Ark of Testimony. [In this manner] I will give you instructions for the Israelites."

The Quran only says this concerning the Ark: Their prophet said to them, "The sign of his kingship is that the Ark of the Covenant will be restored to you, bringing assurances from your Lord, and relics left by the people of Moses and the people of Aaron. It will be carried by the angels. This should be a convincing sign for you, if you are really believers." 002:248

I think you've asked me before and I apologize on my lateness.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Thanks for the post, SF2K.

Although it is inspired by God, only the Torah (which is the written law), and the Oral law (comparable to Sunnah being the way of Muhammed in the Quran, Talmud is the way of the Torah) were given directly to Moses. The rest of the Tanakh came later.

So Tanakha was inspired by God, so therefore you still believe that God inspired Yechezkiel 23?
And trust me, its there in the Torah too. Read Bereishhit 19:30-36. There are several other examples as well.

According to Muslims (I think) prophecy ends with Muhammed.

That's correct.

The Talmud (Sanhedrin 11a, Yoma 9b, Sotah 48b, Tosefta Sotah 13:4, Shir HaShirim Rabbah 8:11) records a formal decision made by the Sanhedrin that the office of prophet was formally closed with Malachi.

Who are the Sanhedrin?

This coincided with the destruction of the First Temple, which had housed the ark which God in the Torah said He would speak to the prophet through.

How does that work? Could you tell me more about the ark?

The Torah source is Exodus 25:22: "I will commune with you there [through the Tabernacle/Temple], speaking to you from above the ark-cover, from between the two cherubs that are on the Ark of Testimony. [In this manner] I will give you instructions for the Israelites."

Does that negate revelation in any other way?

Thanks.

 

[yoshiyahu]

Yirmeyahu 23 is about adulterers & idolatorous people, as many of the verses specifically identify:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16020

 

[yoshiyahu]

What is wrong about Ezekiel 23? Be more specific, please.

About the (temporary) ceasing of prophecy-

Hosea 3:4,5

For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor teraphim. Afterwards shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.

 

[yoshiyahu]

Who are the Sanhedrin?

The Sanhedrin is the equivalent of a supreme court in Judaism. It is the highest court, and decisions made by it are binding upon all Jews. It has not been in existence for 1500 years, however the conditions are such that it could be potentially reinstated in the near furture.

 

[yoshiyahu]

And when it is said to them (the Jews), "Believe in what Allâh has sent down," they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us." And they disbelieve in that which came after it, while it is the truth confirming what is with them. Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him to them): "Why then have you killed the Prophets of Allâh aforetime, if you indeed have been believers?"[/color][/b][/i]

There is one big problem with this argument. No human on the face of the earth in the time period the Qu'ran was given had killed any prophet. Prior to that, there had been no prophets for centuries. This verse contradicts the idea of not holding a person responsible for the sins of his fathers.

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

So Tanakha was inspired by God, so therefore you still believe that God inspired Yechezkiel 23?
And trust me, its there in the Torah too. Read Bereishhit 19:30-36. There are several other examples as well.

I'm afraid I don't see your point Al-'Adl? These speak of things that happend. The Tanakh is history. The Torah is the law, but it is also history. Would you say a book that describes trangressions against God ungodly? Does a history book become false when it includes things that are neither plesant, nor something one should strive to do?

Who are the Sanhedrin?

They were the panel of 71 Judges who begun their appointment in the book of Judges (previously, since Judges could only be someone who had recieved smicha "ordination", Moses and Joshua had been the effective Judges of Torah law). Consider them the Jewish supreme court for Torah law, and each one had to be ordained in a direct line from Moses.
http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/sanhedrin.htm
These Judges are mandated by God in Deut. 16:18, but Sanhedrin usually refers to the highest court.

How does that work? Could you tell me more about the ark?

Besides direct revelation for prophets, the ark was a powerful artifact. Wherever it went, it brought the favor of God with it. It housed the original ten commandments, the second ten commandments, a pot of mana, Aaron's staff, and the first torah. It killed a few people who touched it directly (who were not ordained) and allowed the Israelites to win battles.

The philistines stole it once and it brought many plauges on them.
More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ark_of_the_Covenant

Does that negate revelation in any other way?

As prophecy is the only way the will of God can be recieved, except through the Law, I do not know how revelation would otherwise be recieved.

 

[yoshiyahu]

The point I'm making is very simple. God's chosen people are those who obey His commandements, not any particular nation. As long as the Jews obeyed God's commandments, they were the chosen people.

I partly agree with you. Jews will always be chosen in the sense that the covenant of the Torah is eternal - both the Torah and the Prophets state this very clearly. However, it does not mean that one will be favored - you must adhere to the terms of your covenant to be favored.

We can no longer say that it is 100% the word of God.

Are you aware that many make that accusation of the Qu'ran?

Would the Jews accept him if he came from amongst the Jews? Interesting question.

If the prophet did not add or detract from the Torah, and was able to verify that he/she was truly a prophet, then certainly.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Thanks for your posts guys. For now I'll just respond to one of yoshiyahu's points.

There is one big problem with this argument. No human on the face of the earth in the time period the Qu'ran was given had killed any prophet. Prior to that, there had been no prophets for centuries. This verse contradicts the idea of not holding a person responsible for the sins of his fathers.

That's a good question. This verse is certainly not holding the Jews responsible for the sins of their ancestors but it makes a few points:

The current jews claimed to be following and believing in Prophets whom their ancestors rejected or killed. In this way they were repeating the pattern of rejecting their current Prophet, and allowing their descendents to profess belief in the previous prophet when the next prophet would come. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh was the final prophet and this pattern of rejecting coud not continue.
Judaism professes the distinction of the Children of Israel as a nation, therefore it is not illogical for the Qur'an to question them about their nation. If the Jews had really been following the truth and the message given to them, they should have followed the Prophets sent to them. But they were really just using this as an excuse.

Let's take a look at another example:
2:65 And indeed you knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (i.e. Saturday).
Here Allah is reminding them of something that was comitted only by a portion of them. But it is something to reflect on for those who think that God selects nations, and not individuals. The reality is, if you profess yourself as a chosen nation then in a way, are you not accepting responsibilty of the actions of the nation? If you want to look at the broad picture, then you cannot be selective in what you look at.

2:52. Then after that We forgave you so that you might be grateful.

Thanks again for the informative posts. I'll be reading.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Are you aware that many make that accusation of the Qu'ran?

Yes I am aware that many (mostly missionaries) try to make this argument, but I am forunate enough to have study the subject in some depth, and therefore can recognize the falsity of their charges.

There is a good book (which i keep recommending ) by M. M. Al-Azami on the compilation of the Qur'an as well as the Old Testament and New Testament. He relies completely on textual proof and it is the definitive response to all charges on the subject.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

If the prophet did not add or detract from the Torah, and was able to verify that he/she was truly a prophet, then certainly.

Now I'm confused. I thought the age of prophecy had ended?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

What if a non-Jew does not add or detract from the Torah and is able to verify that he was truly a prophet?

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

He was refering to identifying prophets within that time. That is the law that is written in the Torah.

Some commentative rules: Bad prophecies do not have to come true because God may have changed his mind, but Good events prophesized must come true as only those who merited them would recieve them.

 

[yoshiyahu]

The current jews claimed to be following and believing in Prophets whom their ancestors rejected or killed. In this way they were repeating the pattern of rejecting their current Prophet, and allowing their descendents to profess belief in the previous prophet when the next prophet would come. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh was the final prophet and this pattern of rejecting coud not continue.

How is this different than any other nation or people? Every nation and people has its wicked.

 

[yoshiyahu]

Yes I am aware that many (mostly missionaries) try to make this argument, but I am forunate enough to have study the subject in some depth, and therefore can recognize the falsity of their charges.

There is a good book (which i keep recommending ) by M. M. Al-Azami on the compilation of the Qur'an as well as the Old Testament and New Testament. He relies completely on textual proof and it is the definitive response to all charges on the subject.

Ansar, you realize I can basically say the same for the Torah?

 

[yoshiyahu]

He was refering to identifying prophets within that time. That is the law that is written in the Torah.

Some commentative rules: Bad prophecies do not have to come true because God may have changed his mind, but Good events prophesized must come true as only those who merited them would recieve them.

Correct. Also, the ceasing of prophecy is temporary. Elijah the Prophet will return at the appointed time, restore prophecy, and sometime thereafter the Messiah will come.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

How is this different than any other nation or people?

It isn't. Any nation that meets those criteria also applies.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Some commentative rules: Bad prophecies do not have to come true because God may have changed his mind, but Good events prophesized must come true as only those who merited them would recieve them.

mg: !!


Gotta go. I'll post on that later.

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

mg: !!

Is that surprising Al-'Adl? That one can do something that would rouse the anger of God, but could repent to appease him?
Yonah 3:9-10

9. Whoever knows shall repent, and God will relent, and He will return from His burning wrath, and we will not perish.


10. And God saw their deeds, that they had repented of their evil way, and the Lord relented concerning the evil that He had spoken to do to them, and He did not do it.