Disappointment with God

[IAmZamzam]

I said nothing about being forgiving, I only pointed out that one should not speak of a philosophy degree as if it means anything in terms of the quality of argumentation. William Lane Craig has made a whole career out of exploiting that fallacy.* There are perhaps more educated fools in the world than there are unlettered ones--or at least the educated ones are worse--since at least the ignorant are not brainwashed by the biases of their profession's intellectual atmosphere.



* He has a rule that he debates only Ph.D.'s, and while this may be seen as the act of a prima donna it is at least partially a cowardly tactic, a virtual assurance that most of his opponents are professionals at some vaguely connected form of scholasticism yet amateurs at debate and even complex reasoning. All you have to do to get a degree in almost anything is memorize facts out of a book and know how to B.S. your way through essays. Don't forget that George W. Bush got high marks at Yale.

 

[truth finder]

If you want to eat pork, just eat it.

Yes, because it has nothing to do with health, it does not create sinful desire to disgrace God, hurt other human beings or themselves physically, emotionally and spiritually. But if the person is a vegetarian, or has allergy with pork meat, or has a digestion problem with pork, then it is better not to eat it.

If you want to have extranmarital sex, just do it

No No No, because it hurts those involved in the act emotionally and spiritually, and the other innocent spouses emotionally and spiritually

If you want to drink alcohol, just drink it

No for heavy drinking such as getting drunk, Yes for light consumption such as a few glasses of wine during the meal

If you want to have gay sexual acts, just do it.

No No No, because it hurts those involved in the act emotionally and spiritually, and most of all it disgraces God

If you want to dress your daughter in tight bikini and prancing around the malls, just do it

It is strongly discouraged because it could provoke the sexual desire of some weird sick men.

 

[جوري]

All you have to do to get a degree in almost anything is memorize facts out of a book and know how to B.S. your way through essays. Don't forget that George W. Bush got high marks at Yale.

very true.. I'd argue however that to hold a doctorate you'd have to spew some peer reviewed bull for some future B.S hopefuls to memorize and regurgitate back at some point.. I find it unfortunate all together that someone would resort to this:

Blowhard feels the need to present his credentials before entering the fray - even if they are irrelevant to the discussion. For example, in a movie forum conflict he might attempt to settle the matter by saying, "As a Ph. D. candidate in particle physics I believe I can say with some authority that the 'Beavis and Butthead' movie represents the emergence of a new cultural paradigm." Huh?

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as amusing as all this is, I need to make my rounds with Eid greetings and not let that joy be marred by resident trolls whatever form they make take..

 

[IAmZamzam]

very true.. I'd argue however that to hold a doctorate you'd have to spew some peer reviewed bull for some future B.S hopefuls to memorize and regurgitate back at some point..

And we all know that being peer reviewed somehow makes an argument more trustworthy!

Blowhard feels the need to present his credentials before entering the fray - even if they are irrelevant to the discussion. For example, in a movie forum conflict he might attempt to settle the matter by saying, "As a Ph. D. candidate in particle physics I believe I can say with some authority that the 'Beavis and Butthead' movie represents the emergence of a new cultural paradigm." Huh?

There is no need to resort to namecalling. All the same, that kind of thing is not at all unheard of. Just recently Roger Ebert very seriously argued that there is a certain amount of factuality to his opinion about a certain movie, and said that he doesn't mind being a snob because as a man extremely well trained in the art of cinema he is more "qualified" in his opinions than the average person. The same fellow who said that there's nothing wrong with being an elitist. And people still take him seriously as a critic! (In case anyone is wondering, I do agree with him in my dislike of the film in question, Transformers 2: Revenge of the Fallen, but as much as I detest that movie I will sooner choke to death on my own bile than say that I am factually right and the people who enjoy the film are making an objective mistake. I am offended by the cheerful embrace of arrogance and nonsense, not the actual estimation of the movie that said embrace was made over.)

as amusing as all this is, I need to make my rounds with Eid greetings and not let that joy be marred by resident trolls whatever form they make take..

Good advice, and I urge you to heed it more often. Forbearance is a difficult virtue--nobody knows that better than I, it's possibly my greatest moral weakness--but we are commanded to perform it.

 

[truth finder]

Disappointment with God can take various forms. It could be benign such that the person says things which are against God yet continues to believe in God. In extreme forms, the person is so disappointed with the God that he begins to question His existence. This form can lead to agnosticism and atheism.

Disappointment with God (and rejection of His existence) will not change the course of things in life for the person who is disappointed with God. The world and all that within it is fleeting. One feels embittered if one adopts a materialistic point of view. Embittered because everyone else seems to be doing good in their careers ... for example, you mentioned about your PhD and how you felt that you did not get the professorship while others were getting it. Everything seems futile and hatred for people, who are ahead of you, starts seeping in because you start looking at the world through selfish lens because it seems apparently that you are the only figure of loss in this world. In short, disappointment with God is a pathological state for soul and it can be deadly ....

its best to catch it in earlier stages and develop complete dependence on Allah. Since you brought academics in, you should develop a worldview in which you start believing that getting publications in top journals such as Nature etc should not the goal of your life. If you like to contribute to research and human knowledge, it is a worthwhile goal but dont make it the only goal of your life. It will only bring disappointment. In general, kaafirs/non-Muslims are much more involved in dunya and hence they make great scientists, because that is their purpose of life i.e. love for science. I talk from my personal experience with my professors, non-Muslim peers etc. I am not saying that a Muslim believer settles for a second place, no. Not at all. A believer aims for perfection. In everything. His world as well as his hereafter. But the focus on achieving perfection in the world is to be able to attain perfection in hereafter. But in the end, if a believer is not able to attain perfection in dunya in the ways he wanted, for example getting the professor position, he believes that his God has better plans for him.

I really appreciate your thoughtful comment without bullying others as some Muslims readers do it intentionally. I agree with most of your points. But one more point I wish to add to. Believers should not worry too much about the doubt of God or his existence. They should find their own answer through struggles by facing it just like I did in my struggle. The existence of God is so strong that it should defeat any of our doubt and question about him. People need to face it instead of running away from it. Babies who grow up in an incubator will get easily infected and sick, while babies who grow up with germs will stay strong and resistant to them. This is my personal experience.

 

[جوري]

And we all know that being peer reviewed somehow makes an argument more trustworthy!

Not at all.. having a few published papers myself, I know what fudging goes to create a desired set of data as deadlines draw close!

There is no need to resort to namecalling. All the same, that kind of thing is not at all unheard of. Just recently Roger Ebert very seriously argued that there is a certain amount of factuality to his opinion about a certain movie, and said that he doesn't mind being a snob because as a man extremely well trained in the art of cinema he is more "qualified" in his opinions than the average person. The same fellow who said that there's nothing wrong with being an elitist. And people still take him seriously as a critic! (In case anyone is wondering, I do agree with him in my dislike of the film in question, Transformers 2: Revenge of the Fallen, but as much as I detest that movie I will sooner choke to death on my own bile than say that I am factually right and the people who enjoy the film are making an objective mistake. I am offended by the cheerful embrace of arrogance and nonsense, not the actual estimation of the movie that said embrace was made over.)

I am not at all name-calling.. I am not even the one who came up with the cartoons.. they are prototypes of the sort of forum members we tend to have.. I am sure we are all guilty of one or the other..

Good advice, and I urge you to heed it more often. Forbearance is a difficult virtue--nobody knows that better than I, it's possibly my greatest moral weakness--but we are commanded to perform it.

Indeed-- I value my opinion enough to know when forbearance is merited and when something else is..

 

[IAmZamzam]

Forbearance isn't something you can pick and choose. We're supposed to practice it pretty much constantly. Forgiveness is supposed to be the chief virtue, and we are commanded to argue with unbelievers in the fairer manner.

 

[جوري]

we are commanded to argue with unbelievers in the fairer manner.

Tolerance and forbearance by definition is the readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values. Thus in Islam a distinction is made between beliefs and believers. As far as beliefs are concerned there is absolutely no compromise: any belief that contradicts Islam is false, and must be criticized. But those who adhere to such false beliefs are to be tolerated, nicely treated and invited to the truth in the best of ways. I believe I have done that. We can't all practice your methodology and certainly don't start with your baseline for forbearance. I am who I am and you are who you are!

 

[IAmZamzam]

Tolerance and forbearance by definition is the readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values. Thus in Islam a distinction is made between beliefs and believers. As far as beliefs are concerned there is absolutely no compromise: any belief that contradicts Islam is false, and must be criticized. But those who adhere to such false beliefs are to be tolerated, nicely treated and invited to the truth in the best of ways. I believe I have done that.

No, I'm sorry, but you haven't. Not that I always have either, but you hardly ever seem to make a single post that contains anything but obloquy. It's too easy to use the "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing as an excuse for acting extremely unlovingly to the sinner, I know. There's still no getting around the fact of the thing. I think both of us are going to have to try harder from now on. It's not easy to refute the same nonsense for a 900th time and still behave patiently while doing so; it's an obstacle I face every day, and I don't always overcome it. But we have to try, and the first step of overcoming a bad habit is recognizing that you have a problem. Do you suppose the Prophets (P) would have behaved as you do?

 

[جوري]

Do you suppose the Prophets (P) would have behaved as you do?

We are not prophets.. certainly they lead by example and we should follow in their footsteps.. however, even they who were chosen for their best of manners had their moments.
You make the mistake of believing that some of these people expend any effort even reading what you refute. I invite you to look at Hugo's posts for instance, and see how many times he (singularly) posted the same allegations and a thousand times they've been refuted and a thousand times he regroups to re-posts them-- I can simply blame the mods for there should definitely be some infractions given out forum rules against such an act.. I am not sure how they'd define it in a legally binding way-- until such a time it is indeed prudent to hate the verruca as well excise it. I promise to make an effort but to those worthy of such an effort!

 

[IAmZamzam]

The mods could just as well fry you for repeated defamation and direct insulting of various board members. "The most virtuous behavior is to engage those who sever relations, to give to those who withhold from you, and to forgive those who wrong you." I would very much like for us to be permitted to be selective as to who we are forbearant towards based on what we think they deserve, but it's not allowed.

 

[جوري]

The mods could just as well fry you for repeated defamation and direct insulting of various board members.

I welcome that, and have received ample infractions and hopeful that they are equally distributed perhaps one day it will spell the last of folks like Hugo and other rancorous evangelists .. It is worth it in my opinion to speak a word of truth means more to me than to be tolerant although I do think you are carrying this a tad too far and repeatedly (perhaps this strange obsession you have with what I write can be channeled in a few different ways)--
1- you can report it and let some other referee decide what is and what isn't suitable forum content.
2- ignore it and focus your attention to the topic and matter at hand not only enabling others to see the best of your work but saving others from the painstaking task of having to reply to some of these colorful characters.
3- make a thread for about it and purge your thoughts on how you believe each member ought to behave.
I am in a celebratory Eid mood and not a contentious one so I invite you to the third option and let the original course of the topic take place!

 

[Ramadhan]

Yes, because it has nothing to do with health, it does not create sinful desire to disgrace God, hurt other human beings or themselves physically, emotionally and spiritually. But if the person is a vegetarian, or has allergy with pork meat, or has a digestion problem with pork, then it is better not to eat it

So the decision you eat/do something is based on your OWN assumption that it does/not disgrace god, and NOT based whether God allows/disallows you do/est something?

Pork is definitely not allowed in the OT.
Jesus definitely never ate pork.
Jesus never abrogated the law of not eating pork

No No No, because it hurts those involved in the act emotionally and spiritually, and the other innocent spouses emotionally and spiritually

how do you know?
God disallow extra-marital sex, but did he ever mentioned why? Or is that your own assumption?
Again, you made up things and attributed it to God.
extramarital sex is not just adultery between married couples, but pre-marital sex is included.
because most pre-marital sex is between loving couple, so it definitely does not hurt them emotionally and spiritually. And if their whole families approves, they are not hurt either.
Based on your own standards, pre-marital sex must be allowed in christianity.

Again, you decide to do/not do something based on your OWN reasoning, not based on what your GOD allows/disallows.

No No No, because it hurts those involved in the act emotionally and spiritually, and most of all it disgraces God

How do you know that gay sex relations hurt them emotionally and spiritually?
many gays in the western world live in "loving" relationships, many of them get "married" too and approved by their families, and many even got married in CHURCH, officiated by gay pastors/priests/ministers. spiritual, right?

How do you know gay sex relations disgraces god, while eating pork does not disgrace god?
How did you make up your own standards?

Again, christians live their life by their own man-laws not by God-laws, just as warned exactly by Jesus.

It is strongly discouraged because it could provoke the sexual desire of some weird sick men.

so is this why you live your life?
not by God's laws, but by your own (human) reasonings and rationalizations.


It is very true that christians pick and choose what's in their scriptures to suit their whims and desires and "reasonings"
They say all those cumbersome laws were abrogated once jesus died and eat their sins so they don't have to follow those laws which interfere with their preferred lifestyles.

 

[truth finder]

Thanks for your thoughtful comment, which is appreciated greatly. I disagree with your argument that the decision I eat/do something is based on my own assumption. Actually it is based on the greatest biblical principle that supersedes all minor issues! "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbour as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:36-40)

The Bible did not tell me not to watch pornography, but I do not watch it secretly or openly at night or daylight. Why? Because I do not want my love for God to be divided or shared by sinful pleasure of watching obscene images. The Bible did not tell me not to take cocaine, but I do not take it anywhere anytime. Why? Because I do not want my passion for God to be divided or shared by sinful desire of consuming chemicals. These are only a few examples that come to my mind right away. I do not spend much time constantly asking other people or scholars for what is allowed and what is not allowed. Actually this is what my young children do it quite often, "Daddy. Would God be angry with me if I do this? Is that allowed to the eyes of God?" All the points I made in the previous post can be understood based on the greatest biblical principle: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. Love your neighbour as yourself."

 

[Ramadhan]

Thanks for your thoughtful comment, which is appreciated greatly. I disagree with your argument that the decision I eat/do something is based on my own assumption. Actually it is based on the greatest biblical principle that supersedes all minor issues! "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbour as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:36-40)

I dont know about you christians, but for most people, when you love someone, you certainly want to please them.
For example, if you love your parents with all your heart and your soul, that means you would want to obey their wish and you want to please them, and you would want to avoid everything that they ask us not to do.
Just because you claim that you love them, it does not mean that you are allowed to do as you wish, that you are allowed to do things that displease them or the things that they told you not to do.

Unless, of course, if a christian definition of loving someone is only claiming that you love them but without fulfilling their commands.

I can see from your answers and response that for christians, loving their god is only lip service.
Jesus commanded you to worship One God (the Father), and yet you worship tirnity
Jesus never told you that he is god or to worship him, and yet you worship him as god.
Jesus told you not to eat pork and nerver abrogated the law (he came not to change it but to fulfill it) and yet you christians totally destroyed the law and think it is all irrelevant (all those cumbersome dresscode, the law against usury, the circumcision, theregulations on food, etc)

In fact, almost nothing of Jesus' teachings survived christianity, only the name survived.

any sane person would know that the way to love somebody and the expression of loving somebody is to do what they wish and to avoid what they tell us not to do. Not so with christians apparently. As long as they "sing with joy" that they love jesus and that jesus save them, it is not enough apparently.

I give you another analogy:
say you claim you love your wife, and your wife tells you to love her only. But then you have sex with another woman, but yet you still claim you love your wife.
This is what christians are.
Jesus said again and again and again: Your god is one, the god of moses and abraham, do not worship anything/anyone else, do not associate Him with any partner. And do not be idolater.
And yet Christians elevated jesus and holy spirit as God's partners, and they make statues/idols/etc out of jesus, mary etc.
This is how christians "love their god with heart and soul".

The Bible did not tell me not to watch pornography, but I do not watch it secretly or openly at night or daylight. Why? Because I do not want my love for God to be divided or shared by sinful pleasure of watching obscene images.

You sure your bible does not mention anything related to pornography?
Apparently God in the bible is confused whether to allow pornography or not. There are so many passages in the bible that are very explicit in describing sex between strangers, brother and sister, and even father and his two daughters. You don’t need to watch pornography.
On the other hand, there are verses that are CLEARLY against pornography? Let’s see:
Matthew 5:28
But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
1 Corinthians 6:18-20
Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world.
Psalm 119:37
Turn my eyes from looking at worthless things; and give me life in your ways.
Hebrews 13:4
Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.
Galatians 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Job 31:1
“I have made a covenant with my eyes; how then could I gaze at a virgin?
1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.
Clearly, either you have NOT read your own bible or you are a LIAR.
I think we all can guess who you are.

The same goes with ingesting cocaine. I can show you many bible verses that deal with drugs and intoxicants if you want.

Truthfinder, you are just another in the long list of evangelists who lie.

Conclusion: "loving god" means almost nothing to christianity