Discrimination- A disscusion

[Salahudeen]

Salaam I will give you a hadeeth insha allah the prophet PBUH said: There is no prefernce of an arab over a non-arab except with Taqwa, Nor is there a prefernce of a non-arab over an arab except with Taqwa; Same with There is no prefernce of a white over a black Nor is there prefernce of a black over a white except with Taqwa"

I think it is pretty clear that No one should ever think because this guy/girl is european or asian or african or whatever that they will suit them best. Race does not equal compatability.
The man in my point of view is completely mistaken and is looking at things the wrong way. I know that a long time that ive read a hadeeth that said that the Father of Alsayidah Kadijah wanted to reject the prophet PBUH proposal because he was an orphan isnt this prefernce? is it right? No it doesnt make it right all.

In my point of view Prefernce is the number 1 cause of discrimantion and God knows best but , i do acknowledge that is one thing to say to some body - sorry i cant marry you and it is another to say the former and insult them because of something that is out of their hands.

Salaam

I'm aware of the hadith sister however it's irrelevant to my original question because a person can have a certain preference to marry a particular race even though he believes all races are equal. We all agree that every race is equal in the sight of Allah and no race is better, however what's wrong with having a preference to marry a particular race? that's not being racist/discriminating is it?

And in certain circumstances race does equal compatibility, it depends entirely on the individuals involved, so the man is mistaken because he prefers a particular race for his daughter? how have you reached this conclusion that he is mistaken? He doesn't believe other races are better he just prefers a particular race for his daughter, maybe not even his own race, it's just his preference, he doesn't believe any to be better then the other.

You're right it is a preference and some preferences are not right, for example if you have a preference for another race because you believe that race is better then this is wrong preference.

I think it's dangerous to take away people's preferences, because not everybody is the same, some men have preference for fat girl other men have preference for skinny girl, some women have preference for guy who talks a lot, other women have preference for guy who is quiet.

These are all valid preferences aren't they? It's not discrimination if a person has these preferences, similarly I don't believe it's discrimination to have a preference for a certain race or family.

To further elaborate, if you were looking to get married, what type of guy would you look for? the answer to this question would be your preference. You may say piety, however I mean in terms of personality, i.e funny, confident, quiet, shy, talkative, beard, good dress sense, can hold a conversation, good manners, nice hair style, fat, skinny, short hair, long hair, complexion, type of family they come from, their job, their education.

These are all examples of preferences that a person can have, what's wrong with having them?

 

[Flame of Hope]

And in certain circumstances race does equal compatibility, it depends entirely on the individuals involved, so the man is mistaken because he prefers a particular race for his daughter? how have you reached this conclusion that he is mistaken? He doesn't believe other races are better he just prefers a particular race for his daughter, maybe not even his own race, it's just his preference, he doesn't believe any to be better then the other.

Very good point, brother. Parents may not want a person of another race or culture because they may feel it would be difficult to adjust to the differences. It is easier to choose a person who belongs to the same race, speaks the same language and has the same culture. They may be concerned about making things easier for their children and themselves by such a preference.

One can't categorize everything under one blanket. Circumstances are unique from individual to individual. Personalities also differ. People have likes and dislikes. Hence, I don't think there's anything wrong with having preferences... preferring a partner who can cook versus one who can't, for example. A partner who is good-looking versus one who isn't.... one has to live all his life with his partner, so there isn't anything wrong if one desires to marry someone who is pleasing to look at. Preferring a person who has a sense of humor versus one who is always serious and strict. These are all choices.

I guess a preference becomes discriminatory when one begins to assign a position of superiority to it. Like preferring a partner who is white because one believes that whites are the better race...

As long as one does not indulge in such sort of thinking, having preferences is perfectly fine, in my opinion.

 

[May Ayob]

And in certain circumstances race does equal compatibility, it depends entirely on the individuals involved, so the man is mistaken because he prefers a particular race for his daughter? how have you reached this conclusion that he is mistaken? He doesn't believe other races are better he just prefers a particular race for his daughter, maybe not even his own race, it's just his preference, he doesn't believe any to be better then the other.

Salaam brother, Are you sure that race equals compatibility lets say your an arab , and you married a white woman, what would you say if a black man asked the hand of you daughter?
I would want to see your answer cause from what you have written to me it appears that you will reject simply on the basis on his skin color. I am black , I am african and honestly i became very over sensitive over the years when it comes to people and getting their feelings hurt. i would also like to share a story that is in Islamic traditon i read a time ago :
About sayidna Abd ullah ibn Mubarak
He used to work as gardner for a man and this man was a welathy man that had a beautiful daughter , many men from presitigous background have made proposals to her and the man came to consult sayedna Abdullah ibn Mubarak- Father-.
The man asked him whom should he give his daughter to , Sayedna Abdullah ibn Mubarak's father said to him
The Jews used to give their daughters hand in marriage to the Wealthiest.
The Christians used to give their daughters hand in marriage to the most Handsome.
An the Arabs used to give their daughters hand in marriage to the most prestigous tribes.
Now these are all Culture and Society Eh??
But look at what he said - BUT the Prophet PBUH and his companions used to give the hand if their daughters in marriage to the one with best manners and best Deen.
The wise man decided to give Mubarak - The father of sayedna AbdullAllah ibn Mubarak the honor of marrying his one and only beautiful daughter __ This is what Islam says.
It is Not relevant to go and say well prefernces are okay so what i want a rich handosme guy to boast about or i want this stunning looking women. This is not in Islam and that is all that matters there are many verses in the Quran that say Even marry a slave who is abeliver than marry a hansome man / or a woman.

No where brothers and sister did i say that you have to choose the same person No where and if i did then please qoute because i would like to take that back.
You , Me and anybody else fanatasies about you future spouse have no significnace in islam, it is one thing to say that islam says no problem with marrying a person of your prefernce and it is another to go out saying that Islam discourages honorable marriages based on character to protect you own fears. - i hope i made my point clear.

Salaam

 

[Salahudeen]

Salaam brother, Are you sure that race equals compatibility lets say your an arab , and you married a white woman, what would you say if a black man asked the hand of you daughter?
I would want to see your answer cause from what you have written to me it appears that you will reject simply on the basis on his skin color. I am black , I am african and honestly i became very over sensitive over the years when it comes to people and getting their feelings hurt.

Yes I'm sure in certain circumstances race does equal compatibility for example a person who is asian and can only speak urdu isn't exactly compatible with a person who can only speak spanish. Also a person from asian race who is pakistani or indian will have more in common with another pakistani/indian rather then with a white/black/chinese person who isn't Pakistani. If you want examples of things they'd have in common I can give you them.

And cos they have these things in common with each other they'll have a better understanding of each other as they both experienced similar life styles and grew up in similar environments. Their families will have more in common with each other, the in laws will have more in common with the person their daughter/son married if it's same race.

For example some parents can only speak urdu so if their son or daughter married someone from a different race who didn't speak urdu then they wouldn't even be able to communicate with him. Can you imagine the frustration of your daughter/son marrying some 1 you can't even communicate with? what if there arose problems in the marriage you wouldn't even be able to govern affairs because the person doesn't understand you because he's from another race and speaks another language.

The wali might also refuse cos of the fact he can't communicate with the man cos he's from a difference race and doesn't speak the language and as a result can't ascertain what kind of character he has. So he has a preference for someone from the same race to marry his daughter so he can at least communicate with the person and see what kind of person he is etc

I would personally accept the proposal of a black man if he came for my daughter and he was pious, and he could speak urdu I would like my daughter to marry someone who can speak urdu so he can communicate with family members is that haraam?? I imagine he will find it quite uncomfortable at family gatherings when he is the only black person there who can't understand a word being said and people are talking/addressing him and he just looks at them lost while they talk urdu to him. He will probably never want to come to family gatherings ever again and just drop her off and go back home because he can't stand the boredom of sitting and mixing in a room full of people who he doesn't understand.

Also I believe a person similar to my daughter will be more compatible and a person from her own race would be more compatible with her cos of the things they have in common for example growing up in similar environments, having similar parents, enjoying the same food, having families that can communicate with each other cos they speak the same language. Of course I do not look down upon black people or any other race or think of them as inferior, this is just my preference and I have my reasons. Allah will not tell me I'm racist cos I wanted some 1 to marry my daughter who was similar to her in certain aspects.

However if I wanted someone someone similar to marry her because I believed her race was better then this would be racism.

I can't imagine many men letting their daughters marry some 1 who can't even speak with them.

Now all that being said it doesn't mean I am against inter racial marriages or look down upon them, if somebody wants to do this then alhamdulilah there is nothing wrong with it, if they think they will both be compatible its very good however equally you can't label the person who has a preference as racist.Becase he also has his reasons for having such preferences.

I don't think you understood the examples I gave about preferences in the previous post properly, just because a person has a prefrence it doesn't mean they are discriminating/racist as in the examples I gave above show.

I think it really depends on each situation and to apply a generalization and say all people who have preferences are discriminating/racist is not correct because every situation is unique and has different factors that need to be taken into account.

For example in another situation there could be another pakistani family who have all forgotten their language and only speak english, this family probably wouldn't mind having someone from a different race who can't speak urdu cos it makes no difference.

But saying that, I know of families where inter racial marriages did occur and there was a language barrier and the in laws had nothing in common with their son in law and could not speak with him however they didn't mind as long as he took care of their daughter properly so again it all depends on the individuals involved and how they are and what they think would be a compatible match for their daughter/son it's impossible to apply a general ruling to every situation that arises because every situation is unique and varies according to the people involved and their reasons for the views they hold.

 

[Who Am I?]

Salahudeen brings up some good points about language barriers and communication. There is nothing racist about anything you said, brother. It makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Flame of Hope]

I think it really depends on each situation and to apply a generalization and say all people who have preferences are discriminating/racist is not correct because every situation is unique and has different factors that need to be taken into account.

Good observations....

I've never liked generalizations. I think it's unfair to generalize.

 

[Salahudeen]

Good observations....

I've never liked generalizations. I think it's unfair to generalize.

I think people apply generalizations to people with preferences when the preference they have goes against them. For example a woman might have a preference for a man who is slim and not overweight, so she discards a proposal from every man who is overweight, as a result of this preference she has, every over weight person will say "man that girl is shallow all she cares about is weight" so the generalization is all people who have a preference for a certain body type are labelled as shallow by all the people who are over weight and can't meet that preference. And this is true as well, if you say I don't want an over weight person, the person who is over weight will say "you're shallow" because unfortunately he is often the victim of this preference that people have so he has to justify to himself that there's something wrong with people who have this desire when in actual fact there's nothing wrong with not wanting some 1 who is over weight.

When people have preferences that we can't meet we feel hurt and feel the need to label them as something.

 

[Flame of Hope]

I think people apply generalizations to people with preferences when the preference they have goes against them. For example a woman might have a preference for a man who is slim and not overweight, so she discards a proposal from every man who is overweight, as a result of this preference she has, every over weight person will say "man that girl is shallow all she cares about his weight" so the generalization is all people who have a preference for a certain body type are labelled as shallow by all the people who are over weight and can't meet that preference.

When people have preferences that we can't meet we feel hurt and feel the need to label them as something.

I like your observations. There is much wisdom and truth in what you say. Alhamdulillah!

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

I would say parent who have particular “preference” to a particular race or colour is a racist.

They should care about the person character and whether or not they can communicate with that person. Race or colour should not be issue because they are not the one that will spend rest of their lives with that person! They are not the one that sleeps in the same bed as that person! They are not the ones that will have children with that person!

These so called preferences are the very reason why so many revert brothers and sisters cannot find a wife or husband especially true for white brothers and black sisters.

Only the sister or the brother who will marry that person should have the ones to have preferences of colour or race because it may link to attraction!

What if parents have preference for their daughter to marry within their family only? Is that acceptable? No it is not! So for a parent to have preferences of race or colour is not acceptable under any circumstances. The only acceptable reason I can find is communication other than that there is none! Let gets this straight, I know parents that can communicate with that person but yet they think it is acceptable to refuse them because of their race or colour!

If this so called preference from parents is acceptable then why is that a sister can change her wali under Islamic law if they refused the person for non valid reason? Colour and race unless it links to communication is a non valid reason.

Yet in advise and support section or family section, we tell our brothers and sisters who were refused or their potential were refused for something they have no choice in (colour/race), we tell them it is wrong and it shouldn’t happen? Then, is it not wrong for parents to have particular preference of colour or race?

So unless it is do with communication, under any other circumstance it is wrong for parent to have preferences of race or colour! That is down to their sons or daughter. I know read experience from a white brother in another forum (ummah) about how he used get hugs and salams from Somali brothers. So he wanted to marry one Somali sister and she asked her parents. One day, those so called Muslim brothers had a ‘family meeting’ and told that girl that they would rather have her marry a drunken Somali then white brother! The sister told him she cannot marry him. These so called ‘Muslims’ still have the audacity to give the same brother they refused hugs and salams! They are hypocrites! Preferences have been used way too many times to discriminate against reverts and other Muslims.

We are hypocrites, saying salaam to white, black brothers and sisters yet some of you would rather see yourself drop dead then to have your daughter or family member marry them!

Fine! If you think it okay for parents to have these preferences other than language and use them as a justification to refuse potential for their daughters. Then don’t say Salam to these brothers and sisters because that it what hurts them the most, your hypocrisy and two faced attitude!

As for having similar background? Huh? Even if that person is brought up in the same tribe as me, he will still have completely different upbringing and outlook because our parents are not the same. This argument is used from racist parents and it is weak as hell.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Funny how people from Indian subcontinent complain about their mistreatment in Saudi Arabia or any other Arab countries but they have the audacity to treat blacks or people with darker skin then them as a piece of dirt. They would rather run around naked then to have a black person in their family. The same people don’t mind having their male relative marry a white sister but rather kill themselves then to see their female relative marry a white brother. Of course it is not all but some people. I find it amusing.

Imagine how the white brother feel when the day he reverted, all those men were pleased and hugging him etc. But to find later on, these same men who were hugging would never let him marry their daughter and would rather have non practicing person from the same background!


I would love us to show our true faces to reverts and other muslims before we hurt them like that.

 

[Who Am I?]

As a white brother myself, I find that... disturbing.

But then I don't plan to marry anytime soon. I have enough problems to worry about and I can't ask any sister to share them.

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Thanks for the discussion very interesting

Discrimination and prejudice comes in many subtle and not so subtle forms.

Heres a famous sketch, its quite funny but is also making a point about (in this case) cultural prejudices.

Go For an English - Goodness Gracious Me

 

[Salahudeen]

I think we should differentiate between people who have a preference because they believe their race is better and people who have a preference for other reasons.

Racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior

If a person doesn't believe the above are they still classed as racist even though they believe all are equal and none is better? but they have preferences. That's the core of the issue I think.

If a person believes all are equal before God in his heart, but has a preference is he racist? Even though in his heart he has no hatred towards any race or thinks of them as inferior. Is he classed as racist because of his preference regardless of what he believes in his heart?

 

[al yunan]

I would personally accept the proposal of a black man if he came for my daughter and he was pious, and he could speak urdu I would like my daughter to marry someone who can speak urdu so he can communicate with family members is that haraam?? {/quote]

Salam Brother S,

I'm afraid I have bad news for you, You are a Racist and just don't know it yet.
Do you really think there is a difference between a nationalist and a racist apart from a few inches in Hell ?
Read back your own words as if they where from an ethnic German or an Spaniard.
Now ?
What Islam calls "Asabiya" and the west "Ism" are not quite the same, by western values you may be on the edge, as for Islam you're gone !
May I also inquire as to why you could not reply the sister May Ayob's Salam ?
Twice ?
This post is by no means any more personal than it could be should you find it necessary to hurt the sister's feelings again.
I would love to compare your perspective country's Islamic history, yours vs hers!
I would most Highly recommend you apologise to the sister and to Allah S.W.T and change your ways.

Masalam

 

[Salahudeen]

I would personally accept the proposal of a black man if he came for my daughter and he was pious, and he could speak urdu I would like my daughter to marry someone who can speak urdu so he can communicate with family members is that haraam?? {/quote]

Salam Brother S,

I'm afraid I have bad news for you, You are a Racist and just don't know it yet.
Do you really think there is a difference between a nationalist and a racist apart from a few inches in Hell ?
Read back your own words as if they where from an ethnic German or an Spaniard.
Now ?
What Islam calls "Asabiya" and the west "Ism" are not quite the same, by western values you may be on the edge, as for Islam you're gone !
May I also inquire as to why you could not reply the sister May Ayob's Salam ?
Twice ?
This post is by no means any more personal than it could be should you find it necessary to hurt the sister's feelings again.
I would love to compare your perspective country's Islamic history, yours vs hers!
I would most Highly recommend you apologise to the sister and to Allah S.W.T and change your ways.

Masalam

On what basis do you say I'm racist? when did I say I believe, my race is superior or better than anyone elses? Isn't that racism? I don't believe that, so how am I racist?

what exactly did I say that was so hurtful and warrents an apology? what shall I apologize for? believing someone isn't racist if they believe all are equal but have preferences due to reasons we might not be aware of? And what's all this about comparing country's Islamic history? what has that got to do with anything? I didn't reply to her salam because I didn't see it.

I've read back my posts, as an ethnic Spaniard and German, what's your point? I'm not promoting nationalism or saying inter racial marriages are a bad thing, I'm saying every situation is unique and we can't judge every person with a preference as racist because we don't know his reasons. Just as I gave the example of why I'd have a preference for a person of my own nationality, so that they would be able to communicate with my family and as a result, I believe be more compatible with me, what's wrong with that? Is that racist according to you? Having a preference for someone who speaks the same language as your family?

I'd appreciate it if you showed me where I was racist, I don't recall saying any race is superior to another, in case you misunderstood me, I meant there may be understandable reasons as to why people don't want to marry outside their own race, the language/culture issue being one of them. Now what is racist about that? did I at all say asian pakistani's are superior to black people? Nope, I simply raised the issue of compatibility in certain area's, the same issue might exist for a black person, he might refuse asian Pakistani/indian people because they can't communicate with his family etc and it's his preference that the person he marries can communicate with his family so he disregards proposals from all asian Pakistani/indian people due to this preference he has.

If you think that is Racism then I think somewhere along the line you have misunderstood the meaning of the word.

I just noticed you quoted a sentence of mine, are you claiming what I said in that quote is racist? If so what is racist about it? he learn urdu I accept, he don't know urdu I refuse, it so happens that many black people don't know urdu so they'd have communication problems with my family so therefore it's my preference to accept people who speak urdu who happen to be mostly asian pakistani or indian.

I think you're completely missing the point and are quick to label and this is exactly the point I was making earlier, you see the reason of refusal was because the people from that race don't speak the same language so as a result I would refuse, and the issue being the fact they don't speak the same language, not their race or colour, but you, quickly jumped and labelled me as racist.

Similarly an Arab might refuse a non Arab because they have a preference for someone who can speak Arabic and communicate with their family, this doesn't mean they are racist, rather it's an issue of incompatibility in a certain area due to the person being from a different race. Of course if he knew Arabic then the Arab would happily marry etc because their compatibility would increase then.



waslaam.

 

[May Ayob]

Salam Brother S, I'm afraid I have bad news for you, You are a Racist and just don't know it yet. Do you really think there is a difference between a nationalist and a racist apart from a few inches in Hell ? Read back your own words as if they where from an ethnic German or an Spaniard. Now ? What Islam calls "Asabiya" and the west "Ism" are not quite the same, by western values you may be on the edge, as for Islam you're gone ! May I also inquire as to why you could not reply the sister May Ayob's Salam ? Twice ? This post is by no means any more personal than it could be should you find it necessary to hurt the sister's feelings again. I would love to compare your perspective country's Islamic history, yours vs hers! I would most Highly recommend you apologise to the sister and to Allah S.W.T and change your ways. Masalam

Salaam
Thank you brother al yunan , i appreciate what you said.
Jazak Allahu khairain , atleast someone here understands what i was trying to say.
Salaam

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Salaam
Thank you brother al yunan , i appreciate what you said.
Jazak Allahu khairain , atleast someone here understands what i was trying to say.
Salaam

Sorry sister. I agree with you. I only accept parent rejecting a person if there is no way they can communicate with that person. Hence if they (parents not other family members) cant speak a word of English or common language with that person. Even so, I believe there is always a way peoeple can communicate. Other than that, I think others who can communicate but still reject are racist.

 

[Flame of Hope]

If you think that is Racism then I think somewhere along the line you have misunderstood the meaning of the word.

Yes, brother Salahudeen. That's what it all is. A complete misunderstanding. I've misunderstood brother al yunan several times too. lol.

His English isn't very good. If he really understood your posts, I don't think he would have said the things he did. So just overlook and forgive.

You are not at all a racist..... and the points you have raised are very interesting, thought-provoking, something to think about and have added more spice to this discussion. You don't owe anyone any apology.

 

[Salahudeen]

It seems I have been labelled racist and no one has pointed out exactly what I said that was racist, am I not deserving to be notified of my error? If I hold a racist view I'd like to know so I can correct it. JazakAllah khair

 

[Flame of Hope]

You are a Racist and just don't know it yet.

I don't think it's fair to accuse brother Salahudeen of being a racist. It's tantamount to passing judgement and being quick to jump to conclusions. Have you forgotten that you ought to look for excuses for your brothers in faith and to think the best of them?

I'm dismayed to hear you criticize him the way you did.

If you have nothing good to say, better not say anything at all.