discussion on the Trinity doctrine

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Idris

Idris

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I think it would be safe to say that many Christians who accept the doctrine of the Trinity, also remain confused and even those who have a deeper understanding of it, will admit that they do not understand it completely when challenged. The normal answer is that the Trinity is hard to understand because God is beyond our thinking.

I have also found out that a lot of people believe in 2 types of Trinity Doctrine. Some believe that God is one being that shows himself in 3 different ways like water shows itself in the form of ice, steam and liquid, others believe that the Trinity is made up of 3 distinct personalities and these 3 are in complete unity in love and purpose. This last explanation is probably the most common.

Now I guess is a good time to explain the Trinity doctrine( IF I can ).:X

The Trinity basically says that there is one God.
The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.
Hence God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
These three are one God. Each is co-equal and co-eternal.
God is described as a class or family, made up of the three personalities already mentioned.

This ancient diagram explains the Trinity quite well.

trinity.png
 
Idris said:
Some believe that God is one being that shows himself in 3 different ways like water shows itself in the form of ice, steam and liquid
Click to expand...
this theory is called "modalism" and was long, long, long ago declared heresy. But is often used to translate Trinity in more simple way ;)

apart from that -Idris: <clap, clap> simply great, and thx for posting :)
n.
 
Idris jus wondering, if you understand them to be co-equal does this mean that noone is of a higher status than the other, Like Father not of Son nor Son of Spirit and so on.

And jus wonderin if they all are kinda eternal as said why is one called son, i mean it indicates that he has had a beggining.

Thank you for your post and please be patient with me.
 
Idris said:
others believe that the Trinity is made up of 3 distinct personalities and these 3 are in complete unity in love and purpose. This last explanation is probably the most common.
Click to expand...

:sl:

Why does God even need to be in three parts? Whats the point? Is a God who is just plain one incapable of being perfect, so we need to split him into three parts in make him perfect?:? Its just so counterintuitive, makes no sense at all. :rollseyes
 
Have you ever been confused by the following scriptures.

1 John 4:12 (English-NIV)
No one has ever seen God; ....
Or

1 Timothy 1:17 (English-NIV)
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.
Or

1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

What does it imply that no one has seen God. Haven’t countless people seen Jesus who is suppose to be God incarnate?
This does seem confusing but the word "God" in these verses are of course referring to the Father as the following scriptures will prove.

John 6:46 (English-NIV)
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

John 1:18 (English-KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 5:37 (English-NIV)
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.

So it is obvious that no one can see God, but only his son can reveal him to us.

This next scripture would have to be one of the most ignored verses in the Bible, because it does not fit in with most peoples theology.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live


You cannot make this scripture say anything else without misquoting it. It is very straight forward and to the point. The amazing thing about this scripture is the fact that it is not isolated.
J
ames 2:19 (English-NIV)
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder.

John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Again we see that the only True God is the Father, and Jesus Christ was sent by the only True God. Again you cannot make this scripture say anything else, it is self explanatory. John said that this truth is eternal life.

1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
The Head of Christ is God.

This scripture shows a completely different structure or pattern from the Trinity. The word head in the Greek is the word "kephale" which literally means 'from', 'source' or 'position of authority'.
If God were a Trinity, how do you explain that the head of Christ is God. We know that Jesus is the Christ, but so far the scriptures seem to say that God is the head of Jesus. Is the Father the one and only God? Is the Father above all, even Christ?
 
Im realy confused, is Idris provin or disprovin Trinity in the BIble?
 
IsaAbdullah said:
Idris jus wondering, if you understand them to be co-equal does this mean that noone is of a higher status than the other, Like Father not of Son nor Son of Spirit and so on.

And jus wonderin if they all are kinda eternal as said why is one called son, i mean it indicates that he has had a beggining.

Thank you for your post and please be patient with me.
Click to expand...


Err I am not Christian but from a From a Christian view he/she thinks so.
and same to cheese too ask a Christian
 
Thanks Idris.

You know, it is difficult to explain the concept of the trinity - especially to those who consider it to be in conflict with monotheism.
I will make sure to link any future queries with regards to the trinity to your post. :)

peace.
 
IsaAbdullah said:
Im realy confused, is Idris provin or disprovin Trinity in the BIble?
Click to expand...
He is doing neither.
He is merely explaining it.
It's actually nice to hear a Muslim explain it - perhaps it makes it clearer to other Muslims.

I don't think Idris is trying to turn people away from Islam here ... :thankyou:

peace.
 
cheese said:
:sl:

Why does God even need to be in three parts? Whats the point? Is a God who is just plain one incapable of being perfect, so we need to split him into three parts in make him perfect?:? Its just so counterintuitive, makes no sense at all. :rollseyes
Click to expand...
Hi cheese

That seems like very strange questions to me indeed.
I mean, it's like asking 'What's the point in God?' or 'Why does God do what he does?' or 'Why is God at all?'

God is God, he always has been and forever will be. He is how he is - even if we don't think it makes sense.
Is to question God in such a way not equivalent to trying to put yourself above God??
Surely that's not what Islam teaches?

Christians didn't invent the trinity, or thought it was a funky new way to look at God, or they wanted to 'be different' - they believe that's how God is!

Peace.:thankyou:
 
:sl:

I think my brother Idris is just stating the belif of the Christains regarding the Trinity.


I believe the real question is this:X

Idris said:
Have you ever been confused by the following scriptures.
1 John 4:12 (English-NIV)
No one has ever seen God; ....
Or

1 Timothy 1:17 (English-NIV)
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.
Or

1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

What does it imply that no one has seen God. Haven’t countless people seen Jesus who is suppose to be God incarnate?
This does seem confusing but the word "God" in these verses are of course referring to the Father as the following scriptures will prove.

John 6:46 (English-NIV)
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

John 1:18 (English-KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 5:37 (English-NIV)
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.

So it is obvious that no one can see God, but only his son can reveal him to us.

This next scripture would have to be one of the most ignored verses in the Bible, because it does not fit in with most peoples theology.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live


You cannot make this scripture say anything else without misquoting it. It is very straight forward and to the point. The amazing thing about this scripture is the fact that it is not isolated.
J
ames 2:19 (English-NIV)
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder.

John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Again we see that the only True God is the Father, and Jesus Christ was sent by the only True God. Again you cannot make this scripture say anything else, it is self explanatory. John said that this truth is eternal life.

1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
The Head of Christ is God.

This scripture shows a completely different structure or pattern from the Trinity. The word head in the Greek is the word "kephale" which literally means 'from', 'source' or 'position of authority'.
If God were a Trinity, how do you explain that the head of Christ is God. We know that Jesus is the Christ, but so far the scriptures seem to say that God is the head of Jesus. Is the Father the one and only God? Is the Father above all, even Christ?
Click to expand...

Insha Allah (God-Willing) it would be good if some of the christain members can refer to the above quotes and explain it...:rollseyes
 
great post by brother Idris (second one) that shows that the christian doctrine is not the trinity, but that god is one. I always wondered why there isn't a single unambigious statement referring to the trinity in the bible, and yet christians believe in it, aren't christians suppose to follow the Bible :rollseyes
 
In the name of Allah most gracious most merciful

"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant."
( Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #82)

:sl:

Greetings to all non - muslims

Just wanted to comment on that trinity diagram

The trinity diagram is not logical

The diagram is described:

Father = God
Son = God
Holy Spirit = God

At the same time

Father does not = son
Father does not = Holy Spirit
Son does not = Holy sprit

And we know from the laws of logic

If A = B, B = C then A = C

Therefore
If Father = God and Son = God then Son also ought to = Father but the diagram doesn’t agree (Son does not = father), hence not logical.

:w:
take care:)
 
akr4m said:
...hence not logical
Click to expand...


TO: akr4m
In the name of Allah most gracious most merciful.

Agreed that it is not logical. And it remains the Christain belief.

But then faith is never logical!
 
glo said:
Hi cheese

That seems like very strange questions to me indeed.
I mean, it's like asking 'What's the point in God?' or 'Why does God do what he does?' or 'Why is God at all?'

God is God, he always has been and forever will be. He is how he is - even if we don't think it makes sense.
Is to question God in such a way not equivalent to trying to put yourself above God??
Surely that's not what Islam teaches?

Christians didn't invent the trinity, or thought it was a funky new way to look at God, or they wanted to 'be different' - they believe that's how God is!

Peace.:thankyou:
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply Glo.

I personally dont understand why you think its a strange question. I just find it logical that the perfect 'being'- God, who created everything in existence from nothing, is not in need of having to be in three parts. If he is indeed perfect and capable of doing all the things i believe that he is able to, then it only makes sense that such a superior being would only need to be in one part, why three?

Isnt there an implication that if God is in three parts all the parts are dependent on each other, meaning that each part alone is incomplete and that God can only be complete if he is all three parts together, which further implies that one part of God alone is incapable of being fully functional...

I understand that there are somethings about God what we just have to accept- like how he can be paying attention to a million things instantaneously, or how he can be uncreated. We have to accept these things becuase they are out side our scope of understanding. But i personally dont think that the 'oneness' of God falls in to such a catergory.

I think we can both agree that there is one God- as this is something that both christianity and Islam teach- yet christians takes it further to claim that the one God is in three parts. But what is the point of that? If the one God is perfect already why on earth would this God need to be split in to three toperform the function that One perfect God with out parts is capable of performing?

I hope you understand where im coming from Glo. :)
Take care
 
cheese said:
to claim that the one God is in three parts. But what is the point of that?
Click to expand...


It goes to the heart of Christianity.

Jesus had a mother, Mary and a father, God

Jesues and God are one in the same.

Jesus is God and God is Jesus. They are 2 and yet they are 1.

Add to this the Holy Spirit who is all around us.

The Christain belief of the Holy Trinity and the Christain belief that God is the father of Jesus are one belief.

The 2 beliefs cannot be separated.
 

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