discussion on the Trinity doctrine

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Zohair, AL-Muminah - I'll try to answer Your questions. BUT i have no time till wednesday
so be patient, don't spoil anything, and listen to Joe ;)
n.
 
cheese said:
I think we can both agree that there is one God- as this is something that both christianity and Islam teach- yet christians takes it further to claim that the one God is in three parts. But what is the point of that? If the one God is perfect already why on earth would this God need to be split in to three toperform the function that One perfect God with out parts is capable of performing?
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Hi cheese

I already answered that question as best I could. :)
I hope you understand where im coming from Glo. :)
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What I understand is that Muslims strongly condemn the idea of the trinity, because the Qur'an says so, and because they see it to be polytheism.
What I also understand it that Christians try to explain the trinity to make people understand that Christians believe in one God

I know it is an important dedate between the two religions, but the rift seems so wide, it is almost pointless to enter into a discussion.

Muslims are so clear that they should make no image of God whatsoever - so why reject the Christian view so strongly?

I came across a good quote, which seems to support my previously expressed view of 'God is God, he always has been and forever will be. He is how he is - even if we don't think it makes sense.':

Only God knows God (al-Junayd)
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Peace.
 
I guess its a matter of faith for you isnt it? :) i understand.

I dont view christians as politheist as they dont believe they are that themselves but i do think it comes close to it, but isnt quite there since there is the acknowledgement that God is one.

Muslims are so clear that they should make no image of God whatsoever - so why reject the Christian view so strongly?
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We have already been told in the Quran that God is one and that he doesnt have a son and that Jesus was a prophet, not God. Thats why we reject the idea.

:thankyou:
 
glo said:
Hi cheese

I already answered that question as best I could. :)


What I understand is that Muslims strongly condemn the idea of the trinity, because the Qur'an says so, and because they see it to be polytheism.
What I also understand it that Christians try to explain the trinity to make people understand that Christians believe in one God

I know it is an important dedate between the two religions, but the rift seems so wide, it is almost pointless to enter into a discussion.

Muslims are so clear that they should make no image of God whatsoever - so why reject the Christian view so strongly?

I came across a good quote, which seems to support my previously expressed view of 'God is God, he always has been and forever will be. He is how he is - even if we don't think it makes sense.':



Peace.
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Glo, First I want to commend you on your effort to explain the concept of Trinity in terms of Christian belief. You are doing an admirable job of it.

One of the most difficult things in this world is the attempt to communicate abstract thoughts and concepts without having a tangible base for everybody to relate to. In many ways this is like attempting to convey the concept of art. We all have an idea as to what art is, but it is virtualy impossible to explain it to another person.

One big problem with the idea of the Trinity is that from a scholastic view it appears to be a later inclusion into Christian concepts. Even in the early days of it's description by the Catholic Orthodoxy there was much debate over what it was. The Early Church seems to have first viewed a duality of only the Son and the Father, It was not until after the Nicene Council that the idea of a trilogy including the Holy Spirit came about. Much of the early books that discounted the concept of a Trinity were removed from what was to become the modern Bible. Specificaly these would be the Gospels of Barnabas and the Early Marconite Gospels, along with all the Gnostic books.

I don't want to hijack this thread and go off on a tangent. So I will end this post simply by reiterating that your willingness to explain your belief is appreciated.

I believe at least we can all agree on one thing, your quote from above:

'God is God, he always has been and forever will be. He is how he is - even if we don't think it makes sense.':
 
duskiness said:
Zohair, AL-Muminah - I'll try to answer Your questions. BUT i have no time till wednesday
so be patient, don't spoil anything, and listen to Joe ;)
n.
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They are not my questions but Idris's i just quoted his post. Take your time. I look forward to your answers:)
 
akr4m said:
Just wanted to comment on that trinity diagram

The trinity diagram is not logical

The diagram is described:

Father = God
Son = God
Holy Spirit = God

At the same time

Father does not = son
Father does not = Holy Spirit
Son does not = Holy sprit

And we know from the laws of logic

If A = B, B = C then A = C

Therefore
If Father = God and Son = God then Son also ought to = Father but the diagram doesn’t agree (Son does not = father), hence not logical.

:w:
take care:)
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No one can explain God with simple logic. We all want to simplify God but us talking about God is like one ant talking to another ant about how humans were able to land on the moon. It is all beyond our pea-brained comprehension to understand God. The best we can do is repeat whatever He has revealed of Himself in the Word of God (which, to me, is the Bible; to you is the Qua'ran). With that said, let me say WHY the diagram correctly explains the Trinity, which I believe has been revealed to us by God in the Bible.

The Bible calls the Father "God". The Bible calls the Son "God". And the Bible calls the Holy Spirit "God". But the Bible also teaches that there is only ONE God. So we can't conclude that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are THREE Gods, though each is called "God". If there is only ONE God, then those three somehow have to BE the One God.

So, how can the following be true?

Father does not = Son
Father does not = Holy Spirit
Son does not = Holy Spirit

Because though each are God, each are not each other. That is, the Holy Spirit did not die on the cross for our sins, the Son did. The Son did not send the Father to be the Savior of the world, the Father did. The Father did not descend from heaven on the Day of Pentacost and empower the church to carry the Gospel to the whole world, the Holy Spirit did.

So there is distinction of personages but equality of essence, substance, or nature, as well as unity of purpose and will.

Peace
 
Idris said:
1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
The Head of Christ is God.

This scripture shows a completely different structure or pattern from the Trinity. The word head in the Greek is the word "kephale" which literally means 'from', 'source' or 'position of authority'.
If God were a Trinity, how do you explain that the head of Christ is God. We know that Jesus is the Christ, but so far the scriptures seem to say that God is the head of Jesus. Is the Father the one and only God? Is the Father above all, even Christ?
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According to one lexicon, "head" or the Greek, "kephale," is from the primary "kapto" (in the sense of seizing); the head (as the part most readily taken hold of), literally or figuratively. It is used 76 times in the Greek New Testament, most often for the human head (on top of our shoulders), as in the verses that follow the reference you gave above (1 Cor. 11:3)--verse 4 (twice), verse 5 (twice), and verses 7 and 10 (once each). Jesus is said to be the head of every man here in verse 3, but also the head of the church in Col. 1:18 and Eph. 5:23. Thus, all the church looks to Christ for its life and direction, being in total submission to Him. Without our human head, the body can do nothing. Likewise, without Christ (the Head), the church (the Body), can do nothing. In Colossians 2:10, Christ is called the "Head over every power and authority" (NIV).

Now, as to the relationship between Christ and God (the Father), we see that Christ was in total submission to His Father throughout His earthly ministry and to some extent even now. But remember from what position the pre-incarnate Word lowered Himself to take on the form of a servant, to be obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. His position in heaven was one of equality with the Father but He considered that equality not something to be grasped or held onto, but He emptied Himself, not of His essential Deity but of His position, making Himself of no reputation and taking on the form of a servant or slave for our sakes. Philippians 2:5-11, as rendered in different versions brings all this out:

King James Version:

5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

New American Standard Version:

5. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So what does 1 Cor. 11:3 tell us? That Christ is less than Deity, simply because it says "the head of Christ is God"? It also says "the head of the woman is the man." Is the woman any less human than the man? No, to both questions. This is talking about positions, not essential natures. In the business world, a partnership can be an organization of equals but it can still have a managing partner that the others have selected and agreed to follow the leadership of. No one of the partners is any less a partner, part of the organization, simply because he is submitting to the decisions and authority of the managing partner.

Notice also John 5:22-23:

22. "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
23. in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Notice we are all to honor the Son EVEN AS we honor the Father. Those two words "even as" mean "just like" or "to the same extent that". They are the same in the Greek as in "AS you would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise" (the Golden Rule, at Luke 6:31).

We are all going to stand before Christ, our Judge, some day. All of us will bow and confess that He is LORD to the glory of the Father (Phil 2:11 above). He is SO much more than a mere man or prophet. We may not acknowledge that now, but we will then.

One final verse, Colossians 2:9, which one of the most important verses on this subject:

"For in Christ all the fulness of the Deity lives in bodily form." And that verse was written AFTER His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. So He still has His resurrection body--"in bodily form". Deity in a body! God in a body!

Peace
 
akr4m said:
In the name of Allah most gracious most merciful

Therefore
If Father = God and Son = God then Son also ought to = Father but the diagram doesn’t agree (Son does not = father), hence not logical.

:w:
take care:)
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that's the whole thing about the trinity- it's ILLOGICAL :w:
 
marge1 said:
that's the whole thing about the trinity- it's ILLOGICAL :w:
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- and? we know it :) have You heard about negative theology?
"And don't apply simple logic to Him. You will never understand who He is. If You think You understand then that's no God.
We accept this as mystery (or Mystery- we believers love capital letter )
Trinty humbles our reason befor God." --- quoting myself (hihih...i'm so vain... :) )from " Questions about Christians."
n.
 
duskiness said:
If You think You understand then that's no God.
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That's a really good way of putting it. And so true!

How can God possibly be fully understood by humans?
If man claims to make total sense of God, then his idea of God is possibly man-made ...? :? Food for thought!

peace.
 
glo said:
That's a really good way of putting it. And so true!

How can God possibly be fully understood by humans?
If man claims to make total sense of God, then his idea of God is possibly man-made ...? :? Food for thought!

peace.
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I don't believe in the trinity anyway but you are right in saying that God cannot ever be fully understood by humans and i really feel like rolling my eyes when proud stuck up people demand to fully understand God or else they won't believe.
May Allah help them. Ameen
 
Ayesha Rana said:
I don't believe in the trinity anyway but you are right in saying that God cannot ever be fully understood by humans and i really feel like rolling my eyes when proud stuck up people demand to fully understand God or else they won't believe.
May Allah help them. Ameen
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Thank you, sister. I'm so glad you agree! :statisfie

I feel that God wants our humility, not people shouting 'I know God better than you!'

Blessings.
 
glo said:
Thank you, sister. I'm so glad you agree! :statisfie

I feel that God wants our humility, not people shouting 'I know God better than you!'

Blessings.
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Too right sis. Wev'e gotta keep our heads out of the clouds. Boasting isn't gonna do us any good.
 
I know God cannot be understood fully by humans but why do xians believe that God came in the form of a man-isn't that sort of belittling His position?
 
Sikhs do not believe in any trinity. As Guru Granth Sahib (the Holy Scripture of Sikhs) states - on its first page, first line, and first word, “God is One.”

Jesus did not say that God is a trinity. Christianity is a religion of great diversity. Common human being with no spiritual knowledge came up with the concept of their own, which they called trinity. According to the theory, the trinity is composed of the Holy Spirit, The Father and the son.

The belief in trinity is to consider three to be one and one to be three, which is completely illogical. It is a belief that considers father not to be elder than his son, a son to be equal with his father; and one preceding from both to be equal with both. It is a belief to consider a virgin to be a mother of a son, and that very son of hers to be her maker.

As explained in a previous question that Jesus is not God there is no chance that Jesus can be included in trinity as equal to God.

Jesus himself made it clear that there is only one God and he is the Father. How can a Holy Spirit be considered different from the Father God. God is the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is no other entity but God. So the Father (God) and the Holy Spirit are not two different entities but One, which completely fails the theory of trinity.

In summary the theory of trinity fails completely due to following reasons described in brief above:

1. One cannot be three and three cannot be one. Simple math.
2. Son cannot be equal to the father.
3. Jesus is not God.
4. The Holy Spirit not different from God but is God.

Sikhs believe that God is One and there is no one else like God. According to Sikhism, God is NOT a trinity.

Apology to anyone who might feel offended by disregarding the theory of trinity but we are presenting what is written in the Holy Scripture of Sikhs. We do not mean in any way to disrespect someone and their beliefs.
 
glo said:
Thank you, sister. I'm so glad you agree! :statisfie

I feel that God wants our humility, not people shouting 'I know God better than you!'

Blessings.
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True :)

How can we describe Him? How can we know Him? O Nanak, everyone speaks of Him, each one wiser than the rest. Great is the Master, Great is His Name. Whatever happens is according to His Will. O Nanak, one who claims to know everything shall not be decorated in the world hereafter. || 21 ||

(Guru Nanak)
 

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