Discussion/Questions on Sikhism

[AvarAllahNoor]

Nice. I was probably a beetle in 'previous life' then :rollseyes

Yeah a dung beetle hehe just kidding.

I can't understand Noname5 - One minute he's anti- Sikh, next he's professing his understanding of Sikhism - ???

 

[Qurratul Ayn]

even though you ignored my last post, I'm still going to try 1 more time to do you a favor >Keep Away<
edit:
There are ten Gurus, 9 men + Guru granth = 10,<<< error correction>>> it is 10+1= 11 gurus

It gets slightly confusing now, doesn't it?


Do not upset them in real life, The small museum inside the Golden temple contains a disturbing set of bloody images and tales of vengeance.
It seems that the message the Sikhs like to put out there is “Sikhs are totally trustworthy and honorable, but don’t offend them or their religion, their honor is sacred and will be defended at all costs.”

Many, many stories of people who somehow mistreated or violatedSikh religion and were then killed by a Sikh in revenge Including Indira.half-blown-off faces of brave Sikh warriors in this or that honor battle are propped up, photographed, and displayed in this museum.


This is how they get to be with him
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The Palace of the Lord God is so beautiful. Within it, there are gems, rubies, pearls and flawless diamonds. A fortress of gold surrounds this Source of Nectar. How can I climb up to the Fortress without a ladder? By meditating on the Lord, through the Guru, I am blessed and exalted. The Guru is the Ladder, the Guru is the Boat, and the Guru is the Raft to take me to the Lord’s Name. The Guru is the Boat to carry me across the world-ocean; the Guru is the Sacred Shrine of Pilgrimage, the Guru is the Holy River. If it pleases Him, I bathe in the Pool of Truth, and become radiant and pure."[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](Guru Nanak, Sri Rag, pg. 17)[/FONT]

Peace to all

No My Dear Brother NoName55, I did not ignore your posts in the thread questions/Discussions on Sikhism please don't think of me as ignorant or so as I didn't!! I just wanted to find out because unlike Islam their religion to me seems muddled of different opinions as many Sikhs believe that the Gurus are their Gods and here I found out they do believe in one God.

I was just trying to clear my understanding of Sikhism as I have a Sikh friend and her answers were very different as she told me that she considered the gurus as their gods and then she told me no that they do believe in one God confusing or what? And then AvarAllahNoor wrote that they aren't allowed to wordhip pictures or idols and yet they do as they do have pictures of their gurus and they do (well my friend does) worship them!!! So many misunderstandings and lack of knowledge but AvarAllahNoor cleared them and don't worry I won't post any more questions as I don't need to know anymore, and I'll just stick to learning more and more about Islam

And Jazak'Allah Khair for making me aware that you were trying to do me a favour and I am gratified!

Peace to all

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

"The Palace of the Lord God is so beautiful. Within it, there are gems, rubies, pearls and flawless diamonds. A fortress of gold surrounds this Source of Nectar. How can I climb up to the Fortress without a ladder? By meditating on the Lord, through the Guru, I am blessed and exalted. The Guru is the Ladder, the Guru is the Boat, and the Guru is the Raft to take me to the Lord’s Name. The Guru is the Boat to carry me across the world-ocean; the Guru is the Sacred Shrine of Pilgrimage, the Guru is the Holy River. If it pleases Him, I bathe in the Pool of Truth, and become radiant and pure."(Guru Nanak, Sri Rag, pg. 17)

Note - The Guru referred to here is the GURU GRANTH SAHIB the Divine Revelation of God and not any human. Just so no confusion takes place.

 

[cali dude]

I think you know very well what I'm trying to say I don't need any evidence, I know my Religion. If you have lost your religion, go out and look for it.

No I haven't lost my religion, not at all. I didn't ask you for the evidence. I was simply wondering what kind of evidence you needed from as you said we didn't produce any evidence...

After all, there can only one thing that is the Truth, everything that is not in accordance to it is false. So the same applies to you

Sikhi is the ultimate truth. You are only stuck at the human level, where you are doing good or bad karma. But Sikhi produces saints who are beyond this cycle of karma.

Nice. I was probably a beetle in 'previous life' then :rollseyes

Let's see... How do we generally look at Muslims? A nicer word to use would be clever. So I will leave up to you to decide what animal you could be...

 

[جوري]

Peace to all

No My Dear Brother NoName55, I did not ignore your posts in the thread questions/Discussions on Sikhism please don't think of me as ignorant or so as I didn't!! I just wanted to find out because unlike Islam their religion to me seems muddled of different opinions as many Sikhs believe that the Gurus are their Gods and here I found out they do believe in one God.

I was just trying to clear my understanding of Sikhism as I have a Sikh friend and her answers were very different as she told me that she considered the gurus as their gods and then she told me no that they do believe in one God confusing or what? And then AvarAllahNoor wrote that they aren't allowed to wordhip pictures or idols and yet they do as they do have pictures of their gurus and they do (well my friend does) worship them!!! So many misunderstandings and lack of knowledge but AvarAllahNoor cleared them and don't worry I won't post any more questions as I don't need to know anymore, and I'll just stick to learning more and more about Islam

And Jazak'Allah Khair for making me aware that you were trying to do me a favour and I am gratified!

Peace to all

I too have a Sikh friend and after browsing through the threads here I think I'd rather not learn of her religion at all.... the posts here are affecting me very negatively-- I was trying to learn of her religion to have a better understanding of where she is coming from-- she too has views wildly different from the ones posted here--now I think I'll just keep the religion topics at bay for the sake of the friendship.....

 

[cali dude]

Not really, i was referring to it in the islamic context. Believing in all of God's Messengers who called to the worship of God without associating no partners with Him.

It really doesn't matter what you were referring to. But I am telling you that i am strongly convinced that Islam doesn't produce believers or followers of ultimate truth. Instead Sikhi produces people who practice the ultimate truth...

Is that so? I'm sure illicit intercourse was a taboo some time back, now they're advancing right? Or are they going more backwards and saying humans are simply animals?

The society now has realized that if someone does have sex as long as they are mature enough to have it, it's their business. So when the society leaves it up to their own decision as long as they don't harm others, it's a step forward as it's much better than killing someone for having sex.

But it does go back to the point of marrying minors. Are we just animals or are we supposed to think about what's best for humanity?

The Guru Granth Sahib doesn't define what is wrong or right, its just a vage overlook of their understanding on spirituality like you stated yourself - it has no rulings.

No you are mistaken. Guru Granth Sahib does define everything. Everything that's right/wrong is covered in vices.

 

[جوري]

^^^^^^^ 1-what is your definition of ultimate truth? How can you prove that it is the ultimate truth?

2- Punishment for extramarital is different from pre-marital sex--- if you can get a handle on abortion clinics, STD's, people who bomb the abortion clinics- the economic debt to society caused by these unwanted pregnancies and reportable diseases can you really come and make such a claim that it is "their business" because in fact it is the business of everyone whose life is affected... from the ones that sleep with the diseased not knowing they are diseased-- to the ones who have to handle the economic debt of unregulated and unwanted pregnancies...

3- Lastly the whole term "minor" is something that started with modern psychiatry-- still in many part of the world the age of marriage can be as young as 10 and this is modern day not centuries ago...

 

[- Qatada -]

It really doesn't matter what you were referring to. But I am telling you that i am strongly convinced that Islam doesn't produce believers or followers of ultimate truth. Instead Sikhi produces people who practice the ultimate truth...

Prove it. with evidences, not mere opinions.

The society now has realized that if someone does have sex as long as they are mature enough to have it, it's their business. So when the society leaves it up to their own decision as long as they don't harm others, it's a step forward as it's much better than killing someone for having sex.

But it does go back to the point of marrying minors. Are we just animals or are we supposed to think about what's best for humanity?

Again, prove that someone who has menses/wet dreams is a minor, with evidences. And your morals are from the same society which allows a guy to run away with another guy [in a sexual relationship] and leave his wife alone, helpless with his children. And she doesn't even have the right to justice.

No you are mistaken. Guru Granth Sahib does define everything. Everything that's right/wrong is covered in vices.

Again, prove it.


Thanks in advance.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Haha you two are repetive. Think you should conclude this now because you're not getting anywhere.

Sikhi is a simple religion to follow, but personal opinions should not be taken to be Sikh docrine Abmrosial Sster.

 

[- Qatada -]

I agree Avar ^ opinions are nothing unless backed with proof.

 

[cali dude]

My quote:

It really doesn't matter what you were referring to. But I am telling you that i am strongly convinced that Islam doesn't produce believers or followers of ultimate truth. Instead Sikhi produces people who practice the ultimate truth...

Prove it. with evidences, not mere opinions.

First let's see what the ultimate truth is. Ultimate Truth is nothing but God Himself. In form of right and wrong, the ultimate truth is His law. How do we know that a Muslim could never be believer or followers of ultimate truth? We know that killing someone, unless for self-defense or to protect the helpless, is wrong. But you guys do believe in killing for other reasons than self-defense or to protect the helpless, e.g. killing for leaving Islam and some even believe in killing a non-Muslim calling them "Kafir". Other reason is that there is no room for hatred in spirituality and some of you actually believe that God hates and not only that you have reasons to hate homosexuals because according to your scriptures, it's wrong.

Yes you could say that well even though it has been a practice to kill someone who leaves in Islam but we don't do it. But don't think even believing something that is wrong is a sin in itself?

A Sikh is none of this. Since we are not the level to realize the ultimate truth about God, we humans can only see what makes better sense. Let me ask you this. Does it make better sense to have no vice at all or does it make better sense to have lust and marry 3-4 women if you have lust for them and if you still have lust for someone else, you have no solution for it?

There are other wrongdoings among Muslims today and they are doing them only because somehow they think Islam allows it.

Again, prove that someone who has menses/wet dreams is a minor, with evidences. And your morals are from the same society which allows a guy to run away with another guy [in a sexual relationship] and leave his wife alone, helpless with his children. And she doesn't even have the right to justice.

Once again, marriageability isn't determined by sexuality only but also maturity and ability to take care of family. Maybe you could justify to yourself that she wouldn't have to take care of children and the husband could find servants for her. But children still need the mother more than anybody else.

Also when I asked if you would allow your daughter to marry someone older than you and the answer was that it was "society's norm" anymore. As you see, even you learn something from this society that you didn't learn from Islam.

We have already discussed this. Someone who ends with children gets appropriate alimony in this society.

My quote:

No you are mistaken. Guru Granth Sahib does define everything. Everything that's right/wrong is covered in vices.

and you ask me:

Again, prove it.

Just think about it. If you had no lust, you couldn't do anything sexually to harm anybody and if you had no anger, you couldn't physically harm anybody or spiritually harm yourself. If you didn't have greed, you wouldn't steel. If you didn't have any worldly attachment, you wouldn't have any greed in this world and of course in spiritual world, it releases us from all bonds with people and helps us uniting with God. If you had no ego, you would be humble and wouldn't be hurting people's feelings.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Cali you're talking of 'Brahmgiani' not the average Joe. Only a select few can achieve that gian you're referring to.

The Brahm Giani is the purest of the pure; filth does not stick to water. The Brahm Giani mind is enlightened, like the sky above the earth. To the Brahm Giani, friend and foe are the same. The Brahm Giani has no egotistical pride. The Brahm Giani is the highest of the high. Within his own mind, he is the most humble of all. They alone become Brahm Giani, O Nanak, whom God Himself makes so.

 

[- Qatada -]

Thanks for your reply. Looks like we'll be going all over circles again, but yeah thats upto you. If i find anything relevant - i'll paste an argument from a previous post while clarifiying things which may not have been clear earlier on, inshaa Allaah [God willing.]

First let's see what the ultimate truth is. Ultimate Truth is nothing but God Himself. In form of right and wrong, the ultimate truth is His law. How do we know that a Muslim could never be believer or followers of ultimate truth?

Yes God is the ultimate truth, and the truth is His law, all other ways of life which oppose God's law are wrong - agreed.

We know that killing someone, unless for self-defense or to protect the helpless, is wrong. But you guys do believe in killing for other reasons than self-defense or to protect the helpless, e.g. killing for leaving Islam

The islamic state may apply the punishment of death upon the apostate who declares his/her apostasy public. If they don't declare it public - they don't be killed. If they don't agree with the states laws then they can leave and go elsewhere. Nothing wrong with that.

and some even believe in killing a non-Muslim calling them "Kafir".

..since when does this come into anything? If it's against islaam, doesn't mean what these people do is the right thing:


Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. [Qur'an 2:256]

Other reason is that there is no room for hatred in spirituality and some of you actually believe that God hates and not only that you have reasons to hate homosexuals because according to your scriptures, it's wrong.

If God doesn't like a certain act, the same way God doesn't like the act of rape or fornication - then if God has forbidden homosexuality (which is also backed up with proofs from the jews and christians) - then who's to say that it's not wrong?

Remember you said that God is the truth and His law is the truth? Well we've got quite alot of backup from people of the earlier scriptures who agree with this.

Yes you could say that well even though it has been a practice to kill someone who leaves in Islam but we don't do it. But don't think even believing something that is wrong is a sin in itself?

God's message defines what's wrong and right, and i've stated earlier that the rule for apostasy is if it goes public. Why? Because it becomes a danger to others who are weaker or new to the faith. So if this person doesn't declare it publicly, their still safe - and if they do - then they're going against the rules of the state, so their liable to punishment - the same way anyone is liable to punishment if they go against the laws of that state.

A Sikh is none of this. Since we are not the level to realize the ultimate truth about God, we humans can only see what makes better sense. Let me ask you this. Does it make better sense to have no vice at all or does it make better sense to have lust and marry 3-4 women if you have lust for them and if you still have lust for someone else, you have no solution for it?

Well here we go again, since you guys cant love your wife or have any desire for her anyway - which is part of mans natural desires, then i feel that this is more wrong than to actually get married to women if you can deal fairly and justly between them.

It's much better than leaving many women in society without husbands and allowing them to be sex tools right? If you don't agree with that - then just look where you live and see the media.

There are other wrongdoings among Muslims today and they are doing them only because somehow they think Islam allows it.

Wow? there are wrong doings amongst sikhis too, and i'll tell you that there are alot more practising muslims who actually control their desires than 'next level sikhis.'

Once again, marriageability isn't determined by sexuality only but also maturity and ability to take care of family. Maybe you could justify to yourself that she wouldn't have to take care of children and the husband could find servants for her. But children still need the mother more than anybody else.

She can lookafter them if she wishes, and i've already shown you that she doesn't have to do much in the household anyway, praise be to Allaah.

Also when I asked if you would allow your daughter to marry someone older than you and the answer was that it was "society's norm" anymore. As you see, even you learn something from this society that you didn't learn from Islam.

That's because islaam actually has that freedom praise be to Allaah. So if its the law not to get married at the age of 12 in a specific country - then we don't need to do that do we. Whereas in africa it might be the norms to get married in the early teens, so that's allowed too. Theres no contradiction at all.

We have already discussed this. Someone who ends with children gets appropriate alimony in this society.

So alimony and a little bit of cash is okay? And the spouses feelings don't matter? The time they've spent, and their past can simply be forgotten by just a little bit of cash? So much justice.

Just think about it. If you had no lust, you couldn't do anything sexually to harm anybody

Well if you have lust and you marry, then that actually controls your lust in the permissible way - not marrying at all actually increases the lust and makes one more likely to perform acts of indecency. And you've stated many times before - its only a minority of people who can actually reach that level.

and if you had no anger, you couldn't physically harm anybody or spiritually harm yourself.

Anger is an emotion created by God, we control it in the right ways.


Prophet Mohammad (Peace be upon him) said:

"A strong person is not the person who throws his adversaries to the ground. A strong person is the one who contains himself when he is angry".

If you didn't have greed, you wouldn't steel. If you didn't have any worldly attachment, you wouldn't have any greed in this world and of course in spiritual world

"And eat up not one another's property unjustly, nor give bribery to the rulers that you may knowingly eat up a part of the property of others sinfully."Qur'an (2:18)

, it releases us from all bonds with people and helps us uniting with God. If you had no ego, you would be humble and wouldn't be hurting people's feelings.

The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said:

"The muslim is he from whose tongue and hand a Muslim is safe, and the muhajir [emigrator] he who gives up what Allah has prohibited for him ". (Bukhari, Muslim )

 

[cali dude]

Cali you're talking of 'Brahmgiani' not the average Joe. Only a select few can achieve that gian you're referring to.

The Brahm Giani is the purest of the pure; filth does not stick to water. The Brahm Giani mind is enlightened, like the sky above the earth. To the Brahm Giani, friend and foe are the same. The Brahm Giani has no egotistical pride. The Brahm Giani is the highest of the high. Within his own mind, he is the most humble of all. They alone become Brahm Giani, O Nanak, whom God Himself makes so.

I guess the bottom line is that following Islam, one could never be at Brahmgyani level but following Sikhi at least we can at least try although it can happen only with God's grace.

Islam is more like a constitution of a country. Nobody could ever find God following constitution of a country.

 

[- Qatada -]

I think religion which has its own values and true morals is better than something which depends solely on the country the follower is located in.

This shows that islaam is a whole way of life, and a religion should be that way - otherwise people will fall into the confusion of obedience to their religion or the place they are located in. Especially if there is a contradiction to that law. We know that islaam comes first because it's morals are more superior, praise be to Allaah.

 

[cali dude]

I think religion which has its own values and true morals is better than something which depends solely on the country the follower is located in.

This shows that islaam is a whole way of life, and a religion should be that way - otherwise people will fall into the confusion of obedience to their religion or the place they are located in. Especially if there is a contradiction to that law. We know that islaam comes first because it's morals are more superior, praise be to Allaah.

When you follow Sikhi, there is no country in the world that could find anything immoral in Sikhi, in fact a Sikh is above morality but when you follow Islam, there are quite a few principles that don't even meet the moral standard of even constitutions that exist today and there are a lot of acts you would commit as a Muslim (even true Muslim) that are punishable in today's society, which apparently have been found to be unethical and immoral.

So a Sikh can never go wrong whereas a Muslim can and does. A Sikh doesn't need to follow any laws of the world. The law of Sikhi just happened to be superior to any law in the world.

 

[- Qatada -]

Maybe its because you can twist the 'vices' around and fit them to whatever interpretation you want right? Whereas islaam has guidelines which we follow, yet we have the right to follow culture which doesn't contradict it either.


If islaam was so ethically wrong, you would actually be able to refute the points we've been discussing for 40 pages, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Which means that islaam actually has the right ethics and morals, except they oppose another civilization which actually sprang out from the dark ages through islaam.

At a time when London was a tiny mud-hut village that "could not boast of a single streetlamp" (Digest, 1973, p. 622), in Cordova

"there were half a million inhabitants, living in 113,000 houses. There were 700 mosques and 300 public baths spread throughout the city and its twenty-one suburbs. The streets were paved and lit." (Burke, 1985, p. 38) ​

Muslim Spain and European Culture
​

 

[cali dude]

Maybe its because you can twist the 'vices' around and fit them to whatever interpretation you want right? Whereas islaam has guidelines which we follow, yet we have the right to follow culture which doesn't contradict it either.


If islaam was so ethically wrong, you would actually be able to refute the points we've been discussing for 40 pages, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Which means that islaam actually has the right ethics and morals, except they oppose another civilization which actually sprang out from the dark ages through islaam.

At a time when London was a tiny mud-hut village that "could not boast of a single streetlamp" (Digest, 1973, p. 622), in Cordova

"there were half a million inhabitants, living in 113,000 houses. There were 700 mosques and 300 public baths spread throughout the city and its twenty-one suburbs. The streets were paved and lit." (Burke, 1985, p. 38) ​

Muslim Spain and European Culture
​

Vices don't change as per someone's own interpretation.

To see how ethical and unethical Islam is, simply just ask yourself if you would want to have things done to you what Islam allows you to do to others...

One of them is: just imagine how you would feel if someone older than you came to your house proposing to marry your minor daughter...

 

[جوري]

To be honest I am not sure why you feel so threatened you keep coming up with the same stuff over and over? It isn't convincing anyone it is touching upon confabulation... besides just on your last comment alone...It is the woman who chooses whom she wishes to be enjoined to in marriage not the father....

Al-Khansaa’ bint Khidaam complained to the Prophet that her father wanted her to marry someone she didn’t want, saying “I do not wish to accept what my father has arranged.” The Prophet said, “Then this marriage is invalid, go and marry whomever you wish.” Al-Khansaa’ said, “I have actually accepted what my father has arranged, but I wanted women to know that fathers have no right in their daughter’s matters” (i.e. they have no right to force a marriage on them). (Fath Al-Barî Ibn Hajr, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)

peace!

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

When you follow Sikhi, there is no country in the world that could find anything immoral in Sikhi,

Lol. Sorry but I find this sentence amusing. So if today fornication in the streets became norm, I'm sure Sikhi would accept it ? After all your law is the law of the land you live in. Thus, when a religion is like grass that cannot support itself and it moves with the wind it is no surprise that the ignorant masses who (in my example consider fornication on streets norm) would find anything wrong with it. It's not the society thats conforming with you, its you that's conforming with the society, no matter how low the society gets. A religion has to be a way of life, but as you have stated that your book is merely a book about God not detailing the way to live, and your book does not outline what is correct and what is not, then frankly, its false. You can go tell people how a machine works, but until you teach them how to use it, they will get no where with it. Likewise you can tell people about life, but until they are told the best way to use it, they are not going to get anywhere with it.

in fact a Sikh is above morality but when you follow Islam, there are quite a few principles that don't even meet the moral standard of even constitutions that exist today and there are a lot of acts you would commit as a Muslim (even true Muslim) that are punishable in today's society, which apparently have been found to be unethical and immoral.

That is today's society's perception. You'll find that perception of something differs in the East and in the West. So this actually is a proof against you, then for you since if we were to look at Sikhs in the West, then they are living under different societical norms, and those in the East are under different ones. Thus, there leaves no consistency in your religion, and a religion that isn't consistent and can be bent to fit the society simply cannot be true.

Islam benefits the society it comes to and does not just accept the society, silently approving all the faults within it. Br. Fi provided a quote which you compeltely ignored, because you could not respond to it and you were forced to repeat yourself again. It must be really hard to find faults with the religion when one is forced to repeat themselves so much eh? :rollseyes

So a Sikh can never go wrong whereas a Muslim can and does. A Sikh doesn't need to follow any laws of the world. The law of Sikhi just happened to be superior to any law in the world.

That simply doesn't make sense. Why are you paying your bills then. Call up the company and tell them, your laws don't apply to me because my Sikhi law is superior to yours. That shouldn't be a problem to you since Sikhi is a religion that can go wherever the wind takes it.

Vices don't change as per someone's own interpretation.

To see how ethical and unethical Islam is, simply just ask yourself if you would want to have things done to you what Islam allows you to do to others...

One of them is: just imagine how you would feel if someone older than you came to your house proposing to marry your minor daughter...

And here we go again. It's like you feel that you can 'prove' your religion by bringing up a point that has been refuted a thousand times over. You know what I find amusing about this? This is the same arguement that you have brought up in the past 40 pages. Not only that, its the same arguement that has been brought up against Islam for the years, can't you think of anything new, this is just too boring now :uhwhat