Discussion/Questions on Sikhism

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

I can't even trust a Muslim.......This is because I know that if a Muslim will not be treating a girl young to be his daughter as his daughter as if he got crush on her

-- LOL , here u r .......hate Muslims for doing legal matters .......marriage .


God ordered Muslim men to lower gaze ; so that they don't have any unethical matters ...i.e sex outside marriage.

“Say to the believing men to lower their gazes and guard their chastity,” ( Chapter Light / An-Nur: 30)


U r agaisnt marriage when non-Muslims including Sikhs are enjoying sex outside marriage with dozens partners.



U think , ur daughter is safe with non-Muslims when they can enjoy time with her illegaly & u don't trust Muslim men who are allowed to stay with her only after marriage.......before marriage they are not allowed to even talk to her alone in a room if there is not another person....it's prohibited by the Last Prophet (p).



Also , God warned us to avoid those act that leads to immoral deeds ...i.e . staying with opposite sex alone.

But how does a nine years old kid know whether the marriage is right for her?

----u forgot the parent

also , a 9 years old who had her puberty , brought up in a society where early marriage is/ was very common , marriage was not a surprise for her .



I m 100 % sure that u did not know Mother Aisha ( ra ) was already engaged with another man....i forgot the name .....most probably Zubair. As that person did not embrace Islam , the engagement was broken by her father .



Why u think , if she was immatured , her parent made the engagement ? it's another proof that she was already physically & mentally matured for marriage.

Marrying a nine years old is wrong as she doesn't even understand what marriage is supposed to be all about,

---her parents are there to say yer or no. Why u r so upset about legal marriage & don't protest against the unethical affairs ????

Strange :rollseyes



Thousands & thousands school girls are enjoying the physical pleasure outside the marriage with unlimited partners & u r silent about that .

U r upset about a blessed marriage that took place more than a thousand years ago & that was not a forced marriage , the wife was very happy , she never complained against the marriage.


When God asked the wives of the Prophet (p) if they want to seperate from their husband & they will get earthy wealth , it was the young wife who first answered that: she wants to keep the marriage , after her answer , all wives followed her.

Man-made laws of what country are forcing someone to divorce?

---In USA , UK & other parts of the world , a non-Muslim husband must divorce his sick wife to have a normal life for himself . U think , it's a lust , for other it's a normal desire for a young man to have a normal life . What about his parents ?



Is it a sin for a parent to want that thier son is having a normal family life ? May be , u can live like a bachelor for the rest of ur life but what about ur bro who can't ?

U cant force him to remain as a bachelor .....let him take the decision...........Islam is not forcing him to re-marry . Why are u agaisnt the option that is given to them who don't want to go for adultery ?

Having a second wife is not a sin or adultery regarding the major holy books those have billions & billions followers.


U r not thinking practically.

How about the husband? Does he get rewarded by God or does he get cursed for having multiple sex partners?

-- if commits adultery , he will get punishment if dies without sincere repentance. If he enjoys the pleasure lawfully , he will get reward ...did u know that in Islam , believers will get rewards for that ?

A Sikh is someone who seek the ultimate truth. If he commits immoral acts, he is not a Sikh by character. Maybe he looks like a Sikh.

---If Sikhism is a Spiritiaul matters only & if there is not a fixed Do's & Don'ts to follow , then who will decide which one is moral & which one is immoral ? 15 years age gap between wife & husband may be immoral to u but ur friend may not think like u. So , who is right here ?

Wife burning isn't legal in India and there is no excuse for it either.

---u r avoiding the main point. U can't force a husband to love his wife or stay with her . So , get rid of wife , husbands are burning wives in India as divorce law is very strict there .

A cheater should be punished not rewarded by allowing to have many wives.

---i saw in a site about the wives of Sikh personalities . Even if it's true that ur religion does not allow polygamy , it does not mean that u have a right to say them cheat who have more than one wife regarding their holy books.

If someone doesn't treat someone young enough to be his daughter like his daughter, you want to reward him by letting him marry her. What kind of justice is this?

---- how many times , do i have to say that no one can force a Muslim woman to get married ?????????

Sending proposal is not a sin ..........pl. show me verse from ur holy book that says no one can send marriage proposal to parent of a 9 years old ?
Show me verse that says maximum age gap is ............; if u cant' show these , then pl. stop bashing Islam.



Some participants are taking too much advantage of forum's too liberal laws. Even if ur religion does not permit it , u have no right to say that others cheat if they have more than one wife.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Are u kidding me? You know I used to see girls getting off the elementary school bus dressing like adults? Mini skirts and tops? If they can be mature enough to do such vile things and even have boyfriends, what makes u think they cant get married? I see girls in elementary schools have boyfriends. Gimme a break.

 

[cali dude]

Muslim woman, you ignored my question and all Muslims should think about this.

Would you allow your nine years old daughter to marry a 40 years old man?

Simple question...

 

[cali dude]

Fi_Sabilillah,

As we already know religion doesn't mean the same what it means to me. So, forget about talking about religion.

But I would like to talk about morality.

Yes for you, morality could only be what Islam says.

But let me ask you something, if there were no religion, what would morality mean to you?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

Muslim woman, you ignored my question and all Muslims should think about this.

Would you allow your nine years old daughter to marry a 40 years old man?

Simple question...

yesssssss, if he was Prophet Muhammed (p).

If i had a daughter more than 1000 years ago where young marriage is common , when i know a person who is considered as Al-Ameen --the Turst Worthy since his childhood , who was faithful to his 1st wife , who NEVER did any immoraal acts , whom non-Muslims truested & kept valuable things under his custody rather than thier own men etc , etc ........of course i would be more than happy to accept the proposal


During the time of the Last Prophet (p) , women were considered as less than animals. It's the Islam who gave women the honour of human being.



"Treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."


From the last sermon of Prophet Mohammed (p)


why on earth , i would have objected such a proposal ? I m not mad.

If a man who does not pray , does not fear God sends proposal for my daughter , i will reject......simple answer


May i request non-Muslims participants to know more about the last Prophet (p) ? The following work is done by our revert bro
Yusuf Estes, Former Christian Preacher.....if possible , do visit his site ).


You may be a Christian Protestant, Catholic, Jew, an atheist or an agnostic; or you may belong to any of many different religious denominations existing in today's world. You might even be a coummunist or believe in man's democracy as the rule on earth.



Whoever you are and whatever ideological or political beliefs, social habits you may hold, there is no doubt -

You Must Know This MAN - MUHAMMAD (peace be upon him).

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/muhammad

 

[- Qatada -]

Muslim woman, you ignored my question and all Muslims should think about this.

Would you allow your nine years old daughter to marry a 40 years old man?

Simple question...

Cali, do you know what custom norms are? If it's not in our society today to get married at the direct age when the people become young adults [i.e. menses/wetdreams] - then we simply don't need to do that.


Some modern female authors say:

Puberty is defined as the age or period at which a person is first capable of sexual reproduction, in other eras of history, a rite or celebration of this landmark event was a part of the culture. (Rites of Passage: Puberty, by Sue Curewitz Arthen)


"Getting your period" marks a rite of passage for young girls entering womanhood. (From the Women's Resource Center)


​

Another contemporary reference relating marriage age to puberty is an article on Central Africa, which says:

. . . women marry soon after puberty4.


​

There are many other references which should prove to any intelligent person what anthropologists and historians already know: in centuries past, people were considered ready for marriage when they reached puberty.


It should be mentioned that from an Islamic point of view, many problems in society today can be traced back to the abandonment of early marriage. Due to the way that Almighty God has created man and woman, i.e., with strong sexual desires, people should marry young. In the past, this was even more true since life expectancy was very low (i.e. you were considered "old" if you made it to 40!) Not only does marriage provide a legal outlet for people with strong sexual desires, but it usually produces more children. One of the main purposes of marriage is to produce children -"be fruitful and multiply" as the Bible says (Genesis 8:17). This was especially important in the past, when people did not live as long as they do now and the infant morality rate was much higher.






Additionally, an article entitled Puberty in Girls by an Australian government Public Health organization, says:

The first sign of puberty is usually a surge of growth: you become taller; your breasts develop; hair begins to grow in the pubic area and under the arms. This may start from 10 years to 14 years - even earlier for some and later for others.
​

An article Physical Changes in Girls During Puberty has this to say:

During puberty, a girl's body changes, inside and out, into the body of a woman. The changes don't come all at once, and they don't happen at the same time for everybody. Most girls start showing physical changes around age 11, but everyone has her own internal schedule for development. It's normal for changes to start as early as 8 or 9 years of age, or not until 13 or 14. Even if nothing looks or feels different yet, the changes may have already begun inside your body.


​

Many will readily agree with the information above, but still might harbour reservations about whether a marriage to an older man could be happy for such a young girl. Putting aside the modern Western notions of "happiness" for a moment, the marriage of cAishah and the Prophet(P) was a mutually happy and loving one as in expressed in numerous hadîth and seerah books. That happy marriages occur between people with a fairly large difference in ages is known among psychologists:

When the differences (in ages) is great, e.g. exceeds fifteen to twenty years, the results may be happier. The marriage of an elderly (senescent) not, of course, an old (senile) man to a quite young girl, is often very successful and harmonious. The bride is immediately introduced and accustomed to moderate sexual intercourse. 7


​

In his comments on the ahadith in Sahîh Muslim which mention cAishah's young marriage to the Prophet(P), cAbdul-Hamîd Siddiqî shows three other reasons for this marriage:
cAishah's marriage to the Prophet Muhammad(P) at an early age allowed her to be an eyewitness to the personal details of his life and carry them on to the succeeding generations. By being both spiritually and physically near to the Prophet(P), the marriage prepared 'Aishah to be an example to all Muslims, especially women, for all times. She developed into a spiritual teacher and scholar, since she was remarkably intelligent and wise. Her qualities help support the Prophet's work and further the cause of Islam. cAishah, the Mother of the Believers, was not only a model for wives and mothers, but she was also a commentator on the Qur'ân, an authority on hadîth and knowledgeable in Islamic Law. She narrated at least 2,210 ahâdîth that give Muslims valuable insights into the Final Prophet's daily life and behaviour, thus preserving the Sunnah of Muhammad(P).

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html




​

 

[- Qatada -]

By the way, Avar, i'll do that from now on inshaa Allaah, no worries.


Cali, i can't think of what morality would be without religion, because we know that the only reason mankind has a certain level of morality is due to the fact that Allaah created us this way - in a state of fitrah [to believe in One God, and to incline to do good, to dislike evil etc.]


If Allaah never created us this way - then we would all probably do any evil without feeling any regret or without anyone having any hatred for it.


That's why as time progresses, our fitrah can be altered by the society around us - so God sends us Messengers with guidance so this guidance can fix up our fitrah once again to how Allaah created us, so we submit (islaam means submission) to Him. Those who submit are successful in this world and the hereafter, whereas those who turn away from the guidance have a hard life in this world, and what is waiting in the hereafter is even worse. We seek refuge in Allaah from that.



Peace.

 

[NoName55]

I have seen in a certain country where they still burn a widow or 2 (despite the laws)
Same country there is an ocasonal child sacrificed in the name of religion (despite the laws)
same country where there are daughters killed before birth, soon after birth (despite the laws)
same country where there is a girl married off at year 5 and less (despite the laws)

now if my original question is not answered or my even earlier request is not honoured, I might stoop to the level of this person and start posting proof articles from their own newspapers, newsreel, and police reports.

I don't want to bring any more profanit than has alread been exibhited by various persons throut this site

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

I'm glad the Mods are openminded enough here to at least debate such thngs and do not succumb to this person above ranting and raving. These Muslims are indeed here to teach and learn. Keep it up LI Mods

We can learn about each others faiths and still be respectful

BTW - I'll be ignoring his abnoxious posts from now on.....

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

So as far as getting your nine years old daughter marrying goes, you wouldn't do this today because of the "society norms".

........

it's the man made laws that prohibit it. 9 years old girl can become mommy but she can't get married by today's law.


Now , in USA , School boys & girls are enjoing oral sex in the bus infront of other students . I saw Oprah talk show about 2 years back. an american reseracher showed how so-called minor girls are enjoying sex.....they go to ' juicy ' party & do the dirty things. Her remarked was like that ' girls have become totally shameless.' Islam prohibits it & gives solutions .


Some Human being believe they know more than God Almighty. So , they have allowed what God forbidden for them i.e. gayism , extra marital affairs etc , forbidden what God allowed i.e. polygamy with conditions , girls who have passed puberty can get married if she wishes etc.


That's the reason we see so many chaos in the earth.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Muslim woman, have you taken survey of nine year olds having oral sex? Maybe you could provide us with some kind of link.

Thank you very much...

Salaam/peace ,


pl. visit archive of Oprah talk show. u will have more info on how little girls are raped by step-dad , step-grand pa , how young boys are becoming victims thorough web camera , how '' little '' girls are lieing to moms & go to juicy parties yakkkkkkkkkkk.

 

[aamirsaab]

Religion is supposed to be the absolute truth. The absolute truth has always been as such from the beginning of the time and will remain so till the end of the time. So, if this were an absolute fact that it was OK to get a nine years girl married to 40 years old man, it wouldn't be wrong today either. But I am so glad that even Muslims are willing to change with "society's norms", at least in certain matters.

Marrying a 9 year old is not a teaching of Islam that muslims have to follow.

Fi_Sabilillah,

How about measuring morality as what benefits the humanity? How about morality as positive and negative influence on humanity, leaving people's personal life aside?

What benefits humanity is less important nowadays, to what benefits the individual. Also, morality is defined by society and so will change throughout time. With religion, morality is stable and never fluctuates - it remains consistent with time: what is wrong today is wrong tomorrow, whereas with society's morales what is wrong today is right tomorrow.

 

[aamirsaab]

So before, it was oral sex and now it's how they are being raped...

So, using your logic, if someone rapes a nine-year-old girl, it's OK to get her married. Does being capable of being raped have anything to do with being capable of getting married?

She never implied that - quit putting words in peoples mouths. You asked and I quote "Muslim woman, have you taken survey of nine year olds having oral sex? Maybe you could provide us with some kind of link" and she replied to that particular question. Perhaps you should quit twisting words to suit your own agenda.


p.s; I just read the thread title...sorry for going off topic.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

So before, it was oral sex and now it's how they are being raped...

So, using your logic, if someone rapes a nine-year-old girl, it's OK to get her married. Does being capable of being raped have anything to do with being capable of getting married?

----some Sikhs are living in a dream world ....they think , all men consider young girls as daughters , all school girls are immatured & know nothing about sex.

That's why i told u to browse Oprah arhcive. U will get the real facts that men don't consider other men's daughters as thier own daughters.

If school girls are that matured to enjoy oral sex in the bus , who are enjoying sex with unlimited partners , then why u r dead against their getting married ?

Islam does not make it compulsory but if needed after puberty parent can arrange marriage of their daughters who are matured enough.


pl. try to understand , young marriage , polygamy ......these are not compulsory in Islam . Allowed if necessary.

 

[- Qatada -]

Cali, thankyou for proving your ignorance.


Why do you always run away from my questions, yet you're so prepared to repeat the same argument over and over again to others?

Did you know, we actually had leniency on you because it seemed as if you really wanted to understand - but it doesn't seem that way now. And you know what, if i delete all your posts which complain and rant over the same thing over and over again, then that isn't abusing my powers. Because all you're doing is ignoring the proofs when they come to you.


So seriosly, repeat that claim once more on Aa'isha and all these posts that you have posted will be deleted which discuss that issue.

Otherwise, prove to me how it's scientifically wrong, religiously wrong [from your own religious sources!], or don't say nothing at all. Like you say, you have different opinions, we have different opinions, and the guy who lives on the corner of the block has different opinions. So an opinion is nothing in this debate.


Thankyou for listening.


Regards.

 

[- Qatada -]

Okay, let's look at what the companion and successor of the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said.

The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said: "The best among you is the one who is best to his wife" (Related by Ibn Hibban) in another version it is the one who is most kind to his wife.


Now look at this:

It is reported that a man came to 'Umar ibn Al-Khattab to complain about his wife's ill-temper. While he was waiting for 'Umar to come out of his house, he heard 'Umar's wife scolding him and 'Umar quietly listening to her, and not answering her back. The man turned around and started walking away, muttering to himself: "If that is the case with 'Umar, the leader of the believers, who is famous for his uprighteness and toughness, then what about poor me?!" At that moment, 'Umar came out of his house and saw the man walking away. He called him and said, "What is it you want of me, O man?" The man replied: "O leader of the believers, I came to complain to you about my wife's bad-temper and how she nags me. Then I heard your wife doing the same to you, so I turned around, muttering to myself, 'If that is the situation of the leader of the believers, then what about me?'" 'Umar replied, "O my brother, I bear with her because of her rights over me. She cooks my food, bakes my bread, washes my clothes, breast-feeds my child...and yet none of these are her duty;* and then she is a comfort to my heart and keeps me away from forbidden deeds. Consequently, I bear with her." The man said, "It is the same with me, O leader of the believers." 'Umar said: "Then, O my brother, be patient with her, indeed this life is short. (Adh-Dhahabi, Al-Kabâ'ir 194)


The last hadith about 'Umar is a beautiful example of the lofty status that Islam has given women. The Khalifa himself used to listen patiently while his wife scolded him and he instructed his followers to likewise be patient and grateful for all the favours their wives gave them. Dr. M. Moinuddin Siddiqui, who has translated Al-Kabâ'ir into english, includes the following footnote in the place I have marked above with an asterisk [*]:

According to the Shari'ah, a Muslim wife has no obligation to do all this; rather, it is the husband's obligation to take care of it [either himself or] by hiring a servant (or even, in the case of breast-feeding, a wet-nurse). Therefore, if a woman does this, it is out of good-will and compliance on her part, not because it is obligatory on her, and consequently it is a cause for appreciation and helpfulness on the part of her husband. (Translator)​

http://www.islamicboard.com/428746-post12.html (Islam Is Sexist?)
​

 

[Qurratul Ayn]

Re: Questions for Sikhs

We are not allowed to worship any idols, images or photographs.

Peace to all

This thread is useful for knowing about Sikhism but I would like to know that if Sikhs aren't allowed to worship images and such, as I've quoted from AvarAllahNoor (what does you username imply by the way?) then how come Sikhs have pictures of the the ten Gurus? Not meaning to write or sound offensive but to me that is like worshipping ten Gods and I have seen pictures and frames of them, then how can you believe in one God?

Peace to all.

 

[Qurratul Ayn]

Okay, let's look at what the companion and successor of the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said.

The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said: "The best among you is the one who is best to his wife" (Related by Ibn Hibban) in another version it is the one who is most kind to his wife.

Now look at this:

It is reported that a man came to 'Umar ibn Al-Khattab to complain about his wife's ill-temper. While he was waiting for 'Umar to come out of his house, he heard 'Umar's wife scolding him and 'Umar quietly listening to her, and not answering her back. The man turned around and started walking away, muttering to himself: "If that is the case with 'Umar, the leader of the believers, who is famous for his uprighteness and toughness, then what about poor me?!" At that moment, 'Umar came out of his house and saw the man walking away. He called him and said, "What is it you want of me, O man?" The man replied: "O leader of the believers, I came to complain to you about my wife's bad-temper and how she nags me. Then I heard your wife doing the same to you, so I turned around, muttering to myself, 'If that is the situation of the leader of the believers, then what about me?'" 'Umar replied, "O my brother, I bear with her because of her rights over me. She cooks my food, bakes my bread, washes my clothes, breast-feeds my child...and yet none of these are her duty;* and then she is a comfort to my heart and keeps me away from forbidden deeds. Consequently, I bear with her." The man said, "It is the same with me, O leader of the believers." 'Umar said: "Then, O my brother, be patient with her, indeed this life is short. (Adh-Dhahabi, Al-Kabâ'ir 194)​

:salamext:

Masha'Allah Ta'ala, great post Brother Fi_Sabilillah, Insha'Allah Ta'ala should clear any douts.

:salamext:

​

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Re: Questions for Sikhs

then how come Sikhs have pictures of the the ten Gurus? Not meaning to write or sound offensive but to me that is like worshipping ten Gods and I have seen pictures and frames of them, then how can you believe in one God?

Peace to all.

Well just as Christians have images of Jesus and Muslims have images if Ali, Sikhs have images of the Gurus. This does not imply that this what the Gurus looked like, it goes back to hindu distortion and how they tried to bring Sikhi under Hinduism but failed. - They are used mainly for educational purposes yet nobody would you see prostrating before one.

My name Means -Allah gave life to all, so whom should we regard as bad, and whom shall we regard as good.

Gur Fateh

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Im guessin ur refferin to shia's but thats a different matter. Do u have proof for that..jus curious. As ive never heard that. Islam is what defines a Muslim, a Muslim does not necessarily define Islam.