DISCUSSION: The Origin of the Universe

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Pygoscelis said:
That we exist is evidence that your statement is untrue. SOMETHING had to always exist be it the universe or whatever (perhaps a God?) caused the universe. By assigning the universe a cause you only force the question of who or what caused that cause.
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so ur saying there is a cause for the existance of the universe (i.e. something kicked it off) or.....?
 
Pygoscelis said:
That is not absurd by definition. It just doesn't resonate with you. Why can't time be infinite? What makes you think it is finite? Your answer sounds to me like the theist who says God clearly exists or the atheist who says God clearly Doesn't. It is a claim without any stated basis.
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Time cant be infinite because according to the second law of thermodynamics, if the universe had existed for an infinite time, then it should have already reached a state of *something* woops i cant remember what the something was...

er anyway the point is the idea of the universe having existed without a begining violates the second law of thermodynamics....
 
Greetings and peace to you all,

I think if you spend a number of sleepless nights trying to come up with an origin for the universe the options end up giving you a headache. Something either had no beginning or something came from nothing, both these possibilities seem to defy logic, reason and science. It is probably easier to understand if nothing existed at all..:uhwhat

We are told that God had no beginning but that explanation is difficult to comprehend.

In the spirit of searching for impossible answers

Eric
 
Good point.

Nobody truly knows the origin of the universe, if there was one. Some decide to have faith and believe in a religious explanation. Others latch onto scientific theories such as evolution.

Why are there so few that will simply say "i don't know" and leave it at that.

Why is it so important for us to know? I think this is a more interesting question.
 
Pygoscelis said:
Why is it so important for us to know? I think this is a more interesting question.
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We are curious creatures by nature.... And we have higher brain function than animals that urges us to find answers.....even if we wish to ignore them in favor of what is immediate and self explanatory... Can't go against forces that drive you to seek and learn....It is a need that has to be fulfilled ... like the other primal ones we all know so well!
 
muzna said:
i thought the big bang theory was still considered?
that the universe was a central hot mass.
what happened to the Big Crunch theory..
(whatever was i taught in AL physics????!!!!)
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:sl:
The big cruch was disproved. There is not enough matter in it universe for it to collapse on itself.
:w:
 
Pygoscelis said:
That is not absurd by definition. It just doesn't resonate with you. Why can't time be infinite? What makes you think it is finite? Your answer sounds to me like the theist who says God clearly exists or the atheist who says God clearly Doesn't. It is a claim without any stated basis.
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It seems you understood absolutely nothing of what I wrote. Allow me to explain again. To say that the universe has existed eternally without origin is to say that there was an inifinite period of time that preceded us. It is logically incoherent to suggest that an infinite period of time had to pass before the present. Why? Because an infinite period of time logically CANNOT elapse. If you are running up a set of stairs with an infinite number of steps, you will never get to the top. If you are trying to cross an infinite distance you will never be able to do so. If the distance was truly infinitely long you would just keep going and going. Likewise, an infinite period of time by definition does not come to an end. So there could not possibly be an infinite period of time preceding us.

Hopefully that is more clear.
Regards
 
The origins of the universe is still a great scientific mystery. Our universe could simply be the inside of an expanding super massive dark star, or a circular system where universes are merely recycled into other universes of which we are in 1 of a near infinate number.

I think the most important question for religion and science is simple. Is our universe a single one off entity or 1 of many?

Pygoscelis
Good point.

Nobody truly knows the origin of the universe, if there was one. Some decide to have faith and believe in a religious explanation. Others latch onto scientific theories such as evolution.
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May I give you some advice. Around this forum it is (in my opinion) generally a bad idea to use the term "Evolution" other than in the context of the theory of evolution which in no way seeks to answer questions such as how life started or any issues regarding the creation of the universe. It causes a lot of misunderstandings a little later on!
 
Greetings and peace root;

I think the most important question for religion and science is simple. Is our universe a single one off entity or 1 of many?
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I think the universe is big enough to keep mankind searching for millenniums to come, what difference would it make if there where a billion universes? I still think the greater question is; does a creator God of the universe exist; yes or no?

In the spirit of searching

Eric
 
Greetings in peace wilberhum;

Is that a request for Proof?
If so, there is none.
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I agree there is no real proof, and that is what keeps us searching.

Individual faith in God brings proof for the person who is searching for God and wants to find God, but this proof does not satisfy those who do not believe. This perception of truth also seems to take believers along many diverse paths.

In the spirit of searching

Eric
 
Eric H - what difference would it make if there where a billion universes? I still think the greater question is; does a creator God of the universe exist
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The difference would be an infinate number of "chances" where what you see in a universe are stars! As opposed to the very unlikely chance of one attempt to create a universe that was "just right" for a seeing universe where what you see are stars.
 
Eric H said:
Greetings in peace wilberhum;



I agree there is no real proof, and that is what keeps us searching.

Individual faith in God brings proof for the person who is searching for God and wants to find God, but this proof does not satisfy those who do not believe. This perception of truth also seems to take believers along many diverse paths.

In the spirit of searching

Eric
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i agree completely with the above.
something i have run into for the first time on here on LI is that some do not seem to differentiate between "faith" and "knowledge" and will offer "proof" for what is basically unprovable, even if it is true to the person making the statement.
religion cannot be proven - this does not mean that it is not true for its followers or that god does not exist. (which equally cannot be proven).
 
:sl:
A few posts were removed - please note: this discussion is on the origin of the universe. Not proof for the existence of God. Not the miraculous nature of the Qur'an. We already have enough threads on those topics, please use the search facility.

:w:
 
:sl:
Science has shown us that there was once a time when the universe didn't exist, which logically means that something must have caused it to come to being. What this thing is/was, however, cannot be proved by science, and any explanation is guesswork or theology. However, there is a difference between the Islamic belief and the atheistic beliefs: whilst the Islamic belief is founded on allaah (swt)'s signs in the Quran, the atheistic hypotheses are just educated guesses.
:w:
 
Fishman said:
:sl:
Science has shown us that there was once a time when the universe didn't exist
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What science? I would like to see this. Are you just extrapolating from the universe being in a state of expansion or do you have something more than that?
 
Pygoscelis said:
What science? I would like to see this. Are you just extrapolating from the universe being in a state of expansion or do you have something more than that?
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:sl:
Yes, partly from extrapolating from the expansion of the universe, but also from other things:
If the universe had existed forever, astronomers would be able to see out into space forever. But this is not the case. About 14 billion light years from Earth, no stars, gas or quasars can be seen. Light from this area originated relatively close to the time that extrapolations suggest that the universe was born.

Also, according to extrapolations, there must have been a time when the universe was an infinitely small singularity, which meant that nothing could exist.
:w:
 
Fishman said:
:sl:
Yes, partly from extrapolating from the expansion of the universe, but also from other things:
If the universe had existed forever, astronomers would be able to see out into space forever. But this is not the case. About 14 billion light years from Earth, no stars, gas or quasars can be seen. Light from this area originated relatively close to the time that extrapolations suggest that the universe was born.

Also, according to extrapolations, there must have been a time when the universe was an infinitely small singularity, which meant that nothing could exist.
:w:
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plank's barrier :D
 

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