Discussion with a Christian about the Crucifixion

[Malaikah]

Cheese, you have shown me great respect by the way you engaged and questioned my thoughts. Thank-you. I am humbled by it.

Hi there.

Wow thats good to hear. People tend to find my direct approach offensive so I was a little worried, but its good to hear you thought I was resfectful!

I've been busy so I might not be able to reply proplery to your post for a day or so.

Take care.

 

[islamicfajr]

Re: My final comment

If you are to spend any time reading Holy Books of another faith you might gain far more by searching for a greatest good within that book.

hi Eric ..look..as A Mulsim i didn't need to Read..the Books which u alter words from their places .....

Of those who are Jews (there are those who) alter words from their places and say: We have heard and we disobey and: Hear, may you not be made to hear! and: Raina, distorting (the word) with their tongues and taunting about religion; and if they had said (instead): We have heard and we obey, and hearken, and Unzurna it would have been better for them and more upright; but Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little. (4:46)

But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others). (5:13)

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subhan Allah..which Holy Books u took about it..

75] Can ye (O ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you? Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.

[76] Behold! when they meet the men of Faith, they say: "We believe": but when they meet each other in private, they say: "Shall you tell them what Allah hath revealed to you, that they may engage you in argument about it before your Lord?" Do ye not understand (their aim)?

[77] Know they not that Allah knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal?

[78] And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

[79] Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from Allah," to traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

(2:75-79)
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any Way.....
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Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers. (6:114)....

......................

finally Keep in ur mind that..

Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning. (3:19)

And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.(3:85)

............

peace,

islamicfajr

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: My final comment

hi Eric ..look..as A Mulsim i didn't need to Read..the Books which u alter words from their places .....

I would agree with you....as far as this goes. As a Muslim you have no need to read the sacred scriptures of any other religion. They are basically without meaning to you, at least as far as understanding your own faith goes. One cannot explain Islam by reading the Bible. Just as one cannot understand Zorastrianism by reading the writings of Buddha.

But if one was a Hindu and sought to understand Islam, I would encourage that person to read the Qur'an, to study the life of the prophet, and to try to find out what Muslims actually thought, not what other Hindus thought regarding Islam. I am not a Muslim, but even I understand that.

I am a Christian. I am here not so much because I value the teaching of the Qur'an and Islamic beliefs, but because I value understanding them. (How can I value them until I understand them?) And so, I go not to other Christians to comment on their understanding of Islam, Muhammad (pbuh), and the Qur'an, but I go to those who know and practice the faith of Islam.

In coming here, I have been glad to see that there are those within Islam who have this same view toward Christianity. They may not believe the teachings of Christianity. They may believe that the Bible that Christians use today is a corrupted message. They may believe that originally the teaching of Isa was the same message of Islam that Allah (swt) had Isa deliver to the Jews and that Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to deliver to all human kind. I get that. But they also understand that merely dogmatically declaring their own Islamic beliefs will not help them to understand the actual faith of Christians. And for some reason, there do appear to be those Muslim brothers and sisters who desire to understand not just what Islam teaches about Christianity, but what Christians understand about themselves. Whether they desire this understanding so that by more fully understanding Christian thought they can refute it in the proclamtion of what they understand to be the true message God wants shared, the message of Islam; or whther they desire this simply to develop better interrelgious understanding as a means to bring about more harmony among different people in this world is not important to me. I simply praise God that people of differing faiths desire to understand one another, for whatever reason.

But I do second what Eric has said, if you desire to communicate with Christians, you will do better to understand how it is that we perceive ourselves than to merely tell us how wrong we are. You will get a better hearing.

 

[islamicfajr]

Grace seeker...about ur Name nice one..All us Forgiveness of All our sin..

Subhan Allah..when u reverted to islam = Forgiveness for All Previous Sins

Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). (8:38)

............................
...islam's Ummah..
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Thus have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves ...(2:143)

Ye are the best of Peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had Faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have Faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (3:110)

If any do seek for glory and power, to Allah belong all glory and power. To Him mount up (all) words of Purity: it is He Who exalts each Deed of Righteousness. Those that lay Plots of Evil, for them is a Penalty terrible; and the plotting of such will be void (of result). (35:10)

Yea, to those who take for friends Unbelievers rather than Believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay all honour is with Allah. (4:139)

...But honour belongs to Allah and His Messenger, and to the Believers..(63:8)

I am here not so much because I value the teaching of the Qur'an and Islamic beliefs, but because I value understanding them. (How can I value them until I understand them?) And so, I go not to other Christians to comment on their understanding of Islam, Muhammad (pbuh), and the Qur'an, but I go to those who know and practice the faith of Islam.

If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. (9:6)


Masha` Allah..then u should change ur Name to Turth Seeker..

....some day i wanna call u my Brother in islam..

May Allah Direct u to the right path ..Ameen..

peace,

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you islamicfajr;

When I talk with people of other faiths, I search for what is best in their faith to see what inspires them, many times I have been surprised. I can remember talking about Buddhism with a Buddhist, and his understanding helped me to perceive Christ in a greater way.

I read posts about how Muslims perceive love and prayer, and their explanation has helped me to understand love and prayer through Christianity in a greater way.

When I search for what is best in others it helps to brake down the barriers that exist between me and people of other diverse faiths. I am still a Christian and I cannot see that changing; to me it seems the greater path. But I still have this desire to seek interfaith tolerance and friendships despite all our differences.

But when I hear people of one faith challenging my faith or other people's faith it does seem to turn me away.

God is greater than the sum of all the religions of the world put together, all our prayers are heard by the same God.

In the spirit of searching

Eric

 

[Grace Seeker]

Islamicfajrr,

Above, Woodrow very truly said:

As a Muslim, I do not accept the Bible as being an authentic source of information. Trying to convince me with Biblical ohrases makes as much sense as trying to Teach me about religious beliefs and using a telephone book as the authoritative document.

I believe I understood exactly what he meant by that. It is a very true statement. For a Muslim, it is the Qur'an, and not the Bible, which is authoritative.

But there is a corallary to it that I would ask you to consider as also being true.

As a non-Muslim, I do not accept the Qur'an as being an authentic source of information. Trying to convince me with phrases from it makes as much sense as me trying to teach you by using the Bible as an authoritative document. The Bible is authoritative only is so far as saying this is what I believe, not for me saying to you what you should believe. And the Qur'an, though viewed as authoritative by you, is not going to be authoritative to me. It helps me to understand where you are coming from, but it does nothing to change how I am going to perceive truth.

If you want to speak to me, you must do more than merely quote the Qur'an -- I have my own copy that I have already read -- you must open also your own life to me and show me how the Qur'an has helped you to live a life of Islam. For like you, I, too, am seeking to live my life in submission to the will of God.

You see, I am not an unbeliever. Indeed I am very much a believer and a follower of the one God who revealed God's self to us in and through the life and ministry of the one you know as the prophet Jesus (pbuh).

Just as you quoted: If only the People of the Book had Faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have Faith(3:110) Until you converse with me, rather than merely talk at me, I doubt if you will know me well enough to determine what type of faith I might have.

And I am sorry to say this, but you actually lose some credibility with me, when you use a verse such as the following in the way you have: Yea, to those who take for friends Unbelievers rather than Believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay all honour is with Allah.(4:139) I know enough about Islam to know that this is NOT in reference to prohibit being "friends" with non-Muslims with the connotation that the word "friend" has in English. I know that such a choice of words is a poor translation of the original Arabic. The word there is "auliya" which is often mistranslated to mean friends when it does not. The idea is NOT that one should have no non-Muslim friends, but that one should not be prefering non-Muslims to Muslims (or especially seeking them in place of Muslims) in one's relationships. Further it actually doesn't have as much to do witih friendships as with business relationships. It thus (at least to me, perhaps not to you) seems totally misapplied here, for how can one bear witness to Allah among non-Muslims if one has no non-Muslim friends? Again, I assert to you, that being friends requires a back and forth sharing and exchange of ideas. A one-sided promulgation of dogma does not a friendship make.

By the way, I do not think that I am a man without knowledge. Indeed, first I am seeking the way of Islam, in that I am seeking to live life in 100% conformity to the will of God, seeking not my own honor nor glory, but God's. And I seek to do so by living a righteous life in submission to God's will, not mine. Further, I have found words that I believe God has provided to help me in this path:

"Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves."
"Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited."
"If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."​

You will not find these exact words in the Qur'an, but I dare say that their message and the message of the Qur'an are much the same. Perhaps it is not divine revelation, not on par with how you would view the Qur'an, but that does not mean that God's truth cannot also be found in the wisdom of others such as the posts of Ansar Al-'Adl, Woodrow, or your own. And so too, I have found words that have helped me to live a life in submission to God in these words:

"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."​

They were written by a man named Paul. I don't expect them to necessarily guide you, but they have guided me and helped me to submit myself to
God in my life. I would hope you could respect, even if not honor, that.

 

[Skillganon]

What if your forefathers have been devoid of knowledge and had no guidance?

 

[Grace Seeker]

What if your forefathers have been devoid of knowledge and had no guidance?

First, I am fortunate that such is not the case.

Second, just as was the case for all the prophets, God can still speak to us. While I do not claim to have received divine revelation in the sense of receiving a message like the prophets did, I do believe that God does still speak to us to help us discern truth from error. Thus, we are never without guidance, for God himself guides us into all truth.

Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him). (42:13)​

Thus I see no reason to fear that I do not have the guidance that I need. For if Allah has chosen me, I have nothing to be worried about. And if Allah has not choosen me for Himself, all my strivings would not change a thing which has already been decided by the will of Allah. I live by the knowledge of himself God has been pleased to give to me, and seek to live for him as best as I can by that guidance. Insallah.

 

[Skillganon]

First, I am fortunate that such is not the case.

Second, just as was the case for all the prophets, God can still speak to us. While I do not claim to have received divine revelation in the sense of receiving a message like the prophets did, I do believe that God does still speak to us to help us discern truth from error. Thus, we are never without guidance, for God himself guides us into all truth.

Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him). (42:13)​

Thus I see no reason to fear that I do not have the guidance that I need. For if Allah has chosen me, I have nothing to be worried about. And if Allah has not choosen me for Himself, all my strivings would not change a thing which has already been decided by the will of Allah. I live by the knowledge of himself God has been pleased to give to me, and seek to live for him as best as I can by that guidance. Insallah.

Yusuf Ali Translation.

43:20. ("Ah!") they say, "If it had been the will of ((Allah)) Most Gracious, we should not have worshipped such (deities)!" Of that they have no knowledge! they do nothing but lie!

 

[Grace Seeker]

Yusuf Ali Translation.

43:20. ("Ah!") they say, "If it had been the will of ((Allah)) Most Gracious, we should not have worshipped such (deities)!" Of that they have no knowledge! they do nothing but lie!

I'm not sure which it is: Are you objecting to my use of the Qur'an? Or are you simply calling me a liar? In either case I would have thought better of you than that.

From Shaykh Abdullah Bin Bayyah:
This idea here should be understood, and the verse from the Quran that we should take as the overriding verse in our relationship with this people [i.e. Non-muslims] is where Allah subhaana wa ta'aala says concerning those who neither fight you because of your religion nor remove you from your homes that He does not prohibit you from showing them birr: righteousness.

Allah, subhaana wa ta'aala, for that reason says, "Call to your Lord with wisdom and with a beautiful admonition, and dispute them in the most excellent of ways." In other words, debate with them and dialogue with them in the most beautiful of ways. Don't be argumentative; don't be cruel; don't be mean; don't humiliate them. Do it ways in which they can listen to the truth, respect the truth, and come to the truth. For this reason, we have to be du'ahtis salaam: people who are callers to peace.​

I beg your pardon if I have misunderstood the meaning of your post. If I have, could you please clarify, for I seek to understand as much as I seek to be understood.

 

[Skillganon]

I'm not sure which it is: Are you objecting to my use of the Qur'an? Or are you simply calling me a liar? In either case I would have thought better of you than that.

From Shaykh Abdullah Bin Bayyah:
This idea here should be understood, and the verse from the Quran that we should take as the overriding verse in our relationship with this people [i.e. Non-muslims] is where Allah subhaana wa ta'aala says concerning those who neither fight you because of your religion nor remove you from your homes that He does not prohibit you from showing them birr: righteousness.

Allah, subhaana wa ta'aala, for that reason says, "Call to your Lord with wisdom and with a beautiful admonition, and dispute them in the most excellent of ways." In other words, debate with them and dialogue with them in the most beautiful of ways. Don't be argumentative; don't be cruel; don't be mean; don't humiliate them. Do it ways in which they can listen to the truth, respect the truth, and come to the truth. For this reason, we have to be du'ahtis salaam: people who are callers to peace.​

I beg your pardon if I have misunderstood the meaning of your post. If I have, could you please clarify, for I seek to understand as much as I seek to be understood.

Thank you for your post.

If you read the post, their is little room for Judgment.

Wheter I am calling you a Liar ot not is a moot question.

Thank's

Skill

 

[Grace Seeker]

Thank you for your post.

If you read the post, their is little room for Judgment.

Wheter I am calling you a Liar ot not is a moot question.

Thank's

Skill

I did read the post. Sometimes I find the words of the Qur'an a little cryptic. So, if you wouldn't mind, could you expand upon your thoughts with a little bit of commentary as to the application you wish for me to understand from it? Thank-you for this kindness.

 

[Skillganon]

Hello Pastor:

Simple you posted this:

"Thus I see no reason to fear that I do not have the guidance that I need. For if Allah has chosen me, I have nothing to be worried about. And if Allah has not choosen me for Himself, all my strivings would not change a thing which has already been decided by the will of Allah. I live by the knowledge of himself God has been pleased to give to me, and seek to live for him as best as I can by that guidance. Insallah."#


and I posted this:

43:20. ("Ah!") they say, "If it had been the will of ((Allah)) Most Gracious, we should not have worshipped such (deities)!" Of that they have no knowledge! they do nothing but lie!

Thank's Skill.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Ah, now I think I get you. You are alluding to a belief that even in his sovreignity, that Allah elects not to force a person to worship Allah as the one true God, but invites. Thus if one chooses to worship some other diety than Allah, it is the individual not Allah who is responsibile for that choice.

If this is what you are saying, it seems perfectly reasonable, and I guess I will be held accountable then for that choice which I have made. Thank-you for clarifying.

Peace.

 

[Malaikah]

Here I need your help for a minute. It is my understanding of Islamic thought, that not only is Allah (swt) Almighty, but Allah (swt) is also sinless. What I am not sure of is the degree to which Allah (swt) can be associated with that which is sinful. Can a sinful person join Allah (swt) in Paradise? My understand is that one must be cleansed of the sins we have committed in this life before one can be admitted to Paradise. (Please correct me on this if I am wrong.)

Yes, that is correct.

If All is truly Almighty, then there is nothing that would necessitate the ridding one's self of sin before being admitted to Paradise -- except of course the very nature of Allah (swt) and Paradise being that they are exclusive of sin.

Well, Allah is just. It would not be fair to allow a sinful person into paradise without being cleansed because they do not deserve it as much as those who sinned less. We cant say that it is outside of God's power to admit the sinful into paradise, however it is simply something that Allah does not intend to do (as far as what Islam teachs us anyway).

Yet sin is something that is foreign to God.

hmm.. sin is something that can not be attributed to God. It is something that can only apply to the creations, not the Creator. I assume you understand that though?

In the Christian understanding, sin brings with it the curse of death, spiritual death. Jesus (pbuh) who never knew anything but a holy, righteous and sinless life, would be exposing himself to sin and its curse when he went to the cross.

hmmm... :-\ So isnt that like saying if anything were to ever destroy God, it would be sin. :? I must be missing something here.

Christians see this ultimately in Jesus (pbuh) cry from the cross, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me." You mentioned that there was a paradox in Christians beliefs; I think there in fact many. And here is one, how could God cry out to God that he was forsaken by God. I don't have a definitive answer for you.

Very true lol. Massive, confusing paradox.

Again, remember according to the Kenosis theory (which I don't expect you to accept for your understanding of either God nor Jesus (pbuh), but which Christians do and so I have to answer from that perspective when you ask questions relative to what Christians believe) Jesus (pbuh) would have experienced every human emotion, including doubts. Jesus (pbuh), in his human experience of life, was NOT personally All-Knowing. What he knew, would have been only that which the Father would have revealed to him.

So, what everything comes down to, is this Kenosis theory. It would seem that if a person accepted this theory then everything else comes naturally. Therefore, I think it would be useless to discuss anythign other than this theory.

From what I have understood so far, God is one but is composed of three: the father, the son and the spirit. Now, christian belief is that God, in the form of the son, came down to earth as Jesus and had to be offered as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind because there is no sacrifice big enough to do the job, other than God. While in this form- Jesus was human though still divine, and therefore acted as anyother human would too.

Now here is what bothers me. If God is everything that we believe him to be- the all-knowing, the all-seeing, the all-hearing, the wise, the patient, the almighty, can he possible go from being perfect to being imperfect? A human?

Being Almighty means to have unlimited power, right? It represents an ability. God can do anything. This is where yet another paradox comes up- if God can do anything, surely it is within his power to 'transform' himself to a state (i.e. human), in which he is no longer the almighty? He can do anything, so therefore He can make Himself human. But then, once He is human, He no longer exhibits those characteristics that are exclusive to God- i.e. all knowing, almighty, etc.

The solution to this paradox is that when when we say God is almighty, we are refering to an ability. But then to say that since He is almighty, it must be within His power to become human and 'give up' some of his awesome traits for an amount of time, during which he is no longer almighty and is falable as any other human is- this is not refering to an ability an longer, it is refering to both and ability AND disability.

To break it down: the 'ability' aspect comes in when one considers whether God can do something or not. So to ask 'Can God do so and so?' is refering to an ability. But when that so and so is actually itself an inability, the question breaks down into something meaningless because it goes against the very nature of God. The inability in this case is the idea that God can be a human.

To reinforce what I mean by the above, consider this example: "If God can do anything, can He create a rock so heavy which He Himself can not carry?"

Again, this line of thinking is based on the idea of ability/inability. The ability is in the part of the question that says 'can God...', and the inability is in the idea of the rock. Such a rock cannot even exist in the first place (not to mention that he only thing that makes the rock heavy is gravity and that God is not bound by gravity in the first place lol).

Okay... i hope that made sense. The point of all that was (incase you missed it lol) was: Can the almighty really 'transform' into a being that is not almighty? (No, of course He cant)

(I apologize for my poor explanation of this. But I can't explain covalent bonding very well either, and still except it to be true.)

Right, but once a better model comes around to explain covalent bonding, that theory would be put aside, just like if there is a religion with a better understanding of the nature of God, then all other religions must also be put aside in favour of the one that makes the most sense. Afterall, the number one most important and central aspect of a religion is the understanding of God.

And I can understand why you might find that offensive. Can you see why I (coming from a different place) might find it to be wonderful?

Perhaps, but only if one takes a shallow look. Anything that could possibly be wonderful about it is over shadowed by the horror of it all (at least for me anyway, no offense intended.:thankyou: )

Several things here. First Jesus (pbuh) is not a man/god. Jesus (pbuh) is both 100% man and 100% God, but he is not a hybrid. You would be right if we viewed Jesus (pbuh) as some sort of hybrid for everything to have been easier for him. Like some sort of amphibious divine/human being he could call on whatever part he needed at the time. But that is NOT who Jesus (pbuh) is.

Is this the paradox coming out again? How can Jesus be 100% human, which means that he is imperfect, sinful, lacking in absolute knowledge and understand, and at the same time is 100% God, meaning that he would be perfect, sinless (as sin is a comcept that by definition can not be attributed to God), all-knowing and full of understanding? :uuh:

But even with these prophets people have strayed, and continue to stay from God.

That might be true for version of stories of the prophets that christians believe in (as far as I know, in biblical versions, your prophets committed adultey, got drunk... :uuh. That is in NO WAY true for the Islamic version of events.

In essence, the prophets were successful only in pointing out how imperfect we are in following the way of Islam. Is it the belief of Islam that there was ever anyone who was 100% a true follower of Islam over the entire course of one's life? (Again corret me if I am wrong...) I don't even think that it is claimed that the Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) lived totally a sinless life, even though he did live a life of Islam, in submission to Allah (swt).

Yes... the prophets were all perfect when it came to the belief in the oneness of God. They never made a mistake when it came to the religion, i.e. revelation and stuff like that, things that were directly linked to prophethood. They only made mistakes regarding their worldly lives, and then if it was a noteworthy mistake they would be corrected by Allah swt, (and also it was never major sins!! only minor ones.)

So yes, they are perfect examples for us. And the fact that they made mistakes is very important because we as humans make mistakes also and we need to have someone to look-up to as a role-model to teach us what to do once we make mistakes.

From what I understand, Jesus didnt make mistakes (as he was God)? How then can we relate to him?

Thus it is that Christianity thinks we need more than a prophet, more even than an example, we need a redeemer.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a redeemer? Can you please explain?

Now humans can't redeem other humans from their sins, we can't even redeem ourselves -- Christians hold that that which is imperfect cannot become perfect under its own power.

And yet you have no problem believing the reverse- that God, who is perfect, can become imperfect under his own powers?

Where I think Christians and Muslims differ is that Christians believe that only by Christ's redeeming work on the cross can that atonement be made, but once it is done it puts us right with God.

Huh? :-\ So you are saying, mankind wronged God by being openly disobiedient to him, and in order for us to be forgiven for this, God has to sacrifice himself. :? But isnt that just wronging God yet again?? So here we have two wrongs against God- making a right??:muddlehea

Again, Cheese, thank-you for providing me an opportunity to address these questions.

No problem. I hope the next batch of questions arent too overwhelming.

I just wish I knew how to give shorter answers.

Mine are prhaps just as long! lol sorry about that.

take care,
Cheese

 

[islamicfajr]

But when I hear people of one faith challenging my faith or other people's faith it does seem to turn me away.

God is greater than the sum of all the religions of the world put together, all our prayers are heard by the same God.

hi Eric..

...the Truth is the Truth....
if you really love God and His Messenger Jesus, you will follow lslam and Prophet Muhammad. Break this barrier inside you and come back to the way of your ancestors. You are now free because you are looking for the Truth and our great prophet Jesus told us that we should look for the Truth and the Truth will set us free. So, you will be a free man as soon as you accept It. Be strong enough to accept lslam as the Truth, without any hesitation on your part and you will taste real freedom and real happiness that you have never tasted before.


Keep in ur Mind That: i convinced that the person who disbelieves in the religion of Allaah is a kaafir, does not believe what Allaah has told us about their being kaafirs, and he does not believe that the religion of Islam abrogates all previous religions and that all people must follow this religion no matter what their religion was before.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]
“Say (O Muhammad): “O mankind! Verily, I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allaah”
[al-A’raaf 7:158]



i believe that : The Jews and Christians are kuffaar and mushrikeen.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And the Jews say: ‘Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allaah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allaah. That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. Allaah’s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth! … They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allaah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allaah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Tauraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] to worship none but One Ilaah (God — Allaah) Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).”
[al-Tawbah 9:30-31].

............
It was reported from Abu Hurayrag that the Messenger of Allaah :saw: (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “By the One is Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, not one of this nation, Jew or Christian, will hear of me and will die without having believed in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the dwellers of Hell fire.”
(Narrated by Muslim, 153)

i believe that : the Jews are kaafirs

i'm believing in the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meanings)

“And their hearts absorbed (the worship of) the calf because of their disbelief”
[al-Baqarah 2:93]

“Among those who are Jews, there are some who displace words from (their) right places and say: “We hear your word (O Muhammad) and disobey,” and “Hear and let you (O Muhammad) hear nothing.” And Raa‘ina [in Arabic it means “Be careful, listen to us, and we listen to you”, whereas in Hebrew, it means “an insult”] with a twist of their tongues and as a mockery of the religion (Islâm). And if only they had said: “We hear and obey”, and “Do make us understand,” it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allaah has cursed them for their disbelief…”
[al-Nisa’ 4:46]

“Because of their breaking the covenant, and of their rejecting the Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allaah, and of their killing the Prophets unjustly, and of their saying: “Our hearts are wrapped (with coverings, i.e. we do not understand what the Messengers say)” — nay, Allaah has set a seal upon their hearts because of their disbelief, so they believe not but a little. And because of their (Jews) disbelief and uttering against Maryam (Mary) a grave false charge (that she has committed illegal sexual intercourse); And because of their saying (in boast), “We killed Messiah ‘Eesaa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allaah,” — but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them the resemblance of ‘Eesaa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)]…”
[al-Nisa’ 4:155-157]

“Verily, those who disbelieve in Allaah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allaah and His Messengers (by believing in Allaah and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, “We believe in some but reject others,” and wish to adopt a way in between. They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment”
[al-Nisa’ 4:150-151]

....................
i believe that : the Christians are kuffaar

i'm believing in the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meanings)

“Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allaah is the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary)…”
[al-Maa’idah 5:17]

“Surely, disbelievers are those who said: “Allaah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).” But there is no Ilaah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilaah (God —Allâh). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them”

[al-Maa’idah 5:73]

i'm believing in the words of Allaah concerning the Jews and Christians who do not believe in our Prophet or follow him:

“Verily, those who disbelieve in Allaah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allaah and His Messengers (by believing in Allaah and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, “We believe in some but reject others,” and wish to adopt a way in between. They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment”

[al-Nisa’ 4:150-151]

What is there left to say after these clear statements from Allaah, may He be exalted? We ask Allaah to guide us. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad :arabic5:.


Finally .....

Keep in ur Mind that:

Allaah has permitted kindness and fair treatment towards the kaafir who is not fighting the Muslims, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Allaah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allaah loves those who deal with equity”
[al-Mumtahanah 60:8]

But kindness and fair treatment does not mean friendship and love, because it is not permitted to take a kaafir as a friend or love him.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“You (O Muhammad) will not find any people who believe in Allaah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allaah and His Messenger (Muhammad), even though they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred (people). For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with Rooh (proofs, light and true guidance) from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens (Paradise) under which rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allaah is pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the party of Allaah. Verily, it is the party of Allaah that will be the successful”
[al-Mujaadilah 58:22]

“O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies (i.e. disbelievers and polytheists) as friends, showing affection towards them, while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the truth”
[al-Mumtahanah 60:1]

“O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitaanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:118]

“And incline not toward those who do wrong, lest the Fire should touch you, and you have no protectors other than Allaah, nor you would then be helped”
[Hood 12:113]

“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa’ (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa’ of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)”
[al-Maa’idah 5:51]

peace,

 

[Malaikah]

Grace Seeker,

Dont forget you promised me a reply!

 

[Grace Seeker]

Grace Seeker,

Dont forget you promised me a reply!

Indeed I did. Sorry to take so long to get back to it.:embarrass

So, what everything comes down to, is this Kenosis theory. It would seem that if a person accepted this theory then everything else comes naturally. Therefore, I think it would be useless to discuss anythign other than this theory.

Well, as I read what you have written (and other posts from the Muslim brothers and sisters) I can see that we also have a different understanding of the nature of sin. We basically agree as to what sins are, but we view how they impact us differently. For Christians they are much more than just wrong acts. In the way that Islam talks about the whole of life being one of Islam or not, so to the Christian views one's relationship with God. But the bigger problem is not with the individual details of what one does or does not do, but in the attitude from which those actions spring. As the Crucifixion is a way of dealing with sin, we need to be sure that we mean the same thing when we use this term. For the Christian it is more than just Haraam (though that is bad enough), the real problem is a sin nature that lies deep within each person's heart. This very nature has to be changed.

From what I have understood so far, God is one but is composed of three: the father, the son and the spirit.

Yes. Interjecting an anology -- often you may see Christians use a triangle as sort of a representation of this. A triangle has three sides, but it is just one triangle. And it is only completely a triangle when talking about all of the sides together, yet if one lives in the plane of the triangle, one can only see one side of the triangle at a time. So one might speak of side A, side B, or side C. But the reality is that each side is just one view of the triangle which is always a whole.

Now, christian belief is that God, in the form of the son, came down to earth as Jesus and had to be offered as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind because there is no sacrifice big enough to do the job, other than God. While in this form- Jesus was human though still divine, and therefore acted as anyother human would too.

Now here is what bothers me. If God is everything that we believe him to be- the all-knowing, the all-seeing, the all-hearing, the wise, the patient, the almighty, can he possible go from being perfect to being imperfect? A human?

I am not willing to admit that humans, when they are what God created them to be, are imperfect. I will readily admit that I am imperfect. I will admit that I have known no perfect people. But I believe that when God created Adam and Eve that God paused at the end of his acts of creation, "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good" (Genesis 1:31). This even though we know that there is none God except God alone. Yet that we were very good is God's own opinion of us (and all creation). I believe that is because at the time of creation we were in fact perfect.

(Now, I don't know that you will get other Christians to word this like I have, but this is our conversation, so that is one way I wish to address your question. You may wish to see if other Christians might answer this question differently.)

It was as a result of the fall, when sin entered through disobedience, that we became imperfect. Christians believe that Jesus was born without this sin in his life. Thus, he was a perfect of a human being as were Adam and Eve. Only, unlike them, he lived a life of perfect obedience. So, there is no corruption for Jesus to be the perfect God in an imperfect human body, because he was in a perfect human body.

Being Almighty means to have unlimited power, right? It represents an ability. God can do anything. This is where yet another paradox comes up- if God can do anything, surely it is within his power to 'transform' himself to a state (i.e. human), in which he is no longer the almighty? He can do anything, so therefore He can make Himself human. But then, once He is human, He no longer exhibits those characteristics that are exclusive to God- i.e. all knowing, almighty, etc.

The solution to this paradox is that when when we say God is almighty, we are refering to an ability. But then to say that since He is almighty, it must be within His power to become human and 'give up' some of his awesome traits for an amount of time, during which he is no longer almighty and is falable as any other human is- this is not refering to an ability an longer, it is refering to both and ability AND disability.

To break it down: the 'ability' aspect comes in when one considers whether God can do something or not. So to ask 'Can God do so and so?' is refering to an ability. But when that so and so is actually itself an inability, the question breaks down into something meaningless because it goes against the very nature of God. The inability in this case is the idea that God can be a human.

To reinforce what I mean by the above, consider this example: "If God can do anything, can He create a rock so heavy which He Himself can not carry?"

Again, this line of thinking is based on the idea of ability/inability. The ability is in the part of the question that says 'can God...', and the inability is in the idea of the rock. Such a rock cannot even exist in the first place (not to mention that he only thing that makes the rock heavy is gravity and that God is not bound by gravity in the first place lol).

Okay... i hope that made sense. The point of all that was (incase you missed it lol) was: Can the almighty really 'transform' into a being that is not almighty? (No, of course He cant)

hahahaha I was thinking of the very "rock" question you posed, before I even got to where you brought it up. The problem with it is that you are looking at just one side of the triangle. That Jesus (pbuh) choose to limit himself and live devoid of those powers, doesn't mean that they are not a part of his nature. When I play with my grandchildren, I could win any game I were to choose to win. But I don't. Not because I cheat and throw them the game (though, I've been known to do that too), but because I handicap myself to play only on my knees or in some other way. That doesn't mean that I'm not really taller or faster or have whatever other ability, but I elect to give up that ability for a time. I am not truly disabled. But I do not exercise all of my ability. I empty myself of the ability to jump higher and run faster, but of course they are still a part of my nature. But for the period of time that I am interacting with my grandkids they are not evident.

Is this the paradox coming out again? How can Jesus be 100% human, which means that he is imperfect, sinful, lacking in absolute knowledge and understand, and at the same time is 100% God, meaning that he would be perfect, sinless (as sin is a comcept that by definition can not be attributed to God), all-knowing and full of understanding? :uuh:

I think I just addressed that question above. But, if not, let me know and I'll try again.

But even with these prophets people have strayed, and continue to stay from God.

That might be true for version of stories of the prophets that christians believe in (as far as I know, in biblical versions, your prophets committed adultey, got drunk... :uuh. That is in NO WAY true for the Islamic version of events.

I said that the people who received the message of the prophets strayed and continued to stay from God. I don't think that is different from your understanding. Are there not people who received the Prophet Muhhamed's (pbuh) message that still strayed from God? Are there not people who still continue to stray from God? I see no difference.

Yes... the prophets were all perfect when it came to the belief in the oneness of God. They never made a mistake when it came to the religion, i.e. revelation and stuff like that, things that were directly linked to prophethood. They only made mistakes regarding their worldly lives, and then if it was a noteworthy mistake they would be corrected by Allah swt, (and also it was never major sins!! only minor ones.)

So, on that we are basically agreed. Except for I don't distinguish between major and minor sins. A sin is anything that separates us from God. Imagine an electrical connection. If the connection is broken, it doesn't matter if the break in the connection is a few millimeters or if it is kilometers. The current stops following. So too, the Holy Spirit (I know you don't believe in the concept) is God's presence following through our lives. But sin breaks that fellowship we were created to have with God. It doesn't matter the size of the sin. We can return to being obedient, but unless we repair the damage of that sin there will still be a break in the connection between us and God.

So yes, they are perfect examples for us. And the fact that they made mistakes is very important because we as humans make mistakes also and we need to have someone to look-up to as a role-model to teach us what to do once we make mistakes.

Of course, we have many role models too. All of the prophets you mentioned. But even more Jesus (pbuh). Because while the prophets committed these "minor" sins you speak of, Jesus (pbuh) didn't even do that. And given that he was also human, then he shows a way for the rest of us humans (if we get cleansed of our sins) to live a perfectly obedient life in follow connection with God just as he did.

From what I understand, Jesus didnt make mistakes (as he was God)? How then can we relate to him?

As I just said above, it isn't because he was God that Jesus (pbuh) made no mistakes. It was because he lived an obedient human life, fully submissive to his Father's will.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a redeemer? Can you please explain?

I can try. Let's see what questions you have from what I have said here and then I'll take this and the following questions on. :happy:

And yet you have no problem believing the reverse- that God, who is perfect, can become imperfect under his own powers?

Huh? :-\ So you are saying, mankind wronged God by being openly disobiedient to him, and in order for us to be forgiven for this, God has to sacrifice himself. :? But isnt that just wronging God yet again?? So here we have two wrongs against God- making a right??:muddlehea

I don't think so, but can we keep this question in reserve till we are sure we understand each other (not that I expect that we will agree) on the above issues being disucssed.

No problem. I hope the next batch of questions arent too overwhelming.



Mine are prhaps just as long! lol sorry about that.

take care,
Cheese

I love it. You really challenge me to think. My son's girlfriend, asked some of these same questions today at lunch. You helped me to be better prepared. Thanks!! :thankyou:

 

[dougmusr]

ou are now free because you are looking for the Truth and our great prophet Jesus told us that we should look for the Truth and the Truth will set us free.

Is this a reference to a verse in the Quran?

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Doesn't seem like it :?