Diverse Problems for Islam

[Futuwwa]

The original post is based on too many arbitrary, unsubstantiated assumptions to be in need of refutation. That which can arbitrarily be asserted can be dismissed out of hand.

 

[Zafran]

salaam

Reading the original post just shows why so many members didnt bother answering - nothing about God or the prophetic tradition, only speculative knowledge that isn't even important. Heaven as a place of lust??? not about the presence of God?? seriously. More bothered about the rewards then God?

anthropomorphic talk about Jinns and Angels because everyone draws them as humans? Even though nobody has seen their form?

Lying??

come on.

 

[جوري]

7. Is it true that Mohommed says that it's sometimes OK to tell a lie? If so, he knew that telling a lie is always wrong, right?

Glad I started with the end statement, a summation of what preceded.. guess you're publishing your brilliant research in this paper?
Two scientific journals accepted a study by Maggie Simpson


No, he never said that- perhaps in christian mythology he did, they often makeup things to feel better about their self-immolating middle eastern mangod.. If they lie about everything else I suppose nothing is left but Christianity, still as I said to the other troll, Odin and Thor are an easier selling point..
Glad you're doing PhD in philo guess we'll be finding you at Mcdies flipping burgers

You've asked some clever questions,

still a tiny man wanting to be a big fish in a small pond, might it inject you with much needed testosterone. You stand on your self made mountain to see how small people are, but that is how they see you too a small man!
Aren't you too old and too miserable to hang on to a remote forum after all these years? get a woman, eat chocolate enjoy your meaningless life, I can't imagine what you're hoping to accomplish here? Enjoy your delusions and let others enjoy theirs!

all the best

 

[greenhill]

Hi Traditio,

Your OP is about 3 things essentially.

1) The invisible beings
2) About Heaven and Hell
3) The conduct of Muhammad (saw)

In most cases that I have read relating to these kinds of question is that it is centered around certain abstract information people have collated.

We have to remember that first, Islam is not a new religion. It has been in existence since the first man, Adam (pbuh) and all subsequent prophets had the same duty to call people to the worship of Allah.

I think the question on the invisible beings have been addressed?

On the matter of heaven and hell, first of all it is not us who can determine in any way who goes where. We can only pray for Allah's mercy. The question is then how do we strive to get His Mercy?

You mentioned about martyrs and how their bodies are still intact in their graves (and how it relates to their enjoyment of paradise). Well, they are not as yet in paradise. All humanity will be awaken from their graves on Judgment Day. Until then, they rest in their graves. They are not as yet judged for their actions. What I have learnt is that in the grave, you are questioned on your faith (whether you were a muslim or not).

But the question you asked, a clever one, is related to the intention. Ie. I do not do x,y and z (as being things Allah has forbidden) but I do intend a,b and c (as being things Allah will be pleased about) so that I do not roast in hell but instead enjoy the benefit of heaven. This then becomes (according to the analogy) that I did not do it because I love Allah but more as a result of me being afraid of spending an eternity in hell. Wrong reasons? That I was not sincere about my choice? This is what I am trying to get at with regards to the 'abstract' form of questioning.

We are given choices, and the path we take is based on our reasoning and desires and not from absolute knowledge. If we can all get absolute answers on the existence of God, then where is the 'choice' for people to decide? This is the real test. So, we first have to believe in Allah and then it would be hard to disassociate the rewards and the punishment aspects from the following of faith. It is part and parcel. Allah has said in many parts of the Quran how to gain His favors and what the rewards are and also how to gain His wrath and ways to seek forgiveness. Just because we are given guidelines what to do (or not do) and we follow it, does that mean we are insincere and only doing it to seek the benefits, hence should not be given any good out of it but instead punished?

On how do we escape the fires of hell? It ultimately rests with the Mercy of Allah. But we can help ourselves along the way.
1) Islamic monotheism
2) Do what Allah commands of us and leave out what He dislikes (there's a lot that goes here)
3) Continuously seek His forgiveness and guidance
4) Bear with patience the test and trials heaped on you (as this also helps wash away sins)

On your final point, regarding what the prophet (saw) said, (there are others that people have brought up) I think it has been touched on so I won't say anything more..

eace:

 

[Zafran]

Salaam

There are many problems with his original posts and his rebuttals. He seems to rely on Aristotle and Plato as if they are messengers of God. He also seems to think that anything to do with eating and drinking and having sex is ultimately "carnal", so any of that in heaven is shocking for him even though those things are in our human nature as intellectual and spiritual pursuits are. Its why we have a law to keep them in check and used in right avenues.

Lastly he thinks lying is wrong in all cases - really? if there were 100 Jews hiding under someones house and the Nazis Knocked on their door - that person should tell the Nazis the truth???

If your christian friends and family were in danger would you not lie to save them???

The rest about Jinns and Angels is as i said speculative at best, As the Quran says you've been given little knowledge.

peace

 

[جوري]

^^^ tuqya isn't a part of Islam that's a Shiite invention the ******* child of Christianity!
i think folks confuse omission of information during war for lies - That being said, Id personally have no problem ratting some people out.

 

[keiv]

"invisible fire people"

That's pretty much where I stopped reading. A response to you longer than one line would be a waste of time.

 

[Traditio]

You know, one of the most jarring things for me, as a Christian, is it seems as though you Muslims think that you can somehow "earn" heaven, that your own good works somehow "deserve" a reward from God. I find myself wondering; is there any room for grace (i.e., unmerited divine favor) in what is, effectively, a Pelagian cult (and here, I do not mean this in the pejorative sense, but in the etymological sense)?

Ultimately, I think I never can agree with your prophet, since I can never agree that I ever, of my own account, can merit favor in God's eyes, or else, if I have sinned, make up for my sins by my own power. Whatever good I can do, I owe that to God. Whatever evil I do, whenever I violate God's laws, I make myself an enemy of God, irretrievably and irredeemably guilty, deserving of His righteous punishment, rightfully excluded from His society because of my crimes against His Holy Law.

But, I hear from the Muslims, "wait until Ramadan, and give charity, and you will get multiples more merit than had you donated otherwise." As though my works were anything more than sheer refuse in the sight of a Supremely Holy and Just God, to whom I owe my all, and whom I have offended because of my sins.

I know through philospohy that I can never merit Heaven, for his is nothing but the vision of God Himself, to which there always remains a natural disproportion given my nature, and from which I have, because of my sins, an unbreakable hindrance. Because of my sins, because I have offended a God of infinite majesty, because I have violated the Law of the infinitely Just God, had I done this only once, I would deserve Hell forever.

How, then, can I but sigh in sorrowful pity when the Muslims tell me that I can buy my way out through good deeds?

If Jesus hasn't died on the Cross and risen from the dead, all is lost. Such is, I think, as much as St. Anselm says in Cur Deus Homo (Why God [became] a man). The verdict is already written. The gavel has already sounded. We are guilty. We must pay the price.

Here, we must consider the parable of the workers of Matthew 20. The workers are paid no more, no less, for their work. Why? Because a penny is all that the owner has to give. The owner represents God, and the penny, the beatific vision, i.e., the sight of God Himself seen face to face. What more can God give than Himself? And none of us deserve that. We only gain it because He is generous.

 

[جوري]

1- who cares?? Truly
2- Islam doesn't deny original sin- it renounces the idea that such a sin can't be forgiven -
Not sure why eating a forbidden fruit in your mind is more bad than God impregnating a young girl with himself and then dying later in some orchestrated debacle!

please stay Christian and hopefully more people mull over the decision of converting - Muslims aren't lacking in number they lack in quality!

best,

 

[Futuwwa]

You know, one of the most jarring things for me, as a Christian, is it seems as though you Muslims think that you can somehow "earn" heaven, that your own good works somehow "deserve" a reward from God. I find myself wondering; is there any room for grace (i.e., unmerited divine favor) in what is, effectively, a Pelagian cult (and here, I do not mean this in the pejorative sense, but in the etymological sense)?

Funny that, I always thought we were supposed to be an Arian cult.

I know through philospohy that I can never merit Heaven, for his is nothing but the vision of God Himself, to which there always remains a natural disproportion given my nature, and from which I have, because of my sins, an unbreakable hindrance. Because of my sins, because I have offended a God of infinite majesty, because I have violated the Law of the infinitely Just God, had I done this only once, I would deserve Hell forever.

God saves or condemns who he wants, and doesn't care about your philosophical meandering about what anyone is deserving of. You speak about philosophy as it represents some kind of objective and certainly knowable reality above God, and which even God is bound by. A rather strange frame, if God is both omnipotent and the ultimate cause of everything.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Greetings Traditio,

(smile) I'm afraid you have some rather strange ideas about Islam. (sigh) Though Muslims have lost a lot of knowledge and I am sure you could find some who believe the most astonishing things. For instance, I've met people who, though Muslim, were educated at Catholic schools in their countries (a legacy of colonialism), and I've actually been told by them that certain Catholic beliefs are Islamic beliefs! And I have met those raised without much education in their faith in their supposedly Islamic countries, who believe what anti-Islamic propagandists say about Islam. It's rather sad.

In short, no, no one earns Paradise. None of us really deserves it, even the most pious of prophets. We all get there by Divine Grace, through His Compassion and Mercy. But we are expected to put our efforts in. And what exactly we will attain when we get to Paradise depends on how we have lived our lives. (smile) I like to use the following analogy: imagine an unborn child: if this child grows as much as he can during his time in the womb, in a healthy environment, he is much more likely to do well after birth. So are we humans like this in the Next Life. What we do during our time here influences the likelihood we will do well in the Next life. Not because we deserve it, but because God is Kind and Forgiving.

(smile) I'm afraid I don't have time at present to look at all your points. But I would urge you again to look at the Qur'an. You are no doubt much versed in Catholic lore. But if you want to truly access an Islamic vision of God, the Qur'an is The Source, par excellence.


May God, the Gentle, Lift you ever closer to Him.

 

[Abu Ametullah]

And only because there is something what you can't understand it doesn't mean its is not existing. You made it your self to eayse, there is a lot proves that Islam is the trues. And your focusing on something you can't understand. No one of us understand every singe part of the whole universe but still it is existing.:statisfie

 

[Abz2000]

there is no problem with Islam, if there is a problem anywhere, it is with us - or our limited perception.
Let us repent to God and submit to Him before it is too late.

 

[M.I.A.]

OP seems to have started from a faulty position...

The concept of angels and jin are not exclusive to Islam and probably predate it within abrahamic pbuh monothiesm..


Secondly how can any human answer such questions?

Except through speculation and philosophical viewpoints..


Imo mankind is often a vessel.. The things you put inside it manifest as darkness and light..

Although if you get time you should read the qurans account of Moses pbuh and his meeting with a guided stranger.

 

[Insaanah]

You know, one of the most jarring things for me, as a Christian, is it seems as though you Muslims think that you can somehow "earn" heaven, that your own good works somehow "deserve" a reward from God. I find myself wondering; is there any room for grace (i.e., unmerited divine favor) in what is, effectively, a Pelagian cult (and here, I do not mean this in the pejorative sense, but in the etymological sense)?

Ultimately, I think I never can agree with your prophet, since I can never agree that I ever, of my own account, can merit favor in God's eyes, or else, if I have sinned, make up for my sins by my own power. Whatever good I can do, I owe that to God. Whatever evil I do, whenever I violate God's laws, I make myself an enemy of God, irretrievably and irredeemably guilty, deserving of His righteous punishment, rightfully excluded from His society because of my crimes against His Holy Law.

But, I hear from the Muslims, "wait until Ramadan, and give charity, and you will get multiples more merit than had you donated otherwise." As though my works were anything more than sheer refuse in the sight of a Supremely Holy and Just God, to whom I owe my all, and whom I have offended because of my sins.

I know through philospohy that I can never merit Heaven, for his is nothing but the vision of God Himself, to which there always remains a natural disproportion given my nature, and from which I have, because of my sins, an unbreakable hindrance. Because of my sins, because I have offended a God of infinite majesty, because I have violated the Law of the infinitely Just God, had I done this only once, I would deserve Hell forever.

How, then, can I but sigh in sorrowful pity when the Muslims tell me that I can buy my way out through good deeds?

If Jesus hasn't died on the Cross and risen from the dead, all is lost. Such is, I think, as much as St. Anselm says in Cur Deus Homo (Why God [became] a man). The verdict is already written. The gavel has already sounded. We are guilty. We must pay the price.

Here, we must consider the parable of the workers of Matthew 20. The workers are paid no more, no less, for their work. Why? Because a penny is all that the owner has to give. The owner represents God, and the penny, the beatific vision, i.e., the sight of God Himself seen face to face. What more can God give than Himself? And none of us deserve that. We only gain it because He is generous.

You seem to be under the impression that Muslims buy their way to heaven, and the former being the case, you are misinformed. Rather, I think some self-introspection is due:

Islam recognises God's power to forgive with just His Will. Some of the other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf. In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or any type of sacrifice. We do not/cannot: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting God's will. As to salvation, that comes from the Mercy of God, and nobody else, nor from any institution.

"Narrated Abu Huraira (May Allah be pleased with him):

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The deeds of anyone of you will not save you (from the (Hell) Fire)." They said, "Even you (will not be saved by your deeds), O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)?" He said, "No, even I (will not be saved) unless and until Allah bestows His Mercy on me."

Ref Sahih al Bukhari 6463

If Jesus hasn't died on the Cross and risen from the dead, all is lost.

From a salvation point of view, according to current day Christianity, yes.

In Christianity, because of Adam (peace be upon him) eating from the tree, humans became imperfect, and not only Adam (peace be upon him), but all subsequent generations have to bear a punishment from God, fell out of grace with God, mankind's relationship with God was severed, they are born into a state of sin, and death entered the world.

The only thing that can rectify all of that, is a perfect sacrifice, i.e. the sacrifice of what they perceive to be a perfect man. Through what they perceive to be his death and resurrection, they believe that that broken relationship is repaired and that man is reconciled with God. Salvation and reconciliation with God can only be achieved through the crucifixion and acceptance of Jesus (peace be upon him) as their saviour, who they believe died for their sins, and to give them eternal life.

The favourite Christian line from the bible, "For God so loved the world..." when scrutinized, if you take it right back to why "...He gave his only son", doesn't add up though.

It shows a God who will not forgive, punishes other people for a sin they didn't commit, cuts off his relationship with them, makes them fall out of His grace, and makes them born into a state of sin, and then has an innocent man (who actually is Him) begotten, then killed in a torturous death to repair all of that.

Compare with Islam:

God forgave Adam (peace be upon him), and guided him, and has sent guidance for us all, and can forgive us all, freely, when we repent sincerely and ask sincerely, resolving not to repeat past mistakes, and does not expect perfection from us, but simply for us to worship Him alone without any associates, persons or parts to His Exclusive Divinity, and to not ascribe divinity to anybody or anything else, and to do our very best and try our very hardest with all our heart, body and soul, to love and obey Him and the messengers He sent. His Mercy opening the doors to salvation and paradise.

6. And speaking of Heaven and Hell, how do Muslims propose to escape the fires of Hell? Even a single serious sin turns us away from God, makes us enemies of God, and merits everlasting punishment. You'll presumably tell me that God is merciful, but I'll reply that He is Justice Itself. Pray as much as you want, but if there is nothing to counterbalance the infinite debt of punishment that you have merited through your sins, then you have no escape from His righteous indignation.

God is indeed Most Just, which is why nobody carries the sins of another. He doesn't make innocent people die for the sins of others. That is supreme injustice ascribed to God.

We are each responsible for and accountable for our own deeds, good or bad, and for the choices we make in life, each choice having a consequence. Nobody else is responsible for them or carries them away. No innocent person is made to suffer or die for other's sins. Babies are not born in a state of sin, but a state of innocence and purity. There is no concept of original sin, nor of God expecting perfection which cannot be achieved, nor of a broken relationship with God that requires reconciling, nor of ****ation requiring a saviour. Forgiveness is directly from God. Prayer is directly to God. God is the God of all, even of those who don't believe in Him.

In Islam, as Adam (peace be upon him) asked for forgiveness and was forgiven, so we too ask for Allah's forgiveness for our sins, as He loves for us to turn to Him in repentance, and loves forgiving. This forgiveness comes freely, just by Allah's will, when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent. Forgiveness does not require any type of sacrifice by God. Both Adam and Eve repented and were forgiven by their Merciful Lord; and indeed Adam was then chosen to be the first person to receive guidance from Allah, was honoured by Allah, and is counted among all the other Prophets of Islam. While guidance and the right way has been shown to us, we, as humans, have the freedom to choose, to err, and to repent sincerely, and should we do so, we will find Allah Forgiving. For all in the posterity of Adam, the door of returning to the right path is always open, prior to death.

If Jesus hasn't died on the Cross and risen from the dead, all is lost.

Taking your statement at face value, beliefs left as is, it is indeed. But the door to the right path and repentance is always open, before the angels come for one's soul. It's not too late. Whoever repents, will find Allah Most Pardoning and Forgiving. I hope you will study Islam, ask questions, open your heart and mind to it. I hope you will ponder and reflect, and re-evaluate and reassess the basis for your own beliefs and doctrines. And it is that to which all people are invited by the Qur'an. I hope you will read Brother Muhammad's responses to some of your other posts, here: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifications-about-islam/134325524-jesus-pbuh-muslim.html#post2852193 . Your beliefs regarding God, and which faith you follow, are the biggest, most serious and most important decisions you will ever make, as this life will end one day for all of us, and our position regarding God and His messengers is what makes or breaks our hereafter, which is forever. You owe it to yourself, to not regret in the hereafter, when it'll be too late. Do not view Islam by media portrayals, nor by the actions of some Muslims, but by its message. Study it from its authentic sources and speak to sincere knowledgeable Muslims. We tend to be busy in our lives, but please make the time for it. It'll be the most important thing you ever do.

To end, some quotes from the Qur'an:

"Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path." (Spoken by Jesus. 3:51 , 19:36 and 43:64)

And say, "Praise be to Allah, who has no son and no partner in His Dominion... (17:111 part)

Worship Allah exclusively, and do not associate others in His Divinity... (4:36, part)

This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed.(14:52) Say, "O mankind, the truth has come to you from your Lord, so whoever is guided is only guided for [the good of] his soul, and whoever goes astray only goes astray to the detriment of it.." (10:108 part) And fear a Day when you will be returned to Allah. Then every soul will be compensated for what it earned, and they will not be treated unjustly. (2:281)

Peace.

 

[Abz2000]

some of what sister Insaanah described is in the bible itself - ezekiel 18.
traditio, please understand that the bible is full of information (some of which has been lost or changed) pointing towards what was to ultimately be confirmed by God's final Messenger may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.
if you had bothered to read for yourself, the impossibly gymnastic style thinking of the indoctrinated teacher wouldn't have affected you, it's so simple.

i haven't a clue as to why mention of paradise and hell have been substituted for "death and life" but the gist of the message is clear:

1The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,

2What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3As*I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have*occasion*any more to use this proverb in Israel.*
4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

5But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,*
6Andhath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,*
7And hath not oppressed any,*but*hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8He*that*hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase,*that*hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,*
9Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he*is*just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

10If he beget a son*that is*a robber, a shedder of blood, and*that*doeth the like to*any*one of these*things,
11And that doeth not any of those*duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,*
12Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,*
13Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.

14Now, lo,*if*he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,*
15That*hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,*
16Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence,*but*hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,*
17Thathath taken off his hand from the poor,*that*hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.*
18As for*his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did*that*which*is*not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.

19Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father?
When the son hath done that which is lawful and right,*and*hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.*
22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.*
23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD:*and*not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity,*and*doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked*man*doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.*

25Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal.
Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26When a righteous*man*turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.*

27Again, when the wicked*man*turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.*
28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal.
O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn*yourselves*from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.*
31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?*
32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn*yourselves, and live ye.

13.*Every man's fate We have fastened on his own neck: On the Day of Judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll, which he will see spread open.
14.*(It will be said to him "Read thine (own) record: Sufficient is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee."
15.*Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning).
16.*When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.
17.*How many generations have We destroyed after Noah? and enough is thy Lord to note and see the sins of His servants.

Quran Chapter 17 The Children of Israel/The Night Journey

 

[Traditio]

You seem to be under the impression that Muslims buy their way to heaven, and the former being the case, you are misinformed. Rather, I think some self-introspection is due:

This could be ignorance on my part, but it seems as though it seems that you guys are constantly talking about a direct correlation between good deeds and a "reward" in the afterlife based on those good deeds. E.g., if you do such and such a thing during Ramadan, you get 4 times the reward. It's as though you Muslims think that your afterlife is going to be based on some kind of "balance" between your good and evil deeds. Of course, I could be misunderstanding this, but it seems as though you think that your "reward" in the afterlife is going to be based on God rewarding you because of how good your life was, and you will receive this reward for this reason. "I deserve it. Look how well I lived, how much I prayed, how much I gave in charitable donations, etc."

For the Christian (and according to true philosophy), as stated, this simply is nonsense. There is no proportion between our deeds and the "reward" in question. There is an infinite disproportion between man and God.

Islam recognises God's power to forgive with just His Will. Some of the other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf. In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or any type of sacrifice. We do not/cannot: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting God's will. As to salvation, that comes from the Mercy of God, and nobody else, nor from any institution.

This is a contradiction. God is Justice Itself. If His Justice demands that He exact punishment, then the Divine Will cannot contradict the Divine Justice. After all, God is One, right? [Is this not the very thing that you Muslims never tire of repeating?] A single mortal sin (i.e., a single deliberate act which violates God's Law) brings with it an infinite merit for punishment, involves a complete turning away of the sinner away from God and towards a creature, and demands exclusion from God's Kingdom. And there is nothing that we can possibly do to make up for it. We owed it to God not to have done it in the first place, and anything that we might do afterwards to make up for it, is already owed in justice. It gains us no merits, no forgiveness. Justice, all other things being equal, and there being no other relevent considerations, demands that God exact the punishment which is owed. Your hope in God's mercy, as stated, is groundless and in vain. God. Is. Justice. Such is, I think, as St. Anselm describes in Cur Deus Homo (Why God [became] a Man).

From a salvation point of view, according to current day Christianity, yes.

No, no. In fact. "And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain, for you are yet in your sins" (1 Corinthians 15:17).

Every mortal sin involves wholly turning your back on God. It is a violation, a breach of His Law. It heaps on us infinite merit for condemnation and retribution. Nothing we can do can make up for it, and God will not simply "shrug off" our crimes. He is the Supremely Just Judge. If Jesus has not won for us infinite merits on the Cross, if He has not paid the ransom for our sins, if blood and water has not spilled out of His Sacred Heart, if He has not died and risen from the dead for our salvation, then we have nothing to balance the scales of justice, and God will do what is Just. We must pay for our sins.

In Christianity, because of Adam (peace be upon him) eating from the tree, humans became imperfect, and not only Adam (peace be upon him), but all subsequent generations have to bear a punishment from God, fell out of grace with God, mankind's relationship with God was severed, they are born into a state of sin, and death entered the world.

It's not even the sin of Adam that I'm primarily concerned with. It's my sins that really have me concerned. Consider the strict and narrow requirements of morality (not, of course, the morality of your prophet, but of what we can know by natural reason; consider the demands of temperance, justice, prudence and fortitude), and consider all of the times that you yourself have violated them. Consider all of the times that you have failed "to love the Lord, thy God with all of your heart, mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself." Today. This week. This month. This year. Your entire life. Add it up. And consider that you have no way of making up for it (consider Luke 7:42).

The only thing that can rectify all of that, is a perfect sacrifice, i.e. the sacrifice of what they perceive to be a perfect man. Through what they perceive to be his death and resurrection, they believe that that broken relationship is repaired and that man is reconciled with God. Salvation and reconciliation with God can only be achieved through the crucifixion and acceptance of Jesus (peace be upon him) as their saviour, who they believe died for their sins, and to give them eternal life.

Jesus Christ, Divine Mercy Itself, being fully God and fully man, offered up a sacrifice which justly could not be exacted from Him. Being sinless and not deserving of death, He was put to death for our salvation. Being God, the merits He won were infinite. Being man, He won those merits on man's behalf, thereby balancing the scales of justice for all who are incorporated into His body through Divine Charity, i.e., the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, who is Charity/Divine Love Itself.

If that hasn't happened, we are still dead in our sins with absolutely no hope of redemption, and we have the grim assurance that our debts will be collected in due time.

It shows a God who will not forgive, punishes other people for a sin they didn't commit, cuts off his relationship with them, makes them fall out of His grace, and makes them born into a state of sin, and then has an innocent man (who actually is Him) begotten, then killed in a torturous death to repair all of that.

God. Is. Justice. Contemplate that, and you may realize how hollow your assertion "It shows a God who will not forgive" sounds. Furthermore, God didn't cut off His relationship with us. We cut off our relationship with Him, i.e., by sinning. I don't merely mean the original sin of Adam; I mean, in addition, our personal sins, i.e., the ones for which we are personally responsible. Every time you violated God's law, every time you deliberately did something significantly morally wrong, you yourself have made yourself an enemy of God. You have irretrievably, irredeemably, with no hope of going back, turned your back on God and denied God as the highest object of your love and as your Lawgiver and Lord.

In order to rectify this, a special action of God, i.e., the infusion of Divine Grace, vis-a-vis the charity of the Holy Ghost, is necessary. But you don't deserve it. Not in the least. You deserve the opposite. You deserve to be left to your own sins, to your own wretched desires (I mean no offense; for wretched, miserable and perverted are the hearts of men). You (and I, for among sinners, "I am the first") deserve to pay for your crimes forever and receive punishment without end in Hell. That is what Justice demands. And. God. Is. Justice.

Compare with Islam:

God forgave Adam (peace be upon him), and guided him, and has sent guidance for us all, and can forgive us all, freely, when we repent sincerely and ask sincerely, resolving not to repeat past mistakes, and does not expect perfection from us, but simply for us to worship Him alone without any associates, persons or parts to His Exclusive Divinity, and to not ascribe divinity to anybody or anything else, and to do our very best and try our very hardest with all our heart, body and soul, to love and obey Him and the messengers He sent. His Mercy opening the doors to salvation and paradise.

In other words: the Islamic God isn't Just. But a God who is not Just is not God.

God is indeed Most Just, which is why nobody carries the sins of another. He doesn't make innocent people die for the sins of others. That is supreme injustice ascribed to God.

We are each responsible for and accountable for our own deeds, good or bad, and for the choices we make in life, each choice having a consequence. Nobody else is responsible for them or carries them away. No innocent person is made to suffer or die for other's sins. Babies are not born in a state of sin, but a state of innocence and purity. There is no concept of original sin, nor of God expecting perfection which cannot be achieved, nor of a broken relationship with God that requires reconciling, nor of ****ation requiring a saviour. Forgiveness is directly from God. Prayer is directly to God. God is the God of all, even of those who don't believe in Him.

1. Original sin doesn't imply personal guilt for those born of Adam.

2. If the Islamic God does not expect perfection, then once again, the Islamic God is not God. Thus is displayed the true wisdom of the Christian Faith, for Jesus counsels: "Be you therefore perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:48). Does the Islamic God not expect perfection in our moral conduct? Does He not expect us to adhere to the "straight and narrow" path of right living? But this is owed in Justice. If God does not expect it, then God is not Just, for Justice Itself demands it. And. God. Is. Justice.

In Islam, as Adam (peace be upon him) asked for forgiveness and was forgiven

In expectation of Jesus' sacrifice. The Old Testament patriarchs were forgiven and saved through the blood of Jesus, our paschal sacrifice.

 

[greenhill]

So we have moved on from the OP to the subject of heaven.

I wished the quoted response had the poster info so I can see where it came from and sequence as some rebuttal seemed at tangents.

You repeated many times that God.Is.Justice. The Muslims believe in Allah, the name, His Name. To know Him, know His Names. The foremost two ir-Rohman and ir-Roheem. And both names reflect a 'forgiving (and caring?) nature. Allah has many other names (97 other). So Allah is not just about Justice. Now He is the Most Forgiving, All Seeing, Hearing, Dispenser of Affairs, Sustainer etc and when the time comes for judgment, there will be justice, as Allah is also a Judge Most Fair.

I'm still grappling with trying to address your rather detailed dissection of abstract points about heaven and how impossible it is to get there. :hmm:

I'll stop here for now because typing on this phone is a real pain...

eace:



What is the underlying message in all what we are trying to say is that we should never be presumptuous.

 

[Abz2000]

it's easy to get to heaven anyways.
ryanair, easyjet, emirates, turkish airlines are among a few that can help.
getting to the gardens of Paradise requires a little more effort though.

seems like the translators of the new testament got lost in translation somewhere- or maybe assumed the since Jesus was waiting the duration in heaven before completing the task that it must've been the same thing.
God knows.

God makes a clear distinction in the Quran,
rijzan min al samaa doesn't mean "(abomination/punishment of destruction) from paradise", it means "(abomination/punishment of destruction) from the sky.

i saw satan appearing as lightning from the heavens (luke 10:18) ("baraq o bama" in hebrew) also doesn't mean satan appearing as lightening from paradise.
bama means high place/stage/elevated place apparently.

O Allah, please protect the Muslims from obama's drones.

 

[Traditio]

I wished the quoted response had the poster info so I can see where it came from and sequence as some rebuttal seemed at tangents.

It's all coming from the previous post by Insaanah.

You repeated many times that God.Is.Justice.

Well, there are two reasons for that. 1. I thought it was an important point to hammer in. 2. Rhetorically, I thought it sounded good when read aloud.

The Muslims believe in Allah, the name, His Name. To know Him, know His Names. The foremost two ir-Rohman and ir-Roheem. And both names reflect a 'forgiving (and caring?) nature. Allah has many other names (97 other). So Allah is not just about Justice. Now He is the Most Forgiving, All Seeing, Hearing, Dispenser of Affairs, Sustainer etc and when the time comes for judgment, there will be justice, as Allah is also a Judge Most Fair.

But "God is one," isn't He? Isn't this the very thing of which Muslims never tire of repeating to Christian? Do you insist on nothing else more vehemently? "God is one." I agree. God is The One Itself, and I take my start from what Plato says in the Parmenides: "The One is not many." If, then, we are to refuse to divide the One (and Muslims, at least seemingly, insist that we must not divide or multiply the One God), how, then, can you expect me to be impressed when you speak of 99 names of God, as though one attribute of God possibly could "cancel out" or "outweigh" another?

No, I affirm emphatically: "The One is not many," and "God is One." If, therefore, we predicate a pure perfection positively of the One God, we must not be deluded by language into thinking that it is one thing for God to be God and another thing for God to be that which we predicate of Him. You say that God is merciful? I agree, but understand: it is not one thing for God to be God, another thing for God to be merciful. God is Mercy Itself. The very essence of God is Mercy. [To deny this would be to divide the One God.] And likewise on with all other pure perfections: God is wise, good, true, beautiful, loving? Yes, but even moreso: God is Wisdom Itself, Goodness Itself, Truth Itself, Beauty Itself, Charity Itself.

Therefore, is God just or not? To deny this would be blasphemy. But if you affirm it, then you must agree with me: "God is Justice Itself." It is not one thing for God to be God, another thing for God to be just. The very nature of God is Justice. Will you tell me that God's Justice is merciful? I'll agree with you, and so will the multitudes of the souls in Hell who have been condemned forever because of their sins, for God is merciful even to them: He prevented them from heaping up even greater guilt upon themselves while they lived.

If God is Justice Itself, I say, then what you Muslims have said cannot be true. Unless Christ has died and risen from the dead, unless the blood of Jesus has been shed to pray the price of our sins, God cannot be "all forgiving," for He is Justice, and Justice is not all-forgiving (unless there be just occassion for it). Justice renders to each precisely according to his due. It does not say: "Well, here are your crimes, but look at all of these good things that you have done, so I'll overlook them." No. Justice, all else being equal, and there being no other relevent concerns, requires that you be given the due punishment for every single one of your crimes against God's Holy Law (any serious one of which merits everlasting punishment). You are guilty, and God is Justice. Contemplate that.

Again, I urge you and the rest of you Muslims: consider the gravity of any one of your sins. Consider the purity of the Law that you have violated. Consider the Infinite Majesty of the God that you have offended. And seriously consider the weight of your sins. What do you justly deserve?

I'm still grappling with trying to address your rather detailed dissection of abstract points about heaven and how impossible it is to get there. :hmm:

I have a more detailed account of this in the "Jesus was a Muslim" thread, in my extended posting under the heading "Islam." There's a quote from a metaphysics lecture of mine.