Do christians worship God (not Jesus)?

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Conflict between established churches

Theodore Zahn, for instance,illustrates the bitter conflicts within the orthodox churches.He points out that the Roman Catholics accuse the Greek orthodox Church of remodelling the text of the holy scriptures by additions and subtractions with good and bad intentions,the Greeks in turn point out that the Catholics themselves in places depart very far from the original text and in spite of their differences, they combine to accuse the non-conformist Christians deviating from the "the true way" and condemn them as heretics,and the heretics in their turn accuse the catholics of "having re-coined the Truth like forgers" He concludes. "Do not facts support these accusation".
 
Due to Paul discontinuity with historical Jesus

the discontinuity between the historical Jesus and the christ of the Church became so great that any unity between them is scarcely recognisable.


WHO FOUNDED CHRISTIANITY?

If by Christianity we understand faith in Christ as the heavenly Son of God, who did not belong to earthly humanity,but who lived in the Divine likeness and glory,who came down from Heaven to earth,Who entered humanity and took upon himself a human form through a virgin, that he might make propitiation for men's sins by his own blood upon the Cross, who was then awakened from death and raised to the right hand of God,as the Lord of his own people, who believe in him, who hears their prayers,guards and leads them, who,moreover,dwells and works personally in each of them, who will come again with clouds of Heaven to judge the world, who will cast down all the foes of God, and will bring his own people with him unto home of heavenly light so that they may become like His glorified body-"IF THIS IS CHRISTIANITY,THEN SUCH CHRISTIANITY WAS FOUNDED BY ST.PAUL,NOT BY OUR LORD"(Dr. Arnold Meyer,Prof. of theology,Zurich University:Jesus/paul)
 
Well, I think that Mr. Zahn has some good points in your first post. But to say with Dr. Meyer that Christianity was "founded" by Paul is, I believe, overstating. Remember, Paul begins as an opponent of Christianity and has to be converted to it. He then adopted the views of those he was persecuting and pressed their case (not his own) by taking the message to the gentile world. It is the latter, not a change in fundamental theology, that we can chiefly credit to Paul. Without his influence, Christianity might have remained a sect within Judaism at least until the Jewish revolt and subsequent destruction of Jerusalem in the latter half of the first century.
 
Without his influence, Christianity might have remained a sect within Judaism at least until the Jewish revolt and subsequent destruction of Jerusalem in the latter half of the first century.
I agree that Christianity was a "sect within Judaism" until the Roman destruction of Jerusalum in 70AD, which BTW was about the time the 4 gospels were written. Had the Jewish revolt not occured, Christianity may not even exist today as a world religion.
 
I agree that Christianity was a "sect within Judaism" until the Roman destruction of Jerusalum in 70AD, which BTW was about the time the 4 gospels were written. Had the Jewish revolt not occured, Christianity may not even exist today as a world religion.


Yes, perhaps Judaism would have learned to accept their Messiah. Or perhaps, as I tend to believe, God arranged for Jesus' arrival at just the point in time where all the things necessary for the development and disperal of the Christian Gospel came together in a perfect storm of historical coincidences.

As you say, Allah knows best.
 
The prophets in the Old Testament said that Christ would be rejected by his own people (i.e.Hebrews). It was phophesied (spelling?) that he would be rejected by his home town, Nazareth. In fact when he preached in Nazareth, he was run out of town.

Many say that Christianity is a form of Judaism to this day. The difference being that Christians are members of the Jewish faith that believe in Christ. Of course most Christians are considered gentiles by the New and Old Testament. Christ came for everyone not just the Hebrews.
 
The prophets in the Old Testament said that Christ would be rejected by his own people (i.e.Hebrews). It was phophesied (spelling?) that he would be rejected by his home town, Nazareth. In fact when he preached in Nazareth, he was run out of town.

Many say that Christianity is a form of Judaism to this day. The difference being that Christians are members of the Jewish faith that believe in Christ. Of course most Christians are considered gentiles by the New and Old Testament. Christ came for everyone not just the Hebrews.

I think that in our faith very important is the belief that Christ life was Yahve's mission. The Yahve from Old Testament worshipped since thousands years by the jews.
 
About the Belief”Jesus is God"

Jesus was turned into God, about three centuries after his death, in part, through a misunderstanding of the word "god." This misunderstanding developed gradually as Christianity evolved. The word "god" in the ancient times, meant "spirit" or "angel" After Jesus died, he became a spirit or an angel -- angels are spirits and are not "od".

There is a big difference between "a god" and "God": "a god" is a noun, whereas "God" is a name. No verse in the New Testament reads "Jesus is God." Yet, today's Christians believe so. The faith of Christianity is based on the misunderstanding that "Jesus is God." Christians also believe that those who reject the belief "Jesus is God" will go to Hell, where they will suffer unbearable pains forever.

No person in the world, who is sane (mentally healthy and able to make rational decisions), would want to undergo the pains in Hell. Why, then, millions and millions of Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, and others, who are sane and believe in God, have rejected the belief "Jesus is God"? Is it because they are ignorant of what the New Testament says about Jesus? Or is it because they lack in faith? ... Neither one! They know what the New Testament says and they have faith in God. Besides, one does not need faith to identify Jesus. He or she needs knowledge. Anyone with an open mind (the willingness to learn) can learn about who Jesus was.
 
About the Belief”Jesus is God"

Jesus was turned into God, about three centuries after his death, in part, through a misunderstanding of the word "god." This misunderstanding developed gradually as Christianity evolved. The word "god" in the ancient times, meant "spirit" or "angel" After Jesus died, he became a spirit or an angel -- angels are spirits and are not "od".

There is a big difference between "a god" and "God": "a god" is a noun, whereas "God" is a name. No verse in the New Testament reads "Jesus is God." Yet, today's Christians believe so. The faith of Christianity is based on the misunderstanding that "Jesus is God." Christians also believe that those who reject the belief "Jesus is God" will go to Hell, where they will suffer unbearable pains forever.

No person in the world, who is sane (mentally healthy and able to make rational decisions), would want to undergo the pains in Hell. Why, then, millions and millions of Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, and others, who are sane and believe in God, have rejected the belief "Jesus is God"? Is it because they are ignorant of what the New Testament says about Jesus? Or is it because they lack in faith? ... Neither one! They know what the New Testament says and they have faith in God. Besides, one does not need faith to identify Jesus. He or she needs knowledge. Anyone with an open mind (the willingness to learn) can learn about who Jesus was.

This does not make sense on several grounds:

1) The Old Testament was a product of the Jewish faith and the Jews did have a name for God. It was so holy that they would not speak it aloud, but they certainly knew it. It was these Jews that were the first Christians and these Jews who wrote the New Testament. They would not have made the mistake you speak of in changing the concept from God to a god.

2) The New Testament was not only written but codified, in its entirety, before the date you specify. Though each individual can forever interpret Jesus however he/she sees fit, the identity of who Jesus is cannot be turned into something new after the NT canon is effectively closed.

3) In asserting that Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Muslims are neither ignorant nor lacking faith, but know what the NT says about Jesus, you are by implication asserting that it is today's Christians who do not themselves know what the NT says about Jesus and that this change occured around 300 AD. In essence you are saying that while Jews, Jehovah's Witness, and Muslims are neither ignorant nor lacking in faith that Christians are at least one, if not both.
3a) However, reality is that the split between Jewish and Christian understanding of who Jesus was occurred in the first generation of the church, and was the reason for the initial persecution of Christians that one finds recorded in the New Testament book of Acts itself.
3b) Jehovah's Witnesses are a 19th century product of groups who thought they had a new interpretation (or reinterpretation) of the Bible. That same Bible has been available for 20 centuries and Jehovah's Witnesses remain unique among those who accept the Bible for guidance as to their understanding of who Jesus is. Is it not more likely that we have a small group who has misinterpreted the Bible rather than the larger body who has done so? This is especially true when many in the larger body have been willing to challenge the authority of the larger body and one another within that body on so many other different issues of interpretation, yet they have maintained basic agreement on this particular understanding so much so that the articulations of those basic understanding with regard to Christ are still referred to as ecumenical creeds.
3c) Muslims get their understanding of Jesus not from the New Testament, but from what they claim is another revelation that contradicts the New Testament. Hence Muslims do indeed have a lack of faith in the Biblical presentation of who Jesus is for their view of who Jesus is comes from the Qur'an, not the Bible.


4) The term "Son of God" has been applied to Jesus in all Christian writings from the very beginning and is found in the very earliest fragments of manuscripts dating back to the first century. Given the theory that the word "god" in the ancient times, meant "spirit" or "angel" then these authors would have been saying that Jesus was the son of a spirit or an angel. Yet, such theology is specifically declared otherwise within the New Testament itself: "He [the Son] became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs" (Hebrews 1:4); "God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth" (Philippians 2:8-9); "for God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him [Christ Jesus]" (Colossian 1:19).

5) The word that we translate into English as "God" is the Greek word "theos", and while both earlier Greek society and the first century Roman society (that used the Greek language as the common language of the day) had a multipliciy gods, the term "theos" still meant a god, not merely an angel or some other spiritual being, and in Christian usage reflected the Hebrew practice of the Old Testament in speaking of God in personal terms in also asserting that there was only the one god who was God. (Sort of the same way that Muslims say there is no god but Allah.) "We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods..., yet for us there is but one God" (1Corinthians 8:4-6). Thus to have made Jesus some lesser god would be even more of a violation of Christianity's monotheistic faith than the Trinity which you protest against.


6) Christianity has never taught what you assert that dead humans become angels or other types of spirits --not since 300 AD, not prior to 300 AD (nor did Judaism before it). This is pure paganism.

Each of these points individually shows a signficant mistake made in arriving at the proposed arguement that Christians might have thought differently of Jesus prior to 300 AD than they do today. Taken together they suggest that the whole idea is so seriously flawed as to not be credible.
 
About the Belief”Jesus is God"

Jesus was turned into God, about three centuries after his death, in part, through a misunderstanding of the word "god." This misunderstanding developed gradually as Christianity evolved. The word "god" in the ancient times, meant "spirit" or "angel" After Jesus died, he became a spirit or an angel -- angels are spirits and are not "od".

There is a big difference between "a god" and "God": "a god" is a noun, whereas "God" is a name. No verse in the New Testament reads "Jesus is God." Yet, today's Christians believe so. The faith of Christianity is based on the misunderstanding that "Jesus is God."

The Bible says that Jesus is the 'Son' of God. And it's true that Jesus nowhere says in the Bible, 'I am God, worship me,' but if a person said this to you would you believe him? In spite of all this, the Bible makes it clear who he is and what his purpose was:


'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world: but that the world through him might be saved.' John 3:16-17.





Even God the Father testified to who he was, as evidenced here:
'And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.' Matthew 3: 16-17




Christians also believe that those who reject the belief "Jesus is God" will go to Hell, where they will suffer unbearable pains forever.

No person in the world, who is sane (mentally healthy and able to make rational decisions), would want to undergo the pains in Hell. Why, then, millions and millions of Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, and others, who are sane and believe in God, have rejected the belief "Jesus is God"? Is it because they are ignorant of what the New Testament says about Jesus? Or is it because they lack in faith? ... Neither one! They know what the New Testament says and they have faith in God. Besides, one does not need faith to identify Jesus. He or she needs knowledge. Anyone with an open mind (the willingness to learn) can learn about who Jesus was.

It is because this is a fallen world, and the world as a whole is living deceived lives. On top of that you have people walking around thinking themselves Christians and they don't have an ounce of Jesus, basically they serve as stumbling blocks for those who are truly looking for the truth. Just because you belong to a church and go there every Sunday, you give tithes and offerings, and you do good works, that doesn't make you a Christian. Here's what Jesus said about himself:

'Verily, verily I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house forever, but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.' John 8: 34-36.

Here's what Paul wrote: 'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?' Romans 6: 1-2.

Here's what's in 1 John: 'All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.' 1 John 5: 17-19.

We as human beings have to be born again, born of the incorruptible spirit of God.

'But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in they heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with they mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thy heart that God hath raised Jesus from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.' Romans 10: 8-10.
 
It is so much easier to opt for a simplistic and naive monism which gives you a notion of the divine being which is only a tad cleverer and more profound than we are. The Biblical conception of God, for both Jews and Christians, is of someone who is utterly beyond human understanding except for his willingess to reveal himself through his dealings with the Jewish people before Christ, and then through the revelation of himself in the person of Jesus Christ. I think Jesus revealed his true nature progressively so that those who knew him gradually learned more about his full identity. Initially. they saw him as a wonderful teacher but later they saw him as a prophet and latterly as God. That Jesus was, in himself, God made man has never been easy to comprehend. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity was not imposed onto the New Testament as some falsely and deceitfully assert. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is the consequence of what the first eyewitnesses discovered about and through Jesus himself. We are all of us entirely dependent upon the testimony of the first Christians in the New Testament which was written by the community of people founded by Jesus and included his disciples, friends and even his own family. There is no substitute for reading the original testimony and then do your very best to make sense of it. It is a mystery.

Please take this on board: more than anyone, it is Jesus Himself who speaks (to us) of God as Father, of himself as THE Son (not a son), and Jesus is the one who sends the Holy Spirit of God upon those who believe in him.
 
I think from an outsiders view the descriptions in the Bible of key moments in the mission of Jesus make it is impossible to accept his divinity.

1) His abandonment by his disciples at the most crucial time. Would they have done this had they truly believed he was God?

2) his fear of death and praying to God?
Matthew 26:39 “And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me:
nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

3) His begging for help and beeseaching Gods aide? Does a divine being (even if in a human form) not know they are a divine being and really they are not going to die? hey they are immortal?
“my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)
 
I think from an outsiders view the descriptions in the Bible of key moments in the mission of Jesus make it is impossible to accept his divinity.
Impossible huh?

1) His abandonment by his disciples at the most crucial time. Would they have done this had they truly believed he was God?

True belief is the right way to put it. One can say "I believe", but until faced with a situation where they must actually make a "leap of faith", they don't really know the extent of their belief. Christ knew, for example, that Peter would deny Him. It served as a lesson. It isn't enough to say you believe. One must believe with all their heart and spirit. That faith wasn't really tested, in Peter's case, until Christ was taken away, beaten, and at the mercy of His captors. Did Peter love Christ enough, love God enough, to put his own life in danger by admitting he was Christ's disciple? It is easy to say "yes" to a question like that when you're life isn't literally in danger.

2) his fear of death and praying to God?
Matthew 26:39 “And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me:
nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

Christ had to pray like all of us. That was His human nature. Jesus was not the Almighty staring through a "halloween" mask in the body of a human. He worshipped and worshipped often. He was the ultimate example of how to worship God. He did not have a network text messaging service to Heaven, just as the rest of humanity did not. That was the point.

3
) His begging for help and beeseaching Gods aide? Does a divine being (even if in a human form) not know they are a divine being and really they are not going to die? hey they are immortal?
“my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)

Christ said that He was leaving to return to the Father, so yes He did know He was "immortal" as you put it.

As for Matthew 27:46, that is referring to separation from God. Christ became our substitute. So Christ's human form, the form of Man, was abandoned by God. Sin must be punished. Christ took the punishment for all sin on Himself, so God might never forsake us.

Of course that doesn't mean Christ was literally and eternally "forsaken" by God, as that isn't the case. It also doesn't mean Christ was asking the question in the context of expecting or needing an answer. He was referring to Psalm 22, most believe. Which would make sense if one looks at verse 24, which states: "For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; nor has He hidden His face from him; but when he cried to Him for help, He heard."
 
Kelt, would it be accurate to say that Jesus then was a really nice and devout chap specially created by God, who had a special relationship with God but had no powers of his own and was simply a human?
 
Please take this on board: more than anyone, it is Jesus Himself who speaks (to us) of God as Father, of himself as THE Son (not a son), and Jesus is the one who sends the Holy Spirit of God upon those who believe in him.
Yes, THE Son of MAN, that is!
 
I've never quite grasped the concept of the trinity and the manner in which it was conceptualized. Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Is this a sort of supernatural devolution of divine power into 3 distinct entities?

How exactly does that concept work regarding accountability in the after life? that's also something im very keen to learn more about.
 
Kelt, would it be accurate to say that Jesus then was a really nice and devout chap specially created by God, who had a special relationship with God but had no powers of his own and was simply a human?


NO. At least that is not what I believe with regard to Jesus.

What you propose is something similar to what Arius believed. Arius even had a favorite saying that went something like: "There was a time when he (Jesus) was not." He held that Jesus was fully human but not fully God. And this was easily predicated, in Arius' view, on the simple fact that Jesus had a birthday, or in some other sense (according to scripture) "begotten". Even if one were to accept the assertion of John 1 (that Jesus was in some sense the Word and the Word was God), Arius still believe that this Word (the Greek is Logos) was somehow a lesser, inferior deity. Perhaps close to God, but still exterior to God and thus a product of God's creation.

Opposing Arius was Athanasius who distinguished between "generation" and "creation". According to Athanasius, the Son was generated (or begotten) by the Father from eternity, but had no beginning. This was because this generation was eternal and internal to God who exists outide of time. Whereas, creation was in time and external to God. The Son, Athanasius argued, was therefore homoousios (being of the same substance) and co-eternal with the Father, not simply homoiousios (beiing of similar substance) to God as some Arians claimed.

In Greek it is only the difference in the letter "i" in the middle of the word, but it means a huge difference in Christian theology.

First, it is the difference between having two gods, and greater and a lesser (what Christians are often accused of), and understanding that there is just one God (what Christians actually believe) who himself exists in an eternal divine community within himself.

Second, if Christ is not the eternal God who created the universe, then this means that God sent a second to bridge the gap which exists between humankind and God. (For Christians do believe that a gap exists.) Christians do not believe that God sent a creature in order to simply show us how to bridge that gap, for that would make bridging it something that we were responsible for doing in our own power. And we do not think that human kind has the ability to make itself better without divine intervention. We need more than a wonderful example, we need a savior. It's the difference between a religion which says to us "try harder," and the belief that God is the one who has done what it takes to deliver us, through the incarnation and the cross.

Third, if Christ is just some devout chap specially created by God, then we are left without knowledge of God, for God remains hidden from us. Again, Christianity proclaims that Christ does not offer us secondhand, indirect knowledge of God, but the direct experience of a relationship with the eternal God in and through placing one's personal trust in Jesus Christ to be able to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. On the other hand, if you and Arius are right, then the love we find in Christ is really external to God. If Christ does not fully know God, can we fully trust him to deliver us?

Fourth, why should anyone want to offer praise to the God of Arius? Why should we want to emulate this "good chap", when God remains distanct from us, an insulated ruler who cannot involve himself intimately with his creation?

It is true, some of the verses cited here, that Jesus was limited by his humanity. Scripture tells us that though he was equal with God that he did not count such equality as something to be grasped and emptied himself of it in becoming incarnate as a human being (Philippians 2:5ff). So, he did hunger, thirst, tire, experience a full range of human emotions including sorrow and a desire to not face his mortality. But none of these things are with regard to his divine essence, and there a plenty of passages that speak to the full diety of Christ:

For us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:6)
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Colossian 1:16-17)
In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form. (Colossians 2:9)
We wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. (Titus 2:13)
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. (Romans 9:5)

All texts by Paul who, according to his own testimony, "according to the strictest sect of our religion, I lived as a Pharisee" (Acts 26:5), a group that was charged with protecting the Law of Moses and would never compromise their monotheistic faith. Philippians 2 does not make sense if Jesus is just a devout chap. It only makes sense if Jesus is the pre-existant God incarnate. And Paul goes on to say (Philippians 2:9-11) that this man has been given the name which is above every name.
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
(Philippians 2:9-11)​
That name which is above every name for Paul, the devout Pharisee, is the tetragrammaton (YHWH), the name that Jews even today cannot even speak -- this is the name that is to be given to Jesus.

What is particularly striking in this passage from Philippians is how Paul anchors it in the Tanakah:
"Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.

By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear
.
(Isaiah 45:22-23)​

I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not give my glory to another
or my praise to idols.
(Isaiah 42:8)​

In affirming that this name and this glory belong to Jesus, Paul is applying some of the strongest affirmations about the unique sovereignty and identity of the God of the Tanakah to the person of Jesus Christ. And that is why Christian cannot accept that Jesus is just some devout chap.

And of course it isn't just Paul, John does it as well in just putting this simple affirmation of who Jesus is on the lips of the disciple Thomas following the resurrection, greeting him as "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). I think it took the resurrection for the disciples to come to this awareness. But most certainly Jesus is more than just some special chap; for those of us who accept the testimony of the Bible, that option isn't open to us.
 
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I've never quite grasped the concept of the trinity and the manner in which it was conceptualized. Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Is this a sort of supernatural devolution of divine power into 3 distinct entities?

How exactly does that concept work regarding accountability in the after life? that's also something im very keen to learn more about.


The trinity is not about the dividing of power, it is about describing the one God in greater detail. It is to focus on the 3 leaflets of the 1 cloverleaf. Each is unique and distinct from the other three as are the 5 fingers on a single hand, but they are nonetheless all a part of the whole. And yet there is a oneness to them that the picture I just painted for you doesn't properly convey.

The problem came about for Christians, when being good Jews who knew that there was just one and only one God, they experienced encountering that one God in the person of Jesus Christ and in the internal presence of God's Spirit moving in their lives also a a real presence of God (not some messenger). They had no language to express this and so struggled to find a way to convey articulate. Of course, those who wrote the New Testament didn't have so much of a struggle because they had themselves lived it. Even if they didn't have a word or phrase to describe it, they had the actual experience they could always point back to. But the next generation needed a word for it, and eventually they adopted used of the term "trinity" (you might think of tri-unity) to express what they understood the authors of the New Testament to be writing about with regard to how there was just one God who existed in three distinct personas, yet still being of just one essence.

I suppose you might think of it as a dance. That is while there may be two dancers moving about each other, it is only a dance as long as both are present. Focus on either alone (which it is possible to do) and it is no longer a dance, but some other sort of movement. For a dance (at least to my way of thinking) always involves the movement of one in harmony with another to make a whole.

Of course, the infinite God is so much more than a cloverleaf, or a hand, or even a dance that I do an injustice to God to try to describe him with finite terms at all. And I suppose that is a problem with even the best description of the Trinity (which I do not pretend I am capable of offering), for we are stuck with using finite human words to describe the infinite and incomprehensible mystery of God.
 
a question, do christians believe God can to an extent become part of or join with his creation?
if so then christianity is somewhat pantheistic?
 
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a question, do christians believe God can to an extent become part of or join with his creation?
if so then christianity is somewhat pantheistic?

We do believe that God became incarnate. Indeed we believe that in Jesus God experienced the full range of human experiences. But we don't think of that as becoming part of creation. Christianity speaks of Christ as being one person having two natures. We must be careful not to so seperate them that Jesus is not both God and man at once -- that would be the error of Nestorianism, and yet not so combine them as to make Jesus into some sort of hybrid God-man -- that would be the error of Eutychianism. As such we are not saying that Jesus is a part of God, that would be pantheism. And we are most certainly not saying that God is all or that everything is God. We think there is a distinction between the creator and that which is created. What we believe is that God can put on his creation and exist within it as immanently as he is able to exist transcendently apart from it. While it might appear to have some similarities to pantheistic thought, I really don't think they are compatible.
 

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