Do christians worship God (not Jesus)?

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Yes, but Keltoi, the question isn't about whether God demands that one keep his law, but why in some circumstances we see that one can achieve reconcilation from the brokeness simply by repentance alone and in other circumstances it requires blood atonement. Why is blood required in one circumstance but not in another? And if the father in the parable is suppose to be a typology for God and he doesn't require it when Jesus is himself telling the story, then why do we assume that God requires blood atonement when the closest that Jesus comes to speaking on the subject is a case where repentance alone is enough?


But, Mustafa, in thinking about that parable again, the truth is that in that case not even repentance is required. Though the boy is going to repent, the father in the story doesn't even give him a chance to repent, but meets him before he is able to say all that he has rehearsed to say and accepts him simply on seeing him. ("But, while he [the boy] was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him." Luke 15:20)

The point is that even in the midst of his sinfulness he was still and always would be the father's son, that this is something that the boy had never lost except by his own abandoment of his father. Return, without even repentance being necessary, restores the relationship in the parable.
 
And if the father in the parable is suppose to be a typology for God and he doesn't require it when Jesus is himself telling the story, then why do we assume that God requires blood atonement when the closest that Jesus comes to speaking on the subject is a case where repentance alone is enough?
Thank you for getting the point I was trying to make.
The point is that even in the midst of his sinfulness he was still and always would be the father's son, that this is something that the boy had never lost except by his own abandoment of his father. Return, without even repentance being necessary, restores the relationship in the parable.
However, repentance (along with the father's love) was necessary to restore the relationship because the son had left his life of sin and debasement and returned to his father. Note that he did not send a message home asking for his father to send him more money so that he could continue living sinfully.

Keltoi, when I read, "By the blood of Jesus Christ, our sinful nature has been forgiven." what I understand you to say is that sin has been atoned for not forgiven. My understanding is that there is a difference between forgiveness and atonement.
 
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atone: to supply satisfaction for : expiate : to make amends

forgive: to give up resentment of or claim to requital for : to grant relief from payment of

In Christianity, does God forgive the sin of Christians or has He already atoned for it by the blood of Jesus?
 
I think that in common everyday parlance we speak of forgiveness, but if we were to be more precise and use technical language that atonement is the better term. Though I am not convinced that one needs to draw a heavy line between the two. We are atoned for and thus experience forgiveness. One being an act of God independent of the individual, and thus why it is called grace. The other being the experience of the person in their own heart and soul, something that the person can either accept or reject. (Of course, you are getting my fresh thoughts, which I may wish to revise after further reflection.)

Again using the parable to illustrate, the older brother in the story had always received the father's love, but out of bitterness and jealousy toward his brother became angry and almost walked away himself. Had he, we would have lived an experientially unforgiven life, even though he too was equally loved by his father.

The other term we need to throw in here is justification. Atonement justifies us with God. But without repentance and a return to accepting God's love (and therefore also God's will) in our lives their is still no reconciliation. It seems the parable doesn't deny the role of atonement, it just doesn't speak of it, for it is about God's love for people. If atonement was necessary because of mankind's sin that is only half the story, the story of the actual offering of atonement also needs to be told and to tell that we need to tell of God's love and faithfulness. We have three stories to that effect in Luke 15, the story of the Lost Boy and Faithful Father is just one of them.
 
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GraceSeeker, thank you for your insightful reply. However, the distinction between atonement and forgiveness is larger for me that it is for you. In reading your response, the story of the Good Samaritan came to my mind though not in the context of our usual understanding. My point is that the Samaritan saw the wounded man and had compassion for him. He took him to the inn, took care of his needs, and promised to pay what additional charges he incurred. Perhaps there is a weak analogy to atonement here.

I respect the concept of atonement. Usually we think in terms of personally making an atonement for our transgressions, or of a person in authority making an atonement for those that he is responsible for (e.g. Moses for his people after the Golden Calf). In the Christian concept, the One Who was transgressed against made the ultimate atonement/sacrifice for the transgressors. So He paid the price for reconciliation of mankind that is there for the accepting.

In Islam, we have the concept of atonement in the offsetting of a bad deed, or sin, with a good deed (like charity) or additional worship (like fasting). We also have the concept of Divine forgiveness straight away as in a dua I was reading tonight: "O Allah, I have been very unjust to myself and no one grants pardon for sins but You, so forgive me with Your forgiveness and have mercy on me. Surely, You are the Forgiver, the Merciful." No mention is made of an atonement in this case.
 
GraceSeeker, thank you for your insightful reply. However, the distinction between atonement and forgiveness is larger for me that it is for you. In reading your response, the story of the Good Samaritan came to my mind though not in the context of our usual understanding. My point is that the Samaritan saw the wounded man and had compassion for him. He took him to the inn, took care of his needs, and promised to pay what additional charges he incurred. Perhaps there is a weak analogy to atonement here.

I respect the concept of atonement. Usually we think in terms of personally making an atonement for our transgressions, or of a person in authority making an atonement for those that he is responsible for (e.g. Moses for his people after the Golden Calf). In the Christian concept, the One Who was transgressed against made the ultimate atonement/sacrifice for the transgressors. So He paid the price for reconciliation of mankind that is there for the accepting.

In Islam, we have the concept of atonement in the offsetting of a bad deed, or sin, with a good deed (like charity) or additional worship (like fasting). We also have the concept of Divine forgiveness straight away as in a dua I was reading tonight: "O Allah, I have been very unjust to myself and no one grants pardon for sins but You, so forgive me with Your forgiveness and have mercy on me. Surely, You are the Forgiver, the Merciful." No mention is made of an atonement in this case.

I suppose that would be a major difference. From my understanding, Christianity does not believe a sin can be "offset", at least not in that sense. One can repent and change their life, meaning devotion to Christ. That devotion to Christ entails an understanding that only through Christ can one's sins be forgiven.

It's an interesting discussion actually, the different understanding of how forgiveness and atonement is achieved.
 
I like how this discussion of who one worships has metamorphed into a discussion of differeing concepts of atonement and forgiveness. Yet, I think somehow it still fits, for ultimately better understanding these concepts might help us to better appreciate the similiarities and differences in the original topic.



Anyway, I appreciate the way you talk about good deeds offsetting bad deeds in Islam. From a Christian standpoint that is not what atonement is. We simply don't work with a balance sheet or set of scales. It is more like a test (be it math or spelling) and the standard for passing is 100%. You can say to the teacher that even though you got 1 wrong, that you got many more right. It doesn't change the fact that you fell short of the standard you needed to pass.

Our standard is God's holiness. Surely you don't conceive of God falling short of perfect holiness and then making up for it by doing some holy act. Well, since our standard is God's holiness, we can't make up for a bad deed by simply performing a good deed to balance out our failings.

But what does happen is that, since we understand that on the cross Christ takes on the sins of the world, Christ absolves us of all sin. And, for reasons known only to God himself, Christ's righteousness (which in Christian theology, of course, is God's own righteousness) is credited to us. And in this act of mercy, even though we are in historical fact sinners, we are spiritually justified and in God's eyes no longer viewed as sinners, but rather are seen as sons and daughters of God ourselves --worthy of joining him in paradise on account of our sinlessness.

(BTW -- again for those who seem to keep missing this concept -- this is why those who think that Christians can simply sin without fear because they are "forgiven" misunderstand completely what God is doing in Jesus Christ. We can't do whatever we want, because in being justified in God's eyes, he looks past our sin but into the direction of our heart. That heart is a repentant heart if we have come to faith in Christ and therefore presumes a desire to serve God as Christ did, living in total submission to the Father as Christ did. So, there should not even be a want to sin therein. If there is, then one needs to confess that and continue to seek forgiveness until one has matured enough to where one loves God so much with his heart that it becomes one with the Father's will and one loses even the desire to sin. So, the idea of coming to faith and then turning one's back on God's righteous ways is totally anathema to genuine Christian living.)

Atonement is what you said originally, paying the price. In terms of human justice it is closer to restitution than anything else. A group of kids are playing baseball in the backyard and hit the ball through the neighbor's window. They atone for that act not by doing a good deed and feed a homeless person or even 1000 homeless people. No amount of good deeds can offset the broken window. But the broken window can be replaced, and if the kids do that then and only then they have atoned for their actions.

This gets us to another difference between Christians and Muslims, and that is the twin concepts of original sin and inherited depravity. Christians understand that the sin of Adam and Eve was so egregious that it changed their spiritual DNA at the equivalent of the molecular level spiritually. Since we are all descended from them after that event, we have inherited corrupted spiritual DNA. We all are fallen creatures from the moment of our conception. (Jesus wasn't because he wasn't conceived in the normal way, but supernaturally by God's own action.) Thus, we all stand in need of something that was lost in us even before we were born. Before we had a chance to sin by acts of commission or ommission, we were stained by inheriting this corrupted nature.

As I understand it, Islam teaches think that we are all born as a blank slate, with a zero balance in terms of righteousness (because you do use a ledger sheet to keep track of good vs bad deeds) and born with equal capacity to choose right from wrong just as Adam and Eve had. You think that we are uneffected by their choice. Yet, if that were the case, then I suppose that the best thing to do with a child would be to kill it in the womb, so as to prevent it from ever having the chance to committ a sin, and hopefully no one actually advocates that.

That description of the spiritual blank slate is not where I come down as a Christian. Rather, because I am inheriter of the corrupted DNA from my father Adam and mother Eve, I start out life with a spiritual birthdefect. And the only cure to this birthdefect is not proving how good I can do or be despite it, but to have the whole tenor of my life changed at one's spiritual molecular level. The infusion of Christ's perfect righteousness DNA into my life is what imparts that change. Because of what Christ has done, I am no longer a sinner. I have become sinless, and only now do I reach the same spiritual place in life that Adam and Eve had when they were created. Now, I can follow God like Christ did, or I can sin like Adam did. Now, for the first time, the choice is actually mine and I am accountable for it. Prior to that, the problem wasn't so much that I sinned (though that would be bad enough), but that I simply lived apart from the knowledge and presence of God living within my life.

So forgivenss is something that I seek when I realize I have errored and strayed from my heart's desire to follow Christ in perfect submission to God. But atonement is what restores me to the place in life where I can actually make those choices and follow that desire -- a desire which I understand is also a gift from God, brought to life in me by the presence of the Holy Spirit.
 
Hi bro Grace Seeker...how is going on? and life?....wow your comments of the forum seems like to happening...i am not gonna comments...just let it be!...
:thumbs_up
 
Hi bro Grace Seeker...how is going on? and life?....wow your comments of the forum seems like to happening...i am not gonna comments...just let it be!...
:thumbs_up

Suffiyan, don't be afraind to make comments, even to engage in debate. This is, after all, a forum devoted to Islam. It is just in that one particular thread devoted to asking question of Christians (and a similar one dedicated to asking questions of Jews) that we try to limit debate.

As to your question here, life is good. In fact, you might join with in a statement we say in my church often, yet one that I think we can both agree on:

God is good; all the time.
All the time; God is good.


Peace. سلام
 
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yeah....i dont understand....the concept that the JEwS and christian...believe sometime mistaken like in their believes...i found out sometime people mistake Jews is christian....!....because they shared the same prophets.....Jew and christian fall into the same clan....the last came islam...! as a muslim that believe that the books before islam....like injeel,torah and psalm...! for me as a speaker, that Jesus spoke that JEsus told that there a splendor and a conforter after me....what he means is...Muhammad SAW...is the the splendor conforter....name Ahmad/muhammad in the books of JEWs...!
 
for me as a speaker, that Jesus spoke that JEsus told that there a splendor and a conforter after me....what he means is...Muhammad SAW...is the the splendor conforter....name Ahmad/muhammad in the books of JEWs...!

Interesting that you should accept as true that Jesus spoke of sending another comforter when most Muslims don't accept the books of the Bible as being true. But since you accept at least that statement as being true, did you see what Jesus also said with regard to that future comforter that would be after him? He said:
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Comforter to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. (John 14:16-17)
Now if this future comforter is supposed to be Muhammad (pbuh), then Jesus is saying that Muhammad (p) must live with you and is in you.

Also note that it says that this comforter is sent by "the Father" and is called "the Spirit of Truth". If this passage is true, and if it refers to Muhammad, then why didn't Muhammad tell us that he was sent by "the Father"? Why did Muhammad deny the role of the Spirit and instead turn the Spirit into an angel (something that Jesus never mentions here or any place else)?


Jesus also says, with regard to this Spirit that he is going to send:
It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me. (John 16:7-9)
Yet, we do not see Muhammad doing these things (i.e. tell people that they are sinning simply because they do not believe in Jesus).

So, how is it that you can believe in Muhammad being this Comforter when he doesn't do any of the things that the Comforter is supposed to do?


And note also that in saying that Jesus is going to send the Comforter, the word used in the Greek implies the concept that the one being sent comes to be in association with Jesus' disciples to help

Perhaps it is because you don't really believe the Bible, but want to cherry pick out of it just those few things that might lend some aid to your cause. If to, then what you have is little more than this:
John 14:16 And I will ask (deleted), and he will give you another Comforter to be with you forever— 17(deleted).​
Even this isn't true about Muhammad, for while the testimony of Muhammad might still be with us, Muhammad himself is not, yet the Comforter is to be with us forever. Seems a pretty big stretch to make this fit Muhammad.
 
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...That heart is a repentant heart if we have come to faith in Christ and therefore presumes a desire to serve God as Christ did, living in total submission to the Father as Christ did...

... Now, I can follow God like Christ did, or I can sin like Adam did. ...

...So forgivenss is something that I seek when I realize I have errored and strayed from my heart's desire to follow Christ in perfect submission to God...
GraceSeeker, thank you for your reply to my questions that perhaps were better suited for another thread.

I picked up on a few things in your reply from my Muslim perspective that you perhaps see differently. I see a distinction between Jesus (as) and God with a subservient relationship of Jesus (as) to the Father. The answer to the thread question, "Do Christians worship God (not Jesus)?" in your reply seems to be, "Yes, Christians desire to serve (& worship) God (the Father) and strive to live in total submission to the Father (God) like Christ did." However, this statement seems to contradict the Christian doctrine that Jesus (as) and God (the Father) are of one and the same substance with the worship of Jesus (as) being equivalent to worshiping God.
 
GraceSeeker, thank you for your reply to my questions that perhaps were better suited for another thread.

I picked up on a few things in your reply from my Muslim perspective that you perhaps see differently. I see a distinction between Jesus (as) and God with a subservient relationship of Jesus (as) to the Father. The answer to the thread question, "Do Christians worship God (not Jesus)?" in your reply seems to be, "Yes, Christians desire to serve (& worship) God (the Father) and strive to live in total submission to the Father (God) like Christ did." However, this statement seems to contradict the Christian doctrine that Jesus (as) and God (the Father) are of one and the same substance with the worship of Jesus (as) being equivalent to worshiping God.

I can understand why you would come to that conclusion, but Christian doctrine also sees Christ as the perfect example to follow for a human being. Yes, God and Christ are of the same substance. God among us. However, Christ was also of the flesh. In that role, Christ represented the perfect human relationship with the Almighty. The perfect "role model", so to speak. The fact that Christ showed us how we are meant to worship God doesn't mean His example contradicts His divine nature. His perfect example is a result of His divine nature.
 
However, Christ was also of the flesh. In that role, Christ represented the perfect human relationship with the Almighty. The perfect "role model", so to speak.
I hope that you see also in this respect that we Muslims hold Prophet Muhammad (saaws) in the same light as the perfect "role model" hence our desire to closely follow his Sunnah for how to worship Allah and how to otherwise live our lives.
The fact that Christ showed us how we are meant to worship God doesn't mean His example contradicts His divine nature. His perfect example is a result of His divine nature.
This is of course where we differ. From my perspective, the focus in Christianity is less on the life example and teachings of Jesus (as) and more on his Divine nature and his ultimate redeeming sacrifice. Hence, I come full circle and say that Christians do worship Jesus, whom they equate with God. However, also from my perspective, the Lord's Prayer is in a nutshell the example that Jesus taught for how to worship God - the Father.

Matthew 6:9-13 9 After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil [one.]

The focus here is clearly upon the Father.
 
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I'll just affirm Keltoi's basic response and move on to your following comments.

I hope that you see also in this respect that we Muslims hold Prophet Muhammad (saaws) in the same light as the perfect "role model" hence our desire to closely follow his Sunnah for how to worship Allah and how to otherwise live our lives.
Yes, I see this, but it is also something I have never really understood. The part of it that I don't understand is that on the one hand Muslims recognize that there are no perfect human beings, that Muhammad (pbuh) was a human being, and yet there is this view that Muhammad (and for that matter all of the prophets) were perfect with regard to their Sunnah. I don't get how those two views can be held at the same time? The type of perfection I'm talking about isn't about mistakenly thinking the earth is flat when it is really round, the perfection I'm talking about is the quality of one's walk with God. Either we are perfectly righteous or we are not.

If there are no perfect human beings, then Muhammad wasn't perfect. If Muhammad and the other prophets were perfect, then the statement that there are no perfect human beings doesn't seem like something that Muslims should be affirming.



This is of course where we differ. From my perspective, the focus in Christianity is less on the life example and teachings of Jesus (as) and more on his Divine nature and his ultimate redeeming sacrifice.
Yes. But just because we focus less on point A than point B, doesn't mean that we think point A isn't important.

Hence, I come full circle and say that Christians do worship Jesus, whom they equate with God. However, also from my perspective, the Lord's Prayer is in a nutshell the example that Jesus taught for how to worship God - the Father.

Matthew 6:9-13 9 After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil [one.]

The focus here is clearly upon the Father.
Do you believe that Jesus actually taught this prayer?
 
Yes, I see this, but it is also something I have never really understood. The part of it that I don't understand is that on the one hand Muslims recognize that there are no perfect human beings, that Muhammad (pbuh) was a human being, and yet there is this view that Muhammad (and for that matter all of the prophets) were perfect with regard to their Sunnah. I don't get how those two views can be held at the same time? The type of perfection I'm talking about isn't about mistakenly thinking the earth is flat when it is really round, the perfection I'm talking about is the quality of one's walk with God. Either we are perfectly righteous or we are not.
Yes, I understand your point about perfection. While I admit that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) was not perfect as in never making a mistake, my belief is that his example for how to worship Allah (swt) was the perfect example that we have been instructed to follow. Qur'an 3:31 Tell the people O Muhammad: "If you sincerely love Allah, then follow me; Allah will also love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." and Qur'an 7:158 O Muhammad, say: "O mankind! I am the Rasool of Allah towards all of you from He to whom belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity but Him. He brings to life and causes to die. Therefore, believe in Allah and His Rasool, the unlettered Prophet (Muhammad) who believes in Allah and His Word. Follow him so that you may be rightly guided."
If there are no perfect human beings, then Muhammad wasn't perfect. If Muhammad and the other prophets were perfect, then the statement that there are no perfect human beings doesn't seem like something that Muslims should be affirming.
I am not sure that I understand you here.
Do you believe that Jesus actually taught this prayer?
I have no reason to disbelieve it as it does not contradict my beliefs.
 
What does Rasool mean?


I have no reason to disbelieve it as it does not contradict my beliefs.
Doesn't it contradict the Islamic belief that God is not a Father?

I refer to a post by another:
So whoever quotes the said corrupt verses as true words of Jesus, he or she must be committing shirk and kufr in that Allah has clearly said in the Quran that He is not father to any, nor has He any parent.
 
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What does Rasool mean?
Rasool=Messenger, Nabi=Prophet, Abd=Slave/Servant.
Doesn't it contradict the Islamic belief that God is not a Father?
Yes, in the strict, biological sense of the word, Father is inappropriate because we both know that Allah did not biologically sire Jesus. Islam strongly attests to the fact that Allah has no ancestors or descendants. However, in the NT Jesus is quoted (perhaps misquoted?) as referring to God as his, as well as his disciples', Father. I accept the use of the term only because in the NT that is what Jesus was quoted in referring to God. This fact distinguishes the Father from the "Son", hence in my communications with Christians I equate "the Father" with Allah - the One Divine Entity that Jesus prayed to and worshiped.

My Muslim brothers and sisters object to the use of the term because it implies having offspring, but I see the term in this case as one of respect for one in a much higher position of authority. How do Catholics address their priest when they come for confession? Isn't it something like, “Bless/Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned. It has been __weeks/months/years since my last Confession.” ?
 
My Muslim brothers and sisters object to the use of the term because it implies having offspring, but I see the term in this case as one of respect for one in a much higher position of authority. How do Catholics address their priest when they come for confession? Isn't it something like, “Bless/Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned. It has been __weeks/months/years since my last Confession.” ?


Yes, Catholics use the term as you say. And I certainly have no objection to anyone wishing to speak of God as Father. Jesus was not unique among Jews of his day in using the term. Which I think is interesting, for if those strict monotheistic Jews could use the term "Father" when referring to God, it is clear that the Christian usage of it (taken directly from Jesus' usage) does not necessarily imply associating partners with God either.

But the reason for me asking if you believe Jesus actually taught this prayer has more to do with how one determines what to accept and what to discard in the Bible. For instance see the latest discussion I've had with Suffiyan (above) in which he quotes from the bible to prove that Jesus prophecied about Muhammad's future coming. It works only if one cherry picks not just what verses, but which part of those verses, one is willing to accept at authentic.

And if you accept that Jesus did indeed use the terminology reflected in this prayer to refer to God as Father and taught his disciples to do the same, then, since Jesus was a true prophet of Islam (according to Islamic teaching), and this is something that you recognize that Jesus actually taught, what would be objectionable to any individual (not just Christians, but especially Christians) continuing to use such terminology today?
 
Yes, Catholics use the term as you say. And I certainly have no objection to anyone wishing to speak of God as Father. Jesus was not unique among Jews of his day in using the term. Which I think is interesting, for if those strict monotheistic Jews could use the term "Father" when referring to God, it is clear that the Christian usage of it (taken directly from Jesus' usage) does not necessarily imply associating partners with God either.
Nor, does it necessarily imply having a son or a daughter either.
And if you accept that Jesus did indeed use the terminology reflected in this prayer to refer to God as Father and taught his disciples to do the same,
I don't necessarily accept that it is true that he did, nor do I reject it as false that he did not, actually use the Aramaic word for "father" in the biological sense when he referenced God. What I said was, "...in the NT Jesus is quoted (perhaps misquoted?) as referring to God as his Father..." This is different from me believing that he actually used that word.
then, since Jesus was a true prophet of Islam (according to Islamic teaching), and this is something that you recognize that Jesus actually taught, what would be objectionable to any individual (not just Christians, but especially Christians) continuing to use such terminology today?
As stated earlier, I don't necessarily accept that Jesus taught the use of Father in reference to God - but I believe that he could have as a term of repect. What is objectionable is the use of the term in combination with "the Son" and the "Holy Spirit" which by default implies a relationship between the three - hence ascribing partners to Allah, Who I earlier equated with "the Father".
 

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