Do I have to have my male children circumcised?

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Assalam Alekum Respected Brother Kabeer.
...
Walaikum Salam dearest Endy,
I dont really wish to derail this thread by changing the topic. I do not disagree about obedience to the Prophet. What I was disagreeing upon was semantics. "Allah has told us in X"

Jεώel oғ ωïѕdoм;1461230 said:


As'Salaam Alaaykum

Am I not grateful that one has corrected me? I am grateful to you for correcting a mistake of mine.

or is it better to continue in blaming one of a mistake, that he has realised due to correction?

jazakallaahu Khaayr.
Please accept my apologies if my tone offended you. I had assumed you did not accept the correction and were pointing at me (i cant see most of the first pageof this thread due to a wierd error by the op, so i have probably missed something). It is my own fault that I am a little short with people these days due to my own issues. Again, apologies, and a peace offering: http://terrybreathinggrace.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/chocolate-mousse-cake-slice1.jpg
Peace
 
As'Salaam Alaaykum

"Allah has told us in X"

As it was a error made by my ownself..and i sincerely apologise for that.

Please accept my apologies if my tone offended you. I had assumed you did not accept the correction and were pointing at me (i cant see most of the first pageof this thread due to a wierd error by the op, so i have probably missed something). It is my own fault that I am a little short with people these days due to my own issues. Again, apologies, and a peace offering: http://terrybreathinggrace.files.wor...ake-slice1.jpg
Peace


Due to my mistakes also. I hope we are at peace inshaa'Allaah

jazakallaahu Khaayr.
 
This thread is pointless anyway, I think. Maybe it should all be deleted. I don't want my first post on this forum to be hostile and contentious imsad

All I can say is.. Allah (swt) does not make mistakes.. it is stated clearly in the Qur'an many times that the human body is a perfect creation. In my opinion for a human to alter the creation is blasphemy and is an insult to our Lord (swt) because it essentially is saying.. "You did it wrong.. this doctor will fix it..".

Like I say.. that's my opinion. I think that.. as long as people genuinely believe in their heart that they are doing what Allah (swt) wants, then that is good, whether you choose to circumcise your children or not.
 
wow what happened to the previous page? OP, there is an entire movement that is opposed to circumcision out there but there is NO scientific basis for it in fact there is tons of research coming out touting the benefits of circumcision especially in reducing STD's. Unless there's a bleeding diathesis or another medical condition and there are a few for instance where the foreskin is needed like for hypospadias repair.
I am not sure what you reply was on the previous page but again I can't emphasize enough that female 'circumcision' isn't Islamic in fact it dates back to czarist Russia and parts of Africa.. I posted an article on the matter written by a Muslim doctor from Harvard but can't seem to locate it with the new forum layout..

best,
 
This thread is pointless anyway, I think. Maybe it should all be deleted. I don't want my first post on this forum to be hostile and contentious imsad

All I can say is.. Allah (swt) does not make mistakes.. it is stated clearly in the Qur'an many times that the human body is a perfect creation. In my opinion for a human to alter the creation is blasphemy and is an insult to our Lord (swt) because it essentially is saying.. "You did it wrong.. this doctor will fix it..".

Like I say.. that's my opinion. I think that.. as long as people genuinely believe in their heart that they are doing what Allah (swt) wants, then that is good, whether you choose to circumcise your children or not.

As'Salaam Alaaykum

no dear sis, it is not pointless!

You came here for an answer and alhamdulilaah that is good.

I'll just let someone more knowledgeable on this topic reply to you.
 
Maybe it was censored. <Just a guess.
No it happened to me once before where the quoting system failed miserably.. I am sure a skillful mod can fix it insha'Allah..
censorship is usually asterisks over curse words..
 
τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1461243 said:
wow what happened to the previous page? OP, there is an entire movement that is opposed to circumcision out there but there is NO scientific basis for it in fact there is tons of research coming out touting the benefits of circumcision especially in reducing STD's. Unless there's a bleeding diathesis or another medical condition and there are a few for instance where the foreskin is needed like for hypospadias repair.
I am not sure what you reply was on the previous page but again I can't emphasize enough that female 'circumcision' isn't Islamic in fact it dates back to czarist Russia and parts of Africa.. I posted an article on the matter written by a Muslim doctor from Harvard but can't seem to locate it with the new forum layout..

best,

Sister, thank you for the reply but I must point out that there is huge scientific basis for it:
  • Immunological defense. The soft mucosa of the inner foreskin produces plasma cells, which secrete immunoglobulin antibodies, and antibacterial and antiviral proteins, such as the pathogen-killing enzyme called lysozyme. All of the human mucosa (the linings of the mouth, eyelids, vagina, foreskin and anus) are the body's first line of defense against disease. This benefit of the foreskin could be one possible explanation why intact men are at lower risk of chlamydia and other sexually transmitted diseases.
    Gliding action. The foreskin is the only moving part of the penis. During any sexual activity, the foreskin and glans work in unison; their mutual interaction creates a complete sexual response. During intercourse, the non-abrasive gliding of the penis in and out of itself within the vagina facilitates smooth and pleasurable intercourse for both partners. Circumcision not just involves cutting away, but stitching all around the foreskin permanently to the shaft. Thus foreskin cannot glide any more and makes the circumcised penis a static organ.
    The shaft/glans also retract inwards/outwards throughout the day in the flaccid state varying with bodily parameters. In an intact penis, the foreskin glides smoothly over the glans as necessary, excess skin gathers ahead of the glans if needed. On a circumcised penis, the cut foreskin buckle and crease against the stitched position on the shaft as it retracts, preventing the shaft/glans from retracting properly and causing discomfort. The stitched foreskin acts like a spring preventing the retraction of the penis. This push of the buckled foreskin against the joint (stitch) during retractions through out the day (as well as pull during erection) is unnatural and uncomfortable compared to an intact naturally gliding foreskin-glans combination. All circumcised males have to again, subconsciously learn to ignore the discomfort. Stinging sensations along the stitched position may be felt during adulthood.
    Proper lymph flow. The foreskin contains lymphatic vessels, which are necessary for proper lymph flow and immunological functioning.
    Langerhans cells. These specialized epithelial cells are a component of the immune system and may play a role in protecting the penis from sexually transmitted infections such as HIV (AIDS).
    Dartos Fascia. This is a smooth temperature-sensitive muscle sheath that underlies the scrotum, the entire penis and the tip of the foreskin. It is necessary for proper temperature regulation of the genitals (causing these structures to elongate in the heat and shrink in the cold). Approximately half of the Dartos Fascia is destroyed by circumcision. In circumcised males, the glans can become cold at times due to the missing temperature control mechanism (exposed glans).
    Sebaceous glands. The oils produced by these glands lubricate and moisturize the foreskin and glans, so that the two structures function together smoothly.
    Full penis length and circumference. The foreskin creates a visibly longer penis, especially when the foreskin extends beyond the head of the penis. Also, the double-layered tissue of the foreskin engorges with blood during erection and creates a visibly and sensually thicker shaft and glans. When the engorged foreskin retracts behind the coronal ridge of the glans, it often creates a wider and more pronounced "ridge" that many partners find especially stimulating during penetrative intercourse. The circumcised penis appears truncated and thinner than a full-sized intact penis.
    Risk of death from surgery. Every year in the United States alone, an estimated 100 boys die from the complications of circumcision. Worldwide the figure is much higher, a fact that the American circumcision industry ignores, obscures, or downplays.
    Risk of delayed or diminished maternal bonding. Circumcision, even if anaesthesia is used, causes unavoidable operative trauma and post-operative pain that has been shown to disrupt bonding with the mother, which in turn interferes with the first developmental task of every human, that of trust (trust in human contact, in personal safety, etc)."
    Oestrogen Receptors. The presence of estrogen receptors within the foreskin has only recently been discovered. Their purpose is not yet understood and needs further study.
    Neurological Sexual Communication. Although never studied scientifically, contemporary evidence suggests that a penis without its foreskin lacks the capacity for the subtle neurological "cross-communication" that occurs only during contact between mucous membranes and which contributes to the experience of sexual pleasure. Amputating an infant boy's multi-functional foreskin is a low-grade neurological castration"[Immerman], which diminishes the intensity of the entire sexual experience for both the circumcised male and his partner)
Ironically, you say that circumcision reduces the chance of catching an STD but the above article says "intact men are at lower risk of chlamydia and other sexually transmitted diseases".

But anyway, ignoring scientific benefits, it doesn't matter. Ultimately, there is absolutely 100% no way that I am going to alter Allah's (swt) creation.. it clearly says in the Qur'an that he created man perfect.. therefore in my eyes circumcision is blasphemy (although I respect that it is a sign of devotion. For example, if a young child is taught to steal. The child is showing loyalty to its parents, which is a good thing, but that does not mean that the act itself is a good thing. Circumcision is a sign of loyalty to Allah (swt), but it is not a good thing as it goes completely against the Qur'an).

Finally I have a fundamental, instinctive issue with circumcision. I am a nature-loving person, and I have a deep, deep issue with ritual alteration of nature and Allah's creation. Thankfully circumcised men make up only a small amount of the world's population and I hope that maybe we can keep Allah's perfect creation intact in future..

I just wonder what the wider implications of this are for intact Muslims though. Like I said in the OP, would this cause problems for my children..
 
Sister, thank you for the reply but I must point out that there is huge scientific basis for it:
  • Immunological defense. The soft mucosa of the inner foreskin produces plasma cells, which secrete immunoglobulin antibodies, and antibacterial and antiviral proteins, such as the pathogen-killing enzyme called lysozyme. All of the human mucosa (the linings of the mouth, eyelids, vagina, foreskin and anus) are the body's first line of defense against disease. This benefit of the foreskin could be one possible explanation why intact men are at lower risk of chlamydia and other sexually transmitted diseases.
    Gliding action. The foreskin is the only moving part of the penis. During any sexual activity, the foreskin and glans work in unison; their mutual interaction creates a complete sexual response. During intercourse, the non-abrasive gliding of the penis in and out of itself within the vagina facilitates smooth and pleasurable intercourse for both partners. Circumcision not just involves cutting away, but stitching all around the foreskin permanently to the shaft. Thus foreskin cannot glide any more and makes the circumcised penis a static organ.
    The shaft/glans also retract inwards/outwards throughout the day in the flaccid state varying with bodily parameters. In an intact penis, the foreskin glides smoothly over the glans as necessary, excess skin gathers ahead of the glans if needed. On a circumcised penis, the cut foreskin buckle and crease against the stitched position on the shaft as it retracts, preventing the shaft/glans from retracting properly and causing discomfort. The stitched foreskin acts like a spring preventing the retraction of the penis. This push of the buckled foreskin against the joint (stitch) during retractions through out the day (as well as pull during erection) is unnatural and uncomfortable compared to an intact naturally gliding foreskin-glans combination. All circumcised males have to again, subconsciously learn to ignore the discomfort. Stinging sensations along the stitched position may be felt during adulthood.
    Proper lymph flow. The foreskin contains lymphatic vessels, which are necessary for proper lymph flow and immunological functioning.
    Langerhans cells. These specialized epithelial cells are a component of the immune system and may play a role in protecting the penis from sexually transmitted infections such as HIV (AIDS).
    Dartos Fascia. This is a smooth temperature-sensitive muscle sheath that underlies the scrotum, the entire penis and the tip of the foreskin. It is necessary for proper temperature regulation of the genitals (causing these structures to elongate in the heat and shrink in the cold). Approximately half of the Dartos Fascia is destroyed by circumcision. In circumcised males, the glans can become cold at times due to the missing temperature control mechanism (exposed glans).
    Sebaceous glands. The oils produced by these glands lubricate and moisturize the foreskin and glans, so that the two structures function together smoothly.
    Full penis length and circumference. The foreskin creates a visibly longer penis, especially when the foreskin extends beyond the head of the penis. Also, the double-layered tissue of the foreskin engorges with blood during erection and creates a visibly and sensually thicker shaft and glans. When the engorged foreskin retracts behind the coronal ridge of the glans, it often creates a wider and more pronounced "ridge" that many partners find especially stimulating during penetrative intercourse. The circumcised penis appears truncated and thinner than a full-sized intact penis.
    Risk of death from surgery. Every year in the United States alone, an estimated 100 boys die from the complications of circumcision. Worldwide the figure is much higher, a fact that the American circumcision industry ignores, obscures, or downplays.
    Risk of delayed or diminished maternal bonding. Circumcision, even if anaesthesia is used, causes unavoidable operative trauma and post-operative pain that has been shown to disrupt bonding with the mother, which in turn interferes with the first developmental task of every human, that of trust (trust in human contact, in personal safety, etc)."
    Oestrogen Receptors. The presence of estrogen receptors within the foreskin has only recently been discovered. Their purpose is not yet understood and needs further study.
    Neurological Sexual Communication. Although never studied scientifically, contemporary evidence suggests that a penis without its foreskin lacks the capacity for the subtle neurological "cross-communication" that occurs only during contact between mucous membranes and which contributes to the experience of sexual pleasure. Amputating an infant boy's multi-functional foreskin is a low-grade neurological castration"[Immerman], which diminishes the intensity of the entire sexual experience for both the circumcised male and his partner)
Ironically, you say that circumcision reduces the chance of catching an STD but the above article says "intact men are at lower risk of chlamydia and other sexually transmitted diseases".

But anyway, ignoring scientific benefits, it doesn't matter. Ultimately, there is absolutely 100% no way that I am going to alter Allah's (swt) creation.. it clearly says in the Qur'an that he created man perfect.. therefore in my eyes circumcision is blasphemy (although I respect that it is a sign of devotion. For example, if a young child is taught to steal. The child is showing loyalty to its parents, which is a good thing, but that does not mean that the act itself is a good thing. Circumcision is a sign of loyalty to Allah (swt), but it is not a good thing as it goes completely against the Qur'an).

Finally I have a fundamental, instinctive issue with circumcision. I am a nature-loving person, and I have a deep, deep issue with ritual alteration of nature and Allah's creation. Thankfully circumcised men make up only a small amount of the world's population and I hope that maybe we can keep Allah's perfect creation intact in future..

I just wonder what the wider implications of this are for intact Muslims though. Like I said in the OP, would this cause problems for my children..

From what esteemed medical journal did you extract this from? Quranicpath is a Quran only site I can't fault you for being unable to distinguish what is right from wrong given that you're a new convert. But neither the science nor the religion of what you quote is accurate!

best
 
τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1461253 said:
Ironically, you say that circumcision reduces the chance of catching an STD but the above article says "intact men are at lower risk of chlamydia and other sexually transmitted diseases".

Just to assert my point with one of the things you've written above:
Circumcision Decision: Weighing the Risks and Benefits

Male circumcision reduces HIV, cervical cancer, syphilis, and chlamydia. Is it time to reconsider its merits?
By Arthur Allen
WebMD Feature
Reviewed by Sheldon Marks, MD
http://men.webmd.com/guide/circumcision-decision-weighing-risks-benefits


Now, the topic has been discussed here ad naueam if only the search feature were working properly since I personally feel you're owed proper information but can't personally while fasting expend the effort to search for each and every one.. I'd take WebMD over what you quoted and I personally don't subscribe to internet sources to justify my clinical decisions but for the purposes of this forum some third party sources are more credible than others..

best,
 
this is also an addendum to my two previous posts on the subject of female circumcision.
With regard to the issue at hand, it's been agreed that female gential mutilation, or what Br. Kadafi pointed out to be Pharaonic circumcision, is unlawful and has no basis in Islam. Indeed, this is a terrible practice. The difference of opinion only exists with regard to a mild form of female circumcision, which many scholars believe to be voluntary (sunnah).

Scholars have either said it is preferable to do it, or they have said it is preferable to avoid it. What Islam does teach us is that causing harm and suffering to others is forbidden. The most balanced and agreed upon view with regard to female circumcision is as mentioned by the IslamToday Fatwa committee:
Since the hadîth is weak to begin with, and since most people really do not know how to practice circumcision correctly, female circumcision should be avoided. (See here (Female Circumcision) for complete Fatwa.)​
I hope this helps, and I hope the discussion will proceed in a manner befitting of muslims.

:w:
http://www.islamicboard.com/miscellaneous/6519-female-circumcision-3.html
 
But anyway, ignoring scientific benefits, it doesn't matter. Ultimately, there is absolutely 100% no way that I am going to alter Allah's (swt) creation.. it clearly says in the Qur'an that he created man perfect.. therefore in my eyes circumcision is blasphemy (although I respect that it is a sign of devotion. For example, if a young child is taught to steal. The child is showing loyalty to its parents, which is a good thing, but that does not mean that the act itself is a good thing. Circumcision is a sign of loyalty to Allah (swt), but it is not a good thing as it goes completely against the Qur'an).

Finally I have a fundamental, instinctive issue with circumcision. I am a nature-loving person, and I have a deep, deep issue with ritual alteration of nature and Allah's creation. Thankfully circumcised men make up only a small amount of the world's population and I hope that maybe we can keep Allah's perfect creation intact in future..

I just wonder what the wider implications of this are for intact Muslims though. Like I said in the OP, would this cause problems for my children..

'Blasphemy'? Do you have any idea of what you're saying? What you've just said is the definition blasphemy, you've accused prophets of going against Qur'an - hence going against God. Don't speak about matters which you have no knowledge of and don't interpret verses of the Qur'an yourself. Almost every muslim man on earth is circumcised that's 1 billion people, not really a small amount. We are born perfect but we need to be maintained, we have to shave pubic hair, he have to cut our nails etc etc, foreskins are just part of human waste that need to be gotten rid of.

Why don't you look Islamic sources on the matter rather than speaking from your own emotional made up views?

And yes this will cause problems for your children, can you imagine their wives seeing their dirty uncircumcised privates? they'd be shocked
 
Last edited:
Islamic sources
The OP is a new convert and unfortunately is probably not aware what an Islamic site is from a deviant one, obviously the one s/he quoted isn't only not scientifically sound as I have demonstrated in the previous page but also a deviant site of the Quran only sect.. It can be difficult to sort through the crap when you're just starting out. I do like to give the benefit of the doubt once for some and three times for others but no more..

:w:
 
τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1461265 said:

The OP is a new convert and unfortunately is probably not aware what an Islamic site is from a deviant one, obviously the one s/he quoted isn't only not scientifically sound as I have demonstrated in the previous page but also a deviant site of the Quran only sect.. It can be difficult to sort through the crap when you're just starting out. I do like to give the benefit of the doubt once for some and three times for others but no more..

:w:

I had a feeling he must have come across crap from the Qur'an only sect

To the OP please stay away from Quranist websites - they are deviant and are not considered muslim because they reject the hadith and sayings of the prophet Muhammad - which is stupid because the Qur'an cannot alone tell them how to pray and how to do many other things - this is why we look the hadith.
 
We are born perfect but we need to be maintained

There is a big difference between maintenance and alteration.

The Qur'an clearly states that Allah (swt) made humans perfect.

If you say that a circumcised penis is better than a natural one, you are blaspheming as you are saying that a human has improved upon Allah's (swt) creation.

You can call it "deviancy" all you want, you can insult me all you want, maybe I am not welcome on this website, it doesn't make a difference to me. I follow Islam in my heart, it matters not to me what you think, and I pray to Allah (swt) that I make the right decision in keeping my children intact and natural as Allah (swt) created.
 
There is a big difference between maintenance and alteration.

The Qur'an clearly states that Allah (swt) made humans perfect.

If you say that a circumcised penis is better than a natural one, you are blaspheming as you are saying that a human has improved upon Allah's (swt) creation.

You can call it "deviancy" all you want, you can insult me all you want, maybe I am not welcome on this website, it doesn't make a difference to me. I follow Islam in my heart, it matters not to me what you think, and I pray to Allah (swt) that I make the right decision in keeping my children intact and natural as Allah (swt) created.

Allaah (Exalted is He) says:Do not act or give judgments in the Deen without knowledge. On the Day of Judgment one’s ears, eyes, and heart will be asked about their deeds

now, you haven't been able to pick sites that are either religiously or scientifically sound to jump to the very weighty 'blaspheme' we are always learning, and sometimes we learn things that don't appeal to our personal prejudices. If you feel that is sufficient reason to leave the site then no one will stop you but I'd recommend that you stay in a learn all you can rather than leave with an I have all the answers... one for your own sake..

:w:
 
There is a big difference between maintenance and alteration.

The Qur'an clearly states that Allah (swt) made humans perfect.

If you say that a circumcised penis is better than a natural one, you are blaspheming as you are saying that a human has improved upon Allah's (swt) creation.

You can call it "deviancy" all you want, you can insult me all you want, maybe I am not welcome on this website, it doesn't make a difference to me. I follow Islam in my heart, it matters not to me what you think, and I pray to Allah (swt) that I make the right decision in keeping my children intact and natural as Allah (swt) created.

As'Salaam Alaaykum

You are right, there is indeed a big difference between maintenance and alteration..But the case of alteration isnt being talked about..

I know of cases with individuals with a nose which is slightly bent, due to this, they could not breath and a few other medical issues, so they had to get surgery performed, but if the person didnt have any problems, but changed the state of his nose for the sake of beautification, that would be classified as 'alteration'..which i believe is unnacceptable.

You are also correct, it doesnt matter to you what we or anyone thinks, what matters is what Allaah thinks, at the end of the day its the opinion of Allaah. Thats why we as muslims should refrain from posting up information which we have no knowledge of, or our own opinions or mis-interpret Qur'aanic ayahs. etc..
 
τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1461273 said:
you haven't been able to pick sites that are either religiously or scientifically sound

Says who?

Just because something is not mainstream does not affect whether it is correct or not.
 

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